@ myjoe
i think dehomer stand is very clear, rational and just.

u had said no two Jehovah's w can express ther reservations as though they are prisoners of conscience, he is trying to show u that it is possible even though it is not advisable, just as it is in any other religiouse body.

Or are u saying that some religiouse body preach that their members should be dessenting as a standerd?

How come honesty is elluding most so call religiouse people?(pentecostal/catholic)

^^^Honesty? Please answer this honestly. Melinda Gates, a Catholic, is promoting contraception at a public forum as we speak. Can you do a similar thing as a Witness?

As for being "rational, clear and just", I think thehomer is all that because he appears to support your position. Obviously you miss the sarcasm. Poor you!

MyJoe: ^^^ Armchair? This has become circular already. Have a nice day.

You have a nice day too.

MyJoe: ^^^Honesty? Please answer this honestly. Melinda Gates, a Catholic, is promoting contraception at a public forum as we speak. Can you do a similar thing as a Witness?

As for being "rational, clear and just", I think thehomer is all that because he appears to support your position. Obviously you miss the sarcasm. Poor you!

what has an individual statement like sarcasm to do with me on a public forum?

It is not what that goes into a man that defile the man but what that comes out of him.

I take people for what they say and not what i imagine or the meaning i read into their action.

Am an honest man as such i take that others are honest.
The gate is doing the abortion promotion since where she is anything goes.
If catholic had tought her to respect the bible she would have seen Gods view on abortion and respected it and not think it is man decission and put her hands into it.
She feels her views are also important on such issues and not just the pope's.
JW would all have allowed the bible to have the finall say.
Peace.

truthislight: what has an individual statement like sarcasm to do with me on a public forum?

It is not what that goes into a man that defile the man but what that comes out of him.

I take people for what they say and not what i imagine or the meaning i read into their action.

Am an honest man as such i take that others are honest.
The gate is doing the abortion promotion since where she is anything goes.
If catholic had tought her to respect the bible she would have seen Gods view on abortion and respected it [size=14pt]and not think[/size] it is man decission and put her hands into it.
She feels her views are also important on such issues and not just the pope's.
JW would [size=14pt]all[/size] have allowed the bible to have the finall say.[b][/b]
Peace.

@bolded
Thank you. You and me know things thehomer doesn't.

@italicised
Are you, as a Witness, also allowed to "feel" your views on, say, blood transfusion, are important and not just the church's? If you went to a public forum and make contrary pronouncements on blood transfusion, would your church take it the way the Catholic Church will take Mrs Gate's actions?
Thank you.

MyJoe:
@bolded
Thank you. You and me know things thehomer doesn't.

@italicised
Are you, as a Witness, also allowed to "feel" your views on, say, blood transfusion, are important and not just the church's? If you went to a public forum and make contrary pronouncements on blood transfusion, would your church take it the way the Catholic Church will take Mrs Gate's actions?
Thank you.

I think i seem to get what u are driving at.
That the catholics members can disagree on issues.

Well, that is obviouse.

The JW dont have anything to do with disagreeing on issues, since human opinion is inconsiquential on the matter of their beliefs. As long as the bible has a say on the issue under consideration it is final.
But when the bible does not have a say it is left to the individuals conscience.
NO INDIVIDUA IS THERE MOUNTH PIECE,
NO INDIVIDUAL OPINIONS IS ACCEPTED,
THE BIBLE HAS tHE FINAL SAY.
There can only be an issue when the bible is not followed, but as it is obviouse, the bible is always there stand, so, no need for dissent unless the individuals says he is not in support of the bible, then, the outcome is obviouse.

(note, they dont have any person as their mouth piece on issues whose opinion will be necessary)
peace.

Left to me paul had the witnesses in mind when he wrote 2tim 3:5
How do you come up with Jesus being angel Michael when Heb 1:5-14 clearly defines angels as ministering spirit for the heirs of salvation? In Heb 1:8 clearly asserts the deity of Christ. On His ressurrection Thomas a jewish disciple who knew what it meant to call someone aside YAHWEH God, called him my LORD and MY GOD.(John 20:28)
Witnesses argue that in Isa 9:6, Jesus was called mighty God not ALMIGHTY thereby giving room for two seperate "Gods", whereas Isaiah a jew would have known that the Lord our God is ONE Lord..(Deut 6). For those who might want to argue along the lines of John 14:28, you might also want to read the following scriptures: John 10:30,John 1:1(which the witnesses in their desperation have watered down to imply that Jesus is a god),Phil 2:5-9.
Another very sily claim of the witnesses is that the manifestations of the Holy spirit in signs, wonders, healings, and tongues ended in the dispensation of the early apostles, using 1corinth 13:8,9 and some funny logic to buttress their point. However, peter standing on the day of pentecost proclaimed in Acts 2:39 that the promise is for all who will ever believe.By the way, if I was gullible enough to believe the JW's position based on 1corinth 13, where was it stated that the time for the cessation in the spirit's manifestation in the highlighted manners has elapsed?..after writin 1corinth 13 paul wrote in chapter 14 that he "speaks in tongues more than all the corinthians"(see vs.18). "Speak" is a present and continuing tense, which means it was a practice for him(paul). Jesus said these signs shall follow them that believe..He didn't make a distinction in the believers who will access the signs, nor put a time limit to their manifestations. Why are the russelites doing so?
On the subject of the state of Israel, the JW argue that they have been abandoned forever by God, and that they are not in God's plan again as a nation. This they again support with Matt 23:37-39...they again forget that that scripture has the following caveat: "till ye shall say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. To further deflate their claim, paul plainly states in Rom 9,10 and 11 (especially in chapter 11) that God has a plan for israel's redemption at the end of the age. See Zech 12 to understand the fulfilment of Christ's own prophecy in Matt 23:39b.
On the issue of blood transfusion, that is a mosaic commandment. In contemporary times, we are not under the law. If I were to reject transfusion on hygienic grounds, it does not make those who accept it sinners. They are not actually feeding on blood in the canibalistic sense which I believe was moses' point.
So much said..only the Holy Spirit can give us understanding.

^^^
bro,
i hope u will agree with me that it is a free world for free moral agent with free will to make there choice when it comes to worship.

The JW as i know them dont force anybody to any religiouse afiliation, so, pls. Have ur peace.

However, which ever believe u stick to, as long it is from the bible, it should rhyme from Genesis to Revelation.

At a glance what u think is right like some of the assumptions u just made may actually be a differnt thing from what u think when u consider them on the light of many other scriptures.

Since u love the bible, that cannot be a bad thing,
i can only say, since the bible said one should continually test his inspiration or knowladge, i think u should seek a good avenue to shear ur views with them and they may also have one or two to shear with u basing ur reasoning on the bible, i know they are ever willing to do same.

Peace

truthislight:
I think i seem to get what u are driving at.
That the catholics members can disagree on issues.

Yes. I was clear enough all along. The Witnesses boast about this fact (as you have done here) and won't ordinarily deny it. Maybe you were just too busy clapping for thehomer who was just doing "debate" to notice the point I was trying to clarify for him and his readers. The Witnesses emphasise how united they are and in their mistaken view, unity equals uniformity of worldview - which is achieved at the expense of freedom of thought, conscience and opinion.

Well, that is obviouse.

The JW dont have anything to do with disagreeing on issues, since human opinion is inconsiquential on the matter of their beliefs.

You put it so well. Your statement would be perfect if we substitute "personal opinion" for "human opinion". Witnessing is a product of human opinions.

As long as the bible has a say on the issue under consideration it is final.
But when the bible does not have a say it is left to the individuals conscience.

Wrong. If you were right, why are matters on which the Bible is not clear, such as (1) blood transfusion, management and related matters, and (2) the return of Jesus, not left to individual consciences or understanding? Why is participation in politics through voting or other means not left to individual consciences?

NO INDIVIDUA IS THERE MOUNTH PIECE,
NO INDIVIDUAL OPINIONS IS ACCEPTED,
THE BIBLE HAS tHE FINAL SAY.

You cannot say no individual is a mouth piece since God does not speak to you. People do. Or the literature you read, are they printed from heaven? Remember that according to the Watchtower magazine, your FDS is represented by the GB, which is made up of about 12 people - all male, all elderly, nearly all white. These twelve or so people are your mouthpiece. What they say is all that matters to you. Nothing else does. Voicing out a dissent (not an enquiry) to anyone can lead to consequences.

There can only be an issue when the bible is not followed, but as it is obviouse, the bible is always there stand, so, no need for dissent unless the individuals says he is not in support of the bible, then, the outcome is obviouse.

There are many issues the Bible is not clear on and there are many others it is not very clear on. What people do is to use their own opinions to interprete it and then attribute that to the Holy Spirit. Deal with it.

Note: Your answers to my questions so far show clearly that you labelled me wrongly when you called me "dishonest". And I am certainly no "religiouse people (pentecostal/catholic)"

@myjoe
sorry mate.
If there are issues that u need clearification/express from the JW kindly meet one of the witnesses.
Am sure geographical location will not be a barier since they are available in almost all geographical area, going from house to house, note. their work is free, no tithing.

Better still, write to there branch offices.
Thanks.
Peace

truthislight: @myjoe
sorry mate.
If there are issues that u need clearification/express from the JW kindly meet one of the witnesses.
Am sure geographical location will not be a barier since they are available in almost all geographical area, going from house to house, note. their work is free, no tithing.

Better still, write to there branch offices.
Thanks.
Peace

Aha.

The programmed mind kicks in. A mere discussion scares him. He is only comfortable where he is the one talking away while the other listens quietly. Subject what he is preaching to serious questions and he simply can't handle the cognitive dissonance so he takes the easy way out. The alternative cannot be contemplated for one second. It's too much.

By the way, I don't need any clarifications. You are the one who does, but not the kind you think.

And I'm not being condescending. I came here to clarify a simple matter in another poster's statement when you chooked ya mouth on top the matta.

MyJoe:
Yes. I was clear enough all along. The Witnesses boast about this fact (as you have done here) and won't ordinarily deny it. Maybe you were just too busy clapping for thehomer who was just doing "debate" to notice the point I was trying to clarify for him and his readers. The Witnesses emphasise how united they are and in their mistaken view, unity equals uniformity of worldview - which is achieved at the expense of freedom of thought, conscience and opinion.


You put it so well. Your statement would be perfect if we substitute "personal opinion" for "human opinion". Witnessing is a product of human opinions.


Wrong. If you were right, why are matters on which the Bible is not clear, such as (1) blood transfusion, management and related matters, and (2) the return of Jesus, not left to individual consciences or understanding? Why is participation in politics through voting or other means not left to individual consciences?


You cannot say no individual is a mouth piece since God does not speak to you. People do. Or the literature you read, are they printed from heaven? Remember that according to the Watchtower magazine, your FDS is represented by the GB, which is made up of about 12 people - all male, all elderly, nearly all white. These twelve or so people are your mouthpiece. What they say is all that matters to you. Nothing else does. Voicing out a dissent (not an enquiry) to anyone can lead to consequences.


There are many issues the Bible is not clear on and there are many others it is not very clear on. What people do is to use their own opinions to interprete it and then attribute that to the Holy Spirit. Deal with it.

Note: Your answers to my questions so far show clearly that you labelled me wrongly when you called me "dishonest". And I am certainly no "religiouse people (pentecostal/catholic)"

Are u irreligious??

ijawkid:

@myjoe

Are u irreligious??

its like u also saw what i saw(a fight)
1. he is not religious (pentecostal/catholic)
2. He is not atheist
3. He is not interested in clearification.
Then what does he need? = a fight

sorry mate.
From the above i dont know what u want.
Peace though.

truthislight:
its like u also saw what i saw(a fight)
1. he is not religious (pentecostal/catholic)
2. He is not atheist
3. He is not interested in clearification.
Then what does he need? = a fight

Funny.

duke4ever: why let your emotion and hate eat you up? Is this how to reason? Are you mature at all? Tufia!
How does this nonesense concern the topic aunmanu?

@ duke4ever i stand evry right right to air my opinion without any1 and i tink it will be reasonable of u to be sensible and have a better manner of approach in all matters. I say and i repeat that jw is a cult. Can u personnally challenge any jw officially errorneous teaching without being disfellowship or called an apostate? Did christ return invisibly in 1914? Has jw changed their teaching so often in recent yr callin dem new light? If u r a baptised jw wat are the two principal questions u were asked before being baptised? Is jesus arch angel michael? Did ur watchtower magazine of 1984 edition taught that not all that witnes world war one will die till christ will return? Have u heard of berth-serim and the comin back of bible prophets in 1935 as taught only by jw? Did jw teach that christ is not the only mediator bw God and man but watchtower bible and track society is the mediator bw God and man? Do u believe in being born again (john 3:3)? Do u pray in Jesus name? Can u pray while doin ur preachin work? Is jw new world translation not different frm all other bible translations (read NIV JOHN 1:1 and compare wat u hav on ur NWT)? Are u not brainwashed dat christendom is evil and dat only jw will escape armagedon? Can u teach with the bible alone without using either a watchtower magazine or reasoning of the scripture booklet? Try that next u go for a preachin work and u will personally xpose jw false teachings. I hav many questions that i culd hav asked u but if u can respond to dis i will take my time wit u and thrash out, for you, the history of jw, their metamorphosis, and mind and information controling tricks dat wil hold, even an intelligent mind, hostage of indepedent reasoining. And its unforuntate that over the year u hav been help spell down by this organization. I hav a good news for u cos light is comin ur way if u r ready to let us reason together.

true2god: @ duke4ever i stand evry right right to air my opinion without any1 and i tink it will be reasonable of u to be sensible and have a better manner of approach in all matters. I say and i repeat that jw is a cult. Can u personnally challenge any jw officially errorneous teaching without being disfellowship or called an apostate? Did christ return invisibly in 1914? Has jw changed their teaching so often in recent yr callin dem new light? If u r a baptised jw wat are the two principal questions u were asked before being baptised? Is jesus arch angel michael? Did ur watchtower magazine of 1984 edition taught that not all that witnes world war one will die till christ will return? Have u heard of berth-serim and the comin back of bible prophets in 1935 as taught only by jw? Did jw teach that christ is not the only mediator bw God and man but watchtower bible and track society is the mediator bw God and man? Do u believe in being born again (john 3:3)? Do u pray in Jesus name? Can u pray while doin ur preachin work? Is jw new world translation not different frm all other bible translations (read NIV JOHN 1:1 and compare wat u hav on ur NWT)? Are u not brainwashed dat christendom is evil and dat only jw will escape armagedon? Can u teach with the bible alone without using either a watchtower magazine or reasoning of the scripture booklet? Try that next u go for a preachin work and u will personally xpose jw false teachings. I hav many questions that i culd hav asked u but if u can respond to dis i will take my time wit u and thrash out, for you, the history of jw, their metamorphosis, and mind and information controling tricks dat wil hold, even an intelligent mind, hostage of indepedent reasoining. And its unforuntate that over the year u hav been help spell down by this organization. I hav a good news for u cos light is comin ur way if u r ready to let us reason together.

hmmmmm!
Some one is very angry.
U will have been able to reach acrose some of the people that dont shear some of ur sentiment if u did not get so angry. Most if not all do know JW and not just u.
So, Try again.

However, some of ur assertions are very strange, why not do a second comfirmation on some of ur accusation from them to be certainly sure befor coming back to make ur case,
As it not being what the bible teach?

Meanwhile, the spirit from above the bible says is first of all "peaceable", so what spirit is in u? From above?

Note that we can easily call any of JW and varify ur accusations and deduce for ourselfs on what or how they say is there stand, or if what u term as a crime is what is recorded in the bible.

U seem so workedup on what u think they are wrong, what about there stand that is right?

They dont claim that God talk to them but what they say that the bible teach.

They are so open to dialoque that there is no need for u to be so angry and workedup.

There interest as their name implies is to bear witness to Jehovah.
Do u have a biff (fight) with that?

Cite ur claim that will be supported in the bible Genesis to Rev and no contradiction and they are not in support and lets go and ask them so we can give u a feed back later.

can u also notice that Duke4ver was only saying that ur point or argument should stick to the thread and not that he was attacking ur statement?
But u got him all wrong and angry and here we are. Hmmmm!

So, let the spirit from above(peaceable) always guid you.
Peace

truthislight:

hmmmmm!
Some one is very angry.
U will have been able to reach acrose some of the people that dont shear some of ur sentiment if u did not get so angry. Most if not all do know JW and not just u.
So, Try again.

However, some of ur assertions are very strange, why not do a second comfirmation on some of ur accusation from them to be certainly sure befor coming back to make ur case,
As it not being what the bible teach?

Meanwhile, the spirit from above the bible says is first of all "peaceable", so what spirit is in u? From above?

Note that we can easily call any of JW and varify ur accusations and deduce for ourselfs on what or how they say is there stand, or if what u term as a crime is what is recorded in the bible.

U seem so workedup on what u think they are wrong, what about there stand that is right?

They dont claim that God talk to them but what they say that the bible teach.

They are so open to dialoque that there is no need for u to be so angry and workedup.

There interest as their name implies is to bear witness to Jehovah.
Do u have a biff (fight) with that?

Cite ur claim that will be supported in the bible Genesis to Rev and no contradiction and they are not in support and lets go and ask them so we can give u a feed back later.

can u also notice that Duke4ver was only saying that ur point or argument should stick to the thread and not that he was attacking ur statement?
But u got him all wrong and angry and here we are. Hmmmm!

So, let the spirit from above(peaceable) always guid you.
Peace

Duke4ever should learn manner. not to called some anumanu (animal) no matter wat happen. I tink i need to address u properly both here on dis forum and outside this forum. Its key to proper human relation.

true2god: @ duke4ever i stand evry right right to air my opinion without any1 and i tink it will be reasonable of u to be sensible and have a better manner of approach in all matters. I say and i repeat that jw is a cult. Can u personnally challenge any jw officially errorneous teaching without being disfellowship or called an apostate? Did christ return invisibly in 1914? Has jw changed their teaching so often in recent yr callin dem new light? If u r a baptised jw wat are the two principal questions u were asked before being baptised? Is jesus arch angel michael? Did ur watchtower magazine of 1984 edition taught that not all that witnes world war one will die till christ will return? Have u heard of berth-serim and the comin back of bible prophets in 1935 as taught only by jw? Did jw teach that christ is not the only mediator bw God and man but watchtower bible and track society is the mediator bw God and man? Do u believe in being born again (john 3:3)? Do u pray in Jesus name? Can u pray while doin ur preachin work? Is jw new world translation not different frm all other bible translations (read NIV JOHN 1:1 and compare wat u hav on ur NWT)? Are u not brainwashed dat christendom is evil and dat only jw will escape armagedon? Can u teach with the bible alone without using either a watchtower magazine or reasoning of the scripture booklet? Try that next u go for a preachin work and u will personally xpose jw false teachings. I hav many questions that i culd hav asked u but if u can respond to dis i will take my time wit u and thrash out, for you, the history of jw, their metamorphosis, and mind and information controling tricks dat wil hold, even an intelligent mind, hostage of indepedent reasoining. And its unforuntate that over the year u hav been help spell down by this organization. I hav a good news for u cos light is comin ur way if u r ready to let us reason together.

So from ur whole write up I can see that u got problems with d following...

**1914
**arch angel micheal
**praying in Jesus name
**a different bible..

What again?

**Its surprises me to hear u ask if d witnesses pray in Jesus name....if d witnesses don't pray in Jesus name,then in whose name do they pray thru to Yahweh??

The question shuld be why do others pray in Jesus name??that question is directed to trinitarians and modalists like frosbel.....

Why pray thru Jesus if Jesus is already d almighty God??
its direct contradiction...

Why not Just find another mediator thru whom u culd get to Jesus....

As far as I knw d witnesses,they pray thru Jesus....they follow due process to get to Yahweh......

**u got a problem with micheal d arch angel??

If I may ask u,if micheal isn't Jesus from all indications from d bible,then who is micheal??

Please I'm ready to learn....

Tell me which other son of God has been entrusted with d responsibility to war against satan and his demons,and to chase satan out of heaven if not Jesus.......

Tell me which angel has that power......

**as for d bible wahala d solution isn't fgr-fetched.......

A freind of mine once ran to me telling me that the NKJV almost sounds like the NWT...

I laughed....

And I then asked him::is it the witnesses that authored that too??

There's one thing I'm sure of,we all do not have d 100% bible in our hands.....

The bible has been tampered with over time centuries even b4 the NWT came into existence....
Even the king james version that many uphold as if it fell down from heaven has got un-imaginable flaws that wuld make 1 stop reading d bible........

I think all the NWT has done is make d bible simple to read,and given sense to bible verses the way they shuld be.....

Especially when dealing with d words GOD,worship......

Words that other translations would use in-appropraitely and foster confusions......

Even other translations have criticized the kjv for including extracts from the latin vulgate into d original scriptures(and that was done all to support trinity)....

If its translation wahala dnt u point hands @ d witnesses,because every bible existing today is under probation.....

true2god: @ duke4ever i stand evry right right to air my opinion without any1 and i tink it will be reasonable of u to be sensible and have a better manner of approach in all matters. I say and i repeat that jw is a cult. Can u personnally challenge any jw officially errorneous teaching without being disfellowship or called an apostate? Did christ return invisibly in 1914? Has jw changed their teaching so often in recent yr callin dem new light? If u r a baptised jw wat are the two principal questions u were asked before being baptised? Is jesus arch angel michael? Did ur watchtower magazine of 1984 edition taught that not all that witnes world war one will die till christ will return? Have u heard of berth-serim and the comin back of bible prophets in 1935 as taught only by jw? Did jw teach that christ is not the only mediator bw God and man but watchtower bible and track society is the mediator bw God and man? Do u believe in being born again (john 3:3)? Do u pray in Jesus name? Can u pray while doin ur preachin work? Is jw new world translation not different frm all other bible translations (read NIV JOHN 1:1 and compare wat u hav on ur NWT)? Are u not brainwashed dat christendom is evil and dat only jw will escape armagedon? Can u teach with the bible alone without using either a watchtower magazine or reasoning of the scripture booklet? Try that next u go for a preachin work and u will personally xpose jw false teachings. I hav many questions that i culd hav asked u but if u can respond to dis i will take my time wit u and thrash out, for you, the history of jw, their metamorphosis, and mind and information controling tricks dat wil hold, even an intelligent mind, hostage of indepedent reasoining. And its unforuntate that over the year u hav been help spell down by this organization. I hav a good news for u cos light is comin ur way if u r ready to let us reason together.

**born again??.....

Who is born again??

That's 1 hell of a serious topic if u ask me.....

Witnesses believe in persons being born again....
Ofcus its only those who are born again that can inherit d heavens as d bible says...

But d way many view d born again issue is not d way d witnesses view it and ofcus that's nt hw. D bible views it.....

Many say as long as ""u've accepted christ as ur lord and personal saviour"" then ur born again....

Please correct me if I'm wrong......

Also d witnesses do not believe that all wuld have to be born again to inherit Gods kingdom.....
Then we'll have to talk about from abel down to John d baptizer and all those who never even got baptized ,who were under d law of moses, who weren't born again,and also all the unrighteous persons that will be ressurected,but who will still inherit Gods kingdom.....

And that would lead to d fact that nt all righteous persons will go to heaven....chikena!!!

If all what I've said doesn't make sense please tell me.....


If D witnesses are wrong then prove them wrong.....

@true2God...

Please can u show me the watchtower 1935 magazine if u have it??

1timothy 2:5 says Jesus is d only mediator btw man and Yahweh....

The witnesses solely believe in that bro.......

Abi na lie??

That's why they pray in Jesus name and imitate exactly hw Jesus lived when he was on earth...

Infact I'v come to knw that d witnesses are d very 1's who imitate Jesus's footstep closely....

It surprises me that even as many claim they knw Jesus so much and say d witnesses do nt know Jesus,it is still d witnesses who have imitated Jesus despite there past flaws right down to this moment.....

I culd list them for u if u wanna hear them.....

I know u know them.....

1914 is nt even an issue that has actually bothered me.because all it did was inform me that we are @ d verge of the end of this world....

All d witnesses have done with bible chronology is to convince themselves of where they are in d stream of time and not to celebrate a date called 1914 as if it was an xmas celebration....

I mean every other denomination or bible scholars who have bein intimate with d bible have @ 1 time or the other dabbled into bible chronology...its not a sin...

It shows love for truth....

I've read d interpretations of other scholars as regards bible times,dates,prophecies,when d world would end....
And all I say is good work to them....
It only shows they are concerned about d end of this satan ruled world rather than wasting time hoping for humans to make things right....

That's d same spirit d witnesses have...

There is never a moment d witnesses dnt speak about d end and how they really want the end to come....

Is it bad to have that feeling as servants of God?........

The Jehovahs witnesses didn't 1 day fall from d heavens,that's why adjustments must be made to doctrines that weren't right in d past.......
They are a dynamic people,not a static group...

They are d most peaceful group of persons u culd find world wide,,,,,,

Wars they do not get involved in all in obedience to Jesus commands and principles...

Politics of this world they remain neutral to because they know who rules d world....

I mean d giant steps d witnesses have taken just to adhere to Jesus words,d same Jesus u say they dnt know is what has made them outstandingly different from all other groups....

Like I told u earlier d witnesses have had there flaws,but in all they are what they are today....resolute in praising and worshipping Yahweh through Jesus(Yeshua) the son of God........

Thank u!!!!!

true2god: Duke4ever should learn manner. not to called some anumanu (animal) no matter wat happen. I tink i need to address u properly both here on dis forum and outside this forum. Its key to proper human relation.

@Duke4ever
Do u really have to call someone animal to make ur point stand?

I think that was very unnecessary.
We dont have to use foul language on a public forum like this.

Willzkid: Left to me paul had the witnesses in mind when he wrote 2tim 3:5
How do you come up with Jesus being angel Michael when Heb 1:5-14 clearly defines angels as ministering spirit for the heirs of salvation? In Heb 1:8 clearly asserts the deity of Christ. On His ressurrection Thomas a jewish disciple who knew what it meant to call someone aside YAHWEH God, called him my LORD and MY GOD.(John 20:28)
Witnesses argue that in Isa 9:6, Jesus was called mighty God not ALMIGHTY thereby giving room for two seperate "Gods", whereas Isaiah a jew would have known that the Lord our God is ONE Lord..(Deut 6). For those who might want to argue along the lines of John 14:28, you might also want to read the following scriptures: John 10:30,John 1:1(which the witnesses in their desperation have watered down to imply that Jesus is a god),Phil 2:5-9.
Another very sily claim of the witnesses is that the manifestations of the Holy spirit in signs, wonders, healings, and tongues ended in the dispensation of the early apostles, using 1corinth 13:8,9 and some funny logic to buttress their point. However, peter standing on the day of pentecost proclaimed in Acts 2:39 that the promise is for all who will ever believe.By the way, if I was gullible enough to believe the JW's position based on 1corinth 13, where was it stated that the time for the cessation in the spirit's manifestation in the highlighted manners has elapsed?..after writin 1corinth 13 paul wrote in chapter 14 that he "speaks in tongues more than all the corinthians"(see vs.18). "Speak" is a present and continuing tense, which means it was a practice for him(paul). Jesus said these signs shall follow them that believe..He didn't make a distinction in the believers who will access the signs, nor put a time limit to their manifestations. Why are the russelites doing so?
On the subject of the state of Israel, the JW argue that they have been abandoned forever by God, and that they are not in God's plan again as a nation. This they again support with Matt 23:37-39...they again forget that that scripture has the following caveat: "till ye shall say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. To further deflate their claim, paul plainly states in Rom 9,10 and 11 (especially in chapter 11) that God has a plan for israel's redemption at the end of the age. See Zech 12 to understand the fulfilment of Christ's own prophecy in Matt 23:39b.
On the issue of blood transfusion, that is a mosaic commandment. In contemporary times, we are not under the law. If I were to reject transfusion on hygienic grounds, it does not make those who accept it sinners. They are not actually feeding on blood in the canibalistic sense which I believe was moses' point.
So much said..only the Holy Spirit can give us understanding.

You sound a bit unfriendly, willzkid. However, if you check through some posts that preced this you will see some of your questions have been touched already, especially the one about angel michael. I'll be glad to see how you or perhaps true2god will crack a few questions raised regarding angel Michael. Try and prove witnesses wrong for saying Jesus is angel Micheal.

Note one thing: A deity is a god or goddess or God. Witnesses do not dispute the deity of Christ. Yahweh and Jesus are deities. Stone or wood or anything can be a deity. The question is, which of these is the greatest among all the deities or who is the Almighty God?

John 10:28
Thomas answered him, "my Lord and my God!" World English Bible (WEB)
Thomas replied to him, "my Lord and my God!" New English Translation (NET)
Have you noticed exclamation mark ( !) after 'God?'

Thomas' replied by exclaiming those words the way people sometimes exclaim today: "O.....h my God!" or "Je......sus!"
However, some translations have omitted this exclamation mark for obvious reason. Read from verse 26 and visualiseThomas' reaction to see which translations best describe the situation.

Nevertheless, with or without an exclamation mark, there is no objection to referring to Jesus as "God," if this is what Thomas had in mind. Such would be in harmony with Isaiah 9:6 which prophetically describes Jesus as "Mighty God," but not as the Almighty God. Witnesses believe in ONE God,YAHWEH, the Almighty, who is your heavenly Father and the Father of Jesus Christ. At John 17:3 Jesus referred to his father as the only true God. Was he wrong? Far from it!

Therefore, our heavenly Father whom Jesus prayed to when on earth, is the ALMIGHTY GOD. He is one, not two and not three merged in one. He is a distinct being and not a composite being. His son knew there are so many gods or deities, hence he used the expression: "the only true God". Was Jesus referring to himself or himself and father, or himself, father and holy spirit? Not at all!

The word "only" signifies: no other or others of the same group exist or are there.
What a fitting description of a distinct being, YAHWEH.

Willzkid: Left to me paul had the witnesses in mind when he wrote 2tim 3:5
How do you come up with Jesus being angel Michael when Heb 1:5-14 clearly defines angels as ministering spirit for the heirs of salvation? In Heb 1:8 clearly asserts the deity of Christ. On His ressurrection Thomas a jewish disciple who knew what it meant to call someone aside YAHWEH God, called him my LORD and MY GOD.(John 20:28)
Witnesses argue that in Isa 9:6, Jesus was called mighty God not ALMIGHTY thereby giving room for two seperate "Gods", whereas Isaiah a jew would have known that the Lord our God is ONE Lord..(Deut 6). For those who might want to argue along the lines of John 14:28, you might also want to read the following scriptures: John 10:30,John 1:1(which the witnesses in their desperation have watered down to imply that Jesus is a god),Phil 2:5-9.
Another very sily claim of the witnesses is that the manifestations of the Holy spirit in signs, wonders, healings, and tongues ended in the dispensation of the early apostles, using 1corinth 13:8,9 and some funny logic to buttress their point. However, peter standing on the day of pentecost proclaimed in Acts 2:39 that the promise is for all who will ever believe.By the way, if I was gullible enough to believe the JW's position based on 1corinth 13, where was it stated that the time for the cessation in the spirit's manifestation in the highlighted manners has elapsed?..after writin 1corinth 13 paul wrote in chapter 14 that he "speaks in tongues more than all the corinthians"(see vs.18). "Speak" is a present and continuing tense, which means it was a practice for him(paul). Jesus said these signs shall follow them that believe..He didn't make a distinction in the believers who will access the signs, nor put a time limit to their manifestations. Why are the russelites doing so?
On the subject of the state of Israel, the JW argue that they have been abandoned forever by God, and that they are not in God's plan again as a nation. This they again support with Matt 23:37-39...they again forget that that scripture has the following caveat: "till ye shall say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. To further deflate their claim, paul plainly states in Rom 9,10 and 11 (especially in chapter 11) that God has a plan for israel's redemption at the end of the age. See Zech 12 to understand the fulfilment of Christ's own prophecy in Matt 23:39b.
On the issue of blood transfusion, that is a mosaic commandment. In contemporary times, we are not under the law. If I were to reject transfusion on hygienic grounds, it does not make those who accept it sinners. They are not actually feeding on blood in the canibalistic sense which I believe was moses' point.
So much said..only the Holy Spirit can give us understanding.

John 1:1
According to King James Version,John 1:1reads : "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"?
John 1:14 tells us that "the Word became flesh and resided among us." Trinitarians claim that this "Word" (Greek, lo'gos) who came to earth as Jesus Christ was God Almighty himself.

Yet, notice that even in the King James Version John 1:1 says "the Word was with God." Someone who is WITH another person is not the same as that other person. You cannot be WITH yourself.
So even from this translation, two distinct personalities are shown. Also, no third person of any Trinity is mentioned at all.

As for the King James Version's saying in the latter part of John 1:1 that the "Word was God," other translations say something different. Some are as follows:

1808: "and the word was a god." The New Testament, in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome's New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London.

1864: "and a god was the Word." The Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London.

1935: "and the Word was divine." The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed, Chicago.

1935: "the Logos was divine." A New Translation of the Bible, by James Moffatt, New York.

1975: "and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word." Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany.

1978: "and godlike sort was the Logos." Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin.

1979: "and a god was the Logos." Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Jurgen Becker, Würzburg, Germany.

Also, in 1950 the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc., rendered the phrase, "and the Word was a god."

Do such renderings agree with the grammatical construction of John 1:1 in the Greek language? Yes, they do.

At John 1:1 there are two occurrences of the Greek noun the·os' (god). The first occurrence refers to Almighty God, with whom the Word was—"and the Word [lo'gos] was with God [a form of the·os']." This first the·os' is preceded by a form of the Greek definite article ho. The noun the·os' with the definite article ho in front of it points to a distinct identity, in this case Almighty God—"and the Word was with [the] God."

Considering the above, Jesus is distinct from his father in identity, and like he said at John 14:28, his father is greater than him.

When you quoted John 14:28 and John10:30 what were you trying to prove? That Jesus was lying when he said his father is greater tha him? Or that he is contradictory?

John 10:30
When saying, "I and my father are one," did Jesus mean that they are equal? At John 17:21,22, Jesus prayed regarding his followers: "And the glory which thou gravest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." KJV

Jesus used the same Greek word (hen) for "one" in all these instances. Obviously, Jesus disciples do not all become part of the trinity. But they do come to share a ONENESS OF PURPOSE with Father and the son, the same sort of oneness that unites God and Christ.

A son can express similar oneness with his earthly father today.

At Genesis 2:24 when God joined Adam and Eve together in marriage He said in part: "...and the TWO will become one flesh."
If these strong words of union and oneness were used in connection with God and his son, imagine how people would twist and misapply the scripture.

What can you say about 1corrinthians11:3 ? Recall that when Paul was inspired to give this hierarchy of headship Jesus had already completed his earthly assignment and was in the heaven with his Father, both existing as spirit beings.

Freksy:


John 1:1
According to King James Version,John 1:1reads : "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"?
John 1:14 tells us that "the Word became flesh and resided among us." Trinitarians claim that this "Word" (Greek, lo'gos) who came to earth as Jesus Christ was God Almighty himself.

Yet, notice that even in the King James Version John 1:1 says "the Word was with God." Someone who is WITH another person is not the same as that other person. You cannot be WITH yourself.
So even from this translation, two distinct personalities are shown. Also, no third person of any Trinity is mentioned at all.

As for the King James Version's saying in the latter part of John 1:1 that the "Word was God," other translations say something different. Some are as follows:

1808: "and the word was a god." The New Testament, in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome's New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London.

1864: "and a god was the Word." The Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London.

1935: "and the Word was divine." The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed, Chicago.

1935: "the Logos was divine." A New Translation of the Bible, by James Moffatt, New York.

1975: "and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word." Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany.

1978: "and godlike sort was the Logos." Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin.

1979: "and a god was the Logos." Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Jurgen Becker, Würzburg, Germany.

Also, in 1950 the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc., rendered the phrase, "and the Word was a god."

Do such renderings agree with the grammatical construction of John 1:1 in the Greek language? Yes, they do.

At John 1:1 there are two occurrences of the Greek noun the·os' (god). The first occurrence refers to Almighty God, with whom the Word was—"and the Word [lo'gos] was with God [a form of the·os']." This first the·os' is preceded by a form of the Greek definite article ho. The noun the·os' with the definite article ho in front of it points to a distinct identity, in this case Almighty God—"and the Word was with [the] God."

Considering the above, Jesus is distinct from his father in identity, and like he said at John 14:28, his father is greater than him.

When you quoted John 14:28 and John10:30 what were you trying to prove? That Jesus was lying when he said his father is greater tha him? Or that he is contradictory?

John 10:30
When saying, "I and my father are one," did Jesus mean that they are equal? At John 17:21,22, Jesus prayed regarding his followers: "And the glory which thou gravest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." KJV

Jesus used the same Greek word (hen) for "one" in all these instances. Obviously, Jesus disciples do not all become part of the trinity. But they do come to share a ONENESS OF PURPOSE with Father and the son, the same sort of oneness that unites God and Christ.

A son can express similar oneness with his earthly father today.

At Genesis 2:24 when God joined Adam and Eve together in marriage He said in part: "...and the TWO will become one flesh."
If these strong words of union and oneness were used in connection with God and his son, imagine how people would twist and misapply the scripture.

What can you say about 1corrinthians11:3 ? Recall that when Paul was inspired to give this hierarchy of headship Jesus had already completed his earthly assignment and was in the heaven with his Father, both existing as spirit beings.

Fresky I need ur email...

Here's mine...

Wagskehinde@yahoo.com

ijawkid:

Fresky I need ur email...

Here's mine...

Wagskehinde@yahoo.com

Good day!

Call4freksy@yahoo.com

@Fresky, check out this translation from Martin Luther in 1545

Johannes 1
Luther Bibel 1545 (LUTH1545)
1 Im Anfang war das Wort, und das Wort war bei Gott, und Gott war das Wort.
In the beginning the Word was and the Word was with God, and God was the Word.

I'm thinking here there was a deliberate attempt to negate the essence of Christ! So Mr Fresky, who is going to judge the world? Jehovah or Jesus? Is the Holy Spirit also God or just the "force of God" because I sense you're a JW?

If you answer the questions then we can continue.

proo212: @Fresky, check out this translation from Martin Luther in 1545

Johannes 1
Luther Bibel 1545 (LUTH1545)
1 Im Anfang war das Wort, und das Wort war bei Gott, und Gott war das Wort.
In the beginning the Word was and the Word was with God, and God was the Word.

I'm thinking here there was a deliberate attempt to negate the essence of Christ! So Mr Fresky, who is going to judge the world? Jehovah or Jesus? Is the Holy Spirit also God or just the "force of God" because I sense you're a JW?

If you answer the questions then we can continue.

I seem to like ur politeness though.

Ok,
the holy spirit is God active force. QED.
While u and me have hands to carry out our intent, it is not the same with God, it is that force that he uses in whatever way he wishes to attain his desire or carry out his intentions,
this explains why the holy spirit is mentions in many ways, but not as a person.

The triniterian are saying that the holy spirit is a person basing there case on Genesis where God says let us make man in our image.
That "it was the holy spirit that God was talking to, since the bible had earlier said that the spirit was going to and fro over the waters".

This assumption is wrong and is due to lack of knowledge of what other part of the bibles says.

Eph4:10 and coloss 1:15

Eph says that after Jesus resurection he ascended far above all the heavens, meaning that the heaven mention at genesis is not a reference to the throne of God or a reference to where God and Jesus stays.

And colossian shows that Jesus is the first born of all creation, meaning that Jesus was in existance well befor the start of creation of other things. As the first entity that was created by God.

So, when God said lets creat man in our image he was talking to his master worker, through whom all things are.

I went this far so that it clears it for any triniterian that wants to take this part.

There is no where in the bible that the holy spirit is identified as a person the way it is done for Jehovah God and his son Jesus, this two are persons, two seperate persons. (note, they are not just personified but real personage)
peace

Acts 5:3-4 Holy Spirit can be lied to.
When you lie to the Holy Spirit, you lie to
God.
Acts 13:2 Holy Spirit speaks and uses a
personal pronoun of himself. He can be
obeyed.
1 Corinthians 2:10 Holy Spirit has a mind/
searches.
Ephesians 4:30 Holy Spirit has emotions/
may be grieved.
John 16:7 Holy Spirit has a will.
John 14:26 Holy Spirit teaches.
John 15:26 Holy Spirit testifies.
Acts 8:29 Holy Spirit issues commands.
Romans 8:26 Holy Spirit intercedes/prays.

But Jesus referred to the Spirit as a He in John 14 and John 15 and I'm sure you know those verses

John 14:15 15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

John 15:26 26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

Christ in these 2 verses referred to the Holy Spirit as a He.

Christ also said in Isaiah 48:16 “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit Have sent Me.”

Acts 13:1-2 Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.

In the book of Revelation, it is said in a few verses the saying He who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit is saying.

From these passages, the Spirit is clearly not an inanimate object but a being. He gave orders for Paul and Barnabas to go out to the gentiles.

I wait for more exposition...

Thinking about this, Acts 1:8 totally debunks the whole JW belief system.

Acts 1:8 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

proo212: But Jesus referred to the Spirit as a He in John 14 and John 15 and I'm sure you know those verses

John 14:15 15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

John 15:26 26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

Christ in these 2 verses referred to the Holy Spirit as a He.

Christ also said in Isaiah 48:16 “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit Have sent Me.”

Acts 13:1-2 Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.

In the book of Revelation, it is said in a few verses the saying He who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit is saying.

From these passages, the Spirit is clearly not an inanimate object but a being. He gave orders for Paul and Barnabas to go out to the gentiles.

I wait for more exposition...

Thinking about this, Acts 1:8 totally debunks the whole JW belief system.

Acts 1:8 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

If the holy spirit is realy a person like Yahweh and Jesus christ please tell me where we shuld place d holy spirit in this hierarchy arrangement...

Let's read 1 corinthians 11:3..

1 Corinthians 11:3
New International Version (NIV)
3 But I want you to realize that the head of
every man is Christ, and the head of the
woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God.

Please I want u to tell me where d holy spirit shuld fit in if he really is a person....

Who is d holy spirit head of and who is head of the holy spirit??

This is 1 verse that has made trinitarians go haywire in trying to give an exegesis..

Or can we assume Jesus is head of d holy spirit just to make d trinity dogma hold??

Need I remind u that d bible many times personalize abstract forces or even d qualities of God e.g WISDOM..

Even d bible many atimes will make DEATH sound as if its a person..

In trying to find a 3rd entity to fit into d pagan trinity formular,its founders resorted into dragging d holy spirit into this issue....


it has also been known that when servants of God gaze into d heavens thru revelation they only get to see YahwÉh sitted on his magnificent throne aÑd his son Yehshua sitting @ his right hand..
But never,I repeat never is d holy spirit in that sitting arrangement or whatever u might call it...

If d holy spirit is a person making up a God hÉad then it shuld be in that set up,but never. Is d holy spirit found....abi him go messagÉ?


Because this is heaven we are talking about..

@pro....

In also trying to make d holy spirit be a 3rd person in d trinity formular,translations like the kjv resorted intÓ using d word ghost(an apparition) to define Gods spirit...

Which contradicts if d holy spirit is a person in d 1st place. ......



Take ur mind back to d council of nicea...that's were it all started my bro...

Before that sitting,none of d apostles worshipped d holy spirit thinking it to be a person that is equal with Yahweh....

If a person can come as fire on peoples head(pentecost 33 c.e) and as a dove on Jesus ,then I wonder what kind of person is that..

The inconsistencies of making d holy spirit a person only leads to more questions that even u can't find an answer to...