Butterflyleo:


You are beginning to drift.

Your OP says religious gods do not exist.
And I just showed you that they exist. If they are dead or not is inconsequential. They existed before and still exist in the minds of their followers as gods.

Religion is defined thus



And the list I gave you are worshipped and personal gods.

So they exist.

don't play mind games. you know very well what i mean.

and if u claim you don't, let me clarify.. i am referring to the god/gods worshiped as creator and benevolent father by all the different religions.

I also mentioned inconsistencies in nature and in man..which i addressed in that post

Butterflyleo:
Also OP so we do not forget why this debate was set up. It was because you said the below on another thread.




And I responded thus


You now said



And I responded


So while we are here and debating I still would like to see the evidence you have for the non existence of gods or God.

Empirical - based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.

Let me face some of your points.
1. Mathematical truths. 1+1 = 2. This is self explanatory. One shoe set beside another shoe is two shoes.

2. Metaphysics - the branch of philosophy that deals with the first principles of things, including abstract concepts such as being, identity, time, and space. - these things can be observed based on the definition of empirical. We observe time pass everyday..

3. Ethical truths - WHAT IS AN ETHICAL TRUTH?? what i may consider unethical may be fine by you. So answer that first.

4. Aesthetic truths - this, i assume, has to do with appreciation of beauty. this falls under the category of observation. We can observe and experience beauty around us. However, it is relative. What you find beautiful may not be beautiful to me.

5. How is science based on assumptions that can't be proven? Is the law of gravity an assumption? or the law of thermodynamics?

6. The existence of the universe - the big bang theory. If you have heard of CERN, you'll prolly have heard of the Large Hadron Collider that was used to discover the higgs boson. It is proof that matter can indeed be created from the collision of atoms.

8. Existence of scientific laws - refer to 5.
the laws were named by the discoverers at the time and they can be put to test now, tomorrow or next millennium. Science has never claimed perfection.. there was a time when some astrologers believed that man would never be able to study the stars closely... look where we are today. there are over 170 discovered solar planets orbiting over 140 stars... and these exclude the ones too small to be picked up by our most advanced telescopes.

9. the existence of the conscious mind.. i'll assume you mean self awareness. Answer me this.. are you unable to grasp your feelings and thoughts? If you aren't unable to, that simply means you are self aware.. you are conscious.

10. Explain this further.

11. Love, happiness, sadness are all emotions. Abstract concepts. They fall under the powers of observation. We can tell when other people are happy or sad because they exhibit behaviors akin to what we also exhibit when we experience those emotions. When you see a man crying, from his grimace, you can tell if they are tears of joy or tears of sorrow. These are observable concepts.

12. I'm going to assume you mean choice. Choices are influenced by a host of uncountable factors. But some of these factors can be experimented on.
I put it to you that a large majority of people living in rented apartments will either move to bigger houses or buy/build their own houses in the event that they win a lottery of a billion dollars.
I also put it to you that based on a social experiment i personally carried out, that given the option, 90% of people will press a button that will press a button that will award them with instant riches with the precondition that a random person they don't know and may never will die.

Paradigm777:
The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

The universe had a start - what caused it?
Thunder fire u there for even coming up with the topic "God does not exist "

lol. i'm waiting for the thunder from your impotent god.
ask him to strike me down if he can.

Butterflyleo:


To clear the air on your first foundation regarding Omniscience and omnipotence. Both are actually compatible and based on your definition you said this means having unlimited power. This means god should be able to do anything and everything

Everything also includes the ability to do nothing about it if this God chooses especially since he already knows the end from the beginning. Or better yet the creation of this God could just be acting out an already given script unknown to them and are simply being guided by thought, idea (from the outside) which then translates to action be it good or bad.

If God simply chose to change the course of his creation it could have been as a lesson. E.g he deliberately used the first blueprint to prove a point about our uselessness and weakness without his being in the full picture and then brought in the second blueprint as a comparison so we can now see and better understand why the first blueprint was deliberately made inadequate. So we then get to choose on our own volition.

Also your OP says all religious gods do not exist and that can be easily refuted thus.

1)Mother Theresa though dead is currently being Worshipped as a Hindu goddess by some inhabitants of Kolkata.

2) Guan Yu also dead as far back as 618 CE has been deified as early as the Sui Dynasty and is still popularly worshipped today among the Chinese people as an indigenous Chinese deity, He is seen as a bodhisattva in Buddhism and a guardian deity in Taoism.

3) George Washington himself is worshipped as a kami in Hawaiian Shinto shrines. In the United States Capitol dome, he is also depicted ascending into Heaven and becoming a god, in the famous painting called The Apotheosis of Washington.

4) L.L Zamenhof is Considered a god by members of the Oomoto religion.

And there are many more. Note you used the qualifier religious god and not God

first of all, these people you have mentioned are dead. that they are worshiped doesn't make them gods. they existed at some point but they don't exist now. And i mean exist in a physical sense because these people were human.

One of the arguments for the existence of god is intelligent design.
The question is, are we really an intelligent design?
Have you ever played a game where you play god? Games like sims... when playing such games, you have the opportunity to design your sims to your taste.
A huge majority of first time players design their sims to perfection. Some go as far as using game cheats to give their sims wealth, happiness, immunity from illness, to name a few. That sounds more like intelligent design to me.

Creationism says god created the world and everything in it.
Let's look at the earth first.
Natural disasters have plagued the world since time immemorial. I know your pitiful defense will be that god designed it that way. Was his design to take human life that he created? Earthquakes, flash floods, hurricanes...have consumed countless lives. Disasters that serve no purpose. To what end? Since the bible says that nothing happens without god's permission, does that mean that a loving god that sent his son to die for his creations cannot will those disasters away? or is he a sadist that enjoys watching his creation die? or does he have no control over the events on earth?

Let's look at man. god apparently said "lets make man in our own image and likeness". (the meaning of this has been open to debate) but I am inclined to believe that he was being literal since the god of the old testament was not known for metaphors.
Man, without his tools and weapons, is one of the weakest creations. The american field ant can withstand pressure up too 5000 times its body weight...lol. the largest known deadweight lift by a man is 500kg.
The eyes of man are not even the best in the business... cats and ospreys have it wayyyy better. Our nose and ability to smell? Even rats do better. How about our hearing? Cats, rats, dogs have it better.
We are one of the slowest creatures. the fastest man runs at about 27kmh... rhinos go at 50.. dogs at 64.. horses at 40... lol. cats are even faster at 48kmh.
We are susceptible to sickness, heat, cold, injuries... our skin is easily broken... we have totally useless parts. the appendix, the tailbone..

Again, your argument will be that we are yet to understand the purposes of those useless parts.

This isn't intelligent design. It is evolution.

HappyPagan:

Confirming the words the Prophets said to me.

'Upon thy return to the wastelands of the Land on the Naira, your first test will be a lion, a deformed one, weak on the inside, hungry for positive energy...
Lust and desire will attract him towards you. He will come smiling like a friend... Beware!!! Attack before he attacks, trigger his trigger, he will do as you do. '

LMAO
Your prophet is wise

Butterflyleo:


I did not ask for other contributors. I said between you and i. Kindly edit your OP

Also you originated the topic so you need to be the one to lay the foundation for sake of direction.

There can only be a FOR and an AGAINST and you are clearly against

Whether we like it or not, people will involve themselves. That's why I thought it better to at least lay guidelines for involvement. We can't prevent others from commenting.

I have already laid the foundation: I am of the opinion that the religious god does not exist in any form.
I just want you to state your stance.

This is a thread concerning the existence or non-existence of god.

a debate between myself and Butterflyleo

Other contributors are not welcome. You can observe.

Thanks.

Butterflyleo, I would like you to state your stance on the topic first.

I am of the opinion that the religious god does not exist in any form.

kovah:
theology is written script based on belief...In a language...Dat isn't English... God is English..B more specific in the god u r saying doesn't exist.. The Christian god..The Muslim god.. The Jewish god... The Chinese god..Or Japanese God..And like the air u can't see but need to breath... That doesn't need an explanation from u y it exist..I wonder y dis strong disillusion.... u will eventually know the truth...Like a phone u and I will go out of date...Will u b well liked and appreciated like a Nokia phone or forgotten like the others when a new version of ideology springs up

I said this earlier...i am referring to all religious gods. this includes the christian, muslim, buddhist, mormon, chinese, indian, greek and so on...

Butterflyleo:


Open a separate thread let's discuss it openly just you and me.

I'll call it the "Does god exist? A debate".

Cool?

Butterflyleo:


I would like to see the evidence you have for the non existence of God. You say it may be tedious but I still insist on seeing it.



I do not see any Inconsistencies between man and nature. All I see is cooperation. I still want to see your evidence.



I will state more than one.

1. Logical and mathematical truths cannot be proven by science. Logic presupposes science.

2. Metaphysical truths (like the past was not created 5 minutes ago with an appearance of age)

3. Ethical truths

4. Aesthetic truths

5. Science itself (since science is based on assumptions that can’t be proven)


6. the existence of the universe (why is there universe at all?) This cannot be proven scientifically

7. the beginning of the universe (assuming it had one) also cannot be proven

8. the existence of scientific laws


9. the existence of conscious minds

10. the fine-tuning of the physical constants

11. most of the things that are of greatest importance to us such as love, meaning, purpose and the need for significance.

12. most of the things that happen in our lives such as why a person lives in a certain place, works in a particular job or marries a particular person.

You might argue that one day science will explain everything, but this response is just a matter of blind faith and is confused. You can use a hammer as a great tool for hitting a nail into wood, but it isn’t the right kind of tool for fixing my mobile phone.

Similarly, science is a great way to make sense of many features of the physical universe, but it isn’t the right kind of ‘tool’ for explaining the things listed above



For years we have seen the extent humans can go in their thirst for recognition, conquest, etc. Wars have come and gone and nobody learned from the past and wars are here again. Nobody learned from past deaths and killings and murders as all these are still very much around today and getting worse with the growth of sophisticated methods.

It is easier to do evil than to do good due to our flawed nature. For example I have seen you insult someone right on this thread even without him provoking you. This shows how evil is strong in man.

If a foundation to a building is wrong or broken, there is no structure that can stand on it. It would only be a matter of time and the foundation which is faulty would be exposed again.

Countries with moral laws still would go to war with other countries. Still would jail, kill, their citizens or anyone who breaks those laws. Men who break laws themselves now sit as judge over others who also break laws and condemn them. Is that being humane?

This discussion will be a long one that i'd rather not continue on this thread.
If you wish to continue it, I can contact you via email or a method of your choosing.

As for the fellow i insulted, he had it coming and/or most likely insulted me first.

kovah:
then use the theological name for him... And I say prove it ... That the theological god doesn't exist ...not with sentiments but proven facts...

Like I said, the onus isn't on me to prove that god doesn't exist.

Give me proof that he exists and I will debunk your proofs.
Simple.

And the theological name for him is god! Different religions have different words to define what they believe it but it is ultimately called god.

kovah:
u call me confused...And say dis... The god doesn't exist u put up... Shows u r not versed in any form of knowledge...God is a general term used by philosophers astronomers scientists even...In every language on d earth...There is a god reference...Every religious belief there is a god reference...Even science n nature there is a god reference....Each person calls him by their own name....Wat ever culture u r from I am sure there is a name for god... Chinese Greek Arabs African all hv there names for the god concept.... Spaghetti god....Iron god... Stone god...There is an intelligent source greater Dan urself....Just as u cannot explain the laws of thermodynamics to a baby...Think how a being light years ahead of u...Explaining it's exsistant to u... When u cannot understand d simplest concept... Like a baby with time u will become a man and d laws of thermodynamics will b d easiest thing to understand....Till then either change d topic or learn and b wise

if you were intelligent, you'd know i'm referring to the theological version of god. and not the philosophical or scientific.
please, don't stress me.
I know the word god means different things to different people. I am talking about the god of religion. If you aren't arguing along that line, don't mention me.

Butterflyleo:


That makes you a believer. You only lack belief in God or gods and lacking belief does not mean Gods or gods do not exist it simply means that this is your chosen opinion or position.

Besides if you believe in what can be proven empirically then you would be false on so many things because there are lots of things you currently believe in which cannot be proven empirically.

Also if you say you believe in humanity I would have to ask you, in what regard? As higher beings of intellect or as higher animals? Humans are inherently wicked, proud, hateful, etc so what aspect of humanity do you believe in and since the foundation for humanity in itself is flawed, what hope has humanity got within itself to change?

I'll address your 3 paragraphs.
I don't believe in the existence of gods and I strongly believe that they don't exist. There is more evidence to the non-existence of god than to his existence. (going into all that will be tedious)
The inconsistencies in the man and nature is enough proof of god's non-existence.

Please, state one thing I believe in that can't be proven empirically since you know me so well all of a sudden.

I believe in the human race. Yes, man can be evil and cruel but that's all part of the package. Man can also be kind and caring and sympathetic. also part of the package. I believe the ability of people to be moral and humane without the intervention of a supposed deity.

Butterflyleo:


Everybody is a believer in something. An atheist who is a non believer in God or gods believes in something else.

There is no vacuum in nature. We simply replace what we onced believed with another or a different belief. Nobody is a blank slate

He meant it as an unbeliever in his faith.
I don't believe in gods or supernatural existences.
I believe in what can be proven empirically.
I believe in humanity.

kovah:
let me come down to ur level...I have been trying to dumb down to dis level of discussion....So read dis analogy well... Digest and understand... Before u type....Now switch ur phone off...Now wait for it to power up without using the power button...It won't come on without ur input... There are various ways by which it wld come on...U input a time power on or off command...U input a power source command to power on...Or u power it up urself...Life just doesn't happen...In all manner of science n nature...There is a power source... Whether u choose to believe it or not...If this too is confusing...Smh...Give someone more intelligent than yourself to explain

bruhh..what are u saying? nobody ever said there is no power source. What I am saying is that, said power source is not god!!
Is this so difficult to understand?

kovah:
ignorance....Hmmm...okay....My happypagan.... Millions of spermatozoa swimming to fertilize an egg....U were d fastest... Hence u were born...U have no memory of u swimming dat fast...It happened natural.... God is in nature... Nature is our science...I believe in something more Dan myself... Something greater than me... Apparently u do too... Happypagan....Hence d attention seeking name...

Lmao... Of all the respondents, you are the most confused.
So, swimming sperm is evidence that god exists?
That means, sperm is also evidence that the flying spaghetti monster exists. After all, some people believe the spaghetti fella is god.
You believe in something greater than yourself...what is that thing? What does that thing do? Why can't it reveal itself?

budaatum:

Oh, and enough with the insults, you bloody non-believing atheist calling me Christian!

lmao... an atheist is already a non-believer...
you believe in fairy tales... that's why you get so angry when you're called out. You know in your heart that you may be wrong. lmao

budaatum:

Why would you assume I don't understand what you're saying? Can a person not just have a different opinion to your own?

Listen you, it's my child. Are you not aware of how much stupid is out there? If I don't infect my child with my ideology, would society not infect it with their's for me? One day my child might come home and start telling me I am washed in the blood of something because I did not input a better doctrine into it! Then when I take it to the bottom of the river and bash its bastard head in (no child of mine is doing blood of anything, if I had anything to do with its conception!), I bet you would be the first to call me a child murderer!

Don't indoctrinate your child if you don't want to. Please don't make me have to bash mine's head in just because I neglected to mold it how I want mine to be! And I'm not talking force now! (Or do I have to tell you to "Read my statement again"?) I am guiding and supporting my child by inputting the doctrine I would like it to adhere to, is all. Is that really not what everyone does with their child, mold them into the image they want it to be, or at least, try to?

you obviously still didn't understand what I typed the first two times.
It will be pointless explaining again

budaatum:

No, not "proper presentation", I presented it well, its just that what I'm presenting requires a level of belief to work and a Christian person might not scrutinise it as much as you sound like you might.

If your feasibility study is sound and you've done all your homework, your proposition should be able to withstand any scrutiny and not depend on religion or tribe or any other factors (except business related) to be approved.
Once you start hoping for religion to be a grounds on which your idea is accepted, that idea is most likely sub-standard and likely to fail.

budaatum:

Lol!

Oh lord god, when I take my next business plan to investors, do not let this bloody atheist be the one advising him or her. Please make sure the investor and the adviser are believers so that the spirits in my business plan work! Ami.

smh.. you want to tell an investor that because you're a christian and he's a christian he should invest without a proper presentation of your business assessment? You're not a serious person.
You're akin to a fraudster.

budaatum:

Ehn? My child, conceived with a dik, out of my very own toto would not be an image of me? God forbid that my child be a bastard not knowing its parent! Or are you just trying to trick me?

If I don't indoctrinate my child into an image of me, I bet you are waiting in the wings somewhere to make my child an image of yourself, you my child's image thief!

I swear to god, I will tattoo my doctrine to my child's forehead. That should make it impossible for you to fill it with yours!

that's where you get it all wrong. When u force a child to be an image of you, that child never really grows. that child wouldn't have dreams of his/her own. Religion aside, your child should have the freedom to a life of his/her own. You are there as a GUIDE and SUPPORT SYSTEM!!
Your child is not a canvas for you to draw out the plans you had for yourself... your child is not an avenue to live out your unfulfilled dreams!!!
Let your child make his/her own choices.
And I didn't say a child shouldn't know his/her parents. Read my statement again.

Are these your pastors?? Or are they business men?

JOKERS

These don't look like freshly dead people to me tho

Who else is having issues playing PUBG? I updated to v0.4 and I haven't been able to get past the log in screen. Sometimes, it doesn't even get to the login screen before it crashes.

Thegeneralqueen:
Men! men!! men!!!
Ritualist,yahoo yahoo,theives.....just name it every bad thing in this world was being originated from a man.... smh imagine how peaceful the world would have been if there are No men.....

if there were no men, you wouldn't exist. Dumbo.

nuggarito:


Very true, Nigerians are damn difficult but what do you call a Nigerian who is bringing up sexual related talk between his mother and his gf,( a confused sex starved animal looking for any means to quench his thirst for sex ) bro you need checkup asap. Do good to yourself by ending incest pornography. Not good for your life.

It was a question i saw on twitter you idiot. Same question that people answered reasonably to. But you have to show that you were brought up by unhappy, angry people. fokoff

nuggarito:
. You don't need to see him all you need is his brain aboki

it's a simple dilemma. Proffer an answer or shift.

Nigerians are too difficult.

Drabeey:
As dumb as the op might sound, probably due to his lack of good presentation, that's a very brilliant question!

well, maybe because we put too much odd impression towards sex makes it hard to see the sense embedded in this post. okay, well bro as for your question, i'll pass!


Drabeey was HERE

as a typical nigerian, you have to insult somebody. lol. i hope you feel good about yourself.

It's a simple dilemma... how would you solve it? answer or pass.

DeadRat:



Give Me One Good Reason Why it Should Be Well With You?

I'm good looking

nuggarito:
Bingo probably has a better brain than you, you should come borrow sense from my dog so that you don't post rubbish.

post a picture of your dog lemme see

MissRaine69:
I am more than happy to refer you for a psychiatric evaluation and hopefully get you treatment as soon as possible.

I don't need an evaluation... I already know where I stand...

But really, what will you do?