Logicboy, u done gone and started the debate, dude!
Funny thing about these biological machines: they've got self-awareness and can at their own desire throw off programming foreign to their own #psychological# make-up. But that's a whole debate in itself, no?
As for this truth of yours, meeeehn...I don't know. Even scientists are skeptical about scientific laws. They hold them very carefully because the next experiment might make mincemeat of them hehe. You say, for instance, that there's no evidence of God's existence, and I ask, "how come? What do you call this great diversity of things and coincidences that we see all around us every coincidental day?" Gee, they didn't just happen to wake up one day out of nothing and decide to be, did they? But that's one huge debate, dude. Typing on a java phone really does something to the fun of such a debate, don't u know But we'll see what we can do with it, now won't we?

Zuby77, how about I tell you that you don't exist? You want proof? Well, come here right now and stand before me and I'll believe that u do lol. Don't say that because I'm responding to a message from you that I'm affirming that you do exist because that'll only prove out my point o. But you do make a good point when you say, "the god these churches acclaim" or something like that. I believe that a conception of God cannot reasonably be said to be Him anymore that a reflection of a person's physical features can be said to be them (we'd have to account for the quality of reflecting surface, wouldn't we? And keep in mind that a picture's just an intersection of light rays while the person it shows is a very solid, very substantial entity). Just like any other person, He (if He is a Person) must have nuances (that's the word, right? English! <sigh> and peculiarities of character, no? So, while some religion might define His Character one way (usually according to their idiosyncracies), He may be nothing like that at all. So when they appeal to that conception of Him, they receive echoes of their own words for all their trouble. I believe that the only true knowledge we can have of God will come by very personal experience with Him (same way we learn anything and anyone else actually), something that cannot be awed by argument or vanquished by sentiment. And perhaps these days of questioning are the right days in which to pursue that path. Do you disagree?

aletheia:
^
Another typically shallow, knee-jerk, ill-thought out and illogical response. Nothing in the Bible verses you quoted supports your mindset that a "£1,000 gross profit" or "making money" is a "fulfilled life". Certainly the import of Jesus' words in no way validates your shallow, callow and miserable worldview.

Ode, I am not bound by your caveman book called the bible. I live a material life in a material world in a material body. I dont lie to myself. Money is almost everything in this world.


As for you, you are a hypocrite that can not even live by the standards preached by the bible and Jesus christ and you have the nerve to call me shallow?

Jesus was right to people like you sheep!

Logicboy, u done gone and started the debate, dude!
Funny thing about these biological machines: they've got self-awareness and can at their own desire throw off programming foreign to their own #psychological# make-up. But that's a whole debate in itself, no?
As for this truth of atheism's, meeeehn...I don't know. Even scientists are skeptical about scientific laws. They hold them very carefully because the next experiment might make mincemeat of them hehe. Atheism says, for instance, that there's no evidence of God's existence, and I ask, "how come? What do you call this great diversity of things and coincidences that we see all around us every coincidental day?" Gee, they didn't just happen to wake up one day out of nothing and decide to be, did they? But that's one huge debate, dude. Typing on a java phone really does something to the fun of such a debate, don't u know But we'll see what we can do with it, now won't we?

Zuby77, first off, I didn't ask u to prove anything to me o, just said the product of yo lifestyle should be enough proof of the correctness of yo point of view, but how about I tell you that you don't exist? You want proof? Well, come here right now and stand before me and I'll believe that u do lol. Don't say that because I'm responding to a message from you that I'm affirming that you do exist because that'll only prove out my point o. But you do make a good point when you say, "the one zealots believe to reside somewhere in the sky" or something like that. I believe that a conception of God cannot reasonably be said to be Him anymore that a reflection of a person's physical features can be said to be them (we'd have to account for the quality of reflecting surface, wouldn't we? And keep in mind that a picture's just an intersection of light rays while the person it shows is a very solid, very substantial entity). Just like any other person, He (if He is a Person) must have nuances (that's the word, right? English! <sigh> and peculiarities of character, no? So, while some religion might define His Character one way (usually according to their idiosyncracies), He may be nothing like that at all. So when they appeal to that conception of Him, they receive echoes of their own words for all their trouble. I believe that the only true knowledge we can have of God will come by very personal experience with Him (same way we learn anything and anyone else actually), something that cannot be awed by argument or vanquished by sentiment. And perhaps these days of questioning are the right days in which to pursue that path. Do you disagree?

Ihedinobi: Logicboy, u done gone and started the debate, dude!
Funny thing about these biological machines: they've got self-awareness and can at their own desire throw off programming foreign to their own #psychological# make-up. But that's a whole debate in itself, no?
As for this truth of yours, meeeehn...I don't know. Even scientists are skeptical about scientific laws. They hold them very carefully because the next experiment might make mincemeat of them hehe. You say, for instance, that there's no evidence of God's existence, and I ask, "how come? What do you call this great diversity of things and coincidences that we see all around us every coincidental day?" Gee, they didn't just happen to wake up one day out of nothing and decide to be, did they? But that's one huge debate, dude. Typing on a java phone really does something to the fun of such a debate, don't u know But we'll see what we can do with it, now won't we?

Zuby77, how about I tell you that you don't exist? You want proof? Well, come here right now and stand before me and I'll believe that u do lol. Don't say that because I'm responding to a message from you that I'm affirming that you do exist because that'll only prove out my point o. But you do make a good point when you say, "the god these churches acclaim" or something like that. I believe that a conception of God cannot reasonably be said to be Him anymore that a reflection of a person's physical features can be said to be them (we'd have to account for the quality of reflecting surface, wouldn't we? And keep in mind that a picture's just an intersection of light rays while the person it shows is a very solid, very substantial entity). Just like any other person, He (if He is a Person) must have nuances (that's the word, right? English! <sigh> and peculiarities of character, no? So, while some religion might define His Character one way (usually according to their idiosyncracies), He may be nothing like that at all. So when they appeal to that conception of Him, they receive echoes of their own words for all their trouble. I believe that the only true knowledge we can have of God will come by very personal experience with Him (same way we learn anything and anyone else actually), something that cannot be awed by argument or vanquished by sentiment. And perhaps these days of questioning are the right days in which to pursue that path. Do you disagree?

I should have known that you're one of those guys that think that they got some solid arguments for God or religion but the have fallacies in reality.


There is no evidence for our God. None. I dont have to be a scientist to know that. None.

Ihedinobi: Logicboy, u done gone and started the debate, dude!
Funny thing about these biological machines: they've got self-awareness and can at their own desire throw off programming foreign to their own #psychological# make-up. But that's a whole debate in itself, no?
As for this truth of yours, meeeehn...I don't know. Even scientists are skeptical about scientific laws. They hold them very carefully because the next experiment might make mincemeat of them hehe. You say, for instance, that there's no evidence of God's existence, and I ask, "how come? What do you call this great diversity of things and coincidences that we see all around us every coincidental day?" Gee, they didn't just happen to wake up one day out of nothing and decide to be, did they? But that's one huge debate, dude. Typing on a java phone really does something to the fun of such a debate, don't u know But we'll see what we can do with it, now won't we?

Zuby77, how about I tell you that you don't exist? You want proof? Well, come here right now and stand before me and I'll believe that u do lol. Don't say that because I'm responding to a message from you that I'm affirming that you do exist because that'll only prove out my point o. But you do make a good point when you say, "the god these churches acclaim" or something like that. I believe that a conception of God cannot reasonably be said to be Him anymore that a reflection of a person's physical features can be said to be them (we'd have to account for the quality of reflecting surface, wouldn't we? And keep in mind that a picture's just an intersection of light rays while the person it shows is a very solid, very substantial entity). Just like any other person, He (if He is a Person) must have nuances (that's the word, right? English! <sigh> and peculiarities of character, no? So, while some religion might define His Character one way (usually according to their idiosyncracies), He may be nothing like that at all. So when they appeal to that conception of Him, they receive echoes of their own words for all their trouble. I believe that the only true knowledge we can have of God will come by very personal experience with Him (same way we learn anything and anyone else actually), something that cannot be awed by argument or vanquished by sentiment. And perhaps these days of questioning are the right days in which to pursue that path. Do you disagree?

I should have known that you're one of those guys that think that they got some solid arguments for God or religion but the have fallacies in reality.


There is no evidence for our God. None. I dont have to be a scientist to know that. None.

MacDaddy01:

Ode, I am not bound by your caveman book called the bible. I live a material life in a material world in a material body. I dont lie to myself. Money is almost everything in this world.


As for you, you are a hypocrite that can not even live by the standards preached by the bible and Jesus christ and you have the nerve to call me shallow?

Jesus was right to people like you sheep!

And what exactly is the point of this childish rant? You are defensive about the fact that for you making a "£1,000 gross profit" is a "fulfilled life".
By all means go ahead and make as much money as you want, you silly delusional child. No one has denied you that desire. Your paranoia and madness lies in your feeling aggrieved and frenzied that others disagree with. Your illogicality is displayed plainly: You quote Jesus and say that Jesus says we should give away our earthly possessions and yet you mock the Christians who give away their money:

MacDaddy01:
They were coming from paying tithes in church. . .

Clearly you are schizophrenic. Go take your medication, boy.

davidylan:

and what is the difference? Why does the private practice of religion PARTICULARLY by christians whip you into a frenzy? Why arent you equally in a frenzy to convince Buddhists about the truth?

Because Buddhism isn't one of the predominant imported religions negatively affecting Nigeria

aletheia:
And what exactly is the point of this childish rant? You are defensive about the fact that for you making a "£1,000 gross profit" is a "fulfilled life".
By all means go ahead and make as much money as you want, you silly delusional child. No one has denied you that desire. Your paranoia and madness lies in your feeling aggrieved and frenzied that others disagree with. Your illogicality is displayed plainly: You quote Jesus and say that Jesus says we should give away our earthly possessions and yet you mock the Christians who give away their money:

Clearly you are schizophrenic. Go take your medication, boy.

Fulfilled day is not = fulfilled life. That was a good sunday for me. I rather work than keep the sabbath day holy (giving tithes to frauds)

As for the schizoprenic part, tithe is 10% and not your full salary. Jesus said you should give all. Dumbazz




Furthermore, isnt it christians that are also receiving the tithes?

Logicboy, does my argument calculate wrong? Have you never played devil's advocate? I'm not for this belief or that belief. Whether I personally believe in God or not is not part of my argument. You base your arguments on reason and I call them into question on the same basis. I'd do the same to any rabid "christian" or moslem. Why? Because I don't believe that our beliefs are ultimate. They are subjective. They vary according to our peculiar psychological make-up and our development as we go through life. But it makes no sense to me to disavow an ultimate, because there'd be no reason at all or anything else without it. My whole point is: if u will throw stones, build a brick house. If you'll condemn other religions and chastise their adherents because they are unreasonable, then you must first prove your own stand to be reasonable.
I make incontrovertibly clear once again that I do not choose to defend any religion, especially as I subscribe to none. I do not hold truck with things that have proven injurious, but if anyone will take issue with anyone else for some perceived failure or other, they must prove their worthiness to be judge.
You are very welcome to your atheism, but I do not agree that we should all bow to it if it has fundamental failures in it.
If you're ok with it then, tell me what proof you do have that God does not exist. That is your assertion and it is only right and proper that you defend it like Zuby77 did. When I make one, I am prepared to bear the burden of proof as well.
If you like, you could call this an exercise of intellect. It doesn't have to become a personal battle of any sort. I like the fact that you're a questioner, if I didn't, I wouldn't even speak to you. So pls, let's just have a fun debate. I'm not gonna try to make you believe anything and you won't find it easy to make me believe anything either

Ihedinobi: Logicboy, does my argument calculate wrong? Have you never played devil's advocate? I'm not for this belief or that belief. Whether I personally believe in God or not is not part of my argument. You base your arguments on reason and I call them into question on the same basis. I'd do the same to any rabid "christian" or moslem. Why? Because I don't believe that our beliefs are ultimate. They are subjective. They vary according to our peculiar psychological make-up and our development as we go through life. But it makes no sense to me to disavow an ultimate, because there'd be no reason at all or anything else without it. My whole point is: if u will throw stones, build a brick house. If you'll condemn other religions and chastise their adherents because they are unreasonable, then you must first prove your own stand to be reasonable.
I make incontrovertibly clear once again that I do not choose to defend any religion, especially as I subscribe to none. I do not hold truck with things that have proven injurious, but if anyone will take issue with anyone else for some perceived failure or other, they must prove their worthiness to be judge.
You are very welcome to your atheism, but I do not agree that we should all bow to it if it has fundamental failures in it.
If you're ok with it then, tell me what proof you do have that God does not exist. That is your assertion and it is only right and proper that you defend it like Zuby77 did. When I make one, I am prepared to bear the burden of proof as well.
If you like, you could call this an exercise of intellect. It doesn't have to become a personal battle of any sort. I like the fact that you're a questioner, if I didn't, I wouldn't even speak to you. So pls, let's just have a fun debate. I'm not gonna try to make you believe anything and you won't find it easy to make me believe anything either

Burden of proof is on the believer. Atheism is not a belief. It is a disbelief.


You dont prove a negative. These are basic things about atheism, you should read first before trying to debate. This is why I have a dismissive attitude towards you.

I don't mind the dismissing attitude, I'm quite inured to it, I assure you. But you've dialled the debate further back. I was going to say that a negative does have to be defended, but there's no need to go there. Instead let me build a case for the existence of God and you can prove out the truthfulness of atheism's position by tearing it down successfully. I hope you can buy that.
Since I'm playing devil's advocate, my first proof for God's existence would be creation. As far as common sense and science can go, things cannot just spontaneously be. Their origin, as far as observation can go, has always been outside of themselves. Someone or something must make things for them to be. Hence there is a God. This God must of necessity be apart from the things He/She/It creates and therefore must be to us inscrutable and impossible to be known. If He (just picking one pronoun to help typing) cannot be known, we certainly cannot know or understand His origin. Therefore questions as to His person or character or origin cannot disprove His existence.
What say you?

MacDaddy01:


Unfortunately, humans are machines. Biological machines that can be programmed to vote against their own interest.


As for the truth, atheism states only one truth; there is no evidence for God.

My lifestyle is my lifestyle, it is subjective and in no way the "truth" niether a lie.

I very much understand that you are referring to The semitic God and as so would you as a African atheist also think African deities such as Shango or Ogun doesn't exist too. By existence I don't imply a sentient, conscious, tangible god/entity but by evidence of the supernatural effect that can be observed whenever they are applied or activated. For instance...if one swear an oath under Ayilala or Shopona or Ogun and later betrays the condition that binds such oath.....something inexplicable happen.

Ihedinobi: I don't mind the dismissing attitude, I'm quite inured to it, I assure you. But you've dialled the debate further back. I was going to say that a negative does have to be defended, but there's no need to go there. Instead let me build a case for the existence of God and you can prove out the truthfulness of atheism's position by tearing it down successfully. I hope you can buy that.
Since I'm playing devil's advocate, my first proof for God's existence would be creation. As far as common sense and science can go, things cannot just spontaneously be. Their origin, as far as observation can go, has always been outside of themselves. Someone or something must make things for them to be. Hence there is a God. This God must of necessity be apart from the things He/She/It creates and therefore must be to us inscrutable and impossible to be known. If He (just picking one pronoun to help typing) cannot be known, we certainly cannot know or understand His origin. Therefore questions as to His person or character or origin cannot disprove His existence.
What say you?

Look, after having the same debate over 300 times, it gets boring. Creationism is not science. If there is an ultimate creator, who created him or her? Creationism leads back to the same question into an infinite regress.

ghostofsparta:

I very much understand that you are referring to The semitic God and as so would you as a African atheist also think African deities such as Shango or Ogun doesn't exist too. By existence I don't imply a sentient, conscious, tangible god/entity but by evidence of the supernatural effect that can be observed whenever they are applied or activated. For instance...if one swear an oath under Ayilala or Shopona or Ogun and later betrays the condition that binds such oath.....something inexplicable happen.

Sorry, I dont believe in these practise but I see them as our culture and we should learn them but not believe it

MacDaddy01:
Fulfilled day is not = fulfilled life. That was a good sunday for me. I rather work than keep the sabbath day holy (giving tithes to frauds)

As for the schizoprenic part, tithe is 10% and not your full salary. Jesus said you should give all

SLAM DUNK!


Note that most Nigerian religionists don't understand what is meant by 'burden of proof'...anyway am feeling ya....just ride on.

@aleth
eia
I see your futile attempt to derail this topic by making a issue out of the £1,000 thing.

aletheia:
^
So making money is for you is a "fulfilled life". How typically callow and shallow.

making money is indeed very fulfilling.

I thought it might sha, but I was also counting on the freshness of perspective to keep you interested. However, creationism is not a science? I'm not even sure I'm pursuing that line. And I already answered the "if God created, what created God......?" question. That's a question you can answer. But I admit I'm getting bored with your responses too. This truth of atheism's is not proving itself out, not by intelligent questions that probe the integrity of the idea of the existence of God nor by persuasive arguments that confound the idea. It seems to me an emotional response rather than a reasonable one to whatever grouse one has with the idea of God.
It's cool, Logicboy. I think I'll let this go now. My point's made even if it's not seen or accepted and my job done. Have u a fulfilled day (or evening )

MacDaddy01:
Fulfilled day is not = fulfilled life. That was a good sunday for me. I rather work than keep the sabbath day holy (giving tithes to frauds)

As for the schizoprenic part, tithe is 10% and not your full salary. Jesus said you should give all. Dumbazz




Furthermore, isnt it christians that are also receiving the tithes?

sabbath day is from sunrise to sunset on saturday.almost all christians break that commandment of God by keeping it on sunday.the more reason why they need to learn more about their faith

MacDaddy01:


Look, after having the same debate over 300 times, it gets boring. Creationism is not science. If there is an ultimate creator, who created him or her? Creationism leads back to the same question into an infinite regress.

What makes you presume these confused Nigerian religionists understand the meaning of 'creationism'?

A lot here are Quaran/Bible-believing slaves. Most here don't read any thing apart from Bible,Qran, Dean Koontz, Mills & Boon, etc .....all they do is watch AfricaMagic, MTV Base, MTN project fame, Superstory, Big Brother Africa, eat, fornicate, peddle gossip and go to church and mosque to exhibit what I consider as a twisted sense of self-righteousness, forgiveness of weekly misdeeds and sins and fashion/wealth show off.....bunch of hypocrites....they know they can't try all that with ascetic pagan belief system.

*waka pass*

MacDaddy01:


Sorry, I dont believe in these practise but I see them as our culture and we should learn them but not believe it

the fact that you dont believe in them tells me you dont know about them.like i said earlier,i try to be conversant with different religions and i have had the fortune of working on a contract with the NTDC which required visiting every potential tourist site in the southwest.i visited almost every shrine in the southwest and i can tell you there is compelling evidence for these gods.i must state that i am not a believer in them but the adherrents of those faiths are just as dogged in defending their gods as christians and muslims.
just take a visit to the palace of the ooni of ife,or the ataoja of osogbo or even the oba of lagos.its possible you might not be allowed access into some areas but fortunately for me and my team,our NTDC tags got us into almost every part of those palaces and what we saw was bewildering.some attribute it to blackmagic,some to demons or even lucifer.

ghostofsparta:

What makes you presume these confused Nigerian religionists understand the meaning of 'creationism'?

A lot here are Quaran/Bible-believing slaves. Most here don't read any thing apart from Bible,Qran, Dean Koontz, Mills & Boon, etc .....all they do is watch AfricaMagic, MTV Base, MTN project fame, Superstory, Big Brother Africa, eat, fornicate, peddle gossip and go to church and mosque to exhibit what I consider as a twisted sense of self-righteousness, forgiveness of weekly misdeeds and sins and fashion/wealth show off.....bunch of hypocrites....they know they can't try all that with ascetic pagan belief system.

Thank you man. A voice of reason!

Delafruita:
the fact that you dont believe in them tells me you dont know about them.like i said earlier,i try to be conversant with different religions and i have had the fortune of working on a contract with the NTDC which required visiting every potential tourist site in the southwest.i visited almost every shrine in the southwest and i can tell you there is compelling evidence for these gods.i must state that i am not a believer in them but the adherrents of those faiths are just as dogged in defending their gods as christians and muslims.
just take a visit to the palace of the ooni of ife,or the ataoja of osogbo or even the oba of lagos.its possible you might not be allowed access into some areas but fortunately for me and my team,our NTDC tags got us into almost every part of those palaces and what we saw was bewildering.some attribute it to blackmagic,some to demons or even lucifer.

Lol....the people that are into these practices, are they not human like us? No need to fear!

ghostofsparta:

SLAM DUNK!


Note that most Nigerian religionists don't understand what is meant by 'burden of proof'...anyway am feeling ya....just ride on.

@aleth
eia
I see your futile attempt to derail this topic by making a issue out of the £1,000 thing.

I have not read this thread and i cannot believe that any one else will be st.upid enough to read it.

ghostofsparta:

What makes you presume these confused Nigerian religionists understand the meaning of 'creationism'?

A lot here are Quaran/Bible-believing slaves. Most here don't read any thing apart from Bible,Qran, Dean Koontz, Mills & Boon, etc .....all they do is watch AfricaMagic, MTV Base, MTN project fame, Superstory, Big Brother Africa, eat, fornicate, peddle gossip and go to church and mosque to exhibit what I consider as a twisted sense of self-righteousness, forgiveness of weekly misdeeds and sins and fashion/wealth show off.....bunch of hypocrites....they know they can't try all that with ascetic pagan belief system.

HEY!!! are you talking to me I said are you talking to me? I don't see anyone here .. so you must be talking to me Allah Akbarr!!!

Ihedinobi: I thought it might sha, but I was also counting on the freshness of perspective to keep you interested. However, creationism is not a science? I'm not even sure I'm pursuing that line. And I already answered the "if God created, what created God......?" question. That's a question you can answer. But I admit I'm getting bored with your responses too. This truth of atheism's is not proving itself out, not by intelligent questions that probe the integrity of the idea of the existence of God nor by persuasive arguments that confound the idea. It seems to me an emotional response rather than a reasonable one to whatever grouse one has with the idea of God.
It's cool, Logicboy. I think I'll let this go now. My point's made even if it's not seen or accepted and my job done. Have u a fulfilled day (or evening )

to be honest,i just glanced through your posts because they were incomprehensible.i probably have my low level of education to thank for that or maybe you just didnt lay out your points sequentially.whichever,i didnt get to read them in entirety but i could perceive that you are the typical christian whose only argument is "God created the world","if God didnt,then who".i have to commend logicboy/macdaddy for dutifully replying your posts and i believe he has made most of the necessary points.my question for you is simple:
give one evidence outside the Bible for the eistence of Yahweh

Delafruita:
give one evidence outside the Bible for the eistence of Yahweh GOD

Your magnificent brain.

Deep Sight:

Your magnificent brain.

Where have you been? Been expecting you!

Deep Sight:
I have not read this thread and i cannot believe that any one else will be st.upid enough to read it.

i have not read this comment and i cannot believe that anyone else will be st.upid enough to comment on a comment he has not read

MacDaddy01:


Where have you been? Been expecting you!

The title put me off. What ridiculous nonsense.

This self-congratulatory fellow has not even scratched the surface of what many eminent atheists on this forum have put forth. His threads a childish and st.upid, shallow, devoid of intellect or scholarship, and frankly irritating.

Delafruita:
i have not read this comment and i cannot believe that anyone else will be st.upid enough to comment on a comment he has not read

O shat ap.