₦airaland Forum

shadeyinka:
I must confess it started with a bias: I was born in a Christian home and I believe in life after life

However, in my 200Ls I almost recited the shahada (became a Moslem). It was the Qur'an that led me back to Christ because of some inconsistencies I found.

Initially, my logics before I knew Christ was this:
Only three religions in the world were strictly monotheistic.
Two dealt with the issue of resurrection and reward for deeds on earth.
Judaism and Christianity shared the same God with Christianity.
Mohammed seemed to impose the nature of Jehovah on Allah.
The contradiction between the quran with respect to the Torah and New Testament was significant.
Allah could not be the same as Jehovah

Were these sufficient reasons?

Probably not. But it led me in the right direction.

I rededicated my life to Christ AND I began to grow in the spirit and in the knowledge of Him. I try to please God as my Father

BUT sometimes I fail miserably (I misbehave as a Christian). I stand up from my failure and move on knowing that He loves me in spite of my frailties.

I know Him. I only wish I can love Him more than this.

For those who never heard of Him, (eg Hindus), they will be judged according to their pure conscience. For those who reject Him, they've made their choice.

Do you agree tho that if you were born in india you would not be christian. It wouldn't even occur to you to be Christian?

From your post what I can gather is that its not necessary to know God for salvation. Is that correct? If your conscience is good then you're good.

Thats messed up. The last part. So hearing about him is more or less a curse. If you tell me about him, rather unconvincingly(cuz it usually is) and I don't believe you cuz im a skeptical, critical thinker. You have pretty much doomed me. Cuz i would have been judged based on my conscience but now I'm gonna be judged cuz I didn't buy into your unconvicing tale. I think y'all evangelists should stop trying to convert people and dooming them to hell. You are doing them a mis-service.
Mind you. If I did belong to another religion and followed it fully. If you brought your christianity to me I am not likely to buy into it. Just like if I tried to convert you to bhuddism your faith and orientation/conditioning won't allow you to give bhuddism a chance.

Don't you think it's kinda funny. That our religious orientation and our salvation as a result is due largely to pure chance of being born into the right culture that would expose you to God in way that you would be accepting of it. In others words alot of people are doomed simply for being born which is no fault of theirs.

shadeyinka:
We are like flowers who can choose to be beautiful or not!

We were created not for ourselves but for Him and his enjoyment. In the same earth where you say God did not drop enough evidence, millions have found Him: so what further excuse do you have. In fact the spread varied so much that you have no excuse.

The poor, the rich, the learned, the unlearned, the stupid, the the wise, the educated, the illiterate etc found him. I hope your answer will still remain : Not enough Evidence!?

Nope. My answer still remains. Why hasn't he touched others in the way he has touched these millions? Why not save everyone?

I should note that was born into christianity and used to believe. I stopped believing when i realised I didn't have any justifiable reason to believe and what I was engaging in was self deception. In similar fashion millions(im assuming) have converted away from belief. In the past all there was was religion, at a certain point in time(in europe at least) you would face persecution and possibly death if the church saw you as a threat. As the world became more enlightened and knowledgeable, especially after the world wars when people realised that God would not or could not do anything about the suffering going alot of people stop believing.

So if you ask me the trend is reversing. Its not that millions of people have found God. All they knew before was God and that still lingers today. It is that people are starting to see the BS laden in religious belief and people are opting out.

I had a conversation with this clever christian, usual argument in which neither party was swayed. A few months later she came out as atheist for similar I and many others have.

Speak to other atheist if you have the chance. Find out why they don't believe. You'll notice this too. I have no doubt that there are people 'finding God' but there are also quite a few realising that a belief in God is not justified and are opting out and those in the 2nd case are on the rise. The world is becoming more intelligent and critical. People are no longer buying into the whole religious thing. They are realising they don't need to turn to religion for wisdom, guidiance and morality.

You may not have realised it yet but religion is losing its hold on the minds of the masses.

alBHAGDADI:
What exactly is your point here?

Are you saying that if you beat your slave today and he dies, the court of law won't punish you because Jesus Christ died for us?

Secondly, because you no longer like your housemaid doesn't give you the right to sell her to another person. If you don't like her anymore, let her father come and pick her up. If you sell her to another person, you have cut her off completely from her father cos he won't have the power to redeem her from that other person who never had any business with him


Now, how have this sensible laws become outdated because Jesus died?

Wow. Wawuu!! You call these sensible laws? The old testament is detailing laws on slave ownership. How to own a slave, how to beat a slave and you call it sensible?

So you thinking slavery is right?
People should own people as slaves abi?
It's okay to buy and sell children as servants?
It's all morally correct?

alBHAGDADI:
Don't just talk, point them out and I will show you if they've been changed or still stand.

Only idiots speak without proof and expect sensible people to swallow their words.

You couldn't even tackle anything in the whole OP cos it's too hot for you.

Exodus 21:
7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself,[b] he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter.10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.
20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

For example

Theres more but too much effort to compile. Not worth the time it would take

shadeyinka:
Let me give an analogy:
You cleared your account and savings to purchase this latest iPhone with this super AI that confers on the phone intelligence. You wanted the phone to be like a friendly companion to you.

You got this phone only for you to discover that it doesn't recognize you as its owner. It refuses to serve your purpose in every way deliberately.

After some time, you'll leave your precious phone alone. You'll get yourself a cheap Teckno phone...and after several months, you'll throw your precious phone in the bin.



Arguments don't convert atheist. In fact, the more the argument, the more they pitch their tent against God (with no evidence).
It takes them to consider the minority reports and thus reconsider their earlier resistance against God.

The little nudges he gives are not enough for many. They want the spectacular hits.

The way it works is this: you draw near to God and then He draws closer to you.
You only really get to know God when you share your life with Him.

Except for grace, you can't reject and shut Him out while expecting Him to show up.

The spiritual world abhors a vacuum. It is either you are with God or with Satan. There is no neutrality: rejecting God is welcoming Satan as your overlord!

Speaking of which. Why do you believe in God? Why not Allah or Zues for that matter. Why not bhuddism or Hinduism. Even if its yaweh, why not Judaism. Why Christianity?
I'm hoping your answer is something more substantial than 'I was born into it'.

Have you ever thought about it? That maybe if you were born in india you would be hindu or china you would be bhuddist. And what happens to them? Your God will toss them in the trash too for being born into the wrong culture and adopting the prevailing religion of that culture?

shadeyinka:
I truly hope something would happen that will reverse our national direction. I love the see a Nigeria that rewards creativity, wisdom, knowledge. A Nigeria that rewards and motivates scientists, inventors and innovators. A Nigeria where religion and ethnicity will mean nothing when leadership and opportunities are to be given. A Nigeria where hard work is valued and honoured.

I hope it not too big a dream to have.

No dream is too big.
I hope so too but im not gonna stick around to find out.

shadeyinka:
Let me give an analogy:
You cleared your account and savings to purchase this latest iPhone with this super AI that confers on the phone intelligence. You wanted the phone to be like a friendly companion to you.

You got this phone only for you to discover that it doesn't recognize you as its owner. It refuses to serve your purpose in every way deliberately.

After some time, you'll leave your precious phone alone. You'll get yourself a cheap Teckno phone...and after several months, you'll throw your precious phone in the bin.



Arguments don't convert atheist. In fact, the more the argument, the more they pitch their tent against God (with no evidence).
It takes them to consider the minority reports and thus reconsider their earlier resistance against God.

The little nudges he gives are not enough for many. They want the spectacular hits.

The way it works is this: you draw near to God and then He draws closer to you.
You only really get to know God when you share your life with Him.

Except for grace, you can't reject and shut Him out while expecting Him to show up.

The spiritual world abhors a vacuum. It is either you are with God or with Satan. There is no neutrality: rejecting God is welcoming Satan as your overlord!

Ah so we are just tools for God's amusement. To be tossed away if we don't function properly. Meanwhile your analogy misses the fact the he made the bloody phone and programmed the AI. But as it didn't work as he liked, he said 'off to the trash with you'. The AI is sentient btw and can feel pain but what does he care, a useless tool that I created must be punished.

I didn't say argument to convince atheist. Arguments fail because your arguments are always poor and flawed, filled with unverifiable claims with no attempt at providing evidence to back what you say. How can you possibly convince anyone with a poor argument. And its funny that you who bare the burden of proof is mentioning evidence.

I said the same thing that makes you believe. The 'God revealing himself to you' thing. Why doesn't God do that to others. If little nudges don't work then a bigger nudge. You so adamant with the idea that people can't change. So your solution is 'let them all go to hell'.

Draw near to my mind abi? And the mental image that I'll called God.

So our loving creator, after failing to drop any signs of his existence except for a bunch of poeple making poor, unconvincing arguments. Will just sit down and say 'naaa, ive tried, they won't listen, let them all suffer for eternity'

shadeyinka:
1. My life is a gift to me by God.
But I use it to please the giver of the gift
2. Of Course, I am free:
Just like with my earthly parent, I am free but I deal with them with love and reverence
3. I do enjoy myself, eat well, aspire for great things, hopeful and sometimes create time for relaxation and fun.( I wish I could do more here sha!)

I was speaking philosophically: just stand back and look at people around you. You'll be sorry for mankind.

On a lighter note:
In the Presidential election that took place a while ago, I took time to look at the average educational class of us voters, and I saw that we are like primary 5 students.

My conclusion: how can such a class arrive at an objective reason to vote any particular candidate. It would take either luck or another 50 years before sentiments will not be our yard stick for deciding who rules us.

The reality of life show that the best of us may never rule us.

I really hope you do enjoy yourself and acknowledge and enjoy your freedom. Because really you ought to.

The 2nd part of your post is a Nigeria's problem and its probably gonna take 100 years before we may see a change for the better. Maybe after a revolution or something.

shadeyinka:
Unfortunately, there is no physical sign that will convert an atheist.

The book of Revelation show that at a time, the whole world would take up arms against "the � aliens" who have taken over earth's rulership.

If God wanted to do as you want, it means that at least once a year until the end of the world, God will have to come down to scare the hell out of us.

I think you view humans as somehow important. How do you feel when you kill hundreds of millions of bacteria in your toilet? Guilty conscience?

If God is just, shouldn't that serial killer who escaped mans judgement face his judgement?
If God is just, should untouchable rulers who murdered his subjects go scott free?
The Kidnapper who tormented people for money should go free?

If everything ended here on earth, we will at best be brute animals.

Do you really think everyone in hell will suffer the same judgement?
Even those in heaven don't have the same reward: hell is Gods refuse bin. He puts people who are useless to Him there.

You didn't answer my initial question actually. I asked if he has physically revealed himself to you. I think i know the answer. But the reason i asked is this: however God revealed himself to you. Why not do so to others. I often from theists that they cant convince me, that is up to god and only he will reveal himself to me when the time is right. I assume this revealing is not of a physical nature, rather an impression or feeling or something. Whatever it is, why not just do it to everyone?
You'll answer that the heart of men would not be convinced by such act or something along that line but did God try? I mean he is God right? If there is anyone that knows how to reach the heart of man, surely its their creator. But no. He just gonna sit there and watch people enter his refuse bin.

Seriously why do worship this guy lol.

He created man and created a refuse bin for his beloved creatures. You know cuz that's what a loving God does. Tosses his misguided children -who he made no attempt to guide- in his refuse bin .

He doesn't have to force anyone to do what he wants by SCARING THE HELL OUT OF THEM. What a lovely guy. He can just give them a little nudge in the right direction. You know. Like that conversation you have or thing you hear or read that lights a fire under your ass and propels/inspires you to take positive action.
You know.

Oh and to say there is nothing that can convert an atheist is untrue, unfounded and prejudice. Its that negativity raring its ugly head again. Have faith in humanity a little. Everyone has a trigger point. If you manage to hit it you can change their mind.

shadeyinka:
Me Feel sad?
You don't know me! Not one bit!

All things work together for my good! Not a hair from my head can fall without His permission and His thought for me is for good and not evil. I am His workmanship created in Christ Jesus.

Unfortunately, The truth is bitter: most of the times.

It's the truth that selfish/ evil people usually win in life:
How come Nigeria will not objectively vote for the best candidate?

If I seem sad, maybe it's because I speak with you.

That you don't think your life is your own. That you are free. That you have a right to life and exist in your own right. That is what I think is sad.
You may say 'yay, god is with me, makes me whole,gave me life and all that'. But underneath that you fundamentally believe that your life is not your own, there is no meaning to life, you are not whole, life is bad and everything is bad. I mean sure thank God that he makes things okay but were it not for him, all is just sadness, emptiness and suffering

shadeyinka:
It doesn't have to be appealing. In fact, it is difficult to do because we are human and basically selfish.

What really do you have that is not by Providence?

People who are 100 Times better than you in intelligence are 100 times behind you. Those when are 50 times stronger than you are lagging well behind you.

1,2 and 3 all point to one thing: Continuation of Life after death.
That is the reference!
Whatever a man sows, he would reap after this life
The implication of 2 is sowing non material things like joy, peace, helps?


You don't even have to agree with it. Everything is a choice we make! Good or bad, we'll reap our investment.

Oh. When i read that it didn't occur to me that you were refering to afterlife. Another questionable topic for another day. But okay i hear you.
Still just sounds sad tho.
I read somewhere, maybe it was here on nairaland can't remember but i agreed with it. It said something like, religion, particularly relating to afterlife is for people who have failed in life. It gives them something to lool forward to. Offers comfort.

shadeyinka:
It doesn't have to be appealing. In fact, it is difficult to do because we are human and basically selfish.

What really do you have that is not by Providence?

People who are 100 Times better than you in intelligence are 100 times behind you. Those when are 50 times stronger than you are lagging well behind you.

1,2 and 3 all point to one thing: Continuation of Life after death.
That is the reference!
Whatever a man sows, he would reap after this life
The implication of 2 is sowing non material things like joy, peace, helps?


You don't even have to agree with it. Everything is a choice we make! Good or bad, we'll reap our investment.

Oh. When i read that it didn't occur to me that you were refering to afterlife. Another questionable topic for another day. But okay i hear you.
Still just sounds sad tho.
I read somewhere, maybe it was here on nairaland can't remember but i agreed with it. It said something like, religion, particularly relating to afterlife is for people who have failed in life. It gives them something to look forward to. Offers comfort.

shadeyinka:
If this God existed with the big bang, understandable! We can apply every physical laws to him.

Unfortunately, not. He isn't subject to our rules. He is the discontinuity in all we know.

If He waisted when and where the physical rules do not apply, he can be boxed into our rules.

Your question:
The earth is a school for selection of homosapiens of a certain kind of trait. He want those who will love Him and relate to him through their own free will.

The Physical presence of God wouldn't change anything. The only thing that will work on men is if God executes instant judgement/reward for every action. Unfortunately, it negates the operation of free will of man.

At the end, everyman will choose his path!

Did he reveal his physical presence to you?
Free will as we know it is questionable but that's a topic for another day. Is it better that majority of man suffer for eternity in hell? Just to protect this notion free will?
Surely a little interference here and there would save these otherwise doomed people.
Me personally. If I saw any sign that points to God's existence beyond doubt I will convert instantly. This is just me but i strongly believe it applies to most atheist. Really just one convicing sign. Thats all it would take, just one real sign. Your God would rather watch billions march into hell?
This is the perfect, all powerful, all knowing , all good God that you worship?

shadeyinka:
The believe in God make you see that
1. There is law of sowing and reaping
2. Life doesn't consist in material acquisition
3. Loving your neighbor is the best investment a person can make in life
4. Trust in God when things go crazy around you
5. Your life belong to God. It is given to you in trust. Maximize its use.

Of course, to every action, there is a reaction

I wish I could meet you in person and talk to you. I feel for you honestly. I feel you're trapped in this mental cage.
Far be it from me to try to convert you to anything or away from your belief. I've met many other christians and they seem like normal happy people. You just seem sad.
I don't desire for you to change your religion but I wish you would change your perspective.

shadeyinka:
The believe in God make you see that
1. There is law of sowing and reaping
2. Life doesn't consist in material acquisition
3. Loving your neighbor is the best investment a person can make in life
4. Trust in God when things go crazy around you
5. Your life belong to God. It is given to you in trust. Maximize its use.

Of course, to every action, there is a reaction

No thanks.
Doesn't sound appealing really.
1 to 3 is obvious and doesn't require God
4 is just clinging, hope for the hopeless. A pacifier.
5 is just not appealing at all. Your life is your life. Why you giving this imaginary dude credit for what is freely yours. You exist in your own right. Don't let anyone take that away from you.

budaatum:
But what you describe above (a sex filled after life when you die) is not a life without meaning, although not a very good meaning for living, since it is the exact opposite - a reason for dying! And thankfully, no credible religion teaches such stupidity, (though some people do teach it).

A better meaning (reason) of life would in my opinion be, “[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1%3A26-28&version=NIV]Be fruitful[/url] and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” If you checked you'd find this is the reason most live.

As with your previous posts im with you on this one too. Biologically you have fulfilled your role(reason) by reproducing. Some studies even show that its after you reporduce that you begin to deteriorate. So you wanna live long then don't have kids lol

I didn't post that to address the meaning/reason for life tho. I posted it to illustrate how ones religious belief can lead to/promote some negative/distructive thought processes like 'blow myself up or 'life is meaningless'.

UyiIredia:
The problem I find with atheists is an inability to differentiate between spiritual/mental things as immaterial and the physical world and that leads to their main misunderstanding of the idea of God.

Hmmm. I know the difference.
I don't think there is a difference between spiritual and mental tho. In other words your so called spiritual world is really all in your mind.

budaatum:
Yes, convinced, and, not just "seen evidence that convinces me", but scrutinising that evidence, and examining my means of scrutiny too, since I might be deceiving myself, or you might be deceiving me. After all, even though I say I believe you, I would still require more evidence before I loan you a million.

Shows the poverty in thinking what I believe is the truth, I reckon. I could be wrong.

haha...i totally agree man
But for real pops is a billionaire and actually its 5m i need to borrow

budaatum:
That life is meaningless? Personally, I would not blame religion for the error of one individual.

True but it can promote that line of thought.
Extremist are extremist regardless of religion. But when you have a religion that paints a pretty picture of a sex filled after life when you die in service to God by killing so called hedons then its easy to make leap and actually go blow yourself if you believe it serves the greater good and has a reward at the end.
An ordinarily rational person can logically come to such conclusion if they fully believe that.

budaatum:
The statement "I believe" means, "I have absolutely no evidence whatsoever for what I speak of and I just accept it as so with no evidence whatsoever". Another word to describe me would be "very ignorant indeed", if I believed, that is.

"Believe" does not work for me either. It doesn't work for anyone. Things that are believed are things that are not exactly known. If they were known, one would stop believing them and know them instead. In Christspeak, [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7%3A24-27&version=ESV]believing is like building one's house on sand[/url].

I like that.
I would still add that one has to be convinced. I could tell you im a billionaire's son and you wouldn't believe me. Then I pull up in a G wagon(which could have been borrowed), you don't have all the facts but you've seen enough to say okay I believe you because you've seen evidence that convinves you.

shadeyinka:
Unfortunately, life is of a truth meaningless!

We are all in a race we don't even understand.

Why is it that some people with fame, power and riches commit suicide?
Why is it that some people unknown, uninfluencial and poor live happy lives?
Is fulfilment even real?

In a few more years from now, Bill Gates, Dangote will die and then the question is why amass that kind of money when nothing in life is guaranteed?

Aristotle, Alexander the great are known in history: is it to their advantage?

Life by itself is meaningless!

thats a sad view on life my friend. One of the reasons i dislike religious belief is because it promotes this kind of view.

People that kill themselves for the most part are haunted by demons(not literally, they are mentally disturbed) and its up to us normal to notice our fellow man suffering and help them if we can.

As I've said before that life comes to an end is what makes it precious. Frankly if it went on forever it will become a drag. So life your life, whatever that means to you. If you wanna go and amass alot of wealth, more power to you. If you wanna sit on the road and bring beer all day, who am I to judge.
Joy is from within, not in the things you acquire and achievements you make. If you are looking for joy and fulilment outside yourself, you'll keep searching till you die and you would have wasted your life.
When you die, you're gone, there will be noone there to reflect on the life well lived or regret the life wasted. It will be as it was before you were born. That's the end of you.
But life goes on, new people come in and have new experiences and go and the wheel keeps turning.

So just live your life. You know acronym YOLO. Make the most of it so when its time to go your last moments won't be full of regrets.

Its that simple really.

Its seems a belief in God causes people to see life in such a negative light. Which is just sad. Its a crime really. The belief tells you everythig is messed up and the only way it can be okay is through me. Then it has a hold on you and you feel you can't find fulfilment without it. Meanwhile you were born free and life was always yours to live to the fullest.
Its like stealing your watch and selling it back to you

shadeyinka:
God is already an exception. The laws that guide the computer cannot be used to bind the programmer
I just told you that God reveals Himself to a few people and these one communicate His knowledge down generation. Unfortunately, any experience of God is subjective and people like you will contend against it.

You have to be in the stream to experience the flow..no other way! If I told you my experience, would you believe? No!

I didn't break the logical flow of my argument. Natural events and laws did.

The bottom line still is:
1. Shut out Gods existence from your life
2. Make Gods existence part of your life
We all have to make a choice!

Na you did break your flow. You still attributing special features to this God that exempts him from the rules. There is little to no objectivity and no proof to your claims.

Honestly. Based on past experience i doubt your experience would be compelling. Alot of people do alot of 'trying to make it fit' for the whole God thing to work. You wake up in the morning like you would anyway and you insert God and say 'yay, thank God i woke up and didn't die in my sleep' or maybe more extreme you have an accident and survive which happens and say 'yay, its a miracle, thank god, god is good'. So you're right. Telling me your experience won't help.

One question tho. Why pick and choose who he reveals himself to. If the christian narration is true and my salvation depends on me first believing in and following the path laid out by God. Why is he subtle about his presence. Why not reveal himself and save everyone.

budaatum:
Lol! Don't miss the quotation marks. Perhaps I should have said "I can't explain it, just believe me" , then you might have noticed the irony in my statement (which I notice you did with your:


Christ advised that one should worry not about the Father in heaven, for, ‘[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A40-45&version=NIV;KJV]Truly I tell you[/url], whenever I buda do not do for one of the least of these I am proclaiming that there is no God.’


Point is, I don't have to prove anything to you, and if I have a brain and mind should be proving it to myself "beyond a reasonable doubt".

well i thank you for your directness and honesty. Unfortunately 'just believe it' doesn't work for me. Frankly I don't think it works for anyone. Belief is a function of conviction. If you're convinced you're not going to be by someone saying 'just believe it'. On that note i believe that alot of people who claim to believe dont even really believe they only feel that they ought to and answer yes when asked but really belief doesn't work like that and those people are just fooling themselves .

That's alot of believe lol

shadeyinka:
Now,
1. Is God a thing?
Certainly NOT so, He could be an exception to the infinite regression of "what cause the cause of the last cause"
2. The creation of the universe breaks all the physical rules and laws that make the present universe.
3. We can't trace beyond time T=0, hence our regression cannot go beyond that into the past.

In other words, the existence of God is beyond our mortal reasoning

God is an unknown as we've discussed before that you ascribe all these attributes to for which you still have no evidence or can't say how you know. The fact still remains that if you are going to make a logical argument you gotta follow it through. You can't set up your premise and introduce an anomaly that disobeys the premise you yourself set up just to make your point stick. If you're gonna start making exceptions for God you may well start making exceptions for other things and everything falls apart.

If God escapes our mortal reasoning then still how can any mortal say anythig reasonable about God.

shadeyinka:
The only thing I agree with here is that you write your own script but it isn't a gift nor meaningful knowing that you are not better than animals who live to eat and procreate.

Life is indeed meaningless if I live to work, make money and live well. Doing good by itself is also meaningless in the sense that how many of us acknowledge the inventors of the microwave oven, TV, electricity anytime we use the gadgets. It is useless to the inventors. It is possible that even the inventors grandchildren will live in poverty.
If we can't live forever, then life is at best meaningless!

Do you know the only things that are yours in this world:
1. The time of Fun and Happiness you had
2. The food you ate
Every other thing is meaningless

If we are to look at life strictly from an atheistic point of view,
1. Every man should maximise his pleasure at the expense of other because of the code of "survival of the fittest"

I think you know that the "uncaused first-cause" of everything must exist. The only problem is can He be such as the theologians (Christians, Moslems, Hindus etc) describe Him?

You're catching an ego trip lol. Why are you comparing yourself to animals and why feel the need to be superior. Why the need for acknowledgement. All of these are egoic desires. Doing good for its sake should be good enough not for recognition.
Life has no intrinsic meaning but it's not meaningless. You derive meaning from your vocation, you derive meaning from the precious moments you spend with those that matter to you, you derive meaning from simple things in life, you derive meaning from creating(artisticly), from bringing new life into this world and being part of the driving force maintain out spieces survival(bioloigcal purpose). Life is to be lived, in the present, its short and it comes to an end which makes it precious so enjoy it while it lasts.
It is certainly not my view that life is just to maximise pleasure. Thats the hedonistic view, im not condemning it but its wrong to say this is the view of athiests. I wanna live, learn, make an impact positively on the people around me, achieve my highest potential.
God is not needed for this. A lack of belief in a God doesn't stop you from living and experiencing a meaningful life. Frankly if you think it does then that is sad. Your meaning is anchored to this idea of God which is flakey. Instead of being achored to something deeper within yourself, your highest ideals. According to maslows hierachy of needs we all strive towards self actualization. Basically becoming our best selves in whatever circumstance we find ourselves, wherever we find ourselves.
That's how I see it.

MuttleyLaff:
There is nothing to elaborate on, not especially for someone that knows his onions like you are putting out to.

C'mon, share now, tell what the whole you've heard in the fulfilment and/or unfolding fulfilling of the Daniel Prophecy? What are you waiting for?

Lol I'm no know it all o. But I know what I know and what I don't. And I don't talk about what I don't know. Start talking politics or sports for example and imma just keep mouth shut. Even on this topic there is lots I don't know and when I don't know i say so.

For example I don't know of the daniel prophecy thats why im asking you to elaborate.

And I hope there more than one prophecy. Theres supposed to be numerious according to you.

MuttleyLaff:
Let's do the low hanging and rosy red ripe fruits first, how about what's Daniel's Prophecy, that is more recent, current, on going and something you call relate with

What exact and specifically have you heard so many times. Out of curiosity, I'll like to know what those are. Please feel free to share.

I think for myself more than you've thought for yourself my latest dude dear friend, thank you.

My nigga you gonna have to elaborate.

I've heard the whole 'its in the fulfilment of the prophies' repeatedly

budaatum:
"It's a mystery but I can explain it to you.
Just believe me!"

Man I'd love to hear it. Im surrounded by believers and they all claim there is something there and im open to whatever it is although my scepticism. If you can convince me beyond a reasonable doubt then please go ahead

shadeyinka:
I understand you very well.

I for now wouldn't push you to acknowledge the existence of my God but it is sufficient for me to show that such exists.

I am glad we agree that the physical laws break down at time T=0. If indeed it breaks down,
1. The origin of the universe must have a great cause.
2. The cause must be before time t=0
3. The infinite regression of the cause must lead to a final first cause:

The question is:
What is this "first cause"?
Is it a Being or plain Energy?

If it is a Being, then things make sense as He could be called the creator.
But
If it is Just plain Energy, then the infinite regressions proceed indefinitely and hence illogical.

If God is beyond time, it makes sense that no one can know and describe Him. Except if that God revealed a little of Himself to some men who pass the knowledge down. And of course along the line, distortions are introduced, imitations are introduced and hence over time the truth is distorted.

Of course God sometimes speak to some people. But one can't control when, how and what the conversation would be.

The believe in the existence of a creator is first a choice, evidence follows
The disbelieve in the existence of a creator is also first a choice, then evidence follows .


BUT,
If an intelligent creator exists, there MUST be a reason for the creation of everything: don't you think so?

Im glad we are starting to see eye to eye. And i like the point you've made.
However if You are to follow the idea of first cause then you should follow it completely to its ultimate conclusion you can't stop and make an exception for God. What caused God. If everything has a cause then what caused God and what caused the causer of God and so on then you're back to infinite regression. That's the problem with that argument. You introduce God as an entity that breaks all the rukes your argument stands upon. I still reside to saying we don't know and that is not a problem. The knowledge or lack there of doesn't have any effect on life really.

As for meaning. Its what you make of it. If you entertain the idea that there is no God and no ultimate reason for existence that means that you are here is a wonderful gift, you get to witness and partake in existence. You write your own script. Define what is meaningful to you and the reason why you are and live according to that. I don't think you can go wrong approaching life that way.
Unless you've been conditioned all wrong and you derive meaning from killing people or something lol but thats a conversation for another day

TV01:
As if the clearly scripted nature of the code that replicates life is not undeniable evidence of a creator behind said code? How can one not grasp this, or, see this and claim there is no evidence for creation? I can only see this as a kind of blind absolutism. I simply cannot fathom what else drives statements of this nature .

No sir, it is not. If two people both write an excel macro, any number of the coding elements or outcomes may be similar. That is not evidence for a common designer, just evidence that the scripting methodology is the same/similar. Further, it speaks more credibly to a sole designer, who is more likely to repeat script where desired outcomes are the same/similar.

Similarity in the scripts leading to similar parts, does not mean the parts are exact replicas. The structure and make up of limbs in all creatures that have them is different. It is not, as it is made to sound, like different cars using the exact same parts. The whole notion of "sharing DNA" in that sense is therefore flawed. That 2 creatures have DNA to produce a leg, does not mean that the "DNA is shared", although parts of it may appear common. In a paternity test it is true sharing, as that is a testing inherited DNA.

This is mistaken; we absolutely know what is going on. The difference is in belief as to how it originated. A script never arises without a script writer, neither a code without someone to encode it. TOE is not, in the first instance, a model whose purpose is to explain what is going on, it's a model created solely to deny and, attempt to disprove the obvious truth of creation.

Another common trope. As if "religionists" are not scientists or, do not apply scientific methodology. In terms of origins and the wonderful and complex variety of lifeforms, the scientific method s, in some ways quite limited. What happens is an "interpretation if what happened", based on the available evidence. But with advances in understanding DNA, it's scripting and complexity, the case for a creator is clear.

Creationism is not in competition with evolution. Evolution was designed to deny The Creator. The agreement of the Pope is not evidence and neither here nor there. But no surprise, Catholicism was used to formulate the theory of evolution along with heliocentrism to that very end.

No problem. It's nice of you to take time to share. Hopefully I've in turn articulated well enough to you.

Have a pleasant weekend.


Cheers

TV

You sha want to mention absolutism by all means dont you lol.

Okay let me clear something up for you mate. DNA is biological matter, acid I believe. IT IS NOT LITERALLY WRITTEN CODE, OR SCRIPT. That's just how we as human beings conceptualize and understand it. So this your insistence on written code that requires writer is completely unfounded. This is something i see often. You take DNA to mean literal code or writing and you argue from that standpoint, that is invalid.

You realise we have vegetative organs and so do some animals, relics of the past that are no longer useful as we've evolved to not need them so they enter a vegetative state.
Mind you the DNA that matches is what i refer to as shared DNA. When DNA sequencing is done and the gene responsible for certain attribute is AGGCCTGAAC for example. They find an exact match of this sequence in other organisms that share that attribute. I don't know how you translate this but having common DNA across very different speices points to the evolutionary theory that all life descended from a common ansenstor. That we share 98% of our DNA with our closest relative apes and even even 92% with mice further supports evolution.
That we have similar bone structure too supports this(im pretty much gonna repeat myself but try to be clearer). We had a similar ancestor, through the course of evolution, as the different spieces evolved and adapted to their unique niches the functions of these limbs changed, some became fins to cope with water, some wings for flight others legs/hands but the overall structure remains pointing to the fact that they came from a similar ancestor but branched off over the course of evolution to adapt to their various environmental circumstances.

But okay. How do you hope to explain this your creator theory beyond 'God did it'. How do you even explain God. Scientists have gone through pains to put forward their thories and models. You wanna introduce this inexplicable being and say all your theories are nonesense. The explanation is this guy did it. How does that aid in explaining or understanding anything?
You wanna claim absolute knowledge. How do you verify your claim? Wheres your proof?

shadeyinka:
I think you are being ruled by fear of calling that "unknown and mysterious" God. That unknown lives in a realm beyond time.

For me that "unknown and mysterious" is INTELLIGENT
And if intelligent, a BEING and must predate time T=0

For you, the "unknown and mysterious" is just laws of physics and chemistry which cannot be INTELLIGENT and therefore cannot be a BEING.


But don't forget that ALL the laws of Physics and Chemistry breakdown at Time T=0.

If the basis of all our sciences break down at Time T=0, is it logical to use the same laws of Physics and Chemistry to determine what was before time T=0?

Im being ruled by fear. I wonder how you came to that conclusion. God is a name for which you can attach whatever meaning you wish. Although when i say God in this context i refer to the God of the bible. Now you wanna say this mysterious God lives beyond, how do you know? I don't even disagree actually but how can you possible say anything about an entity that predates time? Don't you think you're being a little arrogant and getting ahead of yourself to claim such knowledge?

'[B]Unknown[/b] and mysterious' yet you know it to be intelligent.

I made no attempt whatsoever to explain before time. I specifically said it cant be known Soooooo I don't know where you're going once again with chemistry and physics. I completely agree that our sciences breakdown at t=0 thats why I say this is something that cannot be known cuz our tools for understanding and our very imagination fail at this point. So this being the case now how can you or anyone claim any knowledge about something so mysterious.

Its not even that i know there is no God. In this case i refer to God as the entity behind the universe's existence. I don't think there is reason to believe there is tho. My point however is if there is a God and as you pointed out it predates time. How the hell can you or any pastor, preacher, imam, philosopher say anything about this God. You can't possibly know this God yet every tom dick and harry christian claims comprehensive knowledge on this impossible to know mystery.
Humanity itself is very young on the universal timeline, its amazing what we have achieved really but we have our limits which we haven't even reach yet and knowledge of an entity that predates time and the universe is certainly beyond this limit. So anyone that claims such knowledge ultimately doesn't know what they are talking about and what they say amounts to nonsensical claims.

If this God does exist. As it remains a mystery. Why people build monuments, write books, gather and pray to this God is beyond me. Like what y'all know you are doing. Some individuals claim this God speaks to them, really!. Its not even pragmatic to consider this God in day to day life. Its not useful. It doesn't help to explain anything. It doesn't aid in our understanding of the world or ourselves. Nothing. So all the theist religious efforts made is completely pointless.
Just imagine a world where religious efforts and resources were put to better use. Imagine how far ahead we would be. Instead we waste time entertaining nonesense.
Look at our country Nigeria where we carry religion on our heads, where are we now. Look at less religious countries in europe. See how far ahead they are.
I don't know how you see it. But all this theistic religious hullabaloo is just a silly waste of time,effort and resources.

MuttleyLaff:
By numerous fulfilled and/or unfolding before our very eyes prophecies, for instance and/or example

Its actually funny now that i think about it. This thing you just said. I've heard it so many times. Infact alot of the stuff y'all say sound the same, like a broken record. Its like your pastors all tell y'all the same things. If thats the case i would advise you start thinking for yourselves and stop listening to ordinary men who bleed the same blood as you.