When a religion is founded on confusion, then we are certain that such religion cannot be depended to be any close to being right guidiance, take for example the case of the shia, a deciation from the truth and a covenant to ignorance and confusion. the Immamah constitutes the source of secatrianism within the shias and more pathetic than being confused is that fundamental to making heaven is the belief that you must follow the "right" Imam, of course what the right Imam means became the source of new sects at every point in death of a previous Imam. Read on and experience the Truth unfolding:

The First Ten Imams

The cornerstone of the Shia faith is the belief that the spiritual and temporal leadership of this Ummah after the demise of the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) is vested in the Imam, who is appointed, like the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) himself, by Allah, and who enjoys all the distinctions and privileges of a Prophet. (In fact, the Shia regard their Imams as superior to all of the Prophets aside from Prophet Muhammad [صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم])

However, the Shia believe that Imamah, unlike Prophethood, can never come to an end. In this regard there is a well-known Shia hadith which says that “the world cannot exist without an Imam,” and another which says: ”if the earth were to be without an Imam for a single day, it would sink.”

Thus, when it came to pass that the first of those whom they regard as their Imams (Ali [رضّى الله عنه]) left this world, a problem arose. Some of those who regarded themselves as his followers claimed that he did not in fact die, but that he was in occultation and would return to establish justice. Others said that he was succeeded as Imam by his son Hasan (رضّى الله عنه), who was in turn succeeded by his brother Hussain (رضّى الله عنه).

When Hussain (رضّى الله عنه) died, there were some who claimed to follow his other brother Muhammad (known as Ibn al-Hanafiyyah) as their Imam. When he died, his followers claimed that he was in reality alive, in occultation, and that he will return in due time. Others amongst the Shia took Hussain’s son, Ali, surnamed Zayn al-Abidin, as their Imam, and upon his death transferred their loyalties to his son, Muhammad al-Baqir.

When al-Baqir died, there were once again elements from amongst the Shia who denied his death and claimed that he would return one day, while others took his son Jafar as-Sadiq as their Imam.

When he died, there was mass confusion amongst the Shia: each of his sons (Ismail, Abdullah, Muhammad, Zakariyya, Ishaq and Musa) were claimed by various groups amongst the Shia to be their Imam. In addition to them, there was a group who believed that Jafar did not really die, and that he would return one day.

More or less the same thing happened at the death of his son Musa. Some of the Shia denied his death, believing that he will return, and others decided to take as their new Imam one of his sons. Some of these chose his son Ahmad, while others chose his other son Ali ar-Rida.

After him, they took as their Imam his son Muhammad al-Jawwad (or at-Taqi), and after him his son Ali al-Hadi (or an-Naqi). At the death of Ali al-Hadi, they looked upon his son Hasan al-Askari as their new–and 11th–Imam.

In Shia belief, it is Kufr (disbelief) to falsely ascribe Imamah to an individual who is not really the Imam. As such, each Shia sect looks down upon the other Shia sects as Kufaar (disbelievers) since they follow a different chain of Imamah. An unbiased outsider would no doubt find this amusing, but the Ithna Ashari Shia is adamant when he looks down on Ismailis, Aga Khanis, Bohras, Druze, and other Shia sects, unable to see the same inaneness about himself. In their own circles, the Ithna Ashari Shia scoff at Ismailis and look at them as a silly minority of heretics. Little do these same Ithna Ashari Shia realize that the vast majority of the Ummah (namely the Ahlus Sunnah) looks down upon the Ithna Ashari Shia in the same way. Shi’ism is simply a collection of heretics of every different color.

Even the way a Shia has to identify himself is reflective of the number of sects at every turn: the Shia must describe himself as not just an Ithna Ashari but rather as Ithna Ashari Imami Usooli Jaffari Shia.

Twelver Ithna Ashari Shi’ism was never the predominant sect of Shi’ism like it is today; it was as marginal as the rest of the Shia sects. The only reason that the Twelver Ithna Ashari Shia have become so predominant is simply because of the actions of one man: Shah Ismail I, ruler of the Safavid Empire. He converted to Ithna Ashari Shi’ism because he wanted to oppose the dominant Ottoman Empire which was Sunni. So Ismail I made Ithna Ashari Shi’ism the official state religion and forced the entire Persian population to convert to Shi’ism or accept the penalty of death. This was the Shia Inquisition against the Sunnis of Persia, who made up the majority of the population in Persia up until this point.

^^^^

there is a general complaint section, take you compliants there thank you.

The issue of the disbelief of the shias are as follows:

1. Only by luck can u believe in the right imam, since the point remains that there were too many claims to the imams at any given point in time hence the shias based on their beliefs be candidates of kufr since there is no agreement on which imam lineage or group is right.

2. The fact that one has to result to luck to make decision on what the right line for imam succession makes shia a doctrine of kufr.

3. Important question remains would Allah have made such a system of confusion and foolery to guide mankind? No, Allah made his message plain.

vedaxcool: The issue of the disbelief of the shias are as follows:

1. Only by luck can u believe in the right imam, since the point remains that there were too many claims to the imams at any given point in time hence the shias based on their beliefs be candidates of kufr since there is no agreement on which imam lineage or group is right.

2. The fact that one has to result to luck to make decision on what the right line for imam succession makes shia a doctrine of kufr.

3. Important question remains would Allah have made such a system of confusion and foolery to guide mankind? No, Allah made his message plain.

the $tupidity of a sunni/wahhabi is so intense that he even blames Allah The Perfect for it!

how many false prophets of God have there being? would the christians,jews or hindus also justify their disbelief in Muhammad's (sa) prophethood because there have been too many false prophets or those who to be prophets falsely? would you then claim that prophethood as Muslims believe in it is confusion? can you also say that identifying a true prophet of God is based on luck? there are hundreds of false prophets in Nigeria alone!!! isn't that confusion?and should we blame God too for that?

in your Sunni hadiths,the Prophet (sa) declares that his successors (number of imams/leaders) are 12! whether there are false claimants to imamate or not,does not vindicate the tyrants sunnis honor as "rightly guided caliphs" who ignored and disobeyed the Prophet Muhammad's (sa) declarations of Imam Ali (as) as his first successors and divinely appointed imam.

why blame the confusion of people or their misguidance or their satanic whisperings or their rebellious selves on God or on the system of imamate? can we blame God and the system when it comes to prophethood because there have been multitude of false prophets and false claimants of prophethood?can we also make the same claims on prophethood you made on imamate because christians do not believe in the prophethood of our master Muhammad (sa) and jews who do not believe both in the prophethood of Muhammad and Isa (as)? what about Prophet Yacoub (as) whose children conspired against their brother,Prophet Yusuf (as) because Allah Almighty chose Yusuf (as) as His prophet? what about Dajjal or the "anti-christ" who would claim to be Prophet Jesus (as) close to the end of time? would you blame Allah (jj) for that false claim of the dajjal and confusing people for mistaking him with Isa (as)?

if we are to blame confusion/misguidance of people on God or on the system,then you ought to admit that there is more confusion in prophethood system than in imamate.at least we know that after Muhammad (sa) there is no prophet or messenger and his successors (the imams) must be from the Ahlul-Bayt (as);imamate is from the progeny of Imam Ali (as) and Sayyida Fatima (as).

it is so obvious you do not use your head to think.you go about copying nonsense from anti-Shia or wahhabiyyah websites without thinking.

the write-ups you copied from anti-Shia websites,have long being refuted by the answering-ansar.org team

[size=14pt]"Nasibi Objection At The False Claimants of Imamate:[/size]

http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/imamate/en/chap12.php

there! there!! child!!! lest you begin to convulse due to the pathetic doctrine of foolishness hsia follow, after all your ranting and raving i hardly could make sense of what you wrote, you must be in pain being exposed to the crafty stupidity shias believe and hinge their their life upon. we dey laugh this shia logic sef, first in their doctrine being a Prophet is = to being an Imam, isn't this pathetic? how does one respond to issue in such confused manner that even bewilders the foolish? we muslims do not place Prophet on the same rank with Imam, secondly and more crucial being a prophethave never be up for inhereitance or succession, this poorly intelligent remarks by the shias about how they monarchy is bad but at the same time believe in it as an article of faith, any way we should not take this people seriously indeed! most of what he wrote is not more than repeating lies thathe has been programmed with. in any case I continue my case:

Death of the Eleventh Imam

Six years later, in 260 AH, Hasan al-Askari, at the very young age of 28, is lying on his deathbed, but unlike any of his forefathers, he leaves no offspring, no one to whom the Shia might appropriate as their new Imam.

The Shia who had been regarding Hasan al-Askari as their Imam were thrown into mass disarray. Would this mean the end of the Imamah? The end of the Imamah would mean the end of Shi’ism and the Shia were surely not ready for this.

The confusion that reigned amongst the Shia after the death of Hasan al-Askari is reflected by the Shia writer Hasan ibn Musa an-Nawbakhti (who was alive at the time), who counts the emergence of altogether fourteen sects amongst the followers of Hasan al-Askari, each one with a different view on the future of the Imamah and the identity of the next Imam. Another Shia writer, Saad ibn Abdullah al-Qummi, who also lived during the same time, counts fifteen sects, and a century later the historian al-Masudi enumerates altogether twenty separate sects.

There were four major trends amongst these various sects:

(1) There were those who accepted the death of Hasan al-Askari as a fact, and accepted also the fact that he left no offspring. To them, Imamah had thus come to an end, just like Prophethood came to an end with the death of Prophet Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم). However, there were some amongst them who kept hoping for the advent of a new Imam.

(2) The second trend was to deny the death of Hasan al-Askari, and to claim that he would return in the future to establish justice upon earth. This idea of occultation of the Imam is used by the Shia of various sects whenever it is convenient.

(3) The third trend was to extend the chain of Imamah to Hasan’s brother Jafar.

(4) The fourth trend was the claim that Hasan al-Askari did in fact have a son, but that the son went into occultation. The Ithna Ashari Shia (i.e. Twelvers) are from this group.

Multitude of Shia Sects

Throughout the history of the Shia, there have been dozens upon dozens of sects, each claiming another lineage for the Imamah. And at each turn, either the Imamah goes to a son, a brother, or if not any of these, then the Imam must have gone into occultation; at each step, there are more schisms and consquently more Shia sects. Because of this, there have been somewhere near one hundred or even more sects of Shi’ism. Today, there are dozens of existing Shia sects (Druze, Bohras, Nizaris, Zaydis, Jarudis, Sulaymanis, Butris, Ismailis, Kaysaniyyas, Qaddahiyyas, Ghullat, Aga Khanis, Usoolis, Imamis, Shaikis, Akhbaris, etc) but it should be remembered that for each sect in existence today, there are dozens more which died out. There are fiver, sixer, sevener, niner, elevener, twelver, fourteen-er Shia.

vedaxcool: there! there!! child!!! lest you begin to convulse due to the pathetic doctrine of foolishness hsia follow,

there is a blind moderator in this forum who only sees when the falsehood of wahhabism is exposed.

he doesn't see when wahhabis display their filth and rudeness towards others.'

we dey laugh this shia logic sef, first in their doctrine being a Prophet is = to being an Imam, isn't this pathetic? how does one respond to issue in such confused manner that even bewilders the foolish?

Divine Imamate Is Only From Allah!

Holy Quran 2:124
"And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you an Imam for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."


Holy Quran 21:73
"And We made them leaders, guiding (men) by Our Command and We sent them inspiration..."

we muslims do not place Prophet on the same rank with Imam,

a wahhabi claiming to be Muslim at the expense of a Shia Muslim!

secondly and more crucial being a prophethave never be up for inhereitance or succession, this poorly intelligent remarks by the shias about how they monarchy is bad but at the same time believe in it as an article of faith, any way we should not take this people seriously indeed!

"Monarchy in the Quran?"

Holy Quran 3:33-34
"Lo! Allah preferred Adam and Noah and the Family of Abraham and the Family of 'Imran above (all His) creatures.They were descendants one of another. Allah is Hearer, Knower".

[url=http://www.islamicbooks.info/H-21-Math'habs/Quran-Ahlul-6.htm]So What About the Family of Muhammad?[/url]
Holy Quran 33:33
“Verily, Allah has decreed to purify you, O' Ahlul Bayt, and sanctify you in a perfect way”

Holy Quran 42:23
"(O Prophet) tell (people) I don't ask you any wage (in return for my prophethood) except to love my near kin. And if anyone earns any good We shall give Him an increase of good (in return for it)".

Holy Quran 4:59
"O' Men of faith! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger and those vested with authority over you [from] among you; and then if you quarrel about something, refer it to Allah and the Messenger".

The Difference Between Monarchy and Those Chosen By Allah From The Quranic View
Holy Quran 27:34
"She said, "Kings indeed, when they enter a country, ravish it, and make the most honorable of its people, its most humiliated, they do indeed".

Multitude of Shia Sects

Throughout the history of the Shia, there have been dozens upon dozens of sects, each claiming another lineage for the Imamah. And at each turn, either the Imamah goes to a son, a brother, or if not any of these, then the Imam must have gone into occultation; at each step, there are more schisms and consquently more Shia sects. Because of this, there have been somewhere near one hundred or even more sects of Shi’ism.

100?! what a lie!!!and how many Sunni sects are there?-wahhabis,salafists,sufis,ahmadiyyah,shafi'e,hanbali,maliki,hanafi,ashari,e.t.c.

Today, there are dozens of existing Shia sects (Druze, Bohras, Nizaris, Zaydis, Jarudis, Sulaymanis, Butris, Ismailis, Kaysaniyyas, Qaddahiyyas, Ghullat, Aga Khanis, Usoolis, Imamis, Shaikis, Akhbaris, etc) but it should be remembered that for each sect in existence today, there are dozens more which died out. There are fiver, sixer, sevener, niner, elevener, twelver, fourteen-er Shia.

stop confusing and disgracing yourself in public showing your ignorance.start with the basics and do not bother yourself with complex things,and history that have to do with many details and explanations.they are above your ability to comprehend.

bohras and Nizaris and agh khanis are the same as Ismailis.

Usoolis,sheikhis,akhbaris are the same as Imamis.

Jarudis,Sulaymanis and Butris are Zaydis

Kaysanniyah,Qaddahiyyas,and ghulat are extinct.

as for your number game of fivers,sixers,e.t.c.,only God knows where you brought that from.

Druze do not regard themselves as Muslims in the first place.

====================

to cut things short,there are three groups which are related to Shia Islam.

1.) whenever you hear someone call himself a Shia,that person is automatically a follower of the 12 Imams (as).he is also referred to as a Ja'fari,Imami,Ithna-Ashari (twelver).depending on how a Shia get answers to questions or issues of jurisprudence,he can be referred to as an usooli,akhbari or sheikhi.

2.) the Zaydis.originally this group was part of the Shia.then they broke away and became an offshoot just as the ahmadiyyah are to Sunnis.but in fact the Zaydis are more tolerated by the Shia than the ahmadiyya by the sunnis.Zaydis are "fivers" meaning they followed up till the 5th imam.technically today the zaydis are not Shia because they do not believe that Imam Ali (as) was the first imam and non other after the Prophet (sa) is fit/appointed for leadership.

3.) the ismailis are seveners.and they deviated from the shariah and Quran presently.they stopped at the 6th Imam and then held the view that his oldest son who was dead is their imam.and the fact is you cannot have a dead imam as successor of the Prophet (sa).to the Shia,the younger brother was appointed by the 6th Imam (as) and the previous Imams up to the Prophet (sa) to be the 7th imam.

as you can see,the word "Shia" presently refers to only the first group and those who follow all the Imams up to the 12th.all other offshoots are on their own standing or currently getting closer to the Shia orbecoming Shia again.

Summing up the foolishness and heresies in the Immamah

1. Following the wrong Imam will lead to hell yet only by chance can one follow the right imam, meaning what sort of guidince do this people, nowhere in the entire of Qur'an is even a single name of any of the so called imams be found, leaving it to merely guess work for the followers to go on the right path, just like the death of the second imam, Hasan lead the shias to abandon this line and jump to his brothers line, on whose authority? they just felt like following Hussayn rather than Hassan's son.

2. The imam became a great source of division, the death of one Imam brought new problem and more sects, again showing that the Immamah served the source of great confusion, generation after generations continued to differ on a very "important" aspect of religion, hence no sensible person can attribute such confusion to Allah, again no names in the Qur'an, no names given by the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, nothing just endless streams of claimants to the trone whom people followed if they like.]


3. their lies are further puncture by

“Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is he who is the most righteous of you.” (Quran, 49:13)

Allah does not grant peity by blood, rather peity is strived for and attained by maintaining decent conduct etc

The Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) declared that people were born inherently equal “except by piety and good action (Taqwa). Indeed the best among you is the one with the best character (Taqwa). Listen to me. Did I convey this to you properly?…Each one of you who is here must convey this to everyone not present.”

this totally destroys the lie of the immamah, that is the prophet says the best amongst you is the one who is pious, he never said his descendants are the best amongst you rather he maintains the egalitarian spirit that Islam brought that is re affairming the common roots all of humanity share.


furthermore

The Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) said:

“There are indeed people who boast of their dead ancestors; but in the sight of Allah they are more contemptible than the black beetle that rolls a piece of dung with its nose. Behold, Allah has removed from you the arrogance of the Time of Jahiliyyah (Ignorance) with its boast of ancestral glories. Man is but an Allah-fearing believer or an unfortunate sinner. All people are the children of Adam, and Adam was created out of dust.” [At-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud]

The Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) said further:

“Undoubtedly Allah has removed from you the pride of arrogance of the age of Jahiliyah (ignorance) and the glorification of ancestors. Now people are of two kinds. Either believers who are aware or transgressors who do wrong. You are all the children of Adam and Adam was made of clay… If they do not give this up (i.e. pride in ancestors) Allah will consider them lower than the lowly worm which pushes itself through Khara (dung).” [Abu Dawud and Tirmidhi]

We wonder what theholy prophet meant by the above, that his discendants are above others? well the truth is plain to see, he reaffirms that all including his grand children etc are not better than others because they are his descendants rather he preaches all must be pious and are equal in the presence of Allah! nowhere did he advocate for his descendants to be kings or imams

vedaxcool: Summing up the foolishness and heresies in the Immamah

Vedaxcool is insulting ( Divine Imamate) a decree of Allah (jj):

"And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you an Imam for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers." (Holy Quran 2:124)

"And We delivered him and Lot to the land which We had blessed for the worlds.And We gave him Isaac and Jacob in addition, and all [of them] We made righteous.And We made them Imams guiding by Our command. And We inspired to them the doing of good deeds, establishment of prayer, and giving of zakah; and they were worshippers of Us".(Holy Quran 21:71-73)

"And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications." (Holy Quran 32:24)

Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah Summing up the foolishness of the heretic immamah

Zhul fiqah alias lagoshia is lying on Alllah, may Allah guide him from the falsehood called shaism (division) amin

vedaxcool: Zhul fiqah alias lagoshia is lying on Alllah, may Allah guide him from the falsehood called shaism (division) amin

LOL

Holy Quran 37:83
"And most surely Abraham was among the Shia of him (i.e., Noah)"

it seems like prophets of Allah (swt) loved what Vedaxcool calls "division"!!!

Readings on the word "Shia" in Islam and the Quran and is it allowed to be part of the "Shia of Ali (as)"?:

"The Term "Shia" in Quran and Hadith":
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter1b/13.html

"Is Being a Member of a Party ("shia" ) Forbidden in Islam?":
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter1b/12.html

“…and be not amongst those who join gods with Allah, those who split up their Religion, and become shias (sects) - each party rejoicing in that which is with itself.” (Quran, 30:31-32)

“Muneebeena ilayhi waittaqoohu waaqeemoo alssalata wala takoonoo mina almushrikeena. Mina allatheena farraqoo deenahum wakanoo shia an kullu hizbin bima ladayhim farihoona”

the Jokes always on the nasibis who even ignore their idols own command who calls for their slaughter read:

The transliteration of the Arabic reads:



In the Nahjul Balagha, one of the most revered books of the Shia, Ali (رضّى الله عنه) said in Sermon 126:

“With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority of Muslims because Allah’s hand of protection is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is a prey to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is a prey to the wolf. Beware! Whoever calls to this course [of sectarianism], kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine.”

Vedaxcool,

can you tell us where the name "Sunni" or what is known in arabic as "Ahlus-Sunnah Wal-Jama'ah" came from? who gave you that name? why do you answer to that sectarian name?

vedaxcool: “…and be not amongst those who join gods with Allah, those who split up their Religion, and become shias (sects) - each party rejoicing in that which is with itself.” (Quran, 30:31-32)

“Muneebeena ilayhi waittaqoohu waaqeemoo alssalata wala takoonoo mina almushrikeena. Mina allatheena farraqoo deenahum wakanoo shia an kullu hizbin bima ladayhim farihoona”

read the links i earlier presented.you will understand that in the Quran the word "shia" is used positively and negatively depending on the context.if you follow what Allah (swt) says,then you are a good shia of His chosen messengers,prophets and imams.if you follow not what He says,and you obey shaitan,then you are a shia of Iblis.

the Jokes always on the nasibis who even ignore their idols own command who calls for their slaughter read:

Imam Ali (as) was a caliph of Muslims.he can give orders to fight,kill and declare jihad.he was an head of state.he was not one of your pseudo-scholars of the wahhabiyyah who pass takfir like playing a game.

The transliteration of the Arabic reads:



In the Nahjul Balagha, one of the most revered books of the Shia, Ali (رضّى الله عنه) said in Sermon 126:

“With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority of Muslims because Allah’s hand of protection is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is a prey to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is a prey to the wolf. Beware! Whoever calls to this course [of sectarianism], kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine.”

those who loved him too much are those who worship him and believe he was a deity.Imam Ali (as) himself confronted those people.

those who hated him are the kharijites who disobeyed him and went against him.

LagosShia:
read the links i earlier presented.you will understand that in the Quran the word "shia" is used positively and negatively depending on the context.if you follow what Allah (swt) says,then you are a good shia of His chosen messengers,prophets and imams.if you follow not what He says,and you obey shaitan,then you are a shia of Iblis.

If i were you I will follow Allah advise,Allah calls the believers Muslims, the shias call themselves dividers and rejoice over their splitting of religion! now he will argue with the Qur'an because even his idols ( whom we send lanat upon) Khomini claims the Qur'an was altered, being a muslim not a shia, i take the words of the Qur'an as the unaltered word of ALlah and complete, hence I do not look being called shia of anybody except Mumin, muslim!

LagosShia:
Imam Ali (as) was a caliph of Muslims.he can give orders to fight,kill and declare jihad.he was an head of state.he was not one of your pseudo-scholars of the wahhabiyyah who pass takfir like playing a game.

let me show you what you idol you call upon calls to be done to you "kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine" this is what i meant, he calls for your death even if you pretend to follow him, and this is premised on wanting to divide the ummah!

LagosShia:
those who loved him too much are those who worship him and believe he was a deity.Imam Ali (as) himself confronted those people.

those who hated him are the kharijites who disobeyed him and went against him.

Those who worship him are those who say Ya Ali madad, unless you mean all the crap you hinge your belief called the immamah is just crap, that even not believing in it has no implication and is not a fundamental of religion, I remember Allah alone do we worship and Allah alone do we call for Help! the mum in who follow the sunnah of the Prophet and their doctrine remains the majority of what the ummah believes in and this has always been the case of Ummah even during the time of Ali! the heresies of shias developed long after his death!

vedaxcool:

If i were you I will follow Allah advise,Allah calls the believers Muslims, the shias call themselves dividers and rejoice over their splitting of religion! now he will argue with the Qur'an because even his idols ( whom we send lanat upon) Khomini claims the Qur'an was altered, being a muslim not a shia, i take the words of the Qur'an as the unaltered word of ALlah and complete, hence I do not look being called shia of anybody except Mumin, muslim!



let me show you what you idol you call upon calls to be done to you "kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine" this is what i meant, he calls for your death even if you pretend to follow him, and this is premised on wanting to divide the ummah!





Those who worship him are those who say Ya Ali madad, unless you mean all the crap you hinge your belief called the immamah is just crap, that even not believing in it has no implication and is not a fundamental of religion, I remember Allah alone do we worship and Allah alone do we call for Help! the mum in who follow the sunnah of the Prophet and their doctrine remains the majority of what the ummah believes in and this has always been the case of Ummah even during the time of Ali! the heresies of shias developed long after his death!

Vedaxcool,

you are either a child or a fool.i wanted to read your post but i stopped where you referred to Ayatollah Khomeini as an idol and where you lied he claimed the Quran had being altered.

if you are serious about engaging in discussion with others,you do not tell others what they believe even after i have rejected those beliefs.if you do such,then those are what you say and not what i say.we have discussed tawassul numerous times.yet whenever you are on one topic and you are shown the truth or questioned,you bring an topic up to "score points".

you should learn how to debate.you always sound like someone biting his flesh when replying.you are free to believe whatever you like about Shia Muslims.if you want to know what and who i am,you can always come and ask me and i will inform you.

LagosShia:


Vedaxcool,

you are either a child or a fool.i wanted to read your post but i stopped where you referred to Ayatollah Khomeini as an idol and where you lied he claimed the Quran had being altered.

if you are serious about engaging in discussion with others,you do not tell others what they believe even after i have rejected those beliefs.if you do such,then those are what you say and not what i say.we have discussed tawassul numerous times.yet whenever you are on one topic and you are shown the truth or questioned,you bring an topic up to "score points".

you should learn how to debate.you always sound like someone biting his flesh when replying.you are free to believe whatever you like about Shia Muslims.if you want to know what and who i am,you can always come and ask me and i will inform you.

You did what any shia will do in your situation, that is throw insults and avoid the issues! Good move, only that you should quit when you had the opportunity not now that the lies of Shiasm (division) has been exposed, the only fools* I know are those who prefer being called shais to muslims, despite Allahs' warning on such preference, the only fools* I know are those who neglect their idols statement on deluding themselves on their falsehood who in addition demands the death of those who pretend to be under the head band of his and create division. We will keep telling you idol worship is not acceptable in Islam, just the same way Christians claim they do not worship idols is what you shias pretend see your words on khomini charge against the Qur'an and how you were forced to abandon your tactless thread! https://www.nairaland.com/953027/23rd-anniversary-demise-ayatullah-khomeini#11050012

vedaxcool:

You did what any shia will do in your situation, that is throw insults and avoid the issues! Good move, only that you should quit when you had the opportunity not now that the lies of Shiasm (division) has been exposed, the only fools* I know are those who prefer being called shais to muslims, despite Allahs' warning on such preference, the only fools* I know are those who neglect their idols statement on deluding themselves on their falsehood who in addition demands the death of those who pretend to be under the head band of his and create division. We will keep telling you idol worship is not acceptable in Islam, just the same way Christians claim they do not worship idols is what you shias pretend see your words on khomini charge against the Qur'an and how you were forced to abandon your tactless thread! https://www.nairaland.com/953027/23rd-anniversary-demise-ayatullah-khomeini#11050012

ok

Thread continues


The Great Dilemma
Let’s pretend that I became convinced that we need to follow Infallible Imams and I wanted to convert to Shi’ism. Now, as a potential convert to Shi’ism, every sect of Shi’ism is telling me that I must follow their set of Infallible Imams. There are at least 70 different sects of Shi’ism, each following their own lineage for their Imams. There are the Druze, Bohras, Nizaris, Zaydis, Jarudis, Sulaymanis, Butris, Ismailis, Kaysaniyyas, Qaddahiyyas, Ghullat, Aga Khanis, etc. Even amongst the Ithna Ashari Shia, there are many different sects, including the Usulis, Akhbaris, and Shaykis. All in all, there are dozens upon dozens of Shia sects, each with their own lineage of Imams.

As a Seeker of Truth, how do I know which of these lineages is correct? This is a monumental decision. According to the Shia belief system, ascribing false Imamah to a person is Kufr (disbelief). Hence, if I pick the wrong lineage to follow, then I become a Kaffir (disbeliever) destined for Hell-Fire. So I have to be very careful when I pick which of these sects I want to follow and which of the Imams is the right one. Each of these sects has their own set of Hadith which show that their set of Imams is the correct one. Some of these sects have very divergent beliefs, but there are also many sects which are virtually identical with the exception of following a different Imam, or branching the lineage at a different place [i.e. taking a second son as the Imam instead of the third, etc].

Please tell me how I am supposed to proceed to find the true path? I wish I could go to the Quran for answers, since Allah has called it the book of ultimate guidance. Unfortunately, the Quran does not mention the names of any Imams, which is weird, because wouldn’t that be important stuff to put in a book of guidance? The Quran clearly said to follow Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) who is the messenger of Allah, and yet I can’t find a single verse about following any of these Imams, let alone with their names mentioned.

So now I’m forced to look at the “Hadith” from the various sects. Each of them have their own Hadith and each of them declare the other sect deviant for following the wrong Imam and false Hadith. I’m so confused! How exactly am I supposed to scientifically determine which Hadith is the authentic one and which is fabricated? Does Allah really expect me to do this?


I know that Ithna Asharis are the most populous Shia group right now. But some quick research showed me that this was only a recent phenomena: Shah Ismail I came to power during the Safavid Empire and he just happened to convert to the Ithna Ashari sect, and then he forced all the Persians to convert to it by the penalty of death. Before that, there were other Shia sects which were more influential. If I had lived in the Fatimid Empire (which was Ismaili Shia), then it would have been Ismailism which was the majority for the Shia. The point is that we can’t simply follow the Ithna Ashari sect because it is the largest, namely because it wasn’t always so.

If you are part of the Ithna Ashari Imami Usooli sect, I’m betting you were probably just born that way. Had Shah Ismail I converted to a different sect of Shi’ism and followed another set of Imams, then you’d probably have been born to that sect instead. In any case, just because Ithna Ashari is the majority, does that mean I should follow it? Historically, the Shia believe that the majority of Muslims rejected the Imam and only a handful of people were loyal to him. What if the real followers of the Imam are a really small and obscure Shia sect? How am I supposed to find them then? Which one of the dozens of Shia sects is the right group to ascribe to?

I am lost. Where can I turn to for guidance? If I want to convert to Shi’ism, then which sect should I follow and which chain of Imams is the correct one? Can the Ithna Asharis give me one reason why they chose their set of Imams as opposed to another sect’s set of Imams?

The truth of the matter is that there is absolutely no way for a person to decide which is the right set of Imams to follow, since the Imams are not mentioned in the Quran. What is mentioned in the Quran is to follow Prophet Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم), and this is what we should do. Since the belief of Imamah is absent from the Quran, we must reject it.


Religion by luck if there is ever such a thing, shiasm is what we looking at!

^

why did you refuse to answer the reply of Zhul-Fiqar on false claimants of prophethood and false prophets as there are false claimants to imamate?

Ahmadiyyah and "Quran only" sects,are offshoots of Sunnism.both have produced two false prophets after Muhammad (sa).has that rendered us confused? or is recognizing true prophets also "luck" and being Muslims believing in Muhammad (sa) also "luck"?

^^^^


Please tell me how I am supposed to proceed to find the true path? I wish I could go to the Quran for answers, since Allah has called it the book of ultimate guidance. Unfortunately, the Quran does not mention the names of any Imams, which is weird, because wouldn’t that be important stuff to put in a book of guidance? The Quran clearly said to follow Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) who is the messenger of Allah, and yet I can’t find a single verse about following any of these Imams, let alone with their names mentioned.

o now I’m forced to look at the “Hadith” from the various sects. Each of them have their own Hadith and each of them declare the other sect deviant for following the wrong Imam and false Hadith. I’m so confused! How exactly am I supposed to scientifically determine which Hadith is the authentic one and which is fabricated? Does Allah really expect me to do this?


The truth will awlays elude those who want to be blind!

vedaxcool: ^^^^


Please tell me how I am supposed to proceed to find the true path? I wish I could go to the Quran for answers, since Allah has called it the book of ultimate guidance. Unfortunately, the Quran does not mention the names of any Imams, which is weird, because wouldn’t that be important stuff to put in a book of guidance? The Quran clearly said to follow Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) who is the messenger of Allah, and yet I can’t find a single verse about following any of these Imams, let alone with their names mentioned.

o now I’m forced to look at the “Hadith” from the various sects. Each of them have their own Hadith and each of them declare the other sect deviant for following the wrong Imam and false Hadith. I’m so confused! How exactly am I supposed to scientifically determine which Hadith is the authentic one and which is fabricated? Does Allah really expect me to do this?


The truth will awlays elude those who want to be blind!

if you in search of truth,my advice to you would be the first verse of the Quran revealed to Prophet Muhammad (sa):READ!



"THE QURAN AND IMAMATE":
http://www.followislam.net/quran/quran-imamate.htm

and here is an extensive and comprehensive research:

"The Doctrine of Imamate from the Qur'an":
http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/imamate/en/chap10.php

the below is from nairaland:
""the Truth About The 12 Imams In Islam As Foretold By The Prophet Muhammad (sa)":
https://www.nairaland.com/653439/truth-12-imams-islam-foretold


now i want you to tell us in all honesty how many Sunnis (who do not believe in imamate) have come out to falsely claim they are the 12th Imam (as) ,or the Mahdi? hint:there are a number of Sunnis who have done that.so are we again rendered confused and made "lucky" to reach the truth? please educate us.

^^^^

Keep dining in your ignorance and your links of kafir, i have refuted you many times over, and the question I leave for all to see, that luck is what remains the shiasm :

1.Unfortunately, the Quran does not mention the names of any Imams, which is weird, because wouldn’t that be important stuff to put in a book of guidance?

2. every Shia group have hadiths of theirs justifying the rightness of their own path making it only by luck for anybody to make heaven!

@Vedaxcool,

you can keep talking nonsense and imaginations.does the Quran mention you should pray 2 rek'at for fajr,4 for dhuhr and asr,3 for maghrib and another 4 for isha? yes or no? if no,then the "Quran only" sect is telling you to abandon praying like that because it is not in the Quran just like the individual names of our 12 Imams (as) are not.if we are to abandon imamate,you too have to abandon salat!the imamah again is reflection of prophethood and following the imamah or successors of the Prophet (sa) is based on obeying the sunnah of the Prophet (sa).in principle the imamate is entrenched in the Quran and an Islamic doctrine.also,the imamate of Imam Ali (as),the first imam and the commencement of imamate is right there in the Quran.also obeying the 12 Imams (as) collectively is there in the Quran.search online for the Quranic verse known as "the verse of ulil-amr".blind your heart and deceive yourself to your detriment.Islam is not taught the way you like or the way christians who question the propehthood of Muhammad (sa) like by asking why things are not done in certain ways instead of he established ways.

i have so far asked you questions which you have dodged.why? no answer?these are what i have asked of you to tell us:

now i want you to tell us in all honesty how many Sunnis (who do not believe in imamate) have come out to falsely claim they are the 12th Imam (as) ,or the Mahdi? hint:there are a number of Sunnis who have done that.so are we again rendered confused and made "lucky" to reach the truth? please educate us.

Vedaxcool,

can you tell us where the name "Sunni" or what is known in arabic as "Ahlus-Sunnah Wal-Jama'ah" came from? who gave you that name? why do you answer to that sectarian name?

why did you refuse to answer the reply of Zhul-Fiqar on false claimants of prophethood and false prophets as there are false claimants to imamate?

Ahmadiyyah and "Quran only" sects,are offshoots of Sunnism.both have produced two false prophets after Muhammad (sa).has that rendered us confused? or is recognizing true prophets also "luck" and being Muslims believing in Muhammad (sa) also "luck"?

alhamdulillah,the more you talk,the more you expose yourselves and the more you reveal to the world our Islamic beliefs.


now let me add one.can you as a Sunni who believes in caliphate and worldly power,tell us how the first 4 caliphs you believe in came to power? you are not confused,right?so tell us how four caliphs came to power and which system was used that is based on Islamic teaching to "elect" or "select" the caliph ("successor to the Prophet" )?

and just one more point.you mentioned earlier that the Shia of the twelve Imams today are majority and not the offshoot Shia sects stoping at certain number of imams because of the forceful conversion of Persia (Iran) to Shi'ism from Sunnism by Shah Ismail I.do you know why Sunnis are majority today in the Muslim world? is it not because of oppression and persecution you dealt with others? is it because Sunnis use reasoning and facts or because they use brute force to suppress opposing beliefs and views in the name of their own version of so called "jihad"? should i list historical incidents of note on Shia persecution by the Sunnis (not even wahhabis/salafists of present)? and what about the forceful conversions of christians of the roman empire in the middle east by Sunnis? what about the forceful conversion of Persia into Sunnism (from Zoroadtrianism) by Umar? my belief is if Muslims would have followed the "Safinatun-Najat"-the Ahlul-Bayt (as)-non-muslims would naturally be inclined and attracted to Islam through peaceful means.and example are the Shia Muslims of South Lebanon (Jabal Amel) who peacefully embraced Shia Islam at the hand of a Shia companion of the Prophet (sa),Abu Dharr al-Ghiffari,who was banished by Usthman; before Usthman (the third Sunni caliph) conquered that land to convert them to Sunnism.even after the conquest,they remained Shia to this day.but what did you usurper caliphs did? they tarnish the image of Islam by using:believe or die by the sword!if they allow you to live it is oppression and persecution.non-muslims now use words like "Dhimmitude" and "Jihad" unjustly to oppose Islam because of Sunnism and its caliphs.

and for your information,Shah Ismail fell in love with Shi'ism and he was no Shia scholar or "caliph" (succesor to the Prophet or the 12th Imam).he was Sunni head of state who saw the good in Shia Islam.he was giving Sunnis a taste of their own medicine.LOL the fact is Shi'ism is on the rise because of the breath of freedom Shia populations are experiencing in Iraq particularly.the tide of Shi'ism went high first after the Islamic revolution in Iran by Ayatollah Khomeini.before that Shia populations were oppressed and subjected to censor.now ask yourself why Sunni scholars are crying and worried about Sunnis increasingly becoming Shia? the Shia did not and have not use any sword.it is our books and debates we hold with people like you that makes the difference.no wonder a persian killed Umar who forced Persia to become Sunni-they felt discriminated against as non-arabs.they later on embraced Shia Islam.

"Main Sunni Sheikhs Scream From And Testify To The Rapid Spread Of Shia Islam":
https://www.nairaland.com/827432/main-sunni-sheikhs-scream-testify

Introduction by LagosShia:

lest an hypocrite denies or question the legitimacy of talking about numerology in the Quran,the Sunnis are fond of that all the time and i in particular have no objection and i am impressed by their effort.in fact when one ponders upon the Holy Quran,the instances are too many and wonderful that we can only see this reality as a Quranic miracle based on divine perfection and signs.for instance,we observe the following (few instances among many more) in the Holy Quran:

-Day (yawm)" is repeated 365 times in singular form, while its plural and dual forms "days (ayyam and yawmayn)" together are repeated 30 times. The number of repetitions of the word "month" (shahar) is 12.

-The word "satan" (shaitan) is used in the Qur'an 88 times, as is the word "angels" (malaika).

-The word faith (iman) (without genitive) is repeated 25 times throughout the Qur'an as is also the word infidelity (kufr).

-The words "paradise" and "hell" are each repeated 77 times.

-The words "man" and "woman" are also employed equally: 23 times.

now,even on nairaland,our dear friends have gone a step further to create threads on the mathematical or numerological make-up of the Holy Quran.and thankfully enough,even our dear friend Vedaxcool had a part in it.not only that,he was full of boast and joy challenging the atheist in that thread and taunting him.the thread was started by "tbaba1234":

"Another Quranic Coincidence?? SubhanAllah!":
https://www.nairaland.com/949839/another-quranic-coincidence-subhanallah

i think i have so far so good made by case for what i am going to present.

Imamate In Quranic Numerology

-how many times the word "imam" appears in the Holy Quran? 12 times,the number of the 12 holy Imams and successors of the Prophet (sa)!!! is this another Quranic coincident or a miracle?

"SAHIH BUKHARI":

Volume 9, Book 89, Number 329:
Narrated Jabir bin Samura:

I heard the Prophet saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers (who will rule all the Islamic world)." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."

"SAHIH MUSLIM":

Book 020, Number 4477:
It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I joined the company of the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) with my father and I heard him say: This Caliphate will not end until there have been twelve Caliphs among them. The narrator said: Then he (the Holy Prophet) said something that I could not follow. I said to my father: What did he say? He said: He has said: All of them will be from the Quraish.



the word "imam" appears in the following places in the Holy Quran:

2:124;17:71;15:79;28:41;9:12;21:73;32:24;25:74;11:17;28:5;36:12;46:12.

-how many times the word "infallible"(is'ma) appears in the Quran?

it appears 13 times!!! the 12 Imams (as) in addition to Sayyida Fatima (as) who is also believed to have "is'ma" are 13 individuals.

in verse 33:33,we are told of the sinless and pure nature of the Ahlul-Bayt (as):
"Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification".

the verses where the word "infallible" appears are:

4:146;5:67;10:27;40:33;3:101;3:103;11:43 (twice in the same ayah);60:10;4:175;12:32;33:17;22:78


-How many times is the word "Kisa" (cloak) mentioned the Holy Quran? the word "cloak" is in reference to the "hadith of the cloak".the people mentioned in the hadith of the cloak or "hadith al-Kisa" are five people:Prophet Muhammad,Imam Ali,Sayyida Fatima and Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain (as).these were the 5 members of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) living as of the time of the Prophet (sa) and the descent of the verse 33:33 confirming the purified state of the Ahlul-Bayt (as).

in the following places,the word "Kisa" appears five times in the Holy Quran:

2:233;23:14;2:259;4:5;5:89.


a narration of Hadith al-Kisa with English subtitles:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFuAKucK264&feature=related

courtesy:
the above details and instances given in my above post on Quranic numerology was based on a study performed by an Egyptian scholar,Dr.Majdi Wehbi as-Shafi'e.

Holy Quran 47:24
[size=14pt]"Will they not then ponder upon the Qur'an or are there locks upon their hearts?"[/size]


and here is an image of his work (in arabic) on numerology and imamate in the Holy Quran (see attached image):

Sunni Apologist,Shabbir Ally, Cites Quranic Numerology and Its Wonders As One of The Reasons He Remains Muslim:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaWrdjMs-zA

Non So blind: Just reading the poor logic above will make any sane person convulse with laughter

The lagosshia claim that the word Imam appears 12 times hence it means 12 imam, I ask what are you drinking? is this the way Allah guides people in the Qur'an? Allah wants to tell man of the equality of man and woman, He repeats the word man and woman equally, does this makes sense? this people follow their desires not guidiance, we know man and woman have equal right as Allah proclaims such in the Qur'an, if Allah intended to covey the 12 imam issue he would have said so [b]directly [/b]n because this man follows a religion of believe by luck, that is how he keeps trying hook or crook to justify such a huge lie.

The Quran is the ultimate guide for humanity. It contains all the fundamental beliefs of our faith. If Imamah was really a part of our faith, then it would be in the Quran. But Imamah is not in the Quran and we reject whatever belief is not justified in the Quran. There are many verses in the Quran that say that the believers are those who pray, give alms to the poor, do good deeds, and other such things; but why is it that not a single verse says the believers are those who follow and obey the Infallible Imam?

It remains a huge pity that the most important concept of Islam are found in the Qur'an, all the required beliefs of the Islam are clearly expressed in the Qur'an, the lies of Imamah cannot be found any where near Allah's book? the Question is why? well I summerize what the blind cannot see:

shah Ismail I came to power during the Safavid Empire and he just happened to convert to the Ithna Ashari sect, and then he forced all the Persians to convert to it by the penalty of death. Before that, there were other Shia sects which were more influential. If I had lived in the Fatimid Empire (which was Ismaili Shia), then it would have been Ismailism which was the majority for the Shia. The point is that we can’t simply follow the Ithna Ashari sect because it is the largest, namely because it wasn’t always so.

Please tell me how I am supposed to proceed to find the true path? I wish I could go to the Quran for answers, since Allah has called it the book of ultimate guidance. Unfortunately, the Quran does not mention the names of any Imams, which is weird, because wouldn’t that be important stuff to put in a book of guidance? The Quran clearly said to follow Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) who is the messenger of Allah, and yet I can’t find a single verse about following any of these Imams, let alone with their names mentioned.


So no[b]w I’m forced to look at the “Hadith” from the various sects. Each of them have their own Hadith and each of them declare the other sect deviant for following the wrong Imam and false Hadith.[/b] I’m so confused! How exactly am I supposed to scientifically determine which Hadith is the authentic one and which is fabricated? Does Allah really expect me to do this?

Even amongst the Ithna Ashari Shia, there are many different sects, including the Usulis, Akhbaris, and Shaykis. All in all, there are dozens upon dozens of Shia sects, each with their own lineage of Imams.

Book 020, Number 4483:
It has been narrated on the authority of Amir b. Sa'd b. Abu Waqqas who said: I wrote (a letter) to Jabir b. Samura and sent it to him through my servant Nafi', asking him to inform me of something he had heard from the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). He wrote to me (in reply): I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say on Friday evening, the day on which al-Aslami was stoned to death (for committing adultery): The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour has been established, or you have been ruled over by twelve Caliphs, all of them being from the Quraish. also heard him say: A small force of the Muslims will capture the white palace, the police of the Persian Emperor or his descendants. I also heard him say: Before the Day of Judgment there will appear (a number of) impostors. You are to guard against them. I also heard him say: When God grants wealth to any one of you, he should first spend it on himself and his family (and then give it in charity to the poor). I heard him (also) say: I will be your forerunner at the Cistern (expecting your arrival).

[size=18pt]we know it was during the riegn of Umar the persians were humbled![/size]

None of the hadith used the term Imam but caliph again leaving our religion by luck shias wandering aimlessly! Hence if a twoer. trheer, fourer, . . . elevener shia wanted to knwo the truth he would have to go and read sunni hadiths, that his handlers trained him to reject as being fruadulent, and after having to go to sunni hadith he would have to believe the term caliph was used mistakenly rather than imam, he would then have to imagine that except Ali r.a all the other imam rule the Ummah (sheer use of imagination to create a religion)then again he would then have to hope that of the different sects of the Ahsharis he follows the right sect! what sort of religion is this except religion by luck indeed!


“…and be not amongst those who join gods with Allah, those who split up their Religion, and become shias (sects) - each party rejoicing in that which is with itself.” (Quran, 30:31-32)

@Vedaxcool

Holy Quran 2:85
"...So do you believe in part of the Scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the Day of Resurrection they will be sent back to the severest of punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do".