LagosShia:

they are different things.but faith must be based on reason.

please where did you find it written that Ayyub (as) got all his children killed by the "devil" to test his faith? and can trial be based on reason or not?

Cheers01:


Isnt it Iblis that went to God to test Ayyub? Did Iblis shake the foundation of the structure that the children were in and it collapsed on them~?

LagosShia:

please i just want you to show me where that is written and what is exactly written before we discuss anything further.

Cheers01:



http://www.jannah.org/morearticles/50.html

LagosShia:

please copy and post the Islamic text where that is stated.i did not ask you for a web link.

Cheers01:


Why is it beneath his majesty? Was creating Shaytan not supposed to be a majestic thing?

vedaxcool:
Then Job told her:
"In that case I am ashamed to call on my Lord to
remove the hardship, for I
have not suffered longer than the years of good
health and plenty. It seems
yourfaith has weakened and you are dissatisfied with
the fate of Allah. If I
ever reagin health, I swear I will punish you with a
hundred strokes! From
this day onward, I forbid myself to eat or drink
anything from your hand.
Leave me alone and let my Lord do with me as He
pleases."
(Bukhari)

Cheers tanks for the link, we muslim are again reminded of Job, the patient servant of Allah, may Allah strengthen our faiths! Amin

vedaxcool: I wonder why the willing learner didn't ask lagosshia what in sensible in people wiping themselves, slapping their chest, injuring themselves to commemorate the matrydom of Hussien. Yeah the intellect is "one" of the five basis for drawing laws indeed!


Lol! This question has no basis to my point, it does not aid ur case in any value! It is a pity ur teacher only prefers to teach addition and subtraction! the point remains it is beneath Allah to move a rock!

vedaxcool: It is beneath Allah's majesty to move a rock! Period! And just because u r too unsound to think and draw the right conclusions will not invalidate that fact!

Cheers01:


Why is it beneath Allah? Do you think for Allah now? Just because you are too pot-bellied to lift a rock...............

vedaxcool: For someone to ask Do you think for Allah and then again asked us question pertaining what Allah will do underscores my point that is, serial inability to reason and draw appropriate conclusions! It is this sort of contradiction and unstable questions that leaves the sane ignoring ur posts!

And indeed it is beneath Allah's majesty to move rock!

Cheers01:
Do you think for Allah now?

vedaxcool: I wonder why the willing learner didn't ask lagosshia what in sensible in people wiping themselves, slapping their chest, injuring themselves to commemorate the matrydom of Hussien. Yeah the intellect is "one" of the five basis for drawing laws indeed!

LagosShia: Sister "uplawal",

you asked yesterday a question about commemorating the event of Karbala on the 10th of the holy month of Muharram also known as the day of ashura and its rituals (beating oneself,crying and cutting oneself).

first you need to know that crying should be a natural reaction to something sad you sense.i personally on several occassions have being moved to tears.it doesnt necessarily have to be on ashura.sometimes when a reciter of the Holy Quran has a nice voice and you ponder upon the meanings,you are moved to tears.also when commemorating the matrydom of Imam Hussain on ashura if the reciter has a good voice and uses good expressions to convey the suffereings and pain of Imam Hussain and the Ahlul-Bayt in Karbala,you as a person with humane feelings will be moved to tears.even if it were not Imam Hussain,if anyone human undergo what the Imam suffered you will feel great sorrow.how much more when the person that went that suffering and sacrifice was your Imam and the Imam of humanity and the grandson of the greatest of mankind,the Prophet Muhammad ?

as for hitting the chest,that is a symbolic act that has a meaning relevant to what happened at Karbala.its has to do more with a symbolic kind of rememberance like the way some people do a "V-sign" on some occassions.

cutting oneself is a philosophical issue.even among the shia,not everyone cuts himself and cause blood to flow.those who do it say that no matter how much one tries to feel sorry for Imam Hussain,nothing is too much.therefore the cutting of oneself is meant to symbolize a willing soul ready to sacrifice and die for the Imam in loyalty and love to him and the Prophet Muhammad and the Ahlul-Bayt.they say that because of those who betrayed Imam Hussain and the Imam was killed in an abandoned and very sorrowful way along with his family members and even his 6 months old baby,they want to shed blood for the Imam and die at his service to please Allah.if the Imam was willing not to compromise for the sake of Islam and was so loyal to Allah,we also should emulate that spirit.

some of our scholars do support this view.others do not.those who do not support this view hold that it is haram to inflict oneself or harm oneself.they say that Imam Hussain was beheaded and his blood was shed by the ungodly,so why should we do to ourselves what the evil people did to our Imam?if we want to show love to our Imam,we can do that by remembering him and attending lectures on the commemoration of the day and carrying out symbolic acts like beating our chests (lightly) to bring back the memory of Karbala.we can remember the Imams symbolically and spiritually and islamically without hurting ourselves.an alternative like the saudi shias in the eastern parts of saudi arabia do,they donate their blood (for transfusion) to hospitals.those healthy individuals can donate their blood to help people survive and keep them alive like the way the Imam sacrificed his blood so that Islam will remain alive and healthy just the way it was revealed to his grandfather the Prophet Muhammad (sa).those against blood-letting also think the image of shias cutting themselves gives a bad impression in the minds of non-believers.those who cut themselves think they are not indebted to anyone to prove their enlightenment or sense of civilization when their acts is purely an act of devotion and sacrifice.

As you can see,this act is solely a matter of intentions.therefore a shia is free to show his love the way he feels best in accordance with the fatwas of his Marji (scholar of highest authority in shia islam that issue fatwas,the likes of ayatollah Khomeini and ayatollah Sistani).

Based on intention,no one would dictate to you how to express your intentions or not to.on this note,the issue does not act a divisive issue because we all think that everyone mourning for Imam Hussain is doing his best to remember the Imam and bring back the lessons of Karbala to life in our modern times.

Personally I have never inflicted wounds upon myself.i do beat my chest and I cry to an unimaginable extent when the Sheikh or Sayyid narrates Imam Hussain’s sufferings in Karbala and that of his family members and loyal friends including his six months old baby.as I am typing this,I am only managing to control myself from shedding tears.there is a saying that “Karbala is a wound that never heals in the heart of the believer”.i really feel sad and spiritually overcome when I hear anything about Imam Hussain.if you truly attend the commemoration on the 10th of Muharram which is just a few weeks away,you will understand what I am saying.you should first try and study the event itself and the sacrifice each member that was matyred in Karbala did and refrained from doing for the sake of Islam and the Imam.the event is the epitome of islamic sacrifice and the love for Allah.


As I was saying,I believe in sincerity.i believe if I can be moved to shed tears,I should also be moved to an unconscious state where I can cut myself.but consciously I don’t think it is reasonable for me to inflict wounds on my body.ofcourse I have to mourn Imam Hussain,that is a sunnah of the Prophet.but I can do that in more than one way to express my grief,sadness and love for the Imam.i don’t think it should be done cold-bloodedly.i am not saying those who cut themselves are acting or are being hypocritical.may Allah reward them for their good intentions and Allah will surely reward me for mine too.all of us have the same goal but using different methods.at the end we are all one and we do love Imam Hussain above ourselves.may my soul and the souls of my parents be sacrificed for the sake of Imam Hussain.
https://www.nairaland.com/554337/imam-ali-own-words/1#7215539

LagosShia:

[size=14pt]‘Tatbeer’ is not azadari (Ashura) but wasting it, says Ayatullah Khamenei [/size]
By: Sheikh M Khurasani

TEHRAN, Iran: Supreme leader of Iran Ayatullah Ali Al-Khamenei has said Tatbeer, or Qama-zeni (making a cut on head to gush out blood to signify grief on the martyrdom of Hazret Imam Hosein, peace be on him) is not permissible.

Speaking to a gathering of religious scholars, speakers of Hoseini pulpit and people of the holy city of Qom, the Ayatullah said: “iin mokhalefat ba azadari neest, mokhalefat ba zaya kerdan azadari ast…” [This opposition is not of azadari but of wasting azadari (Hoseini mourning)].

source:

http://www.jafariyanews.com/2k8_news/jan/14tatbeer_khamenei.htm

Cheers01:

Are you saying that the story that I put up there is not accepted in islam?


There is something dodgy here

LagosShia:

please,i am here to discuss with you.bring forth the evidence that it was God that "sent" shaitain to test Job (as).

Cheers01:
Whatever the case, Allah allowed the death of Job's children.

LagosShia:

You know something? don't you think Allah (swt) also allowed the death of my grandparents and relatives? He also allowed the death of over 150 people in the DANA flight.

in Islam,death is not punishment or suffering.it is the entrance to a new world for the individual.every exit is an entrance in life.it is the passage "to meet God".it can be seen as trial or test for the surviving relatives.it is a test of faith of how much they believe in God and the truth.and from the story of Job (as)-i am not sure of the specific tests he underwent- but from the Quranic narrative,he passed those tests and his faith in Allah (swt) was solid.

Cheers01:

Then by all means, your children should enjoy the same fate as Job's. Amin
You agree?

fellis: This topic wasn't deleted?
Anyway my opinion: Religion thrives largely on faith not logic so it would not be right to apply logic alone when answering a question like this.
According to religion, omnipotence is something that can only be applied to a Creator that lives in a realm that is greater than the earthly realm. As a result of this, the explanation of omnipotence or the definition of omnipotence would be different/much greater in the realm in which the Creator lives.
Understanding what omnipotence truly means is likely to be limited to those of us in a world in which intellectual processes are limited and not as great as what is taught by religions, to exist in the higher realms.
So my opinion is that we can only grasp part of the real meaning of omnipotence since we live in a world where it is not possible.

maclatunji:

If nobody has told you before, I am telling you now that you are brilliant! Well said!

LagosShia:

hmmmm...i hope you guys are not looking for wife.you and Cheers aka MacDaddy aka logicboy.

LagosShia:

hmmmm...i hope you guys are not looking for wife.you and Cheers aka MacDaddy aka logicboy.

maclatunji:

I appreciate brilliance when I see it. If I want to tell her stuff, I will, I am a very direct person. So, leave the matter. My compliment stands.

LagosShia:

i see! lover boy moderator.

LagosShia:

the concept of faith without logic or rational is aimed at making religion and God look senseless,aimless and irrational.

Lagosshia: based on Shia Islam,that is therefore a wrong concept.in Shia Islam,the intellect is one of the five basis for drawing laws in the sharia or in Islamic jurisprudence.there is nothing that God made or said that cannot be rationalized or found to be true and logical.you need to reconsider your words.

maclatunji:

If nobody has told you before, I am telling you now that you are brilliant! Well said!

Cheers01:



Ah Fellis! Great answer.

You sound like a skeptic.

fellis:
I am not a skeptic.

Cheers01:


I understand. You dont have to publicly admit it

fellis:
Cheers what is it now? I don't want your skeptic title, stop giving me it.