FxMasterz:

Come meet me live on the field and you'll see something. Would I be asking for doctor's report before praying for needy people? Jesus heals. I have never heard of any occasion where placebo effect healed anybody of elephantiasis.

Of course, till I left Ilorin in about years later, the boy had a normal leg and was able to mix well with fellow kids. Meanwhile before I prayed for him, the mother was always backing him and wrapping his leg under clothes so it would not be seen. I prayed for him when he was about 3 or 4 years old. I didn't ask his age.

Didn't really say placebo cures diseases, I only gave an example with the alleviation of symptoms such as headaches to demonstrate some of the effects of believing something and feeling of wellness. However I did primarily say general optimism does have positive effects on health outcomes. I made these points to demonstrate that I think a person can genuinely report feeling better after something like prayer, but I attribute these to the mind.

Again tho these are your claims, understand that I have no personal reason to believe you and you're evidently not an unbiased observer giving me a retelling.

It's at least good the child is doing alright.
I wouldn't blame a mother for not having documentation as she wouldn't be involved in a debate of proving the power of prayer here because that would be strange, and rather she'd just be more worried about her kid and doing what she believes is right for the child. Neither would I really blame you if it was a spur of the moment thing and you genuinely believe you're helping people by it.

However discussing anecdotes of the supernatural's existence and effects such as healing untreated illness can only go so far, what is needed is hard verifiable data, not stories. Let's not forget about the existence of actual con men that stage things and lie for attention or profit.

Like wouldn't it be awesome if someone was medically diagnosed with brain cancer, and we had that verifiable documentation, and the person went to church and had prayer, only to go back to a hospital and get checked again and we find the cancer gone with no medical treatment and we also have verifiable documentation of that also for example?
It wouldn't be complete proof for specific claims as there are some unaccounted variables, but it would be a genuine start to changing a skeptical mind. At least it would make me reexamine my current beliefs.

FxMasterz:


So, when a person comes to me for prayer, his mind is immediately altered as I pray for him or her?

There was a woman whose son was operated on his right leg for elephantiasis. The disease resurfaced and at the time in 2014, she was looking for another 100k for a second operation. She brought the child to me and I laid hands on the leg, praying in the name of Jesus. That was on a Monday morning. The woman came back on Wednesday to show me the reduced size of the leg. The child's leg continued reducing in size until it became as normal as the other.

Tell me whose mind was altered in the above scenario. The woman, the child or both of them? There are many things you don't understand. And you'll never understand until you come to Jesus.

All I have are your claims to go off of which don't mean much to me.
Do you have medical documentation of before and after you prayed for the kid?

Placebo effect, and the impact of Mood & Optimism on health recovery are well documented.
People with headaches have been given sugar pills and told they were painkillers, and have had those symptoms go away.
And people who've had surgery, and had a positive outlook and positive support wether it was blind optimism, or a belief that their god will not let them down, have been shown to have quicker recovery over someone that's negative.
The mind has a substantial impact on the body and health, though not enough to heal an untreated disease, the immune system can't normally fight off like cancer or a parasite.
So I don't doubt a person could genuinely report feeling better after prayer, or some type of religious services.

I can't verify your story, but if true I hope the woman still got her child checked and he's doing better.

FxMasterz:


I already know that all those exists without being staged. It's those who think everything is staged who need this question.

I don't think they're usually staged, but you attribute these to the existence of the supernatural, and also as proof of your specific religious beliefs.

I attribute it to the human mind and/or altered states of consciousness, not proof of the supernatural as the only effects observed are on a person's psyc. nothing else.
There's a difference.

Chrisrare:
curing a demon possessed person can be staged, the 'demon possessed person' can do an arrangee with the pastor. But making an amputated limb grow back can't be staged. Why does Jesus direct you to perform only miracles that can be staged? That shows he's imaginary.

The thing is people that claim to have demon possession need not be staged actually. It's people who are experiencing one problem or another in their life and attribute it demons, their genuine belief in that can manifest in a type of hysteria. There's some deeper psychological to the topic, so here's a video on it if you're interested.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqI2vv13fPw?si=rQfI4ymH0YSai0EO

FxMasterz:


How did you come to know that gravity is real? By reading many books and having a demonstration.

How do I know Jesus is real? By reading many books which many would never read, and by having numerous demonstrations which many would never do.

This thread is an opportunity for you to read something about Jesus because you've never done. You've been reading the wrong books for sure. Did you watch the video? The video is an opportunity for you to witness a demonstration which you've never witnessed.

Are you consistent with that logic?

So will you accept Islam and Allah if I show you a video/image of a Sufi mystic experiencing the divine?

Or Buddhism if I show you a Buddhist who's managed to spiritually ascend and separated mind from body through their practice of meditation.

Is that your criteria for a claim or belief being true?

PUNANI01:
Good you arrested them.

What is their crime?

StillDtruth:


And do you.not see that they are saved based on the fact that they meet the criteria and standard of qualificatiion to be saved applicable to all people whether they believed God or not?

So your rational is that "Your God has made his will known and that will is the Bible, and part of that will is belief in him and following the commandments in the Bible. Meaning the requirements for salvation is free and equally available to everyone."
Therefore belief, being your God's biggest requirement for salvation, is perfectly reasonable.

However.
We've already established, that belief is not a matter of simple choice. Which makes that ask still unreasonable.

People don't choose to not believe in your bible and it's claims because they're convinced it's true, but secretly hate it like you tend to alluded to.
They either belong to another religion with their own holy book, they believe is from God that makes a different set of claims and you're in the wrong to them. Or see it as another mythic religious book that makes claim that can't be substantiated.

This is a different topic tho, which will have to venture into what makes your own holy book and interpretation, the correct and true one the creator intended.
And what evidence you have that can show this beyond a reasonable doubt.

Does it not take deliberation to be convinced?See how you twist yourself out of balance.

Depends on the individual.
Do you remember in 2014 during the ebola outbreak, when millions of Nigerians were convinced to bathe with salt in one night, and in 2020 when a number of people believed 5G signal was the cause of covid?

I agree it usually takes some form of deliberation to be convinced about something, and for a person to believe it true or false.

But I'll have to ask what type of deliberation?
From the examples I gave, these were people who were mislead, and believed something because they heard it from someone they may have trusted and also lacked the knowledge or tools to question it further.
This was the extent of their deliberation and their reason for believing it.
I saw this with my eyes, when my parents and elders believed false things in the case of the examples given.

Most people's extent of deliberation of their religion is their parents believe in it and raised them in it, and parents usually know better. "So I'll believe in my parents God and faith." Which is why most people born in a specific religion most often stay in it, very few apostatize to a different faith, or become Atheists.

I alluded to this point earlier, when I said "... A person believes in God for example because they're convinced of his existence, due to one reason or the other, same goes for someone who doesn't believe in God. The subject of wether their reason is logical or valid is a different matter."

omoredia:
2mrw some liars with PhD will say it was the white man that came to Africa to enslave blacks. If that was the case why is the black man not happy to remain in his black Africa?

Are you slower than a snail in your upstairs?

Do you think multiple things can't be true at once.
Slavery and colonisation are factual.
It is also human nature to seek greener pasture, and better opportunities somewhere else.

StillDtruth:


What is the qualification for escaping puniishment and entering a new world which people call enterinh heaven?

Answer: Sin-none-ness/good fullness/righteosness.

Now, is there any man who has never done anything wrong or bad or evil? No. All men sin and give offence. Eg (imagine someone calling you fictional, even after all evidence points to you, have they not offended you even or later) Would you accept such person in your house after this disrespect and disregard and contempt {see 3 wrongs}? You won't even rent your house to.such a person.

And even if you did the right from today, would you always do the right? No

What about your wrongs of yesterday, do you not stand guilty and condemned for them eg a bandit who had murdered a family members and who still took ransom from the living members, does he not remain guilty of this wrong thing even if he had stopped kidnapping and murdering people?

So either way you turn, you are always going to be in trouble of being found guilty of wrong doing whether you accept God or not!

So the simple answer is No.
Got it.

You and MaxD, have both presented the same conclusion, Your God's love and mercy is selective, based on people who happen to share the same exact beliefs and ideas as you yourselves.

I have issues with your line of logic in your argumention, but that's not the topic and you did answer my question.

MaxInDHouse:

It's clear for those who humbly accept the truth without Jesus no man can be saved!

I at least appreciate your straight forwardness and honesty on the subject.

honesttalk21:


Specifically no one is the almighty God who alone determines the eternal reward. Subscribing to good advice from God derived through the prophets he sent over time towards good personal and interpersonal relations isn't bad.

At the time of individual death what is the guarantee that one is actual adherence to this guidance? There however is hope that by God's mercy one will be and still benefit of this in the after life. In any case the earthy life is often a good pointer to what this will be.

You can are free to believe only God will determine everyone's fate.
However the religious books which are understood to be the direct will of God are clear on who's saved or shown mercy.

Belief is not banal since it's a mental construct that arises from the interaction between our cognitive processes and the external world.

To be precise I stated that "In an atheist worldview, individual belief in a deity is banal"
Never made the argument that the broad general concept of belief is not useful or part of being human.
Just why it matters to a creator, and why someone is deserving of eternal punishment because of it.

According to social psychologist Irving Janis, belief is an attitude toward a proposition or situation in which an individual feels certainty.
This feeling of certainty can be based on rational thinking or emotional responses. For instance, someone might believe in the existence of God based on religious experiences or emotional connections to religious texts.

We are in agreement here, belief is not a deliberate choice, rather a subject of being convinced or certain about something for one reason or another.

StillDtruth:


And God has already Said it that He judges a person based on their actions as you expected.

"Who will render to every man according to his deeds." Romans 2:6

So, you have nothing here.

So can a person that isn't convinced of Jesus's existence, death or resurrection, just thinks Jesus is an inspiring fictional character, make it to heaven based on the merit of their deeds/ actions alone?

Yes or No, don't move the goalpost.

StillDtruth:


When you throw yourself into fire are you not the one who condemns and tortures yourself?

So you are.

I answered the question you asked with more which is why i asked you how many switches did it take you to turn and choose anti Godism, because you yourself did not take too much time switching it on. So you are the one deflecting and trying to dodge the import of my statement.

But the one question i did not deem fit to aswer is this one "Can you choose to not believe in your God this second, like flipping a switch in your head?" because, my personal belief is not the topic of discussion, so you changing post and making it personal.

It wasn't a question to your personal beliefs.

It was a question to the nature of belief itself, A person believes in God for example because they're convinced of his existence, due to one reason or the other, same goes for someone who doesn't believe in God. The subject of wether their reason is logical or valid is a different matter.

So I'm not of the opinion that belief is a deliberate choice, a person can't simply choose to believe or not believe in God, or other claims, as easily as flipping a switch in their head, it takes a matter of being convinced by one reasoning or another.

Of which my answer to it is i chose to believe God after taking due time to evaluate the matter and since the 90's till today, it has been a very sweet and fruitful and satisfying abd fulfilling living, so i have no reason whatsoever to unchoose my choice of choosing Him.

So your answer is, to paraphrase 'you thought about it and came to your conclusion, and are convinced of God's existence, so you can't not believe in him, you have no reason not to.'

Unlike you, your fear and dread for hellfire and death and punishment already makes you run helter skelter seeking for a remedy.

You're projecting again.

You know for someone discussing in bad-faith, you sure do act defensive and make accusations a lot.

Natbrowny:
Lies..if u owe a loan app 5000 naira since 2020. By now ur balance will be 250k..na everyday dem dey add 1k to ur default balance

That's illegal actually.
They can only charge you default interest a day for a maximum of 30 days.

If any app is doing this, they are not accredited by CBN and are operating illegally.

MaxInDHouse:

...

All these will be extremely impossible for anyone who fails to accept Jesus as his or her role model that's why God said He will destroy them! John 3:16-18

So the answer is it's not clear, but you think its most likely no.

StillDtruth:


Is the help not given BEFORE they fall into fire, water, electricity,relative, neighbour, doctor?

Is it not when they have fallen into the predicament that they are tortured?

Are you saying, that you will condemn someone to endless torture because of that?

That is what growth and adulthood means for it is the time and opportunity every one has and gets to evaluate their living and experience and to.ratify or discard choices imposed on you or made for you where you get to exercise your own right and choice/choices of how you want to live or die and other choices.

And how many switches did it take you to turn and choose anti Godism?

Very loaded language. You still haven't answered, do you think believing is a simple choice like flipping a switch or is it a subject of being convinced about something and accepting the conclusion?

Or how much convincing did you need to choose a life of fornication, whorechasing, adultery, drinking and smoking?

You're projecting.

StillDtruth:


What happens to a person who does not believe in

1) fire, water, electricity?
2) his relative, neighbour, doctor?

No man can live without believing,, so the begining of all life is choice of belief and what/Who you choose to believe vs what/Who you choose that you will never believe.

We will call such a person extremely ignorant or delusional, and get them possible help.
We don't subject such a person to endless torture for such a thing.

And a question, do you think holding a belief is a choice?
Can you choose to not believe in your God this second, like flipping a switch in your head?
Or is it a matter of being convinced enough to hold a certain belief?

honesttalk21:


Atheism is often misunderstood as a lack of belief, but it’s essential to recognize that atheists do hold beliefs, just not in the existence of gods. Atheists may have various beliefs and values that shape their worldview and guide their actions, even though they do not adhere to religious doctrines.

While atheism itself is not a belief system or a religion, atheists can have beliefs in areas such as ethics, morality, human rights, social justice, science, reason, and critical thinking. These beliefs are not based on faith in a deity but rather on rationality, evidence, and personal values.

A fair point, about the place of belief in atheism.

However in an atheist world view the level of importance placed on holding a specific belief in a deity, about a deity, or lack thereof is rather banal.
There is no world view for an atheist, about the worth of a person or total condemnation of someone for simply no sharing the exact same beliefs as them.

Maybe I didn't word the specifics of my concerns better.
It's something along the lines of Why is a God (which i assume is just and fair) predicating salvation or mercy based on specific beliefs held by a person and not their actions.

In sunni Islam for example there's the accepted idea that a believer might face some punishment if they've sinned, but will never face eternal hell.
But anyone else who isn't considered a believer is doomed for eternity.
This means a person could be the most abhorrent human to ever exist, could engage in murder, rape, theft etc. but if they held the correct belief (were a Muslim in this context), they won't face eternal hell, while someone else could have led a virtuous or ordinary life but are still doomed for eternity for not holding the correct belief about this specific God.
Christianity also is very specific about 'believing' in the death of Christ and his resurrection, as a prerequisite for salvation.

So this is the source of my struggle to comprehend. As what makes the belief part the most important thing to a creator of the Universe, or at least how do the theists make sense of this.

MaxInDHouse:


Thanks for this question!

My God said He created the earth to be a haven for mankind but something happened along the line that's why the earth is without peace today.
So my God wants sanity to return to the earth that's the purpose of Jesus Christ he will teach mankind how to become peaceful so that the earth can return to how He wants from inception.
So all those rejecting Jesus' counsel will be killed off and the earth will have peace with all the friends of PEACE trained by Jesus Christ.

Today the one and only organization fulfilling this prophecy is Jehovah's Witnesses!

Well, I thank you for your honesty in your beliefs here.

So does someone needs to believe the exact particular things you believe in regards to Christ as a JW to be saved.
Say someone leads a life along the lines of the teachings of Christ, but was never convinced Jesus really ever existed, but thinks they're an inspiring character and still values their lessons and acts them.

Would your God kill them off, for not being convinced of Jesus's existence, exactly like how you believe he is your Messiah?

MaxInDHouse:
Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen. Hebrews 11:1

Your dictionary definition of faith is inaccurate because faith has to do with action which reflects what the believer can perceive even though there's nothing to show those around him apart from his own works.

For instance the Wright Brothers BELIEVED that it's possible for a vessel to carry people and fly in the sky but do you think there is any evidence apart from what they're working to achieve?
Can you say you agree with their FAITH before they were able to make an aeroplane?

What about today?
How many people still doubt what the Wright Brothers BELIEVE before they produced an aeroplane?
Is the situation the same as when they first set out with their mission?

Well that's what FAITH truly means!

Ok, I'll give you your definitions.
But you haven't addressed the important part of my questions.

"why is belief the highest virtue, why the God(s) of these religions place such emphasis on this, and not any other action"
"why not having a belief is the worst sin imaginable?"

I know you're not part of the common forms of Christianity, and are JW. So you don't believe in damnation in a torturous hell as the rest.

But you still think that your God will cut off from all those that aren't JW.
My question is why? What makes believing in the same exact things as you the most important thing to your God.

A mainstream Christian might think you'll be damned for not believing in Jesus the same exact way he does.
So why is that the important part, and not something else like the actions you've done.

You mentioned the Wright brothers, and their faith in flying.
No one decided that because they believed in something different at the time, that they were deserving of some kind of torment, and neither did they think that to their naysayers.

StillDtruth:


The same way of living you know. Eg in the early 2000s when washing machine came to nigeria, most people still washed clothes with their hands as a way of life even though the washing machine also did the job "better".

As a way of life, a person can still today choose to continue washing clothes with his hands even though he can purchase a washing machine and adopt it as a way of his living.

So it is with the religion of devotion to God or the religion of devotion to Anti God, or religion of nonchalance and "i don't care" etc.

These are all different ways people choose and choose to live their lives based on their acceptance/rejection of any way they.can live as is offered or seen.

So you've given your definition of "way of life"
Mind relating this back to my questions.

You disagreed that belief is a virtue, and asserted that it's a way of life, this isn't a point of contention for me. So let's get back to topic.

"why the God(s) of these religions place such emphasis on this (belief in very specific things), and not any other action?"
"why not having a belief is the worst sin imaginable?"

StillDtruth:



Belief is not a virtue!

Belief is just a way of living.

Expand.
What do you mean by way of living?

Bradford111:

I did and she still cheated… is 6 inches a micro penis?

6 is marginally above average, fam.
Global average is 5.

Can no believer explain why belief is important.

And why not having a belief is the worst sin imaginable?

Belief
Noun
1. Mental acceptance of a claim as true.
"It's my belief that the thief is somebody known to us."
2.Faith or trust in the reality of something; often based upon one's own reasoning, trust in a claim, desire of actuality, and/or evidence considered.
"My belief is that there is a bear in the woods. Bill said he saw one.
Based on this data, it is our belief that X does not occur."

Faith
Noun
1.The process of forming or understanding abstractions, ideas, or beliefs, without empirical evidence, experience or observation

Belief or faith is considered the highest virtue in our 2 most prominent religions. Islam and Christianity.
To the point that only those who primarily believe in Christ and his death and resurrection are considered to have salvation in Christianity, and anyone else that doesn't 'believe' this faces damnation.

Something similar with Islam, in which belief in the Shahada, is the foundation to being a Muslim. That Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his last messenger, and only through 'belief' in this can one have to the mercy of Allah and avoid eternal damnation.

So my question is why is belief the highest virtue, why the God(s) of these religions place such emphasis on this, and not any other action.

Discuss.

adubam:


Thanks. I'm worried if the cost of $196 won't attract additional custom clearing cost

If the seller declares the price as $196 then it's highly likely, but a lot of AliExpress sellers are smarter than that.
But you might still get unlucky.

DeusXmachina:
Damn, I thought I was the only one struggling with this.
Fairmoney 130k 84k
Migo 160k
Kuda 40k paid off.
A friend that helped me clear some of my debt 40k paid off.

I'm a corper currently, so I've been using the small allawee I've been receiving to reduce the amount of debt on my head.
I was emotional at first, but I honestly no longer care. We'll all die someday and non of this will matter.

I've paid off Easemoney and Okcash first because they were the smallest amounts and were the most annoying.
Currently I'm prioritizing paying off my friend, because I value maintaining our friendship on good terms, over my worry about these lenders.
Kuda is next.

I feel bad for the not prioritizing migo, because they are the most patient and understanding of the bunch, and didn't charge me defaulting fees, after I contacted them explaining my situation.

The way fairmoney has been distributing me eh, call everyday.
They will call tier.

I've paid off all my other debt, remaining for fairmoney which is what I'm paying off right now, and migo which I haven't fully conceived how to pay off, but I'll keep rolling until I'm out of this rot.

EMILO2STAY:
abeg get out, I am done with you

Wait, I can't believe it took me this long to realize, you're Nairaland's resident flat earther.

Now everything makes sense. @Maynmann don't waste anymore time with this guy, his brain is soup.

I read through this thread in the past and didn't recognize you here.
https://www.nairaland.com/5993438/amazing-ex-muslims-quotes-sincere-truth/

EMILO2STAY:
I know nothing nor understand nothing about gravity because no man or thing can attest to its existence. but let me indulge you. gravity was first proposed by newton and he defined it as a force keeping every thing down otherwise everything floats! if this is true then why do mosquitos fly? why does heluim ballon floats? in my sense and even yours the weight of an object is what keeps the object down as long as that object is heavier than air every other object lighter than air floats which is the medium surrounding every object. this is a provable fact any can confirm. that is the reason why in the real world we use units of weight like ,kg, pounds ,tons mega tons. these are units of weight which attest to the weight of an object, however for gravity in the real world is obsolete. so much so that air craft pilots are required to ignore anything gravity when they are trained this is a fact but guess you dont know. oga I am more than well grounded on this subject matter. if you have are have any life proof of gravity bring it and pls dont embarrass your self by telling me to go read physics text book because a man is guided by his sense, he needs not read a physics text book to know the difference between solid ,liquid and gas. thank you lets begin.

Ok, now that I know your baseline.
This is what gravity is, to put simply is a weak force of attraction everything with mass (you might need to look up the definition mass) exerts, it is directly proportional to the quantity of mass, and inversely proportional to the distance to other things with mass.

Translation: gravity is a weak enough force that you can ignore when studying subatomic particles. But when observing larger parts of the universe, planets and stars it the dominant force. Because things at a large scale exert a more stronger force of attraction because they contain more mass.
And the force of attraction that gravity exerts is dependent one thing's distance to another.

You said "he defined it as a force keeping every thing down otherwise everything floats! if this is true then why do mosquitos fly? why does heluim ballon floats?"
Your definition is very elementary. Yes it is the force that makes things fall to the ground.
Mosquitos fly because earth has an atmosphere (air) and they flap their wings which pushes air down and themselves up, like how when you swim in deep waters you kick your legs pushing water down to keep yourselves afloat, if not you will sink.
Helium balloons float because helium is the second lightest gas that exists. Like trying to mix oil and water, oil being less dense than water will always float to the top, similar with helium gas which will float to the top of the atmosphere, which is held by earth's gravity.

You know things have weight, so have you asked yourself why things have weight or does your thinking not go that deep?

You asked for an example demonstrating gravity. They are satellites in orbit what force do you think keeps them moving around the earth

Do not mistaken your ignorance with common sense fam.

Gravity is as much understood and real as electromagnetism, and I'm sure you use a phone, so can your senses perceive the radio waves that give you a signal?