₦airaland Forum

This thread got completely out of topic and turned to a dick measuring contest

To be frank, Kenya can't be ahead of Nigeria in all aspects, that's impossible. Even mighty China isn't ahead of Nigeria in all aspects, like in the movies sub-industry. But it's a fact that Kenya is ahead of Nigeria in more aspects than those in which Nigeria is ahead of Kenya.

Kenya has a higher literacy rate, more roads and rail per capita, more connection to electricity as a percentage, more developed retail Industry, much diversified (though smaller) manufacturing industry, more banking per capita, Mombasa port handles about as much as what all Nigerian ports combined handle, a more diversified economy, it's even an exporter of refined petroleum despite not producing a single barrel of crude oil.

Nigeria has a larger gdp per capita, more resource exploitation, a more developed entertainment industry, a larger (though less diversified) manufacturing industry, larger banking sector, larger agricultural production etc.

If Nairobi, a city of 3.5m people can boast a same sized (or larger) skyline, almost as many motorways, and more malls than Lagos, a city of 21m people. If Nakuru, a city of 400k ppl can front enough infrastructure and sophistication to compete with Ibadan, a city of 3m ppl, then a lot can be concluded about the 2 countries' development level from this 2 comparisons.

Just my thoughts, at 4 times the population, one would expect Nigeria to have at least 4 cities of Nairobi's status and say 4 of that of Mombasa as a snapshot. One would expect the Nigerian Govt to have a budget 4 times that of Kenya, road infrastructure at least 4 times longer, all these just to reach Kenya's development level. but we all know that's far from the reality.

There are some sidelined African countries that are quite advanced. The likes of Mauritius, Botswana equatorial guinea and the Maghreb countries

@ Aresa

Good long read with some facts here and there and misconceptions here and there too. But don't dismiss 'little' Kenya just yet

Per capita income is a terrible indicator of a country's development level largely because you a just dividing output by population and ignoring it's distribution. It's even more skewed for mineral dependent nations. HDI is the best indicator of a country's development level since it captures aspects like health, education, accès to electricity, nearness to paved roads etc. And in these, Kenya's HDI is 0.553 (middle human development) while Naija is at 0.517 (low human development) according to UNDP. No contest

End of last year, all Nigerian ports combined handled a total of 1.05m containers. That's less than the kenyan Mombasa port's 1.07m TEUs and that port just opened a 2nd container terminal with a .5m capacity this June...

I don't need to talk about electricity really we all know that

Paga for is far from the largest mobile money Co in Africa. Kenya's mpesa handled $56bn Mobile phone transactions last financial year

Nigeria has been exporting crude oil and importing refined petroleum, it's good a mega refinery is being built. But Kenya, without a single drop of oil since 1970 has been in fact exporting refined petroleum products to all its neighbors after importing crude oil and refining it in the country.

Nigeria's $12bn coast rail isn't Africa's largest public works, kenya alone already has 2 projects u/c exceeding it in magnitude and cost. The $13bn SGR whose phase 1 is 90% complete and phase 2is 5% through linking Kenya, Uganda, Rwanda and Burundi. Then the $24bn LAPPSET whose roads are 60% complete, all 3 international airports are 100% complete and construction of Lamu's 1st 3 berths is ongoing will link Kenya, Ethiopia and South Sudan.

Formal retail penetration in Kenya is 2nd only to SA in the entire continent. And these are Kenyan companies that outcompeted shoprite and Co not just in Kenya but in the entire East Africa region.

Kenya's 2016 budget ($23bn) is about the same size as that of Nigeria (N6.08trn/$18bn) despite the latter having 2 times the area and 4.5 times the population, a snapshot of prioritizing by the governments.

All in all, Nigeria is a big economy but not necessarily the more developed economy. Petroleum aids it's size directly (15% of gdp) and indirectly (70% of government revenue) and a shock in this sector causes the trouble we are seeing now.

*Edit :- repetition

Msauza:
Your source is incorrect. The whole of Cape town has 3 million people. So do you mean all of them live in slums.

The source could be referring to the larger Capetown metro area whose population is around 4-5m

But then again African statistics are always skewed

Msauza:
Your source is incorrect. The whole of Cape town has 3 million people. So do you mean all of them live in slums.

The source could be referring to the larger Capetown metro area whose population is around 4-5m

I just had to do a research of slums in Africa to justify population given and the numbers are grim

Nairobi - 2.5 million (60%) slum dwellers http://www.kibera.org.uk/facts-info/

Cape Town - 3 million slum dwellers http://capetown2012.jimdo.com/slums/?mobile=1

Lagos- every 2 out of 3 people in slums (10 million people) http://www.irinnews.org/news/2006/09/05/lagos-mega-city-slums

Cairo - 40% of people in slums (4.8 million people) http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/politics/2013/11/egypt-slums-ticking-time-bomb.html

If the above numbers are any where near the reality, then Africa hardly has cities, they're more of urban villages

Adding the population of slums in Nairobi on page 1 gave me 3.6million people! Damn!

But, wait a minute, Nairobi has a population of 3.3 million people, and I know not everyone lives in slums so what's up with those figures?

Ever seen a Toshiba phone on any sales chats? That's why hp looks more appropriate. I'd name Samsung where apple is concerned and that's one stiff competition there, but then, Samsung ain't Japanese.

craziebone:
actually, there are three Nigerian languages there on google translate. They should have been four if the pidgin english was standardized. This is making a statement of cultural power. The languages are: Hausa (which is the largest of the three languages and has an imperialistic aura around it), Yoruba (which is the second largest), and lastly, Igbo (which is very famous due to its huge presence in Nollywood and the fact that most Nigerians you come across in other parts of Africa are Igbo).

Al the major world media have Hausa service. There is a swahili service too but swahili is not just for Kenya, but for the whole of the east african region.

Nigeria is the only country to have its cultural content in all of its major languages on satellite tv. There is a Hausa nolly, Yoruba nolly, and i am hearing of the talks of having an Igbo nolly too but if that doesn't come, then its ok for the usual English nollywood already has Igbo scattered all over its face.

Alot of you in other parts of Africa like to think that Nigerians, despite their huge oil wealth, cannot stay in their country because its a terrible place. Anyway, it is important for you to know that the Nigerians you find in your countries are mainly Igbo. It is the Igbo man's way to explore. If he leaves his land for another, then its not because his land is terrible, but because hehas a deep sitting tendency to epand his life. In Nigeria, we have a saying that if you go to a village anywhere in the world and you do not find an igbo man, then you should run away from there; it is not inhabitable! I bet all the guys here, Pavore9 eta al, are Igbo (and i can see them smile already).

If not for the Igbo, Nigerians won't have the reputation of been found in just about any corner of the world.

Also, the Igbo provide their own employment where ever they are. This is why they don't stuggle with you guys to get a paid employment in your country.

Lastly, Lagos is the smallest state in Nigeria. It is only 3200km square. Of that size, the lagoon and other water bodies take approximately 40percent of its area. Lagos is bigger than Nairobi only in terms of population and not land area.

Nairobi's only 696km squared and 25% of that is a park so Lagos is far much larger in area too.

And it's true, most Nigerian foreigners are igbo. I even used to think it's the largest group. In cultural terms, Nigeria is a big influence to many countries. Infact if you ask an American here to imitate an African, it'll be pidgin English and Nigerian attire they'll do. But you got to give it up to how East Africans have made such a big grandeur of swahili to even enable none swahili countries such as Uganda, Rwanda to adopt and embrace it. Though naija culture is still more pronounced, no doubt about that

craziebone:
according to this link Agriculture makes up 24percent their total GDP while services, which also include tourism, is only 14 percent.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Kenya

my point in that post you quoted still stands. I am not saying Nigeria has peaked its agric potentials. What i am saying is we do not need to peak it to still make a point. Israel, which is called the start-up country, has a more develop tech industry per capita than the US, should the US then be worried? By no mean! The tech industry in the US still trumps that of Israel by far! That's exactly what i'm talking about.

Wikipedia is always behind in updated stats. That's the 2007 figure, 9 years ago! And agriculture was 25% due to their drought back then. 14% is manufacturing, not services because from that very same site, hotel and accommodation was at 13.8%, transportation and communication at 6.9% and other services (tourism, retail etc) at 25%. That is 46% of the gdp in services that are interwoven with tourism which is more or less the same percentage now. So my statements stand.

Then the israeli - US comparison is too Grand contrasting it with the Kenyan-Nigerian one. Given that Nigeria's gdp is about 4 times larger than Kenya's, make an analysis between American and Japanese tech productivity per capita and you'll realize that there's need to worry. US is a little over 4 times Japan's economy (same ratio as naija-ken) and Toshiba's improvements are a nightmare to Hp.

MPSA:
I will learn more about nigerian languages when the time goes on, I only saw two languages on google translation ( yoruba and igbo), the rest I will learn here on nairaland. I can't comment more about this two countries, because I only know more about my country south africa, what I know about nigeria from the media is high population, poor infrastructural maintenance, oil, number one in africa, lastly the Giant thing, that is all I know from the media. On Kenya; Masai tribe, wild life, Nairobi small but beautiful and clean, compare to big lagos but unattractive because of very poor infrastructural maintenance, that is all I see from nairaland and other media. For tourism, I go for kenya; for deep african culture, I go for nigeria.

Take time to travel and this continent will stun you. For instance, all I used to know about your country SA was that every thing is old from the 70s built by the whites for the whites while the vast black population lives in Shanty towns. After visiting there, my perspective was completely changed, I even wonder from where does the media get its info

craziebone:
my dear, accept it already that when it comes to Agriculture, we trump Kenya even with our sick Naira. If we were to make the most of our Agric potential and every other country does the same, what do you think will be the resultant effect of agric produce in the intl market?

Saudi Arabia can export more crude than they are currently exporting but they are not doing so. Why is that? It is because if they do, there will be a glot in the market and that would mean cheaper crude oil which won't work in the favour of producers.

If Kenya is making more of their agric potential, then it is because its the biggest thing they could lay their hands on, that's not the case with Nigeria! So please give honour to whom honour is due.

This is one funny chest thumping friend. With more than a third of your land being arable , you still pride yourself for producing more agriculture in aggregate terms than a largely arid (93%), 4 times less populated country half Nigeria's size in area. If only Nigeria achieved Kenya's productivity level, agricultural output would be at 300bn, more than the current total gdp! Yet Kenya is just a meer developing nation, what of the netherlands' or Taiwan's productivity level? The potential we are sitting on is such that priding oneself of such meager achievements is almost a joke.

And agriculture isn't the biggest thing Kenya could lay its hands on, tourism is to them what oil is to Nigeria, a cash cow. And trust me, that sector is quite advanced for a developing nation. The transportation sector such as tour travels and Airlines (Kenya airways), accommodation sector, communication sector, retail and other tour associated sectors are quite developed.

craziebone:
if as at 2015 before the free fall of the Naira, agriculture contributes over 240bn dollar to Nigeria's GDP. Then today after the fall of the Naira by a third of its worth, it means agric now contributes 61bn dollar to Nigeria's economy. That's the entire worth of the Kenyan economy! And some people still want to portray Nigeria as a basket case.

Nigeria’s agric sector contributes over
$245bn to GDP
Minister
of
Agriculture and Rural Development, Dr.
Akinwumi Adesina, has said the size of
agricultural Gross Domestic Product
(GDP) has risen from N14 trillion in 2011
to N46.6 trillion (about $245bn) as of
2014.
Receiving an award as the “Newswatch
Man of the Year 2014 in Project
Management and Revenue Generation”
on Thursday in Abuja, Adesina said that
the figure surpassed the total
agricultural GDP for the 8-year period of
2000—2008 which was N42 trillion.
Quoting from the National Bureau of
Statistics (NBS) reports, he said: “The
agriculture GDP of Nigeria rose from N
14 trillion in 2011, to N 15.8 trillion by
2012 and 16.8 trillion by 2013.
“The total agricultural GDP in just three
years of 2011-2014 was N 46.6 trillion,
surpassing the total cumulative GDP for
the 8-year period of 2000-2008 of N 42
trillion.”
As part of achievements in the
Agricultural Transformation Agenda
(ATA) in the last three years, the minister
said over 3.5 million farm jobs have
been created across the agricultural
value chains, spurring a revival of rural
economies, especially for millions of
youths and reducing rural-to-urban
migration.
“The agriculture sector has brought
macroeconomic and fiscal stability for
the country, despite the depreciation of
the Naira and steep decline in the price
of crude oil, food prices have been
largely stable,” he said.
Adesina also said the production of
maize has recorded tremendous success
as 14 million metric tonnes of maize
were produced in the last three years of
the implementation of ATA.

http://tungamediang.com/nigerias-agric-sector-contributes-over-245bn-to-gdp/

Lemme demystify the above statement. Agriculture now contributes about 22% of Nigeria's gdp($60bn) and 30%of Kenya's gdp ($20bn). Nigeria's output is by no doubt much larger. But Nigeria has 39% of its total area as arable while for Kenya it's just 7%. So we have a $0.16bn/Sq km output for Nigeria and a $0.5bn/Sq km productivity for Kenya. This implies that for the same land size, agriculture in Kenya is close to 5 times more productive than in Nigeria while in total output, Nigeria is 3 times more productive

ThunderingHooves:
That's the spirit. Yourself and @Pavore9 are providing the best in analysis straight from the horses mouth-9ja people who have lived in Kenya and other african countries. I have been to Zambia, Botswana, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique,Tanzania,Rwanda,Uganda, S Sudan for considerable portions of time. I agree that our public health system has many bugs, but its not as desperate as what i saw in Tanzania and Mozambique for instance. We even have a national health insurance scheme open to all adults for a measly 200 shs or so per month.
That being said, it's the basics we should get right. Also, where this conversation should focus, seeing as it exists to support /rebut what this man FFK has said. By this i mean things like access to clean water, maternal and infant mortality, literacy levels, access to electricity, access to sanitation,..... etc you know the development indicators drill ?

From the thread title, what FFK is purporting as compared to the factual reality implies he could be living under a rock. Kenya is by no means far behind Nigeria where development is concerned, it's infact marginally ahead of Nigeria.

I could bump up very many references to support my statement but would like to avoid meaningless arguments like "no 1 ever came to my house to ask this" and the post would also be one long read many would rather ignore. Thus, unless if prompted to, I'll leave it at that statement.

Per capita income is a useless indicator of a nation's development, more so mineral dependent ones. Dividing total output by population won't tell about people's lives, education, housing etc. It's infact heavily skewed in mineral exporting nations.

The exchange rate is another completely absurd illustration of a nation's development level. Different nations will peg exchange rates at certain levels for their own reasons. For instance the Japanese yen seems weak but it's what makes Toyotas very affordable while the American dollar is very strong since as a global currency, it needs to maintain a certain level of strength so as to act as a reference point and peg for many other nations' currencies. Though the variance in this is an illustration of how stable an economy is, during the 2008 financial turmoil there was more devaluation in western (developed) currencies than in African (developing) currencies. The brexit led the pound devalue more than say the Ghanaian cedi, and we all know which country is more developed. Instability is more of an outside shocks influence than a development level influence.

It's the HDI that's the best indicator of a country's development level. And this because it captures qualitative variants such as access to health, education levels, access to clean water, nearness to paved roads for most people, portion of people connected to the electric grid etc. And in these, kenya (0.552, medium human development level) is ahead of Nigeria (0.517, low human development level) according to UNICEF.

diva90:
These Kenyans should pack one side Abeg! They can never compete with Nigerians on any level. We remain one of the best

True, the Kenyans don't compete with Nigerians, they seem to look beyond! Blackouts are as common in Nigeria as they are rare in Kenya, formal retail penetration is much higher in Kenya than Nigeria, and these are Kenyan companies that not only out competed S.A's shorprites in Kenya, they drove them out of Eastern Africa. Mombasa port handles as much TEUs as all Nigerian ports combined. Their Hdi is even higher than Nigeria's and they have longer lifespans and literacy rates. Kenya can't frankly be competing with Nigeria...

Claiming Kenya is far behind Nigeria just shows this guy's ignorance. Just because he doesn't know something doesn't mean it does not exist.

Not that I'm trying to make a this vs that claim but as a pointer, stable electricity, a more diversified economy, more motorways per square km, more formal retail penetration, a dominance of most sectors by local brands and a higher HDI are all indicators of a more developed country. And Kenya is slightly better off than Nigeria in all of the above

Nigeria is a big market no doubt, albeit tough economic times. But you must know that venturing in Kenya is venturing into the EAC, an intertwined market of just as many people as Nigeria but growing much faster with Ethiopia not being far away. I think that's what they saw

PurpleHouse:
www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0712/top-agricultural-producing-countries.aspx

The report talks of the importance of agriculture which only a fool would deny. Then it talks of largest producing countries in certain things, us, China and Russia, topping most lists. Of course they should, being 3 of the largest nations by area, a large portion being arable. (Canada is largely snow). But do you know what portion of their gdp is agriculture?

They have been specializing on agriculture since independence to what end? For as long as the developed economies subsidize their farmers, Uganda's comparative advantage in agriculture will continue being heavily negated, agricultural commodities' prices will continue being very low and thus earning them very little $. They are better off joining OPEC and even using the proceeds from oil to industrialize and boost agriculture

Besides, which developed country do you know off solely dependent on agriculture as its comparative advantage and main export

Kenyan cities:-

Mombasa
https://i.imgur.com/8Nivc7J.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Esc5uwu.jpg


Nairobi

https://i.imgur.com/dNICd0Q.jpg

[img]http://mutuamatheka.files./2010/09/nairobi-skyline_a_mutua-matheka.jpg?w=1024&h=476[/img]

https://i.imgur.com/xfhR415.jpg?1

Kisumu

https://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g429/1234THOMAS/work_5713568_1_flat550x550075f_kisumu-city.jpg

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7459/8756758319_26b9ed536a_h.jpg

Lamu

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5446/17563323331_6cd80f5ebd_b.jpg

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2885/12924629633_48cc234298_b.jpg