₦airaland Forum

De 6:4
New International Version
(©1984)
Hear, O Israel: The LORD
our God, the LORD is one.

The Father is the only one the israelites take as their God. De 6:10 shed more light on this.

To make God equal to His servant is not what the bible teach. It is not what the Holyspirit inspired. Meditate carefully on these things.[/quote]My response: Here is the full quote from Deuteronomy 6:4-9:

"The Great Commandment.* 4d Hear, O Israel!* The LORD is our God, the LORD alone! 5Therefore, you shall love the LORD, your God, with your whole heart, and with your whole being, and with your whole strength.e 6f Take to heart these words which I command you today.g 7Keep repeating them to your children. Recite them when you are at home and when you are away, when you lie down and when you get up.h 8Bind them on your arm as a sign* and let them be as a pendant on your forehead.i 9Write them on the doorposts of your houses and on your gates.j"

Yes! Love the Lord God first above everyone and every thing else. That means God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. In John 11:30 Christ says, "The Father and I are one."

Jesus said: "If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him." Philip said to him, "Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us." Jesus replied, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father?' Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works." (John 14:7-10)

This identification of Christ with God is emphatic in this chapter and throughout John. John 1:1 explains, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Jesus is the "Word of God" and the Word is God.

In John 14:28, Jesus seems to contradict His words above when he says: "You heard me tell you, 'I am going away and I will come back to you.' If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater than I."

Jesus is speaking of Himself in His humanity, in His limited capacity as a human being. As the Living Word of God, Jesus, in His divinity, has glory equal to the Father [John 17:5], yet He humbled Himself on our behalf and took on our humanity [Philippians 2:6-8 "Who, being in the form of God did not count equality with God something to be grasped. But he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, becoming as human beings are; and being in every way like a human being, he was humbler yet, even to accepting death, death on a cross."]. In His humanity God is greater; in His divinity the Father and Son are co-equal [8:24; 10:30] and in His essence, He and God the Father are One [John 1:1-3, 5:23; 6:62, 10:30; 14:9].

In the Gospel of John, every time Jesus says, "I AM the ......" (I believe it's a total of 7 times), He is declaring His Divinity. And the Jews understood it.

Just look at when Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I am". The Jews tried to stone him to death at these words. But of course, this is a good indication of why Jesus didn't talk more often of His Divinity.

In Mark's Gospel, He kept it hush until He was on His way to Jerusalem and He let Bartimaeus claim it to the people. What happened a week later? He died.

Boomark: God. Yes! God is responsible for Marys pregnancy. He chose to use mary and buy his Power(the holy spirit, the spirit of creation) mary got pregnant. Spouse means husband/wife. the holy spirit is not marys husband, JOSEPH is. Joseph is the person mary married to. Gods power acted in mary.

This is why an still saying that catholics are deciding for God what should be or what He has done. if i ask you for proof that the holy spirit is marys husband, you will start counting nairaland ceiling for me. the same holy spirit came upon the apostles. he was never their husband and wife.

My response: It is true the same Holy Spirit came upon the apostles that overshadowed Mary. But the purpose was obviously different. It would be absurd to argue the purpose of Holy Spirit's descent on the apostles was to cause those men to conceive children! (I will discuss the Holy Spirit's purposes further below.)

Remember that the angel Gabriel told Mary, “The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God." (Luke 1:35) In saying this, the angel was declaring to Mary that God would enter into a marital relationship with her, causing her to conceive His Son in her womb, For "to lay one's power over a woman" was a euphemism for "to have a marital relationship with her." Likewise "to overshadow" (Lk 1:35) by spreading the "wing" or "cloak" over a woman was another euphemism for marital relations. Did not the Lord say to His bride Israel: "I am married to you" (Jr 3:14) and "your Maker is your husband"? (Is 54-5:5; Jr 31:32)? And what is more intimate than what the Lord said to His bride: "You developed, you grew, you came to full womanhood; your breasts became firm and your hair grew... you were naked... and I saw that you were now old enough for love so I spread my cloak over you... I gave you My oath, I entered into a covenant with you and you became Mine, says the Lord God" (Ezk 16:7, .

St. Joseph legally married Mary, but tradition witnessed by old works of art retain the belief that he was a very old man at the time of his marriage to her. The marriage was never consummated. A marriage is not fully a marriage unless it is consummated. Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. They had a mystical marriage, a mystical bond. Mary made it clear she was a virgin and had no intention of ever "knowing man." She revealed this when she said, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?” (Luke 1:34)

St. Joseph was the foster father of Jesus, not His biological father.

One reason the Holy Spirit came upon them was to give the apostles teaching authority. The apostles were Catholic bishops. They were the authors of the New Testament.

A 2nd reason for sending them the Holy Spirit was to give the apostles the Spirit of Truth so they could lead His Church. Jesus said, "When He, the Spirit of Truth comes, He will lead you into all truth." Jesus promised St. Peter, the first pope, to whom He gave the keys that unlock the gates of heaven: "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18) So Catholics have God's promise that Satan and his demons will never prevail against the Catholic Church. GOD, THEREFORE PRESERVES HIS POPE FROM ERROR WHEN HE SPEAKS ON MATTERS OF FAITH AND MORALS ONLY. Not science, engineering, mathematics, architecture, etc.

Jesus said to Peter and the Twelve, especially in the words recorded in Matthew 16:19:to Peter alone: "Whatever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth, shall be loosed also in Heaven. For those words, binding and loosing, were well known in the teaching of the rabbis of the time. Their usual meaning was to impose or
remove an obligation by an authoritative decision or teaching. These words of Mt 16:19 were repeated to all what seems to be the twelve in Matthew 18:18. That they were not meant for all disciples but just for the Apostles is confirmed by Mt 28:16-29, explicitly to the Twelve. Earlier, at the Last Supper, in John 13:20 Jesus said to the Twelve: "Amen, amen I say to you, he who receives the one I send, receives me; he who receives me, receives the One who sent me."


A third purpose was to give His apostles authority to forgive sins. "[Jesus] said to them again, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.' And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.'” (John 20:22-23)

You wrote, "Deluded agreement. I see why you guys sheepishly follow your priest on both true and false doctrine."

My response:
Aren't sheep what Jesus called His followers? I'm happy to be a sheep! No one can enter Heaven without the virtue of obedience. BECAUSE THE ANGEL LOCKED ADAM AND EVE OUT OF PARADISE AFTER THEY DISOBEYED GOD AND DID SO AS A RESULT OF THEIR SIN OF PRIDE (produced by self-love), THEN THE KEYS THAT UNLOCK THE GATE OF HEAVEN ARE THE OPPOSITE VIRTUES OF OBEDIENCE AND HUMILITY. Perfect obedience was found in Jesus who hastened to his humiliating death on the cross. No one can enter heaven without obedience - not only to God, but also to those God put in authority over us, such as teachers, parents, police officers, government leaders and even religious authorities (as long as they don't order us to commit sins).

To whom did Jesus give the keys that unlock the gates of Heaven? St. Peter! Jesus said to Peter (whose name means "rock": "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell will not overcome it."(Matthew 16:18) This passage would not make sense if Jesus meant that Peter's authority were to die with him. So Catholics believe that Jesus intended for Peter's successors - the popes who followed Peter - should replace him as Jesus' vicar.

That is why Catholics obey the pope and the bishops who are in union with him. We believe that before Jesus died, he left St. Peter (and by implication, his successors) as His vicar on earth and gave Him authority to lead the Church. We believe we are all obligated to obey the pope until death. That is why we submit to the Catholic Church's interpretation of the Bible, which is a Catholic book. It is the Church that put together the chapters of the Bible. Catholic bishops (the apostles) wrote the New Testament. Therefore, only the Church can interpret it.

By contrast, when Protestants rely on themselves interpret the Bible, you get as many interpretations as there are Protestants.

Here is more evidence that Jesus is God. "Why then, said Isaias, listen to me, you that are of David’s race. Cannot you be content with trying the patience of men? Must you try my God’s patience too? 14 Sign you ask none, but sign the Lord will give you. Maid shall be with child, and shall bear a son,[3] that shall be called Emmanuel." (Isaiah 7:13-14)

Emmanuel means "God with us."

Here is evidence for God the Father.

Jesus said to St. Philip: "Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?" (John 14:10), and in other passages no less explicit (John 14:7; 16:15; 17:21). The oneness of the power and action of God the Father and God the Son is affirmed: "Whatever he [the Father] does, the Son also does in like manner" (John 5:19, cf. John 10:38); and to the Son no less than to the Father belongs the Divine attribute of conferring life on whom He will (John 5:21). In John 10:29, Christ expressly teaches His unity of essence with the Father: "That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all . . . I and the Father are one."

Critics lay great stress upon the text: "The Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). They argue that this establishes that the author of the Gospel held subordinationist views, and they expound in this sense certain texts in which the Son declares His dependence on the Father (John 5:19; John 8:28). In point of fact the doctrine of the Incarnation involves that, in regard of His Human Nature, the Son should be less than the Father. No argument against Catholic doctrine can, therefore, be drawn from this text. So too, the passages referring to the dependence of the Son upon the Father do but express what is essential to Trinitarian dogma, namely, that the Father is the supreme source from Whom the Divine Nature and perfections flow to the Son.

The rejection or destruction of religious images and the rejection of belief in the Trinity are Moslem influenced beliefs. Iconoclasm (the rejection and destruction of religious images) was first introduced in Christianity to the eastern emperors in Constantiople in the 8th century at a time when they were first being exposed to Moslem influence.

The doctrine of the Trinity is expressly taught in the New Testament.

The doctrine as to the Holy Spirit is clear. That His distinct personality was fully recognized is shown by many passages. Thus He reveals His commands to the Church's ministers: "As they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Ghost said to them: Separate me Saul and Barnabas . . ." (Acts 13:2).

The Holy Spirit directs the missionary journey of the Apostles: "They attempted to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus suffered them not" (Acts 16:7; cf. Acts 5:3; 15:28; Romans 15:30). Divine attributes are affirmed of Him.

He possesses omniscience and reveals to the Church mysteries known only to God (1 Corinthians 2:10); it is He who distributes charismata (1 Corinthians 12:11);

He is the giver of supernatural life (2 Corinthians 3:;

He dwells in the Church and in the souls of individual men, as in His temple (Romans 8:9-11; 1 Corinthians 3:16, 6:19).

The work of justification and sanctification is attributed to Him (1 Corinthians 6:11; Romans 15:16), just as in other passages the same operations are attributed to Christ (1 Corinthians 1:2; Galatians 2:17).

The Bible says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.’ (John 1:1) Who is called the "Word of God" in the Bible? Jesus Christ! This passage says, "and the Word was God." Hence Jesus is God. He gave evidence He is God by his miracles in the Bible too.

He declares that He will come to be the judge of all men (Matthew 25:31). In Jewish theology the judgment of the world was a distinctively Divine, and not a Messianic, prerogative.

In the parable of the wicked husbandmen, He describes Himself as the son of the householder, while the Prophets, one and all, are represented as the servants (Matthew 21:33 sqq.).

He is the Lord of Angels, who execute His command (Matthew 24:31).

He approves the confession of Peter when he recognizes Him, not as Messias — a step long since taken by all the Apostles — but explicitly as the Son of God: and He declares the knowledge due to a special revelation from the Father (Matthew 16:16-17).

Finally, before Caiphas He not merely declares Himself to be the Messias, but in reply to a second and distinct question affirms His claim to be the Son of God. He is instantly declared by the high priest to be guilty of blasphemy, an offense which could not have been attached to the claim to be simply the Messias (Luke 22:66-71).

You said, "So you now agree that Jesus did not create Mary but just her son. Have you forgotten how you are busy quoting that Jesus created all things to support the defeated trinity doctrine."

My response
I did not say that "Jesus did not create Mary but just her son." God created Mary, as he created all creatures, the heavens and the earth. It is possible for Mary to give birth to her Creator. The Bible says, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:16) Nothing is an obstacle for God.

Also read the Angel Gabriel's words to Mary, "And behold, Elizabeth, your relative, has also conceived* a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren; for nothing will be impossible for God." (Luke 1:36-37)

You said, "^^Let me ask you. Who created Mary? Was it Jesus Christ or not? If it is him, will it be wrong for you to say that Jesus is the father of Mary? Jesus in his Godly nature in heaven created Mary so JESUS CHRIST IS THE FATHER OF MARY. Do you disagree?"

My response. Naturally, God created Mary, and there are three persons in one God - Father, Son and Holy Ghost. She is a creature, but also the best of all of the saints. God the Father is her Father. God the Son is her Son. God the Holy Spirit is her Spouse.

I think you misunderstood me. I never called an angel God.

Jesus is God and Man. He was born both God and Man. His divinity was and is a part of His nature. The two natures of Jesus were never severed. Mary is the Mother of the God-Man.

Catholics did not "decide what is right for God our Father to do." Who gave Peter authority when He was on earth? Jesus told Peter whose name means "rock" that He would build His Church on that rock. He also told the apostles "He who hears you hears Me." (Luke 10:16) If you refuse to submit and accept the authority Jesus established here on earth - Peter, the first pope, and the apostles AND THEIR SUCCESSORS - then you are deciding what is right and wrong, good and evil. That's what Satan told Eve when he tempted her to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. "You will be like God".

Bukatyne: You said, "2. We don't have a heavenly mother else Joseph is our 'heavenly' father. Calling Mary our heavenly mother equates her with God."

The Bible says that Jesus will inherit the Kingdom of David, also called the Kingdom of Heaven. In the Kingdom of David, David's mother, Bathsheba was Queen. The King and Queen were not married in David's kingdom. They were mother and son. Catholics have always believed that God is far above Mary in stature and that only He is deserving of worship. She, however, is deserving of our respect because she agreed to do as God had asked by bearing Jesus in her womb and cooperating in the salvation of men.

"If anyone does not believe that Holy Mary is the Mother of God, he is severed from the Godhead." Gregory of Nazianzus, To Cledonius, 101 (A.D. 382).

Bukatyne: You wrote:
"1. Mary is not the mother of GOd (God has no mother)"

My response: A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).

Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

To avoid this conclusion, some people often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.

The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinctpersons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity.

However, if you do not follow the faith of the Church fathers, then your faith cannot possibly resemble what early Christians believed.

Ubenedictus, you said, "The spirit is perfect and what is born of the spirit is a spirit and has been made perfect by the spirit. You didn't expect that answer. Why not untwist it with the truth according to the scripture."

The Catholic Church would agree with your first sentence above, but I really don't understand what point you are trying to make here. What exactly is your objection? I don't understand why you are bothering to quote that scriptural passage in light of what I have posted.

From this evidence shown above we clearly see the following from St. Augustine of Hippo --

(1) The bread having been sanctified "IS THE BODY OF CHRIST"

(2) The wine having been sanctified "IS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST"

(3) We know Christ in the breaking of the bread; and not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ "BECOMES CHRIST'S BODY."

(4) When Christ said "THIS IS MY BODY" He carried "HIS OWN BODY" in "HIS OWN HANDS"

(5) Christ is "IMMOLATED" (sacrificed in an unbloody manner) in the Eucharist every day (this is not a re-crucifixion but a re-presentation or "making present" before the Father for our benefit and application of His one and only Sacrifice)

(6) Christ is Priest and Victim OFFERING Himself and in the daily Sacrifice His Body the Church OFFERS herself through/with Him

(7) All who wish to have eternal life must take as food and drink the Blood of Christ's Sacrifice in Holy Communion

( The souls of the dead in Christ find relief through the Sacrifice of the Mediator OFFERED for them and through the prayers of the living Body of Christ on earth

(9) The WHOLE Church observes this practice handed down from the Fathers -- the prayers of the Holy Church, the salvific Sacrifice, and alms and works of piety and mercy are offered for those who have died "in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ" so that the Lord might deal more mercifully with their sins

(10) Christ gave us His own flesh "to be eaten unto salvation" and no one eats that flesh unless He ADORES (worships) it in the Holy Eucharist since Christ is truly present and took flesh in the Incarnation

Sorry, Ubenedictus, but I really don't understand you either. Perhaps it is a problem of understanding one another's language since we live on different continents.

Here are quotes from St. Augustine of Hippo showing he believed in prayers for the dead and the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist (which only Catholic and Orthodox priests are capable of uniting Jesus with the host because only they, not Protestant ministers, can trace their their ordinations to the Apostles).

"That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, IS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. Through that bread and wine the Lord Christ willed to commend HIS BODY AND BLOOD, WHICH HE POURED OUT FOR US UNTO THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS." (Sermons 227)

"The Lord Jesus wanted those whose eyes were held lest they should recognize him, to recognize Him in the breaking of the bread [Luke 24:16,30-35]. The faithful know what I am saying. They know Christ in the breaking of the bread. For not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, BECOMES CHRIST'S BODY." (Sermons 234:2)

"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that THE BREAD IS THE BODY OF CHRIST AND THE CHALICE [WINE] THE BLOOD OF CHRIST." (Sermons 272)

"How this ['And he was carried in his own hands'] should be understood literally of David, we cannot discover; but we can discover how it is meant of Christ. FOR CHRIST WAS CARRIED IN HIS OWN HANDS, WHEN, REFERRING TO HIS OWN BODY, HE SAID: 'THIS IS MY BODY.' FOR HE CARRIED THAT BODY IN HIS HANDS." (Psalms 33:1:10)

"Was not Christ IMMOLATED only once in His very Person? In the Sacrament, nevertheless, He is IMMOLATED for the people not only on every Easter Solemnity but on every day; and a man would not be lying if, when asked, he were to reply that Christ is being IMMOLATED." (Letters 98:9)

"Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead find relief through the piety of their friends and relatives who are still alive, when the Sacrifice of the Mediator is OFFERED for them, or when alms are given in the church." (Ench Faith, Hope, Love 29:110)

"But by the prayers of the Holy Church, and by the SALVIFIC SACRIFICE, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. FOR THE WHOLE CHURCH OBSERVES THIS PRACTICE WHICH WAS HANDED DOWN BY THE FATHERS that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the Sacrifice itself; and the Sacrifice is OFFERED also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, the works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death." (Sermons 172:2)

"...I turn to Christ, because it is He whom I seek here; and I discover how the earth is adored without impiety, how without impiety the footstool of His feet is adored. For He received earth from earth; because flesh is from the earth, and He took flesh from the flesh of Mary. He walked here in the same flesh, AND GAVE US THE SAME FLESH TO BE EATEN UNTO SALVATION. BUT NO ONE EATS THAT FLESH UNLESS FIRST HE ADORES IT; and thus it is discovered how such a footstool of the Lord's feet is adored; AND NOT ONLY DO WE NOT SIN BY ADORING, WE DO SIN BY NOT ADORING." (Psalms 98:9)

This link to the website, Early Christians.org, shows that "The Virgin Mary has been honored and venerated as the Mother of God since the first centuries of Christianity.

http://www.earlychristians.org/docs_interest/Mary.html

There is a long list of early Christian saints on the website below including Sts. Jerome, John Chrysostom, & Methodius whose writings urge us to ask the saints to pray for us. The early Christian saints most certainly did pray to Mary because she is the most excellent saint of them all in God's eyes and He cannot say "no" to Her.

<http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryc4.htm>

St. Jerome said: "You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

ST. AUGUSTINE SAID TO PRAY FOR THE DEAD WHICH PROTESTANTS DO NOT DO BECAUSE LUTHER REMOVED 1 & 2 MACCABEES FROM THEIR BIBLE. "There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

There are even prayers on the walls of the ancient Christian catacombs asking the dead to pray for the living.

Early Christians attended the Catholic Mass; believed in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist (the communion host); prayed for the intercession of Mary, the angels and the saints; prayed for the dead; and had images of God, His Mother, and the Saints in their Churches.

Here is a 3rd century early Christian Church hymn of prayer to Mary called the "Sub Tuum praesidium" found in a Coptic Orthodox Christmas liturgy. It is still prayed in the Greek Orthodox, Byzantine, Ambrosian and Roman Church liturgies. Catholics sing it at Lent, as do these other churches. I have provided a link below. Look at the translation. The Greek and Slavonic translations calls Mary "Theotokos." (The term "Theotokos" is Greek for "Mother of God."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium


Under thy protection
we seek refuge,
Holy Mother of God;
despise not our petitions
in our needs,
but from all dangers
deliver us always,
Virgin Glorious and Blessed

Oh my Goodness! It's a prayer to Mary, Mother of God dating from 250 A.D. As Cardinal John Newman once said, "To know history is to be Catholic."

Clearly, the early Christian Church did not consider prayer to Mary a form of idolatry or adoration. The Sub Tuum prayer tells us that the early Christian community went to their motherly Advocate especially in times of trial and danger.

Here is the Biblical basis for the sacrifice of the Mass. Jesus said emphatically that He is the Bread of Life:

“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.b 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.” (John 6 53-58)

Many of his disciples - INCLUDING JUDAS - left Him after that because they didn't believe they had to actually eat His Body. JESUS LET THEM ALL GO. Pay attention to that because you don't want to behave like Judas did.

Luke 22:17, 19-20 - (At the Last Supper) - “Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he said, ‘Take this and divide it among yourselves;…’ Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, ‘This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’ And he did the same with the cup after supper, saying, ‘This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.’ “

Protestant ministers cannot confect Jesus in their communion hosts because they cannot trace their ordinations to the Apostles. Only the Apostles and their successors (Catholic or Eastern Orthodox priests and bishops) are capable of confecting Jesus in the Eucharist.

Catholics believe in the REAL PRESENCE OF JESUS CHRIST IN THE EUCHARIST (THE HOST) AT MASS.

Scientific evidence for the REAL PRESENCE OF JESUS CHRIST IN THE EUCHARIST is widely available in Eucharistic miracles. But the link I am sending you shows an atheistic doctor's discussion of the laboratory tests done on 3 of those miracles - all of which took place at Mass in different cities or countries in the 1990s and in one case on a different continent 1300 years ago. The scientific laboratory tests revealed that all three Eucharists consisted of human heart muscle, with the cells still beating. All shared the same DNA and blood type from a Middle Eastern man. Here is the link to the YouTube video:
<
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbg_dhI4XCs>.

Frosbel wrote: "Does this scripture sound familiar : Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger."

What is the definition of worship, Frosbel? Isn't true worship sacrifice to God? Do you see Catholics making cakes of bread for Mary? Do you see priests offering the sacrifice of the Mass to Mary? Do you hear them saying they offer Mary their bodies and souls? Do you see them pouring out drink offerings to Mary? Of course, you see none of these things. Protestants have forgotten what true worship is. True worship involves sacrifice. Protestants don't realize that because their definition of worship is singing and hearing sermons. Protestants eliminated true worship - the sacrifice of the Mass - 500 years ago when they eliminated the Mass from their services.

What don't you understand? The sacrifice of the Mass?

Whomever wrote this message shown below offered no real debate or evidence. There is only an assertion made and negative labels attached to what I wrote. Can that really be considered a non-emotional response? Here is the message:

"What utter nonsense. JESUS reigns as LORD forever more, no co-equal among MEN , not even MARY. May will NOT rule with JESUS as a QUEEN. She is to be blessed but never put on an equal pedestal with JESUS. Where do you Catholics get these strange doctrines from ? Blasphemous catholic church."

Catholics would agree that Jesus reigns as Lord forever more, no co-equal among Men, not even Mary. Logic and Biblical evidence reveal that Mary is Queen of Heaven. The Catholic Church has stated that Mary is not on an equal pedestal with Jesus. These things are not disputed. We agree with you. But if Jesus is the King of Heaven, logic says Mary is Queen of Heaven! Revelation 12 proves it!

Boomark: You wrote:

"Let me tell you things that are insuits to God.
2."Man making Mary a goddess."

Protestants judge Catholics uncharitably by accusing us of worshiping Mary and "making Mary a goddess." Ask yourselves what is involved in worship? Pagans worshiped their gods and Jews worshiped God by offering sacrifices. People today don't know what it means to worship God by making sacrifices. They imagine it's about singing and hearing sermons. In the Catholic view, Protestants don't know what worship means because Protestants eliminated the sacrifice of the Mass 500 years ago in their services. In the Protestant view, if you are praying the rosary to Mary, that's the same thing as worship.

We worship God by offering Him the sacrifice of the Mass. This worship consists of offering God our lives, our souls, our minds and our bodies as a living sacrifice (Romans. 12. 1-2)

No Catholic priest offers the sacrifice of the Mass to Mary. Catholics do not offer Mary sacrifices and, therefore, do not worship Her. We honor Her because she has such a high place in God's estimation that He took His flesh from Her. No other creature on earth was given this honor. She has totally unique place of honor in heaven and therefore also amongst all of God’s people on earth.

We honor the saints (including the Blessed Mother) not for who they are, but for who God made them to be. We honor in them the completed work of grace. We honor in them their faithful obedience, which itself is a gift from God. The Blessed Virgin says, “the Almighty has done great things for me!” We honor Mary and the saints because we are struck with delight and awe at the wonderful things God has done for them. As the moon reflects the sun, so the Virgin and saints reflect the light of Christ.

Boomark: You wrote:

"Let me tell you things that are insults to God.
1. "Man chosing who becomes the queen of heaven nd of Gods kingdom."

My response: There is Biblical support for calling Mary Queen of Heaven.

Mary as the Queen of Heaven is tied in with the Old Testament concept of the royal household. Because the King had many wives it was impossible for one to be Queen. Therefore the King’s mother served in the role. The Queen Mother sat on a throne at the King’s right hand and helped rule the kingdom. Access to the King would often be through the Queen Mother and she would ask favors from the King for those who asked her. You can see an example of this in I Kings 2: 17-25 where Solomon is on the throne next to his mother Bathsheba.

David prefigures God the Father; Solomon prefigures Jesus; and Bathsheba prefigures Mary.

Read Luke Ch. 1 where it says, "You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end."

Luke is saying here that God would give Jesus the throne of his father, David. What is David's throne that Jesus will inherit? Throughout Jesus' ministry, he repeatedly spoke of His kingdom - the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus is the King whose kingdom never ends. Who is Mary? His Mother. Let's use logic here. If he is the King of the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of David, the Kingdom of Heaven, then who is the Queen? Mary is the Queen Mother of the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of David, the Kingdom of Heaven. If Jesus is to reign as King forever, then Mary will reign as Queen Mother forever.

Revelation 11:19 and Revelation 12 provide support for Mary's Queenship. As you read Revelation 11:19, keep in mind that in the Old Testament, the Ark of the Covenant carried the Word of God. In the New Testament, Jesus is the Word of God. Who is the Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament? Mary, who carried Jesus in her womb for 9 months is the new Ark of the Covenant. It is one of her titles in the Catholic Church. Revelation 11:19 says:

"Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm."

Revelation 12 follows. It speaks of the "woman clothed with the sun" and "crowned with 12 stars." This passage represents both Mary and the Church:

"A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman* clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.a 2She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.* 3Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon,* with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems.b 4Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.c 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.* Her child was caught up to God and his throne.d 6The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days."

Jesus is the child "destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod." Mary is his Queen Mother. If Jesus' Kingdom will never end, then She, too, will reign as Queen forever.

When Protestants compare Mary to a pagan goddess, it insults God. The angel Gabriel revealed who Mary is when he said to her, “'Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.' But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. Then the angel said to her, 'Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.'" (Luke 1:28-30)

An ANGEL was the first to say these words to Mary. Are human beings better than angels that they can't honor her in the same way that St. Gabriel honored her?

The Bible further states that: "When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, 'Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.'” (Luke 1:41-45)

A non-existent, pagan goddess does not fit this description of Mary, so stop offending God and His Mother by drawing that comparison!

If,as Protestants say, Catholics are committing the sin of idolatry by putting statues and other images in their churches, then Protestants also commit the same "sin" by using all sorts of religious images: Pictures of Jesus and other biblical persons appear on a myriad of Bibles, picture books, T-shirts, jewelry, bumper stickers, greeting cards, compact discs, and manger scenes. Christ is even symbolically represented through the Icthus or fish emblem. Why is it ok for you to use images, but we Catholics may not? Be consistent and practice what you preach.

The Catholic Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.

It is a falsehood to argue that early Christian saints did not venerate images. There were many saints, many of them monks, who were martyred or tortured for defending the Catholic faith in the 8th and 9th centuries, such as Sts. Theodore and Stephen.

Look at the images of the catacombs here that show early Christian art. Were the early Christians idolaters?

See images of Christ, the Last Supper, David in the lion's den, etc. Why, I even see images of Mary!!! Look here:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=images+of+early+christian+art+in+catacombs&hl=en&client=firefox-beta&hs=gpf&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=OJU3Ue29M6Gp2gXN2IHoAg&ved=0CDAQsAQ&biw=1228&bih=660>

See images of the cross, St. Dionysas, a shepherd carrying 2 lambs, etc.: <https://www.google.com/search?q=images+in+catacombs&hl=en&client=firefox-beta&hs=oD0&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=D5E3UZTlEsOo2wWA7YFo&ved=0CDAQsAQ&biw=1228&bih=660>.

The Catholic Encyclopedia says on its page entitled, "Veneration of Images":

"That Christians from the very beginning adorned their catacombs with paintings of Christ, of the saints, of scenes from the Bible and allegorical groups is too obvious and too well known for it to be necessary to insist upon the fact. The catacombs are the cradle of all Christian art. Since their discovery in the sixteenth century — on 31 May, 1578, an accident revealed part of the catacomb in the Via Salaria — and the investigation of their contents that has gone on steadily ever since, we are able to reconstruct an exact idea of the paintings that adorned them. That the first Christians had any sort of prejudice against images, pictures, or statues is a myth (defended amongst others by Erasmus) that has been abundantly dispelled by all students of Christian archaeology. The idea that they must have feared the danger of idolatry among their new converts is disproved in the simplest way by the pictures even statues, that remain from the first centuries. There are especially pictures of Christ as the Good Shepherd, as lawgiver, as a child in His mother's arms, of His head alone in a circle, of our Lady alone, of St. Peter and St. Paul — pictures that are not scenes of historic events, but, like the statues in our modern churches, just memorials of Christ and His saints.

"St. Ambrose (d. 397) describes in a letter how St. Paul appeared to him one night, and he recognized him by the likeness to his pictures (Ep. ii, in P.L., XVII, 821). St. Augustine (d. 430) refers several times to pictures of our Lord and the saints in churches (e.g. "De cons. Evang.", x in P.L., XXXIV, 1049; St. Jerome (d. 420) also writes of pictures of the Apostles as well-known ornaments of churches (In Ionam, iv). St. Paulinus of Nola (d. 431) paid for mosaics representing Biblical scenes and saints in the churches of his city, and then wrote a poem describing them (P.L., LXI, 884). Gregory of Tours (d. 594) says that a Frankish lady, who built a church of St. Stephen, showed the artists who painted its walls how they should represent the saints out of a book (Hist. Franc., II, 17, P.L., LXXI, 215). In the East St. Basil (d. 379), preaching about St. Barlaam, calls upon painters to do the saint more honour by making pictures of him than he himself can do by words ("Or. in S. Barlaam", in P.G., XXXI). St. Nilus in the fifth century blames a friend for wishing to decorate a church with profane ornaments, and exhorts him to replace these by scenes from Scripture (Epist. IV, 56)....St. Gregory the Great (d. 604) was always a great defender of holy pictures."

Do you see now how far Protestants have departed from what the early Church believed? The Catholic Church still retains the beliefs of the early Church.

"This is synonymous to offering incense to the cross, pure idol worship. the brazen serpent and the cross have served their purposes."

I find that a remarkable statement for a Christian to make. It's an appalling attitude toward the cross on which Jesus died. Shame on you.

You wrote, "All these things were made under God's supervision and to specification, Ex 25:9. it is not a random images made by the imagination of man like what we have today in catholic churches." As a Bible-believing Protestant, tell me where in the Bible it says God specifically prohibited the construction of other statues. He prohibits the worship of idols. In fact, when the Israelites started worshiping the image of the serpent, it was destroyed. But Catholics repeatedly tell anti-Catholics that they do not worship statues. Therefore, statues are not the same as idols. God made that distinction in Exodus 20 and 25. Statues, like photographs of family members, are reminders to us of God and His friends, those we Catholics love, whose lives we wish to emulate.

You said, "Quote from your Bible where God commanded us to make image of MARY." Why do you believe God had to specifically command us to make an image of Her? He authorized us to make statues in multiple places in the Bible. Why don't Bible-believing Protestants believe the Bible? The Bible isn't the sole authority. Apostolic teaching AND the Bible are.

You said, "Quote from your Bible where Mary was made Mother of God and Queen of Heaven." Denial that Mary was the Mother of God has to do with the denial that Jesus is God. It is called the Arian heresy to deny Christ's divinity. The Catholic book, the Bible (some of whose chapters have been removed by Protestants) isn't the sole authority that Catholics rely on. Apostolic teaching is the other authority.

Let me ask you this question. Is all of what there is to know about God contained in the Bible? Does it contain all of the mysteries of God? Of course not! When you read a book, you make inferences. If Mary bore Jesus in her womb for 9 months and if Jesus is God, then logically, she is the Mother of God. The title, Queen of Heaven, was bestowed on Our Lady at the Council of Ephesus in 431. In the Old Testament monarchy the Queen of the Davidic Kingdom was the Queen Mother. The Kings, for reasons of state and human weakness, had many wives, none of whom fittingly could be called Queen. That honor was reserved for the mother of the King, whose authority far surpassed the many "queens" married to the king. We see this is the role Bathsheba played with respect to King Solomon and the occasions when the Queen Mother acted as regent on behalf of juvenile successors to the throne.

The role of the Queen Mother, therefore, is a prophetic type of the Kingdom role of Mary, just as the role of the Davidic King is a prophetic type of the Kingdom role of Jesus. Jesus inherited the Kingdom promised to David, who was told that one of his descendants would rule forever. The angel Gabriel revealed this fact to Mary at her Annunciation,

Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end." (Luke 1:31-33)

Aside from the prophetic types present in the Kingdom of Judah, there is also the text of Psalm 45, which when speaking of the Kingdom of God also speaks of its Queen.

Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad. Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir. Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him. (Psalm 45:6-11, KJV)

Jeremiah 7:18 refers to: Queen of heaven: the Assyro-Babylonian Ishtar, goddess of fertility, whose worship was introduced under King Manasseh and was revived after Josiah's death. Cakes shaped like stars (Ishtar was identified with the planet Venus) were offered in her honor.

But Protestants interpret the Bible individually, so what you think it means and what the next Protestant thinks it means are two completely different things. Catholics, on the other hand, submit themselves to the authority of the Magisterium.

Bravo Johnnylap! Boomark, God authorized you, me and everyone else to honor Him and His friends, the angels and saints in Heaven (of whom Mary is the perfect saint, Mother of God and Queen of Heaven) when He told the Israelites to put statues of angels on the Ark of the Covenant. The authority is there in the Bible, and Bible-believing Protestants should do what they claim to do - follow the Bible. It was the belief of early Christians that images of Jesus and the saints could be painted on the catacombs. Why don't Protestants agree with the beliefs of the early Christians and Fathers of the Church?

David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."

During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).

One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Biblical pictures in their Sunday school books. If we Catholics followed the logic of Protestants, then Protestants are idolaters! If they have photographs of their loved ones in their homes, they are idolaters! But as long as Protestants don't worship the images, they are not idolaters!

Catholics have statues in their homes and Churches because men are weak, and they are often distracted during prayer. Anti-Catholics charge that we worship the statues, but this is what only the uninformed say. Like Protestants who have images in their Sunday school books, we use the images in our churches as teaching tools. Like Protestants who display photographs of their loved ones in their homes, we are fondly reminded of our Heavenly Father and Mother when we look at their images. It is a reminder to pray, too.

In the Bible it is recorded that as Jesus was dying on the cross, He said to St. John standing at the foot of the cross with Mary, His Mother, "Behold thy Mother." He told Mary, "Behold thy son." How many Protestants honor Mary, their Mother? How many Protestants follow Jesus' command, "Behold thy Mother"?

The devil hates Mary because he knows the Book of Revelation (Ch. 12) speaks about the Ark of the Covenant (Mary) appearing in the sky and the Woman crushing the head of the dragon. When Protestants tell people to ignore Mary and not to pray to her to intercede with God on behalf of the people, that's exactly what the devil wants them to do.

Read the books of Esther and Judith in the Bible. Mary saves her people during the Apocalypse by interceding with God on their behalf, just as Esther and Judith once did when their people were threatened by their enemies. Esther and Judith foreshadowed Mary and her role in history as the Woman of the Apocalypse who intercedes with God to save the people from Satan and his allies on earth during a time of great persecution of Christians. Queen Esther interceded with the king and protected her people from annihilation on February 13 - the 13th day of Adar when the Jewish people were allowed by the King to defend themselves.

Esther's name means "Morning Star," and Psalm 22 speaks of her as the Morning Star. One of Mary's titles is "Morning Star." Our Lady of Fatima appeared on May 13, 1917. The Miracle of the Sun (witnessed by 75,000 people and reported in the newspapers of the day) took place on October 13, 1917. Our Lady of Fatima wore a star. She accurately predicted the rise and fall of Russia. She said World War I was about to end. (It ended on November 11, 1918.) She said if men didn't stop offending God, there would be a far greater war. World War II began 22 years later. She said Russia would "spread her errors throughout the world." What were those errors? Atheistic communism, attacks on religion, priests, nuns, the family, the introduction of legalized abortion, materialism, etc. She said fashions would change and become offensive to God. All of this took place. By the way, Sister Lucia, one of the Fatima seers, died on February 13, 40 minutes before sunset in the Hebrew month of Adar.

Thus it seems that even Lucia’s death accentuated the entire Fatima message, manifesting a kind of heavenly post-script: “Hear, O foolish people, and without understanding: who have eyes, and see not: and ears, and hear not.”

In the Scriptures, the 13th day of Adar is one with historical portent. It marks the Machabees’ liberation of the Holy Land after a four-year combat; the battle throughout the Persian Empire during the reign of Esther; and the day warriors fasted before going out to war. [6] The theme becomes obvious: An epic battle of God’s ecclesia against her enemies.

Jovanna: Tell me why God, then, contradicted Himself (as you Protestants say He did) by forbidding us to worship idols (Exodus 20), but then right after that, He directed the Israelis to build what Protestants wrongly call "idols" - statues of angels on the Ark of the Covenant. (Exodus 25)

I'm still waiting for a Protestant to explain to me why he or she believes God contradicts Himself. No one will explain it, but you and your fellow Protestants make continual assertions that statues are "idols". You can't defend the indefensible. God does not contradict Himself.

God did not forbid us to build statues. He forbade us to build and worship idols. There is a difference. Idols include anything you worship, i.e. gold, silver, money, your job, your home. Anything you make more important than God is an idol.

If you have pictures of your family in your home, then, according to Protestant teachings, those pictures are idols. Does that really make sense to you? When you love someone, you proudly display their pictures in your home.

Look at the art in early Christian catacombs found in Rome. There are images of God and His saints painted on the walls of the catacombs. Were the early Christians idol worshipers?

Protestants departed from the one true faith of Jesus Christ in the 16th century. Unlike Catholics, Protestants do not believe the same things that the early Church Fathers and the other early Christians believed.