MyJoe: @BARRISTERS
I hope to read and comment on your post during the week.

Ubenedictus: Dear myjoe please end this thread and if u have a case against d JW bring it on another thread, one topic per thread thatway u position wont b misunderstood.
Peace.

BARRISTERS: @Myjoe
i still wonder why you quote bibles and think it will partly surport your appologetics only to leave you with plenty holes to fill,see below;

Act as free men, in what areas and why?
verses 5-9 explained the transformation from the old law to faith in christ, while the old law required circumcision to be called among the 'sons of God' christ sacrifice has opened the door to
12,the gentiles who were formerly required to circumcise before now were declared to have freedom from the requirements of old law.

and that is still the same thing that paul was also emphasizing below in your quote;

just as the isrealites of old celebrates 'new moon'and 'sabbath'etc....

1 Chronicles 23:31 1 Chronicles 23 1 Chronicles 23:30-32 and whenever burnt offerings were presented to the LORD[color=#000099] on Sabbaths and at New Moon festivals and at appointed feasts. They were to serve before the LORD regularly in the proper number and in the way prescribed for them.[/color]

your bible quote below does not even support your point;

you should have even given some thought into the directions given through paul earlier in the book of 1 corinthians 14:34-37


if you compare your statement with the other direction given through paul below;

1 Corinthians 14:34-37

34 [size=14pt]Let your[a] women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive[/size], as the law also says. [size=14pt]35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
[/size]

[b]now, has paul burdened down the church members,isn'nt it? or even deprived the women of their right?
or maybe paul has assumed the 'centre brain' for women knowing fully well that 'he will instruct them not to allow theirself to be judged or determined by leaders including paul himself, is that not how you understood it?

can you see parallels with paul's case below;
34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive[/size], as the law also says. [size=14pt]35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.

you would have asked same question from paul,questioning his authority,and accusing him of ''assuming the centre brain''brand.
not so?

Why does the church’s leadership not allow Christians to decide for themselves in matters of medical treatment when the Bible is not clear on the matter? For example, blood transfusion, vaccines and organ transplant.

that people willingly agree to surrender their freedom to choose in these matters, therefore, they can’t complain.

myjoe's response...;Yes. It would take more than merely thinking like everyone else.

(ubenedictus)....It seem d aim of this thread is to find fault, after looking critically, i dont think it is a thread worth reading. If d op really wants to point out something he should take one topic for one thread.
Peace

I am saying that your church is denying Christians, many of whom are very sincere, their God-given freedom to think and choose for themselves, even in matters the Bible is not clear on which ought to be left to the individual. This freedom can be determined from reason.

even in matters the Bible is not clear on which ought to be left to the individual.

Besides, does Watchtower admit this or are decisions slyly presented as the individual's?

BARRISTERS: @Myjoe,
Im not a mouth piece of jws,because i have explained my stand earlier,but i need to point some things out;

im revisiting this quote again to draw home some points.

It is a fact that that jws members did not make a complain about their leadership,neither do they complain of any leader or overseers robbing them on their decision-making in matters of medical treatment,and so your cry here as regards the unexisting issue of 'church’s leadership not allowing Christians to decide for themselves in matters of medical treatment' looks very empty and misleading,until you supply us a legitimate issue here,one that can be confirmed,and not the type that was unfounded which you related here earlier this way;(Your-friend's-classmate's-mother-back-in-the-day's)and attempt to shed more light on the matter proved abortive as you declined not to go into detail,only to have an afterthought on mentioning a name but in another encounter when you alledged to be 8 yrsold,to make up the story,while the first one concerning the woman was abandoned by you,

so supply a legitimate issue that you can sustain here that the jws leadership was accused by a victim of not allowing him or her to decide in matters relating to blood.i will be glad to see that so that we can continue from there.but as it is now,nothing like that exist.

your above quote again above,is uncalled for the first place in its entirety,
and nothing appart from a seeming fabricated and a calculated attempt as you make it sound as if someone is being denied an advantange like the one that cause eve to commit the first sin,innorder to discredit the leadership of jehovahswitneses by unfounded allegations which do not even exist,or which the members do not even share or aware of, why do i say that;

1, you are the only one at least on this forum who in your own discretion, accuses the leadership of jws of 'not allowing Christians to decide for themselves in matters of medical treatment when the Bible is not clear on the matter' jumping several issues progresively such as;

(1)you did not even accept the fact that their leaders are even qualified to lead them in the first place,and maybe the members share the idea with you that they accept the direction of their leadership or not,

before

(2)proceeding on blood related matters,

and

(3)the issue that maybe the bible is clear or not

or

(4)what constitutes ones acceptance of the bible inspired instructions,and the fact that if Myjoe sees the Bible as a mere textbook filled with opinions or that should not be taken so seriously,orMyjoe's personal belief that the bible is filled with ambiguities, and based on that every other member of jws should accept Myjoe's eye opener at all cost,and that since there are alledgedposibilities that makes the bible ambigous and as such the jw members should now go on to demand that the leadership should denounce belief from following bible counsels found in the bible due to an alledged ambiguity and follow Myjoe's own concept.

andits just laughable when you said that bible is not clear on the matter of Blood.

instead of telling me that Myjoe is not clear,nowmyjoe in a desperate bid to create a case where there is none choose to speak for people who dont even share his own view and idea talkless of talking on their behalf(i will touch that briefly)

and after explaning to you and proving to you that the members of jws 'willingly studied and make reseach on their own,can choose to signify their intention to be a full member by baptism'or may choose not to,and that does not stop the person from participating in some aspect of the worship or being greeted as a brother/sister, and therefore if one choose to proceed for baptism,then he or she have accepted the leadership's direction from God,which is different from 'surrendering freedom to choose' as you further put it below;did i mention 'surrender?' but you have just help me to fill in the gap,making the sentence misleading;

this proclamation above on your part after explanations now shows that there is the need to pay moore attention to how you understands,and your standards used in evaluating matters rather than feeding you with more and more facts.

let me put something forward here to prove you wrong,andplsdont think that i want you to be convinced,but because your standards used for understanding scriptural matters still need to be known first, then discussed and evaluated to form possibly common grounds with the bible standards, or maybe it may not even be outrightlyneccesarily to try that dialogue .

But get these straight;

[b]No member of jws is under coersion of anytype from their leadership not to accept blood, but a member choose on his own wheather to take a blood or accept an alternative blood boosting medications.

this is a decision that a member choose to consider when he/she weigh considering his/her full trust on the bible's inspired guidance on blood issue,

here are [b]some scripture that a member on his/her own considers first to make his/her decisions

based on clear instructions which he or she belived, an instruction being agreed upon durind the first christian era;

In a conference occurred in 49 C.E., in which the apostles and older men of Jerusalem who served as a central body of elders for all Christians held a discussion. In this discussion, Jesus’ half brother James brought to the council’s attention certain essential things that he deemed important to include in their decisions, in particular, "to abstain from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood." (Acts 15:19-21)

He referred back to the writings of Moses, which reveal that even before the Law was given, God had disapproved of immoral sex relations, idolatry and the eating of blood, which would include eating the flesh of strangled animals containing blood.
There are two different issues that are sorted out;

1,Among the Christian gatherings were the jewish law teachers,[b]who still canvassed the need for non-jews known as gentiles to get circumcised as it used to be before under the law,so as to be to be reconcilled to the christianfaith,and it was noted this way;
Acts 15:23-25;
23 They wrote this letter by them:

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,

To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law” —to whom we gave no such commandment—

but

A formal declaration in verse 16-17 evidently showing that the gentiles or non-jews have been reconciled with God and circumcision's burden which they trouble the non-jews with is now unneccesary,this way (bold)

Acts 15:19 and
19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:

verse 15 above shows the extent of the burden,that is the circumcision, but were they given outright freedom?no, how we knew this can be read in later part of verse 28 '' than these necessary things''

pronouncing the content of verses 29 ' these necessary things':

29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.[g] If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

looking at the greek meaning of abstain as used in the context will not mean the same thing with myjoe's own meaning;

ἀπέχομαι

apechomai

ap-ekh'-om-ahee

[size=14pt]to hold oneself {off}[/size] that {is} refrain: - abstain.

so,a true christian accept this as inspired direction from God throungh his servants/leaders.

BARRISTERS:
paul distinguished 'those that are outside' saying that the christians 'will need to get out of the world'(1 cor 5:10) which hereinafter means that 'a proffesedchristian that is called a brother, is not in the same category in anywaywhatsover with those outside the christian faith whose judjementpaul refers to God,butpaul signify apportioning some measure of discipline to anyone who clearly violates what he wrote to the christians (1 cor 5:11).

the only thing that can make someone says that this is not clear to him can be traced to a 'distorted' understanding.

@Myjoe,

Im touching this part again because you have rejected buiding logical common grounds earlier,when we both agree on bringing issue on one-by one to be meaningfull,but you only copy part of a discussion built to a level and want me to buy it, below are part of your reply, just to remind you,

BARRISTERS:
before i proceed here, do you agree that it takes 'more than just mere thinking like others' to be involved in managing Gods people?
i dont need questions please, but give a yes or no, because, this is the area that actually defines the role of leadership of Gods people.
dont answer with questions pls.

MyJoe:
Yes. It would take more than merely thinking like everyone else.

Your earlier response above confirms that you are not interested in logical building of a topic for discussion despite my plea for a meaningfull discussion that can also benefit others, and that assertion was echoed lately where someone who is not even a jw's (ubenedictus) observe and said this below;

im pointing this earlier process out so that when i start adressing the issue the way it merits your suited well ways here,itshould'nt be a surprise.

now back to your earlier claim,


inadressing this issue above again from this particular direction that you choose;
we should have build up the foundation of:
what constitutes jws as an orgaisation,
their leadership..Annoited or not,members who are called brothers/sisters,
then their beliefs and those that seemed to be unclear to you must have been built up in discussion between myself and you,and that can also serve as a reference without complicating matters,even for onlookers here.
but since you refuse that, and you choose to deliberately enter into the heart of the discussion,then i will only assume that you only read about jws,but could not have the patient to examine their ways before you form a conclusion, so;

Watchtower is not in anywayguity of anything here other than your misconception which i have treated above,except if you can be honest to appologise,but i dont even think they will need your apology.

is that clear now, so you can see that jwschristian org. only guides members to follow and not force anybody here because every member reads and understands this before willingly accepting to follow what is written inside their own bible,of which myjoe is making it to look as if the members have a secret oath, but we can see now that what you term as depriving of God giving freedom is due to what you termed as 'to determine from reason' of which members agreed to follow the same rules that govern the first century christians.read again for clarity before you starts to say 'acts as free men' or your earlier bible verse that you quoted but could not sustain,this one below has encapsulate that and it has also given an extent to its vaidity,read;

BARRISTERS: @truthslight

let me handle this pls, there is a pattern to handle matters, thanks.

truthislight: @myjoe

1. the fact is that JW dont take blood or it main components.

To me, this is the blood itself also.
They are the main parts that makes up the blood. Eg, red blood, white blood.

But the extractions from platelet are different extractions and are not the main blood component this i think are different issues from the main blood parts.

So, when you bunch every every as fractions, it is not as clear as you put it "blood fractions", there are differences and parts extractions.

So, making an absolute statement that the JW dont take blood fractions is not entirely correct.

It depends on the parts of the fractions.
So it is a yes and a no.

2. On the issue of organ tramsplant the JW dont have an order for that just as the bible does not.

IT IS A MATTER OF INDIVIDUAL CONSCIENCES.

I believe that will put this issues to rest.
I had to confirm those to clear this issues up.

frosbel: There are five important facts to remember about the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower Organization.

1. They have accepted the Organization as the Prophet of God.(You are twisting things here. Jesus Christ has a "faithful and discreet slave class which he has appointed has domestics, to give them their food at the proper time".

In the first century when they had the problem of the circumcision, they went to Jerusalem where the Governing Body resolved the issue(Acts 15). If the congregations rejected the directive from the governing council, would they not be rejecting the one that appointed them(Luke 10:16)

The head of the Congregation has appointed one mouthpiece. God is a God of peace and not disorder. This has prevented the kind of disorder so prevalent in many churches today where different kind of teachings prevail Its so bad that some pastors do not invite other pastors in their churches. This is not the will of God.(Mark 3:24)

2. They have accepted the Organization as God's sole channel for His truth.(Yes- Ephesians 4:5. There can only be one truth! Just one. Believe whatever you want but that is the truth (Matthew 7:13,14). Many false prophets nowadays reign presenting themselves as sheep meanwhile they turn out to be oppress

In our Kingdom halls the opposite happens. The elders who take the lead are not paid. They are called brothers(Matthew 23:8-13) There is not special seat for anyone.Nobody seeks prominence(Matthew 23:1-7) A monthly account is given on how monies received is spent. There are no ushers but rather a contribution box somewhere in the kingdom hall.(Matthew 6:3,I have never heard a brother say he can not come for meetings because he has no money!

Jesus told his opposers that even if they reject his teachings, they should accept the many witnesses borne about him Pls read John 5:31-41) Our teachings should not be the only way of knowing what we preach is the truth(1 Peter 2:12, 1 Peter 3:16). Even Saul was not converted through preaching. Jesus said that "by their fruits you shall know them". Pls find out more about our fruitage.

3. They believe that to reject the Organization is to reject God.(Read above)

4. They believe that only the Organization can interpret the Bible; as individuals they are unable to do so.(This is either is a twist or an exaggeration.

We do not believe in blind faith. We thoroughly reject it(Acts 17:11). That is why we always use the scripture like Appollos to prove what we preach(Acts 18:28). No Witness was ever brainwashed into becoming a beleiver (1 Timothy 3:14)



5. They believe the Watchtower Magazine contains God's truth, directed by Him, through the Organization.(Yes. But we have several publications, books and CDS. They are all bible aids.



What does the Organization and Watchtower Magazine teach that is in conflict with Orthodox Christianity?

1. That Jesus is a created being/a creature.(The bible in Collosians 1:15 says that Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation" and verse 16 said he helped to create all other things. That is why is he called the only begotten son of God has he was the only person made directly by Jehovah. All others things were made with him(Proverbs 18:22-18: 31)

2. That Jesus is actually Michael the Archangel (In Jude 9, it says that when Michael the Archangel had...", it conveys the impression that there is only one archangel and which means chief of angels. Then in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 it says that the "Lord will descend with an archangel voice and with God's trumpet".
3. That Jesus was not resurrected bodily, but as a spirit being.

4. That Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 (secretly to the Organization)(Wrong! When Jesus resurrected, He did not immediate get kingdom power(Psalms 110:1). It was only in 1914 he began ruling as king in heaven with tumultous consequences for mankind Revelations 12:7-12). This what the start of "the last days of these system of things"

5. That Jesus was only a man when on earth, not the Word Become flesh.(We believe the word became flesh. We simply do not accept that he is God (Isaiah 42:. He himself acknowledged he was not equal to God(John 8:32)

6. That the Holy Spirit is only an active force, not the person of God.Yes(Genesis 1:2, Isaiah 40:26)

7. That Hell is simply the grave. (Please visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna and read)

What punishment did God give Adam- to dust you are and to dust you shall return (Genesis 3:19). Romans 6:23 says the wages sin pays is death. 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9 says they shall undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction.
2 Peter 2: 6 says by "reducing the city cities of Sodom and Gomorah to ashes, he set a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come! Revelations says evildoers will be thrown into the Lake of Fire which means "the Second Death". It stands for everlasting destruction.

What is death- Eccl 9:5,10 says the dead are conscious of nothing at all. This also ryhmes with Psalms 146:3-4.

The teaching about hell has its origins in false teachings when apostasy began and started twisting bible teachings( Acts 20:29,30, 1 Timothy 4:3-4, 2 Timothy 4: 1-5, 2 Peter 2 :1-3).

Also what has entrenched this false teaching is the mislantranslation of the scriptures from the original languages Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic.

Below for example are 4 different interpretation of Matthew 10:28. See what the word translated Hell in Jewish bibles and go look up the word in wikipedia or simply search for it in Google.

I wish you the best!


New International Version

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell

Matthew 10:28 (Complete Jewish Bible)
“Do not fear those who kill the body but are powerless to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Gei-Hinnom.

Mattityahu 10:28 (Orthodox Jewish Bible)

And do not fear those who kill the basar (flesh), but are unable to kill the nefesh (soul); but rather fear the One who is able to destroy both basar and nefesh in Gehinnom.


Matthew 10:28 (Young's Literal Translation)
28 `And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

Please visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna to have further knowledge about what Gehenna is

7. That Heaven's doors is open to only 144,000. Not all righteous people are going to Heaven(2 Peter 3:13, Revelations 21:3-4) Jehovah made this earth for humans. It is what the bible says (Psalms 115:16, Isaiah 45:18)

8. That the majority of Witnesses must remain on earth- Yes and not a bad idea either (1 Corinthians 2:10)

9. That salvation is found only through the Organization.(Already amswered)

10. That it must be maintained by energetic works for the Organization until the end when one may merit eternal life on a paradise earth. (You are twisting things here. Our work is for Jehovah God and to save people .(1 Corinthians 3:9, Ezekiel 33:1-6,1 Timothy 4:16,

The Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe or teach some of the very basic tenets of Christian doctrine.

They deny:

1. The Omnipresence of God. (Can you please tell me in the bible where it says God is omnipresence? The word does not even exist in the bible! King Solomon called Heaven His "established place of dwelling"(1 Kings 8:49). Isaiah says God is dwelling above the surface of the earth. Isaiah 40:22).

Rather Jehovah God from a distance, yes from a distance (as a pentecostal sang) sees all that we do, whether good or bad (Psalms 11:4-5,Hebrews 4:13)

2. The Deity of Christ. (Jesus asked Peter 2 questions. First, "Who are men saying the Son of Man is'? and Peter gave a series of answers. Jesus now asked him "You, though, who do you say I am?" And Peter answered "You are the Christ the Son of the Living God." And Jesus said"Happy you are son of Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my father who is in the heavens did".(Matthew 16:13-17) From Peter's inspired answer we can conclude who the Christ was-Matthew 4:10,John 3:16, John 5:17,30,John 8:32, 1 Corinthians 11:3, 1 Corinthians 15:27,28)) .

3. The bodily resurrection of Christ. (I don't understand this)

4. The visible return of Christ. (I can not do justice to this piece here)

5. The Promise of Heaven to all believers.(Was Adam placed in Eden or in Heaven? Or is Eden in Heaven? Psalms 115:16 says that" As regards the Heavens, to Jehovah the Heavens belong, But the earth he has given to the sons of men. Isaiah says 45:18 says Jehovah did not create the earth simply for nothing but formed it to be inhabited. Is it not humans who will inhabit? The bible does not promise Heaven for all believers. It is not a scriptural belief.

Do you know what those who go to heaven will exactly do there? I will appreciate it if you can answer it here.

6. The necessity of the New Birth for all believers.( Only those going to heaven will have a new birth. 1 Peter 1: 3-4 says that those who have the new birth have their citizenship in the heavens. Since he has given the earth to the sons of men, most believers can therefore not be born again.)