₦airaland Forum

Omooba224:
Lol! The moment you start to have manners the time you will have the true picture of the world. Shalom!

But I'm very sure that the true picture of the world is not the one you have.

Ihedinobi3:
Is there some Scriptural reason you have for saying this? I'm afraid it falls outside of my studies and I find it hard to credit. Could you explain why you believe this to be the case?

The ferocity with which Satan attacks the Law of GOD and seeks to make men disregard/lose sight of it, revealed in the trend of events from creation till now, convinces me that this position is true.

asuustrike1:
What are the charges levelled by Satan against God?

Among other things, that GOD was unjust is demanding worship from created beings, and that His eternal Law(the basic tenets of which are summarized and adapted for man in the 10 Commandments) was an unnecessary restriction/limitation placed on intelligent created beings.

[s]

Omooba224:
There many facts backing it up bro. I am not here to convince you however. Most stories in the Bible were copied from Epic of Gilgamesh, Avesta etc. Nothing special about the Bible..
Oral tradition is not 100% accurate in script writing as a result of variations in human response.
See the God of the Bible doesn't exist...

[/s]

Trash!

Ihedinobi3:
I find I must seek another clarification (your pardon). When you say, "just like no man is", I assume that you mean that until an individual has actually committed a sin, he is not a sinner, which is without doubt true, not that all humans are born without a sin nature which is not true. Except the Lord Jesus Christ because of His special birth, all human beings are born with a sin nature which is a guarantee that we will sin and therefore need a Savior.

Thus, even though we only become sinners when we actually commit a sin, not because we are so born, being born with a sin nature makes it completely impossible for us to escape becoming sinners.

While I may not understand what the term "sin nature" denotes, I don't agree with you on the Bolded. But the Bible says that Jesus "partook of flesh and blood with humans", and "was made like us in all things". Heb. 2:14,17.

But that is not the purpose of the thread, so I'll not go into it.

Ihedinobi3:
Very true indeed. I want to make sure that by "born with the natural evil tendencies of the flesh", you mean that our Lord was born with a free will like the rest of us and was just as capable of sin as Adam and Eve were which, without doubt, is very true indeed, not that He was born with a sin nature because He wasn't. Possession of a sin nature would have disqualified Him from being God's Perfect Sacrifice for us.

It seems you even put it for me in better words: He was as capable of sinning as any man is, yet he didn't sin even for once. He was not a sinner by virtue of birth, just like no man is. In short, he was human in every way, except that he never for once fell for sin. Surely our only hope is in Him.

Ihedinobi3:
A very good answer as far as it goes.

Man was created to replace the angels that rebelled. And he was deliberately created to be weaker than the angels so that in him all of Satan's lies against God will be destroyed.

As each human being chooses to obey God in conditions far less pleasant than Satan had, as each sinner repents and submits to God, Satan is proved a liar again and again. By the time human history is over, every single slander that he made against God will be answered emphatically so that "every mouth will be stopped" and God will be seen as just and righteous in all that He has done.

I especially agree with the bolded part. In Jesus Christ, Satan's charges(that is impossible to obey GOD's Law) are totally demolished and disproved. Christ, a man born with the natural evil tendencies of the flesh, lived all His life without ever committing sin even for once. Surely Christ is our hope, and in him Satan suffers a crushing defeat.

I've answered this question before. It was because destroying Satan immediately was not the best option. GOD is very wise. Satan had raised specific charges against GOD, and he accused GOD before the inhabitants of Heaven with these charges. His rebellion eventually turned into a full-blown war in Heaven. But had GOD destroyed Satan immediately despite the havoc he caused, that very act would have lent credence to the charges which Satan brought against GOD. So GOD cast Satan out of heaven, but spared him and allowed Satan to develop his intents to the fullest, so that intelligent beings can judge for themselves that he deserves to be destroyed finally. I can safely say that not voice of dissent will rise from the earth against the judgment which GOD will mete on sin and sinners, including Satan.

True, the earth is in misery today because of Satan's deceit, but surely the enormous doubt of GOD's just character that could have dominated the minds of created beings would have presented a far worse situation.

How do you begin to debunk false imaginations about the Bible when the proponent of such a false imagination won't even state the verse of the Bible he quoted?

Omooba224:
Baba, I have seen the work of copy and paste you did right there.

I copied and pasted and credited the source. Hardly a crime.

As far as the Bible is concerned it is not infallible and can never be a true word of God.

Your opinion. Not backed by any facts.

It is the true word of men.

Your opinion again

Why did the contradictions come so much?

But the harmonization of the alleged contradictions was what you read. Or didn't you read it?

How credible is the source of the gospels?

Very credible. The stories were told by witnesses to them, namely the apostles

You can't find an objective reply to my questions. So sorry to break your heart,

You mean nothing I answer will appeal to you? Don't worry. You didn't break my heart.

the Bible is full work of wise men. Kiss the truth.

I agree. Men who were wise enough to surrender to GOD to be used by Him. I've been kissing the truth since

nwabekeyi:
you are getting it all wrong.

I disagree

A perfect system won't need rules

That is what you think a perfect system is. But is the absence of rules not anarchy? Even robots which hypothetically cannot disobey their masters operate by rules. For me a perfect system is one that is not contaminated by the disobedience to GOD and the misery it brings

and their will be no standard for anarchy.

Makes no sense. Anarchy by definition is the absence of any standards whatsoever

if the earth were created perfect, there will be no rules hence there will be no anarchy.

anarchy is a factor of rules

You're only giving your own opinion of what a "perfect" earth is. For me, presence of rules does not mean imperfection. But I disagree that the absence of rules is the absence of anarchy. LOL. It's supposed to be the other way round.

Blakjewelry:
from your explanation, I think that is how the Bible came to be, men trying to think for the gods

No bro. Rather the Bible came from GOD to, amongst other things, guide how men think.

Omooba224:
Really? Read Matthew 28 and Mark 16 for a start and compare them.

Check this thread which I created on that issue:
https://www.nairaland.com/4102701/christs-resurrectionfour-accounts-one-reality

frank317:
Why will a perfect world need rules? If u said God created man perfect before he fell, then man wouldn't have don't wrong... There will be no standard for right and wrong because man would always be right... Except u wanna tell me that God ALWAYS EXPECTED man to fall.

LOL. A system without guiding laws is in anarchy bro. It means anything goes. Man was created perfect but with freewill, which means he could choose to obey GOD or disobey GOD(sin, fall). "Man would always be right" by what standard? Meanwhile what prevents GOD from having the pleasure of creating beings who could reciprocate His love by truly willfully obeying Him?

Only corrupt man thinks of killing... Why will an incorrupt person think of killing... U mean God created man with the ability to kill? Like seriously... Well thought he only became capable of sinning after he fell

If man was not capable of sinning he would not have fallen. Isn't that much obvious?

johnydon22:
That verse seem to not collaborate with what seem like a personal injection to the story to maintain doctrinal correctness.

Read that verse again.

" then the serpent was the wisest of all the animals "

"And God cursed the serpent"

It was the serpent which is wise and chatty. Read the verse again, God cursee the serpent for its transgression.

LOL. Even the Bible terms the ant wise when it refers the sluggard to the ant to learn her ways. A wonderfully functional brain that can be deployed to solve problems in animals is not the same as a conscience which can feel moral right or wrong. The serpent was simply a very intelligent creature. Maybe that was why Satan chose it. But the serpent did not have a conscience! Only creatures like man and angels have.

topdee:
Exactly! I was explaining in relation to GOD. There is nothing like freewill if there are repercussions: if one can be persecuted as a result of the supposed freewill, then the concept of freewill is an illusion, it's a hoax.

That whatever course of action which one chooses to embark on has a consequence does not in anyway hinder one from willfully embarking on such an action, even when one has full knowledge of those consequences.

frank317:
Stop twisting words bro... God planted a tree and asked man not to eat it. Man was not corrupt before he ate the fruit... If man is not corrupt, there will be no need for ten commandments...

Thou shall not kill... Only a corrupt man will think of killing

Who said if man was not corrupt, there would be no need for the 10 commandments? What then would have been the standard of right and wrong without the 10 commandments? Understand that the Law, the principles of which are summarized for man in the 10 commandments, is the standard of right and wrong with which GOD rules creation.

LOL. It is not really true that "only a corrupt man will think of killing". Killing is sin, a violation of the law(1 Jn. 3:4). But before Satan sinned in heaven, (of which the Law was the only standard by which his acts could have been adjudged sin) he was not corrupt. Sin is really a mystery, as the Bible says.(2 Thess. 2:7).

frank317:
10 commandment came after man fell... Its a correctional instruction not a preventory one

Not true bro. The principles underlying (and which are summarized and suitably adapted for man in) the 10 Commandments are eternal, and have always been there. That Law is moral standard with which GOD rules creation, and it is a reflection of His Character.

topdee:
Bro, you are contradicting yourself, : a perfect world can never become imperfect. Also, perfection and freewill cannot coexist; in a perfect world, the word and concept of freewill won't be a term.....

In a supposed perfect world, if you get punished/persecuted for your actions, then freewill didn't exist in the first place, likewise it means the world wasn't perfect from the get-go, in fact concept/words like persecution won't be a thing.

Perhaps we mean different things by the word "freewill"?

For my argument, freewill is in relation to GOD, and it is simply the ability to choose willingly either to keep GOD's law, or to disobey it.

Omooba224:
Jesus' resurrection has tons of contradictory verses.

It has none bro.

Having said that, the Bible is not true and it's more heretical to the Jews.

The new testament may be heretical to the Jews but it does not mean it is not true.

johnydon22:
in other words, God is incapable of creating such a world?

Which world?

johnydon22:
Genesis 3; 13 -14
Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.


***

And again, the whole story seems to explicitly show the serpent did it not the devil.

LOL, imagine the situation nah. Satan did not come in his true form, but came in the form of a serpent. All Eve knew was that she encountered a serpent talking to her. She was saying what she encountered. That was why she said "the serpent deceived me". Perhaps Satan was so masterful with his deceit and charm that Eve hadn't even suspected that it could have been Satan who came in the form of a serpent.

frank317:
Why does he care what Point rebellious Satan has to raise to the extent he had to put man at risk by planting the tree knowing man will fail.

LOL. Satan himself was and is still the risk. Think for a while that we have the 10 Commandments to obey today, just like they had a specific commandment to obey concerning the tree. Can we say that the risk to disobeying the 10 Commandments are the commandments themselves or Satan who tempts us to disobey? By the way, Jesus, who lived His whole life without defaulting in any of the 10 Commandments, showed that the commandments themselves are not a risk to keeping them.

They were Willfully obeying God until God planted the tree which gave Satan the opportunity to tempt them which led to the fall of man.



So God had to set man up to prove that rebellion should not exist? What are u even saying?

LOL. GOD did not "set man up". He didn't!

johnydon22:
Seems Jesus coming isn't really that necessary to gain salvation then?

Is that what you understood? Would we be talking salvation for ANY human being without Jesus Christ? It is simply, even Adam, from the beginning, was intimated that Jesus would be coming. Gen. 3:15. So, From Adam until Jesus came, people had faith in Jesus.

Some are convinced that Obama is a reptilian from another planet. Doesn't matter really.

Well, you may still be convinced one day.

johnydon22:
LOL so the serpent was punished for what it didn't do?

Using the word "punish" on the serpent is really meaningless. You could say GOD implemented a change on the anatomy and physiology of the serpent at that moment, because even the serpent does not have a mind with which to feel that it has been wronged or wrongly punished. But the message to Satan and to Adam and Eve has been passed by that act.

johnydon22:
God is omniscient and omnipotent; By definition he should be able to create a perfect world that still has freewill.

If he can't, this betrays a level of incompetence and defeats omniscience and omnipotence by definition.

God seem to be awfully incompetent at doing these things.

- Regretted creating humans (By virtue of omniscience is impossible)
- Created satan

The argument is; the actions of God as portrayed in the bible evidently contradicts the principles of God by definition of omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence.

Bro, all these things are what you think. I will not be surprised too if you say GOD is not omnipotent just because He did not create a square circle.

By the way, a perfect world with freewill was existing until imperfection came in through the only door through which it could have come in: freewill.

johnydon22:
So, why was the serpent punished?

While this issue is inconsequential to salvation, and admitting that I do not have full knowledge of GOD's counsels and ways(indeed I have only a microscopic little), I would say perhaps to leave a physical(perhaps temporary) testimony of His displeasure at Satan for deceiving man, registered on the creature in the form of which Satan came. The serpent is not a conscentious creature, and so it does not make meaning saying that it was being punished for what it "did". Satan is the one who is going to be destroyed at last.

johnydon22:
Seems God is awfully incompetent in creating the perfect world from the start

You mean you think GOD would have been more competent if He created robots incapable of disobeying Him?

wirinet:
You got your tree wrong. The fruit of the tree Adam and Eve ate was from the tree of knowledge and not the tree of life. After Adam and Eve eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge and acquired knowledge the Hebrew God had to guard the tree of life with 2 cherubs holding flaming swords to prevent them from eating from its fruit, else man would have become immortal .

I even missed that. LOL. One more thing wrong with his woeful attempt at mocking the Genesis account.

johnydon22:
Doctor Alien was it Satan or the snake that deceived Eve?

Satan, coming in the form of a serpent.

johnydon22:
Let me stress this a little; What do you think about those born before Jesus or never heard of Jesus? They'd be condemned too?

Not exactly. Before Jesus came, there was the law. For those that sinned without the law, they will also perish without the law.(Rom. 2:12). Likewise, those who did right before Jesus came will be spoken for by the merits of Jesus.

LOL to be honest, IF the Marvel Comics [/b] is true, i'd be an avenger.

I agree that the IF is a big one, but I can say for myself that I am convinced that the Bible is true.

johnydon22:
Not necessarily,

You can't deny it.

it seems more so for the fantasy genre. brings more thrill and drama to the whole thing.

Maybe true. Maybe not.

Imagine if God simply destroyed satan before he created Adam and Eve, there won't be any story

Not really. I would say the story would be different, with the situation probably being worse than this.