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Technology Market / Short Survey. Who Should Bear Burden Of Delivery (please Read) by DeLioncourt: 7:57am On Apr 30, 2018 |
Hello guys, After an almost sour encounter with a seller, I decided to seek opinion on this. In a situation where you buy a product from a seller in another state, you pay for delivery to your location. Which is normal. On receipt, the product doesn't work as expected. And there was a prior agreement that you will get a refund if it doesnt work. Who should bear the cost of delivering the product back to the seller? Please, bear in mind that this is a used product and the seller guaranteed that it would work. Just opinions please. The seller and I have settled amicably but I just want to know what other people think. |
Technology Market / Re: Samsung Note 4 With Bad Screen For Sale by DeLioncourt: 10:19am On Apr 29, 2018 |
ajide99: Today?? |
Travel / Re: 12 People Killed In Fatal Car Accident Along Lagos-Ibadan Expressway. Photos by DeLioncourt: 7:08am On Apr 29, 2018 |
I hope the driver died sha |
Technology Market / Re: Samsung Note 4 With Bad Screen For Sale by DeLioncourt: 7:42pm On Apr 28, 2018 |
peteredo: |
Technology Market / Re: Samsung Note 4 With Bad Screen For Sale by DeLioncourt: 7:42pm On Apr 28, 2018 |
ajide99: WhatsApp - 08183747329 |
Technology Market / Re: Samsung Note 4 With Bad Screen For Sale by DeLioncourt: 2:42pm On Apr 28, 2018 |
ajide99: Whats ur location? |
Technology Market / Re: Samsung Note 4 With Bad Screen For Sale by DeLioncourt: 4:17pm On Apr 27, 2018 |
ajide99: lol. seen. but we both know that's way to low. |
Technology Market / Re: Samsung Note 4 With Bad Screen For Sale by DeLioncourt: 3:59pm On Apr 27, 2018 |
Burgcudi: SM-N910P |
Technology Market / Samsung Note 4 With Bad Screen For Sale by DeLioncourt: 1:45pm On Apr 27, 2018 |
I have a samsung note 4 with a bad screen for sale. Every other thing is fine. Highest bidder by the end of today gets it. Thanks |
Religion / Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by DeLioncourt: 11:37am On Apr 26, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: I have said that twice haven't I? It doesn't bother me to admit that I made a wrong choice of words. However, it doesn't mean that I concede to the notion that god exists. I still maintain that there is no reasonable evidence to god's existence...such as there is none to the existence of fire breathing dragons. |
Religion / Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by DeLioncourt: 11:02am On Apr 26, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: which is why i said i was wrong making the assertion (which you misconstrued). I should have said instead that there is no reason and sufficient evidence to believe in god. Atheism is not defined as there is not god. It's simply a disbelief in the existence of one. |
Religion / Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by DeLioncourt: 10:38am On Apr 26, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: On the contrary, having an opinion on a topic doesn't connote belief - subconscious or not - in any of the elements concerning that topic. I am not a fan of the twilight series, but I would share an opinion on it if I had one. This does not mean I am subconsciously a fan the series. And you should probably check the definition of "constantly", because I have never engaged anyone on this platform on this topic prior to the last few days. The point of my question was, you don't believe in dragons and wizards...yet there is a book - 8 books in fact - that say they exist. Can you disprove their existence? It is written, is it not? |
Religion / Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by DeLioncourt: 8:28am On Apr 26, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: You misconstrue my words. In explanation, I propose a question. It's a simple yes or no question. Do you believe that dragons and wizards with wands and magic cloaks exist? . |
Religion / Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by DeLioncourt: 5:06am On Apr 26, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: It was the status quo. Simply put, there wasn't any belief to begin with. There were just people. There was no back and forth until some folks decided to invent deities to believe in. My mistake was saying "god does not exist". I call this a mistake because there currently no foolproof way to disprove god's existence. There will always be some illogical line of argument in favor of his existence...it is, after all, one man's imagination. Atheists say "there is no reason to believe that God exists". And before the name was coined, before religion was created, there wasnt and still isn't any reason to believe in the existence of god. |
Religion / Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by DeLioncourt: 12:45am On Apr 26, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: Atheists make no claim. Theists do. 1 Like |
Religion / Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by DeLioncourt: 10:00am On Apr 25, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: lol. this only fuels the notion that gods were invented by man. |
Religion / Re: Does God Exist? A Debate by DeLioncourt: 3:25pm On Apr 23, 2018 |
Kemzeee1: that you choose to believe so, doesn't make it so. |
Technology Market / Re: **PHONE SWAP CENTRE**SWAP IT NOW!!! pin:265DA560 or 08033923897 by DeLioncourt: 9:33am On Apr 23, 2018 |
felai: come gimme the battery na.. where u dey? |
Religion / Re: Does God Exist? A Debate by DeLioncourt: 9:02am On Apr 23, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: it's a personal choice to differentiate between "god" and "God". they both mean the same thing to me. 1 Like |
Religion / Re: Does God Exist? A Debate by DeLioncourt: 11:53am On Apr 22, 2018 |
MuttleyLaff: Like I said, there'll always be some illogical argument to defend the existence of god. |
Religion / Re: Does God Exist? A Debate by DeLioncourt: 9:45am On Apr 22, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: Oops... I spoke too soon. They're almost there...if not there already. https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23831730-300-making-babies-how-to-create-human-embryos-with-no-egg-or-sperm/?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=SOC&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1524221408 |
Religion / Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by DeLioncourt: 9:19am On Apr 21, 2018 |
budaatum: Both, actually. |
Religion / Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by DeLioncourt: 9:18am On Apr 21, 2018 |
budaatum: When you go to buy a new Ferrari, it is you who has to provide evidence that you actually have the money to pay for the new Ferrari. You are making the claim of being able to pay, hence you have to prove that you can by actually paying. Let's say the roles were reversed and you indeed have the money. The Ferrari salesman calls you to inform you of the new Ferrari he has in stock. The onus is on him to show you that Ferrari. You wouldn't pay for it based on his allusion that he has it. If you pay for it based on that and you get scammed, a judge would ask you why you didn't seek reasonable evidence before making such a large payment. Theists have made the claims that god exists. Atheism could not have come before theism. The claimant bears the burden of proof. 1 Like |
Religion / Re: Does God Exist? A Debate by DeLioncourt: 9:14am On Apr 21, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: Then we are done here. Until science creates man from scratch without the normal birthing process, there would always be some illogical statement or set of statements to proclaim the existence of god and/or other supernatural entities. Your reason for me not seeing or hearing from god is that I don't believe in him...but once again, quoting your Bible, Paul wasn't a believer...he was even a persecutor...yet he heard clearly. There will always be some lame excuse as to why some men can "hear" from God and others can't. It was nice debating with you. I learnt a couple of things. Peace. |
Religion / Re: Atheism. God Does Not Exist. by DeLioncourt: 4:25pm On Apr 20, 2018 |
budaatum: I'm sorry to say but this makes absolutely no sense... I dont remember comparing air to anything |
Religion / Re: Does God Exist? A Debate by DeLioncourt: 4:16pm On Apr 20, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: And I am yet to see cogent proof of god's existence. The thread says "Does God exist"...so i expect you will present cogent proof of his existence too. |
Religion / Re: Does God Exist? A Debate by DeLioncourt: 4:04pm On Apr 20, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: Now you're just grasping at straws... omnipresence simply means - (of God) present everywhere at the same time. Now he doesn't have to be everywhere literally to be everywhere? What are you saying? If you claim omnipresence for god, then he has to be everywhere... if you claim omniscience, then he has to know everything and absolutely everything. If he cannot be in hell (that we can say he created), then he isn't omnipresent..and if he isn't omnipresent, that means he isn't all powerful.
Why can't I demand proof of existence? Why does your employer ask for your birth certificate even when he can see you? why doesn't he just take your word for it? Who says you cannot request a DNA test to ascertain if your parents are actually your parents? And if there is irrefutable evidence to god's existence, why can't we see it? If you can, show it to me. There is evidence to the law governing gravity. If you throw a rock up, it will come down 99.9% of the time. In simpler terms, your abilities as a programmer remain non-existent until you prove that you can indeed write programs. Your abilities to levitate are non-existent until you actually do levitate.
So, your argument is that since this earth seems fine-tuned to accommodate human life, god must invariably exist? Using your line of argument against you, "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence". Science is yet to discover life on other planets... however, we haven't ruled out the possibilities. Over the decades, several distant planets that are light years away have been discovered that show potential to support some form of life.. the kepler-186f for example. It has been referred to as earth's cousin because it is in the habitable zone of it's star. So, it could indeed habit other forms of life unknown to us. Time and advances in science(not god) will tell. The existence of human life does not prove that god exists.
Your argument for human value is from the bible. The bible's veracity cannot be verified and therefore nullifies your argument. Winston Churchill said - History is written by the victors. The bible was written by people who wanted us to hold certain pernicious beliefs. The biological tree of life also known as the evolutionary tree of life was produced by Charles Darwin - an atheist. Not only humans can define and differentiate right from wrong. (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/wildlife/5373379/Animals-can-tell-right-from-wrong.html) Are wolves and coyotes also imprinted with the values of the maker? Different animals have been proven to exhibit ethical behavior in a sense of it. But yet, we kill them for food and sell them like they are commodities...even when they display the values you falsely regard as strictly human.
The things you see; beauty, truth, love, good and bad...can all exist without the concept of god. Like I have pointed out above, animals display a knowledge of good and bad... they also display love. Ants display purpose as do certain birds. All animals have freedom to choose... some cats hunt mice and kill them, mine don't. Some cats are mischievous and will steal from pots, some won't. (I use cats because I have cats). Female lions have been shown to make the choice of remaining with a pride after a takeover or leaving to join another pride. Yet these animals don't in the least bit exhibit a knowledge or belief in god. This simply points to the fact that all these things you see and attribute to the existence of god can indeed exist without him. god has never been the reason for technological advancements... the cellphone was not designed because of god..it was designed as a result of the need to communicate. medicine to treat illnesses were not as a result of god. the people that came up with these advancements that we blissfully enjoy and foolishly attribute to god, did so out of necessity in most cases and not an inherent purpose. Left to religion, there will be little or no technological progress. the church will obviously not have sponsored the hubble telescope or space exploration. Many scientists and illustrious people have demonstrated purpose and achieved great things without believing in the existence of god. Darwin, Einstein, Karl Marx, Bertrand Russell and Michael Ruse to name a few... god was never and is still not needed for humans and animals to have a purpose or yearn for a better life.
as to the power of prayer, i will refer you to the 2006 study on the power of intercessory prayer that was initiated and carried out by a team which included staunch believers in god. read it up and see how woefully it failed. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567). The principle of God is not an immediate universal change but an individual deliberate change you say, then i'll refer you to the conversion of Saul to Paul from the bible... his change wasn't gradual.
Christianity and Terrorism - i will simply refer you to; The gunpowder plot, the pogroms, the KKK, God's army in myanmar, the Maronite Christian militias of lebanon The National Liberation Front of Tripura in India The Walisongo school massacre that happened in Indonesia Ilaga in the phillipines The Russian Orthodox Army The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda.. The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord in the USA Defensive Action, the Montana Freemen also in the USA
First of all, I don't believe in lucifer or any such superstition. I only mention it because you believe in his existence. Second, i have a question for you.. according to you, god wants man to learn to be good right? then explain the flood. the bible clearly says that god destroyed the world and all humanity (except noah and his folk) because of their violence and evil. Are we to believe that man is less evil today than then? Didn't god in his omniscience know that noah (who was righteous and blameless) and the people he saved on the ark were only going to procreate and lead to another sinful and violent generation?? Or does he enjoy the process... and why was he remorseful about the whole flood thing and promise never to do it again after he had done it? did he not foreknow the outcome? Gen 9v14-16 (Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth.”) Does this mean god can forget?? He needs to see the rainbow to remember? A myriad of inconsistencies that smell of fiction that wasn't properly thought through.
Your scientist analogy is not a good one and i will tell you why. Your scientist expects the rabbits to go to the carrots..but he doesn't know that they will. Omniscience suggests that he knows that 2 will go to the carrots and 3 to the water. Let me give you a simple example of omniscience. Quentin Tarantino writes a mindblowing movie with crazy twists and turns. As a movie watcher, you can only guess what will happen while you watch. You can only make educated assumptions based on previous Tarantino movies you have watched or based on the behavior of the characters. However, Tarantino himself will be omniscient as far as the movie is concerned. He will know what every character will do, when they will do it and how they will do it. He will know who dies and who lives...because he wrote it. Because he is the god of that movie...the creator. If his characters can decide to change what happens in the movie, this defies his omnipotence. Immediately one character deviates from script, Tarantino is no longer omniscient...but that can't happen because he wrote the movie. Another example... games. Games like Shadow of Mordor, Mass effect and a host of others have different storylines to keep the players engaged. You can finish the game, start over and experience a whole different thing. The gamer doesn't know all the possible endings... only the game designer does. The game designer implemented all the scenarios via code, so he knows what will happen when a player decides to do one thing or another. The characters in that game have no freewill...the gamers themselves have no freewill (in the real sense of the word) as far as that game is concerned, because whatever they do will lead to an already pre-designed end. If a character is meant to die (according to the game story line), nothing the player or character can do will change that eventuality. This applies to the god hypothesis and humanity's freewill. We cannot have freewill if god is omniscient. And god cannot be omniscient if we have freewill. They don't follow. And if god doesn't have omniscience, it means he is flawed and does not live up to the god status which he has been ascribed... meaning he is all powerful or does not exist. I will be remiss if I didn't add this: For now, it will remain impossible to prove the non-existence of god 100% or to prove his existence 100%. Every argument against can be countered by adding some supernatural clause e.g. why can't we see god - because he's a spirit. why can't we find heaven - because god doesn't intend us to and it isn't a physical place. why can't we hear god speak like he did in the old and new testament - because he has given us the spirit to guide us in the form of a still voice and what not. I hope you get my point. Also, you cannot fully disprove the existence of vishnu and krishna...zeus and aphrodite...venus and apollo.. But as Ralph Waldo Emerson said - “The religion of one age is the literary entertainment of the next.” Zeus and the rest are now seen as myths... the indian gods will soon go the same way... as sure as death is, the christian god will go the same way in future ages. |
Religion / Re: Does God Exist? A Debate by DeLioncourt: 1:37pm On Apr 20, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: Death indeed is a part of life. However, I wouldn't want harm to come to the one I love. If I had a cow as a pet, I wouldn't kill it to eat just because I love beef. Your counter here is baseless. Man will die eventually of old age... why does god's self cleansing system have to cut lives short in order to function. That points to either a design flaw or just natural occurring phenomenon that was not designed by a god.
My statement about man being mediocre did not in any way imply that man cannot develop. Development is a process of evolution. Rats did evolve over time with documented evidence.. (http://www.ratbehavior.org/history.htm) (https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn4840-rat-genome-reveals-supercharged-evolution/). Man did not always have the level of intelligence he exhibits now. The early men that drew hieroglyphics were limited by their abilities...evolution brought about advances in art...picasso, da vinci, rafael, michaelangelo.. those prominent artists were also limited in their abilities...further evolution has brought about hyper-realistic art.. the kind of art da vinci would drool over. (https://www.demilked.com/hyperreal-pencil-drawings-nigerian-arinze-stanley/) This is simply proof of evolution and not design. .
When you touch your hair, it is you skin that is responding to that touch (depending on the location of the hair you touch). If you have a full head of hair, you won't feel sh*t when you touch your hair. Your hair is not a sensory organ. The third eyelid in humans (incomplete as it is) is a remnant from the evolutionary process. Cats and dogs possess a fully functional third eyelid that performs those functions you listed. The plica semilunaris of conjunctiva is a vestigial remnant of a nictitating membrane in humans. (wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nictitating_membrane)
to chastise is to reprimand or punish..so i don't know what you're trying to say here.
If i had the power to do anything, there would be infinitely simpler ways to punish man's wickedness. Man was created by god according to you. Whence comes his inherent wickedness? If man was indeed created in the image and likeness of god, whence comes all the evil? Or does god have an evil side also? the point of bringing this up is that god is an extremely contradictory element that cannot exist and operate within the given principles that man has claimed. god would have created a species of extremely intelligent and pure creatures if he did exist.
I know very well what the bleeding does and why women bleed. I do not see it as a terrible thing. Maybe you should read my post again. For your perusal (Leveticus 15:19&20 - Whenever a woman has her menstrual period, she will be ceremonially unclean for seven days. Anyone who touches her during that time will be unclean until evening. Anything on which the woman lies or sits during the time of her period will be unclean.) The point of mentioning this is that if god exists, he is not just... and if you claim he is just, then he doesn't exist. you claim he created all beings... he created man and woman.. why then pronounce the woman unclean when her body performs a function that you deliberately put there? The bible and religion as a whole was created by men who intended and succeeded in subjugating women for millenniums. |
Religion / Re: Does God Exist? A Debate by DeLioncourt: 8:23pm On Apr 19, 2018 |
Can god in all his omnipotence create a rock too heavy for him to lift? Can Omniscient god know how to create something more powerful that he? Since god is omnipresent...does the mean he is also in hell? Reasons why God doesn't exist. 1. There is no evidence - There is simply no undeniable evidence to god's existence. When a website asks you to answer a captcha, it does so because it doubts your authenticity as a human. As far as the website is concerned, your evidence to being human is being able to solve that captcha. One you solve it, the website grants you access as you have fulfilled the conditions to it's believing that you are infact a human. There is no such evidence that god exists. If god exists, it would be simpler for him to provide irrefutable evidence to his existence (at least, like he did in the old testament) There will still be doubters, so why not do it for the sake of those that will believe? 2. It is illogical How does it make more sense to believe in God than to believe in a microscopic celestial teapot that watches over the earth and answers prayers? Or the flying spaghetti monster... There is a church for the spaghetti monster and a holy book...yet you don't believe in it's existence...because it is illogical... Yet a spirit that created everything and intervenes in daily human activity is logical? Laughable. 3. The state of human affairs Religion has always painted their gods as benevolent, all powerful and loving...also chastising when necessary. The world has been in turmoil since the beginning of recorded history... From the dark ages till present.. there have been wars, suffering, famine... Entire civilizations have been wiped out by diseases or hunger or both. Religion claims that prayers will touch the heart of God and he will ease the suffering of man. Years and years of accumulated prayers and things have only gotten worse... Two world wars..on the verge of a third... Numerous civil wars.. Why hasn't the loving god or gods touched the heart of their creations to end the wars and ease the suffering. There will be no such miracles because the gods being prayed to are man-made...they aren't real. 4. The purported existence of god has done more harm than good A useless argument is usually that mankind has not torn itself to shreds because of god. That religion makes people more moral. But is that right? Countless lives have been lost in the name of God. The conquistadors, the Spanish inquisitions, the witch burnings, the Islamic terrorists, the Christian terrorists... The serial killers that legit heard god telling them to kill... If god existed, he should be sick of the evil being carried out in his name. A perfect spirit, all good and all knowing, all powerful and ubiquitous, will not stand idly by while lives are lost in his name. 5. The pointlessness of creation If god exists and were truly Omniscient and omnipotent, he would have no needs. Why create man to worship him? Why would he need to create a universe to make him feel good about himself? To prove points and look awesome.. smh If he was omniscient, he wouldn't have created Lucifer knowing that Lucifer would betray him and become the devil and then proceed to tempt and lead his human creations astray. If god exists, he isn't all knowing and all powerful. 6. Freewill. The simple fact that we have freewill is proof that God doesn't exist. If he does exist then we don't have freewill. If we have freewill, he can't exist. This is simply because, his existence and Omniscience will violate the principle of freewill. If the result of a football match it known before it begins, it wasn't a fair match to begin with. If the my actions in 20 years are already known, then there is no freewill. 1 Like |
Religion / Re: Does God Exist? A Debate by DeLioncourt: 6:36pm On Apr 19, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: So, god's self-cleansing system has to involve the suffering and in most cases, death of the creations he claims to love? How malevolent. Couldn't he have designed the system in such a way that man doesn't get harmed? Or is he not smart enough to figure a way? Man is at the top of the food chain because we have been able to evolve and develop tools to put ourselves there. Do you think man was always at the top of the food chain? Without our evolution, we would be akin to grasscutters and puny sewer rats. The hair is not a sense organ. When your hair gets burnt you don't feel it until the heat or flames get to your skin. The hair does no regulate body temperature. Homeostasis does. The hair does not facilitate evaporation of pespiration in any way. The third eyelid does nothing to protect the cornea. Wisdom teeth is a dietary issue? Lol. A Google search would save you further embarrassment. Since the beginning of time, man has been responsible for the destruction of man. Except where natural disasters are involved. However, a benevolet god would not punish children for the sins of generations before them... Oh wait... Your God would... He even says it in the Bible. He would punish children and generations after them for the sins of their parents. Sounds more like a devil to me. A loving god that went as far as sending his own son to the slaughter would should be nice enough to prevent children from suffering for what they had no hand in... If only he existed. Deformities can serve as a lesson to who? The parents who will eventually die off and leave the child to face the consequences of their actions alone? Why not punish the wrongdoers like he did Uzzah when he disobeyed and touched the ark? A god that is claimed to never change... Can no longer perform the miracles that the old testament claimed he could? Making the sun stand still and pouring down fire from the heavens to smite his enemies (who btw are men that he created). Lol. So petty. It's obvious that this god you believe in was created by angry, hateful, spiteful, misogynistic, control freaks. The same God that created women and inflicted upon them 3 to 5 days of bleeding every month and proceeded to brand them as unclean when they bleed as he designed them to... god is a sham. 1 Like |
Religion / Re: Does God Exist? A Debate by DeLioncourt: 6:20pm On Apr 19, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: Your ball of clay example is simple multplication. We all know that a pair of shoes refers to 2 individual shoes. Adding them to another pair and then rendering the answer in individual terms is just you trying to be smart. 1 pair of shoes + 1 pair of shoes = 2 pairs of shoes. Observation is a part of empirical proof...observation is a scientific methodology. When you put a culture of skin eating bacteria on a cadaver, you OBSERVE their behavior. That is scientific methodology. Observation explains behavior and phenomenon. Like I stated, science has never boasted perfection. That a scientific law or experiment had exceptions doesn't make it false. Some people remain happy even in penury does not change the fact that a majority of people would be happy. That some people choose to avoid wealth doesn't change the fact that a majority of people will choose riches even at the expense of another person. Most of the things you requested scientific proof for can be subjected to observation and social experiments to produce definitive results. The existence of god however, cannot be proven except thru blind Faith, pointless infinite regresses, and several vacous arguments that have come up across centuries. |
Religion / Re: Does God Exist? A Debate by DeLioncourt: 4:42pm On Apr 19, 2018 |
Butterflyleo: Surely, an all powerful god can re-arrange rocks, nourish the earth, re-establish the ecosystem, and bring forth hidden precious stones without directly threatening human life. Of course you'd say he was being metaphorical. Whence did he get the design for the human body? You still haven't defended the mediocrity of the human body when compared to other animals in the ecosystem. As for the appendix and the tailbone..lol. i can see you just googled them. fair enough. what purpose does the Plica semilunaris (third eyelid) serve? or the darwin's tubercule.. or even the hair on our skins... cos it obviously doesn't protect us from cold or heat.. or the wisdom teeth that appears in some people and not in others.. And what say you about the malformed children born after the bombing of hiroshima? why didn't god prevent them from suffering something they had no part of? Surely, god could have saved them the suffering and prevent them from being born at all...or at least being born without deformity.. |
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