₦airaland Forum

MuttleyLaff:
By numerous fulfilled and/or unfolding before our very eyes prophecies, for instance and/or example

oh really. Please do enlighten. What are these fulfilled prophecies. There are numerous so im expecting a large post detailing some of the more obvious ones I've obviously missed.

shadeyinka:
What can be more mysterious than God!?
As I see you are hiding under "life is mysterious phenomenon".

As per design. Humans can see fractals as design. But you know the type we are talking of:
Oxygen Cycle
CO2 Cycle
Food Chain
Reproductive cycle
etc
These aren't fictitious imagination as ALL can see the pattern!


The most intelligent answer to your question still remains
"In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth"...and we strive to understand the biology, chemistry, physics and psychology of His design.

If you just pause a little, you will see that the laws of physics and chemistry at time T=0 is NOT the same as the present physical laws. This simply means that it is impossible to use the existing laws of science to postulate occurrences at time T=0.

What was existing before time T=0 ?
(by the way, T=0 is the time big bang took place)

You i don't even know what to do with you lol.
Mystery is something unknown. If you wanna say God is a mystery then yes I agree. But you probably won't stop there. You'd go on to give details about this mystery as if you knew what you were talking about and you'd say this mystery created the universe which amounts to 'i don't know how the universe was created' but once again you'd say it as if you knew what you were talking about.

Im not hiding behind anything. I don't know the exact origins of life. Noone does at the moment and unlike you im not going to claim to know. There is nothing wrong with not knowing. Somethings are not meant to be known, others are yet to be discovered. That I or anyone else doesn't know does not legitimise your claim yo knowledge.

The whole science thing you're trying to do. Wtf.

What you have said in response to my question is as usual an empty claim with no backing.

The beginning of time is a mystery something that is unknown. I would argue that i can't be known. Because that's where our imagination and knowledge ends. Everything that is, is the universe, before time and the universe there was nothing. Not nothing like a blank. Nothingness is the sense that nothing we can possibly comprehend.
Then there was a universe. Noone knows how or why. But from the point that time begun scientists have been able to model how the universe from a single infinitely dense point expanded to become what it is now and is still expanding at an accelerated rate

MuttleyLaff:
You have just confirmed you are a certified more confused than a chameleon trapped in a box of skittles person. There is God and not Gods, there are of course false gods and there are human beings as gods. Now you wouldnt believe human beings are gods because you dont know why and how why human beings are gods and you dont know when and how human beings became gods newest dear friend dude?

You are just lost my friend. Frankly i don't think its wise to reply you but what the heck.

Firstly. That there is God or Gods is more or less a matter of opinion. If im being fair that there is no god is a matter opinion too hence we have theists and atheists. I as an atheist simply don't believe there is enough compelling evidence to say there is a God or Gods.
Humans as Gods? What the hell? And im the one confused?
I don't know how and why humans are Gods. Dude. There is no Gods, humans are humans so i don't know where you are going with that.

Again.
People identify with their beliefs.
You believe in God and identify with that belief to which extent you are your belief and you God is that sense. Not that you are literally a god. You are your belief because you identify with it and as i said that is why i believe you'd get offended and defensive when your belief threatened, When in actual fact your person is not under any threat

How and why humans are gods lol. Where the hell did that come from and where are you going with that. Its a known fallacy and defence mechanism to acuse people of what you yourself are experiencing. I think you're the one confused here

UyiIredia:
Atheists also get defensive when their beliefs are threatened. Evidence for God? Evidence for religion? Atheists aren't exempt from that behaviour, otherwise what are you doing on the religion board?

Yes. Everyone does get defensive I agree. That's not why im here tho. Im here for entertainment. These sort of discussions provide adequate stimulation for me to be entertained.

Having said that. Theist more so than atheist get defensive and tend to attack their opponents. If you read through discussions or watch debates and you're being honest with yourself im sure you'll notice this too

shadeyinka:
Ok!
Life came out of chemical compounds which suddenly acquired the senses and developed irritability to certain environmental factors. Hence, the chemical compounds over several million years acquired ability to move about. They also learned to reproduce their kinds from scripts they have written in themselves called DNA. Then, they evolved and evolved over billions of years and here comes human beings.

What is TRUTH?
Is this TRUTH absolute?

Oh, I forgot.

The chemical elements which reacted to become compounds evolved out of nothingness. A big bang just happens to happen contrary to the laws of physics and instead of entropy keeping things disordered, the opposite happened. Order was created out of chaos! It was only until recently that entropy began to undo what was done before.

You want me to join you in believing that
Randomness can turn to order
Intelligence can come out of inorganic chemicals
I can completely rely on my senses to know the truth
Science is never wrong: science is the TRUTH
Mind Thoughts are just chemicals

You've got a lot of explanations to do bro!

I bet you've never attempted to look at the statistical improbability of another planet like the earth existing.

The fact that we see "intelligent design" does not say "don't study the mechanics" of operation of the design.

Yea im pretty sure you are purposefully trying to misunderstand at this point. You're trying to misexplain the theory so you can knock it down, very poorly i might add. If you went through secondary school i think you should understand evolution enough for it to make sense. If you don't understand you are choosing not to. Mind you, the origins of life itself remain unknown but im sure a great mind in the future might solve that puzzle through proper investigation and not just random claims or faith.

The big bang is NOT an explosion like a bomb is. Don't get yourself confused. It simply describes a rapid expansion from a singularity. Like with alot of science there still alot of mystery here too but there are great minds at work to figure it out. Like with evolution it is a theory and the best one we have as to the origins of the universe
Actually there are 100s of earth-like planets and possiblymore to be discovered. Get your facts straight.

You see intelligent design. I see life and existence, a wonderous and mysterious phenomena. Humans are pattern recognising creatures so its no surprise you see design. You'd look at random cloud formation and see a face, there is no face, its just clouds. So don't confuse yourself.

Im gonna stop now and pass it on to you.
What is your theory as to the origins or the universe and life. Please give a more intelligent reponse than 'God did it' that is an empty answer that doesn't explain anything

MuttleyLaff:
1/ My newest dear friend, I bet you cant tell why human beings are gods
2/ I bet you cant tell at what or when human beings became gods newest dear friend?

Dude why you trying to misunderstand me. Firstly i don't believe Gods exist. I thought that was obvious.

What i am saying is your belief in a God's existence is something you identify with and that belief being threatened causes a defensive response.

To be clear. No i do not believe human beings are Gods. That is ridiculous

MuttleyLaff:
What's wrong with that?
And hey, am I, all along being detecting some increasingly semblance of anti-semitism in your posts, huh?

Not quite right, it actually goes beyond and/or more than 2 thousand years ago and yep, the "church" discerned the biblical canon.

Mind you my friend mr or mrs @MuttleyLaff (i love that laugh lol) you have not said how bible stroies supposedly even older than 2000 years( as if that helps your case)hold any water today or what foundations they stand on.

Still just statements and claims without any backing

MuttleyLaff:
What's wrong with that?
And hey, am I, all along being detecting some increasingly semblance of anti-semitism in your posts, huh?

Not quite right, it actually goes beyond and/or more than 2 thousand years ago and yep, the "church" discerned the biblical canon.

Anti-semitism? Whaaaatttt. My nigga. How you figure that?

MuttleyLaff:
Now you are getting confused more than a chameleon dropped into and trapped inside a bag of skittles. We are gods, who happen to be creation(s) of God

Yes my friend. People unknowingly identify with their thoughts,opinions and beliefs. So in a very real sense. You are your belief. Your God is a mental creation of you and as you identify with it you are it. The degree to which you identify with it is the degree to which you are it.
No confusion there my friend.
Its the explanation i can come up with as to why people get so defensive when their beliefs are threatened

shadeyinka:
You are treating this case simplistically!

You arrived at your conclusion because you know without a shadow of doubt that vehicles are designed and made by man.

Let's assume this knowledge is not available to you. Like we all came to a certain planet and found millions of vehicles. If we came in with a mindset that since we didn't meet the designers and manufacturers, they cannot exist and that since the vehicles have similar anatomical structure,it must have been "evolution" that produced them.

You may have a problem of the absence of reproduction which aims agree with. But, couldn't the vehicles be "biological". Must the "vehicles" be in the form we can grapple with (metal, plastics and glass)?

Einstein's theory of probability will say "Absolute truth" cannot exist! Do you agree with that?

Parsimony: the simplest explanation is often the more accurate. You wanna jump through hoops to propose an unexplanable God as explanation for life because the obvious explanation is too simple? I don't get really. And biological vehicles from another planet? What? Why are you trying to over complicate this?
My posts are long die. I've painstakingly tried to explain my point as clearly as possible. I can't make it any simplier. If you don't get it really i think you are purposefully trying not to. Unless maybe you're like 12 years old in which case i guess I can't blame you

I don't know why y'all get so mad? What's so sickening about what I've said? I simply tried to articulate my view and i did so as respectfully as i could. Could it be because your God is a creation of you, your god is you and anything seen as a threat to your God or his existence is automatically translated as a threat to you?

OpenYourEyes1:
What dna evidence, anatomical similarities across species, and fossil records?


"Even in other fields like psychology, certain behaviours can be adequately explained from an evolutionary stand point."
What behavior

I think I've explained dna and anatomy in my other post. Please refer to it. The fossils found put together a picture of organisms that have been over long periods of time which from their anatomy and DNA that could be extracted show relationship between life now and then. A relationship that shows where some organisms evolved from. Shows us our ancestors in other words. Some of these fossils are remains of animals that have features of 2 or more of the animals we have today. Showing a common ancestory.

BEHAVIOURS
Behaviours such as our fight or flight response which was a mehanism by which our ancestors survived in the past( where life was more dangerous and they had to put with beasts in the wild) its an automatic response that is triggered even today when we feel threatened although we dont face the same dangers.

Even the fact that we are superstitious today has evolutionary roots. In the past our more bold, less superstitious ancestors would have had a much lower survival rate because mistaking a shadow or movement in the bushes in the past could mean death so those who survived were those who were more weary of these things. Today, although we don't live in the wild where a shadow could mean a predator, we are still scared of shadows and come with all sorts of superstitious explanations.

The fears that we are naturally born with. Fear of hieghts, fear of loud noises. Again in the past these spelt danger so the ancestors that survived are those who heeded these and we today inherited these fears from them.

Mating behaviours. People are naturally attracted to physically and socially(human's being social animals) superior mates because from an evolutionary stand point that will better guarantee the survival of our spieces. Even when it comes to sex. Alot of women have difficulty having organisms because it is not necessary for reproduction. While all men orgasim rather easily, The ones who couldn't would not have been able reproduce and would have died out.

Our disgust. We are naturally repulsed by things that spell danger. Rotten/diseased foods for example. The inability to be repulsed by these things would have meant death for our ancestors and indeed those who couldn't would have died out. Those who did survived and reproduced and today we have disgust as a defence mechanism agasint disease, a behaviour inherited from our ancestors

Im tired of typing lol. Mind you I'm no evolutionary biologist. Actually I'm an undergraduate and not even science so i certainly don't have all the answers. But i think I've able to make my point

OpenYourEyes1:
What dna evidence, anatomical similarities across species, and fossil records?


"Even in other fields like psychology, certain behaviours can be adequately explained from an evolutionary stand point."
What behavior

I think I've explained dna and anatomy in my other post. Please refer to it. The fossils found put together a picture of organisms that have been over long periods of time which from their anatomy and DNA that could be extracted show relationship between life now and then. A relationship that shows where some organisms evolved from. Shows us our ancestors in other words. Some of these fossils are remains of animals that have features of 2 or more of the animals we have today. Showing a common ancestory.

BEHAVIOURS
Behaviours such as our fight or flight response which was a mehanism by which our ancestors survived in the past( where life was more dangerous and they had to put with beasts in the wild) its an automatic response that is triggered even today when we feel threatened although we dont face the same dangers.

Even the fact that we are superstitious today has evolutionary roots. In the past our more bold, less superstitious ancestors would have had a much lower survival rate because mistaking a shadow or movement in the bushes in the past could mean death so those who survived were those who were more weary of these things. Today, although we don't live in the wild where a shadow could mean a predator, we are still scared of shadows and come with all sorts of superstitious explanations.

The fears that we are naturally born with. Fear of hieghts, fear of loud noises. Again in the past these spelt danger so the ancestors that survived are those who heeded these and we today inherited these fears from them.

Mating behaviours. People are naturally attracted to physically and socially(human's being social animals) superior mates because from an evolutionary stand point that will better guarantee the survival of our spieces. Even when it comes to sex. Alot of women have difficulty having organisms because it is not necessary for reproduction. While all men orgasim rather easily, The ones who couldn't would not have been able reproduce and would have died out.

Our disgust. We are naturally repulsed by things that spell danger. Rotten/diseased foods for example. The inability to be repulsed by these things would have meant death for our ancestors and indeed those who couldn't would have died out. Those who did survived and reproduced and today we have disgust as a defence mechanism agasint disease, a behaviour inherited from our ancestors

Im tired of typing lol. Mind you I'm no evolutionary biologist. Actually I'm an undergraduate and not even science so i certainly don't have all the answers. But i think I've able to make my point

shadeyinka:
Your argument is like saying:
All earth vehicles (from bicycles to trailers and other articulated vehicles) are anatomically similar hence a proof of evolution and not design!

So what is the truth?
How can truth be determined?

Yea I've heard that argument before and frankly its a poor one. Man made objects as the name suggests are obviously man made, its clear, there is a factory, raw materials are extracted and compiled together according to a plan/design to create them. That has absolutely nothing to do with evolution. C'mon, i don't know you but i would like to believe you're smarter than that.

Evolution attempts to explain the mechanism by which life, from simple beginnings evolved to the many complex forms we see today. If you read the my take paragraph you should have observed that I'm not even trying to make any absolute claims about evolution. What i am saying is as far as best explanations go. It is by far superior to anything else. Definitely more than creationism which really doesn't explain nothing, life is because a God noone can explain created it.

I really find it funny that you would compare life. Which grows-from a single cell(zigote) to a full adult human being/animal or from a small seed to a massive tree- to man made objects which is put together by gathering individual parts to create a complete form.

As for how we know and determine truth? Investigation my dear. We carry out investigations using the scientific method. We test findings to see if they work and if they do we keep them, if they don't we dismiss them and carry out further investigations. That's how we know most of what we know today.

How do you think we determine truth? Faith? Mr preacher man or a book says this is true and so i believe its true, no question.

johnydon22:
I think for truth to make sense it has to be absolute.

A non-absolute truth by definition cannot be true.

Some years back most people believed the earth was flat - this doesn't mean it is true that the earth is flat.

I also do not like absolutes but truth as a concept must be absolute or it is not truth.

Can't argue with that really.

TV01:
Creation


DNA is essentially a templated script, a code. Reproduction is only ever within the limits of that code and, there is no known mechanism for the script to acquire new code. Indeed, inherent within the code is a self-regulating function, designed to ameliorate any errors.

Anatomical similarities are not proof of "evolution". It is more a deduction (in the sense that it is opinion not evidence).

The mechanisms and dynamics ascribed to TOE do not bear real scrutiny. Theories in many fields are forced through the lens of evolution - for a number of reasons. They do not constitute proof, only an attempt to align them with the TOE which is in a sense inviolate, but not true.



Cheers
TV

Creation for which unlike evolution there exists no evidence whatsoever. I think I'll place my bets on the theory that at least has some backing.

Anatomical similarities is proof actually. That fishes and even birds have similar bone structure to mammals and indeed humans points to a common ancestory.

Similarities in DNA does too. I mean its been shown that we even share a small portion of DNA with some plants. To put in another way, you can tell family ties by similarities in DNA -you know, like paternity test-. If all things were created independent from each other there is no reason why pretty much all spieces in some way share DNA. The closer the speices to man e.g. apes the more of our DNA we share. All this supports TOE.

My take is this. Noone really knows whats going on. We all just came and met the world as it is. Even our best minds don't have it all figured out. What we do have are models and thories that attempt to explain life, existence, the universe and all that. Now, as far as that goes, creationism and models proposed by most religions do not provide good explanations as to what's really going on. So far following the scientific method has been shown to offer better models and explanations.
Science is constantly under scrutiny. False or inaccurate models are disproved, abandoned and replaced with better ones which offer more accurate explanations. Mean while christianity for example relys on a book from 2 thousands years ago written by far less knowledgeable people and even considers it a virture that the book is pretty much the same now as it was then.

To bring it back to the whole evolution vs creationism thing. C'mon there is no competition. Evolution is obviously the better explanation. It succeeds in explaining life as it is to a very high degree of accuracy. Creationism explains nothing and relys purely on faith. Even the Pope agrees with evolution and religious scholars. They don't argue agasint it. What they argue is that God had a hand in evolution.

The writing is a little long but i hope you read it entirely and get what im trying to say.

TV01:
And the demand for, or higher virtue of, "flexibility" over absolutes is?

In the absence of absolutes, the concept of relativism itself becomes tenuous.

Agree on "evolution". Especially relative to the bible, as "evolution" in any form is simply counter to the biblical narrative.

"Widely accepted" does not accords to truth in either a relative or absolute sense. And when you describe the absurdity of evolution "as the best explanation", do you mean in an absolute or relative sense .


Cheers
TV

I'm not gonna argue about absolutism and relativism as its opposite. Thinking in terms of those will only lead to pointless round about arguments.

Do you have a better theory than that proposed by evolution?

The evidence is clear, from DNA and anatomical similarities across different spieces, to fossil records. Even in other fields like psychology, certain behaviours can be adequately explained from an evolutionary stand point. But please if you have a better explanation i would love to hear it or read it as it were.

MuttleyLaff:
He had to touch base at somewhere, and so the Middle Eastern region happened to be a place of choice.

They not only hold water, they stand on firm ground and solid foundation(s)

He touched down and remained in the middle east, while the rest of the world still carried on with their usual activities. This was the best way the almighty creator of the 100s of billions of galaxies could make himself known to one small planet?

What water do they hold? what ground or foundation do they stand upon?
The scribbles of far less knowledgeable men from 2 thousand years ago. Put together by the church (in who's interest it is to promote the belief) whose sources cannot be verified.

UyiIredia:
Nna men you just complimented BS.

Well. Whats your take on it then?

MuttleyLaff:
You are either wet behind the ears or just plain oblivious that God walked on earth for 33 years and was beheld by many people on earth

Now, I am quite sure you are familiar with the phrase:
"When did we do all these things, but He replied that, as much as you did it for any one of these, you've done it to Me"

Warning :I am going to use the word supposed alot

The supposed almighty creator of the entire universe supposedly came to earth, to the middle eastern region and was beheld by a few thousand people supposedly for a brief period of 33 years then *poof* off he goes. How profound. And this unverifiable story is supposed to convince the whole world that there is a man in the sky who is particularly concerned with the affairs of man.

Its weird how theists refer to these bible stories as if they hold any water

Akin1212:
I have realized that most of you theists believe in this sky daddy because you don't think deep

This is so true. I have noticed this aswell.

Noone will be able to provide any concrete evidence for God's existene because none exists. God is simply a mental idol. A powerful one too, it seems, more powerful than a physical idol. Cuz the worshipers can carry it around everywhere they go and the lack of a physical form gives it this 'spiritual' aura but it is an idol none the less one that exists purely in the mind of believers

I don't like the concept. I can't argue against it cuz it just seems like a trap and im not going to attempt to. However I feel its way too rigid, once one regards a concept to be an absolute truth theres no room for flexibility. If there is one thing history has taught us it is that we usually don't know absolutely what is true and what is absolutely moral. Not too long ago people were sure the earth was flat and nothing was morally wrong with owning people as slaves, now that's all changed.

I'm more orientated towards relativism but not to the extent that absolutely everything is relative. When it comes to morality for example, homosexuality is a crime here in Nigeria but perfectly fine in some other parts of the world.

Ultimately I'm against rigidity and I feel thats what the concept of absolutes promotes.

On a final note. There is no such thing as athiestic evolution. There is simply evolution. A widely accepted theory which is by far the best explanation we have for life as it exists in all its variety.

theoriginalgood:
You know what good is, if humans were really good, do you think they’d ever die? All humans are truly evil beings because all humans die someday. You know that the wages of sin is death. Humans are all obviously sin. The fact is out. If there’s no God, do you really believe that humans and their temporary existences are the most superior beings available? That humans keep dying, cycle after cycle, generation after generation and yet something keeps existence running smoothly. God is the one who has been alive since the beginning to ensure that everything happens as it should. Death has been happening since the beginning of human existence.

If there’s no God, it would mean that everything in existence is defective and imperfect. Obviously, you know that there are good things in existence. God is the force responsible for the good things.

Furthermore, do you realize that humans have to depend on something other than themselves to know how they look? A baby would never know his face if it weren’t for a mirror. You think God uses a freaking mirror to see himself? There’s evidence to show that humanity is not perfect and therefore is evil. Only good is perfect. Undeniable truth.

What powers do humans have? Produce feces, produce urine, produce sweat, have anus, repulsive body odors etc Humans are 100% imperfect and therefore are all evil.

Diseases like cancer exist to terminate humanity. Humans don’t have the power to defeat disease because they are bad and evil. The force of goodness put such things in place to ensure that evil continues to die.

Yes, evil still exists today, but one day, evil would have suffered sufficient killer blows to be deleted. Then all humanity would be dead in hell for eternity. This all means that God is working secretly at the helm, even though you can’t see him.

You just exemplifed everything that is wrong with having a theistic belief. Complete nonsense. I read the title hoping to see a somewhat reasonable point being made. I can't believe the garbage I just read.

If you really believe humans are fundamentally bad or incomplete and you need to rely on a mental idol to make everything thing okay. Then I truely feel sorry for you.

Hats off to you dalaman and lordreed. You guys have tried really. I've read the entire thread and its exhausting. Its pretty obvious these people have no clue what they are talking about and they can't provide any evidence to their claims so they resort to attacking and beating around the bush.

'God is spirit and can't be seen by human eyes' . How can you then say anything conclusive about this so called entity that you can't percieve. I mean, if we go down this rabbit hole anyone could claim a host of things from dragons to leprechauns exist but can't be seen with human eyes, are we to believe every crazy ill informed claim made people? It's just silly really.

None of you(the theists) have said a single thing that amounts to anything. Just a bunch of baseless claims.