₦airaland Forum

BeansAndBread:
Salam Aleikom brother, I love the Eko type of Ewa ganin and buredi, it makes my day wallahi.

walaikum salaam I was right. I sensed that....lol

AlMuflihah:
U see those points up dere are very true...i'm a biochemist okay... camel's urine is now being used in modern day medicine as it contains anticarcinogens and anti toxins,it has tremendous health benefits...scientists are working on d correct dosage for medical treatments...it's used in treatment of skin diseases...and hair too...modern day science has proved prophetic medicine as authentic...go an ask google

good to know. ......now tell those fellas that camels piss is sweet

Demmzy15:
Jazaka Allaah kayran brother BeansAndBread, your moniker is very funny tho!

the brother must love Ewa aganin and Buredi. I was confused when i first noticed his moniker

And you funny too the way u worded it "brother BeansAndBread"


Following............

Scholar8200:
The Bible clearly says the Word was God and that the Word became flesh and being found in fashion as a man, He made Himself of no reputation and became a Servant. Hence all those descriptions of human body etc are in order!

And which Bible version, who wrote it and did God or Jesus approve of it?. Christians believe God is omnipotent, omniscience....that He has no beginning nor ending. But reading your same Bible, if you believe Jesus is God, then there is conflicts here bcus we read in the Bible about Jesus limitations. We read his beginning and his death. So you will have to question Bible writers how they got it mixed up.

All this was after the Word became flesh!
That was because the Word has become flesh!

And when he became flesh, which means his power was limited. Who was then the authority of heavens and controlling angels, water and sea, birds and animal and fishes, Jinn and other unseen while the flesh was on earth?.....did he put the heaven in autopilot

For the same reason! Just when He said none is good but God alone, He wasnt implying that He was sinful but Yes, the Word had become flesh!

You really getting complicated. This issue of Jesus being God and man at the same time is a theory borne of innovation. Since Jesus is the authority in Christianity, it only makes sense to confirm this theory from him directly. Where did he make statement like he was God that became flesh?

I will look out for the First Person Pronoun - I.

Meaning?. Muhammad(p) used the first person pronoun as well "I" guarantee paradise.......'

Now did Mohammed mean he will open the gates of paradise to the person? But Jesus said He will send the Spirit and that the Spirit will come In HIS NAME.

Sorry, he is not a gate-man. It is euphemism of saying "you are granted paradise" or "I grant you permission to enter paradise". Simple isnt?

Now, do you mean Mohammed was referring to himself doing it when this was said:

Surah Al Hijr Chapter 15 verse 29

“When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.” [Al-Qur’an 15:29]

You just got this wrong. Muhammad's word is not in the Quran. The verse you quoted is the word of Allah

But Jesus was referring to Himself in accordance with the prophecy of John the baptist that," He shall baptize with the Holy Ghost"

There is a difference!

Reference?

Now be sincere, was Muhammed saying he will go to prepare that place for those category of people? When report had it that he said (i stand to be corrected) that he could not tell where he was going after death(quote the correct statement in case that report is not right)!

Are you being literalist here?. At underlined, i understand what you meant. Here is the verse

Surah 46:9

Say: “I am not the first of the Messengers; and I do not know what shall be done with me or with you. I follow only what is revealed to me, and I am nothing but a plain warner.”


Muslims have no problem with this statement at all. We have NO DOUBT that Muhammad {Allah's Peace and Blessings be upon him} and his followers will go to paradise. One of the common understanding of this verse is, a muslim who claims to follow Islam but he has bad attitude, he does not observe obligatory duties often (like skipping salat, not fasting ramadan or follow the rules, not paying zakat etc), such a person should not expect the prophet to intercede for him/her. We have to help ourselves first by obeying and observing religious duties.

Like a saying goes, "Heavens help those who help themselves". Besides, there is tafsir for this verse goes thus:



Its background is this: When the Prophet (peace be upon him) presented himself as Allah’s Messenger, the people of Makkah raised different kinds of objections against it. They said: What kind of a Messenger he is who has a family, who moves about in the streets, eats and drinks and lives a common man’s life. There is nothing special about him, which might distinguish him above the other people and therefore we may know that Allah has specially made this man His Messenger. Then they said: Had he ban appointed a Messenger by God, He would have sent an angel as an attendant with him who would have announced that he was God’s Messenger, and would have punished with a scourge every such person who had behaved insolently towards him. How strange that God should appoint a person as His Messenger and then should leave him alone to roam the streets of Makkah and suffer every kind of humiliation. If nothing else Allah should at least have created a magnificent palace and a blooming garden for His Messenger. He should not have been left to depend on his wife’s resources. Besides, these people demanded different kinds of miracles from him and asked news of the unseen. They thought that a person’s being God’s Messenger meant that he should possess supernatural powers so that mountains should move at his bidding and deserts at once turn into green fields. He should have the knowledge of the past and the future events and of everything hidden from others.

An answer to the same has been given in these sentences, and each sentence contains a world of meaning.

First, it is said: Tell them, I am not a novel Messenger. That is, my being appointed as a Messenger is not a novel event of its kind in the world so that you may have some confusion about the characteristics of a Messenger. Many Messengers have come to the world before me, and I am not any different from them. Never has a Messenger come, who did not have a family, who did not eat and drink, or who did not live a common man’s life. Never has an angel descended as an attendant with a Messenger, heralding his prophethood and carrying a whip before him. Never have gardens and palaces been created for a Messenger and never has a Messenger been spared of the hardships which I am suffering. Never has a Messenger shown a miracle by his own power, or known everything by his own knowledge. Then, how is it that you are bringing forth these strange criteria only to judge my Prophethood?

Then it is said: Tell them also, I do not know what shall befall you tomorrow nor what shall befall me. I only follow that which is revealed to me. That is, I am not a knower of the unseen so that everything of the past and present and future should be known to me, and I should have the knowledge of everything in the world. Not to speak of your future, I do not even know my own future. I only know that of which I am given knowledge by revelation. More than that I have never claimed to know, nor has there ever been a Messenger in the world, who made that claim. It is not a Messenger’s job to tell the whereabouts of the lost articles, or tell whether a pregnant woman will deliver a boy or a girl, or whether a sick patient will live or die. In conclusion, it is said: Say to them, I am no more than a plain warner. That is, I do not possess divine powers so that I may show you the wonderful miracles that you demand from me every next day. My only mission is that I should present the right way before the people, and should warn of an evil end those who do not accept it.


Ibn Kathir quotes Al Hassan Al Basri explaining the statement "Nor do I know what will be done with me or with you":

As for the Hereafter, I seek refuge in Allah and he (i.e. the Prophet) knew that he was going to paradise, but he said "I don't know what He (i.e. Allah) will do to me and to you in this life. Will I be kicked out just as the Prophets (may Allah bestow His peace and blessings upon them) before me were kicked out? Or would I be killed just as the Prophets before me were killed?"

And this is the opinion that Ibn Jareer (i.e. Tabari) took and insisted that there should not be another opinion in this matter; for there is no doubt that this is the suitable explanation that suits the Prophet (peace be upon him). This is because in regards to the Hereafter it is certain that he (i.e. the Prophet) will go to paradise along with those who followed him. And in regards to this life, he didn't know what was going to happen to him or the polytheists of Quraysh. Were they going to believe, or disbelieve and be punished and extirpated for their disbelief?


Now, did we not read similar statement of Jesus in the bible? Jesus said i can do nothing


"So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise" John 5:19


"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' Luke 13:27

Why wont Jesus just 'forgive' them since he has power to do so according to you?


"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Mark 13:32

Why he does not know this?^


In another word, that verse of Quran is humble statement!

Are all true believers? Even Jesus withdrew from some that appeared to believe on Him because He knew they were not wholehearted! So divisions etc does not nullify the Word!

No no my friend. We are dealing with Christian doctrine and matter of SALVATION here. If some Christians believe Jesus is God and some believe he is not, if some Christians believe in trinity and some christian dont, if some Christians believe Jesus is son of God and some christian dont, this is clear contradiction and confusion. It means christians do not know Jesus identity but fallacies and hearsays. This is matter of salavation not to joke with. It is not a matter of moral or judgement that may be forgiven. When it comes to SALVATION, Jesus proclaimed God is One. Where did you get trinity from (3 in 1)?

Who said so?

Your Bible. Your Bible confuses you. At some point it portrays Jesus as a separste being from God. In another places, they are portray as same one. For instance, where they supposed to use lower case 'he' for Jesus, bible writer(s) use capital case 'He'. Same applies to 'Son' or 'son'. 'Me' or 'me' etc Then christian get confused. Bible writers really put in perpetual doubt.

And both are Perfect in One:
that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee,
John 17:21a

And why didnt you complete the verse?. You left this out

".......that they {disciples} also may be one in us:...."

So it is actually more than 3 gods. It is now 3+12 disciples = 15 (at the minimum) Dont let Dr. Zakir Naik , tola9ja, rilwayne001 hear about this. You would be laughed at

To know Who Jesus was read the NT? Not the views of men. Yes Jesus approved of the NT! Both the Gospels and the Epistles!

Lol....now Jesus approved NT?. But earlier you said he did not read NT, that he aleready ascended to heaven before NT was written. I hope you aren't trying to me do me wayo.

@underlined, isnt the same Bible you all read that got you confused in the first place?. I am sure if you ask 10 christian who is Jesus, you would get different answers. This video is a hint. It is only 10 mins long. Or watch from 4mins to see confusion



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF3q5FvOKqc

That's not God! Who do you think he is?

Thats a question Quran says in 17:85 that we have limited knowledge of. Now if you said that's not God, why would you say Jesus is God when he was also a mere word from Allah "Be! and he was"? Got the picture?

The presence of the counterfeit (and there are many) shows there IS an Authentic! The basis of test is the Word! The early Church is an example! Going through Acts you will find a number of times that they all acted with ONE ACCORD, this Unity still exists not necessarily within a denomination but among true believers scattered all over the World!

I am not concerned about factions. I am talking about doctrines. There are factions in Islam as well. But non of them believe Muhammad is God. But you said among believers(Christians) all over the world, it is "one accord". Whats that accord?. The only thing i can think of is you all call yourselves "Christians". That's it. Your doctrines differ. How is Jesus is God and Jesus is not God as believed by Christians (Unitarian and Trinitarian) could be same road to salvation? These are clear different doctrines led by "holy ghost"

No one claims the Divinity of Christ based on the Anointing of the Spirit! I never said so! I know very well that there were many that were anointed and strengthened by the Spirit in the OT!

I really dont care how and what bases you use. Jesus is simply not God nor son of God period. He was a prophet, messanger SENT by God to the Children of Israel. Very simple and straightforward

"Verily, those who say:, "Our Lord is Allah", and, further, stand straight and steadfast, the angels descend on them (from time to time): "Fear ye not!", "Nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss), the which ye were promised!" (41:30)


What does the highlighted mean?

This is for muslims actually. I can relate to this because i grew up experiencing this. However common translation of the verse does not want to bring about controversies. As a result of that they put in parenthesis (at the time of death). Like this:


"Verily, those who say:, "Our Lord is Allah", and, further, stand straight and steadfast, the angels descend on them(at the time of death): "Fear ye not!", "Nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss), the which ye were promised!" (41:30)

Further intuitive interpretation of the verse indicates that a true muslim who is firm on La ilaha illah Allahu i:e there is no deities worship of worship except Allah, whose deeds in the open and secret conform with shahada and is steadfast on dhikr, the angels (of lower ranks) not Gabriel or Michael etc, descend on such muslim. You dont see them of-course but feel their presence. It's up to them if they want to speak to you. and you would hear them. If at all they want you to see them, they would appear in human form. NEVER in their true form or else, you dead. This is a sign of righteousness but still does not guarantee paradise. There are some people who are righteous in conduct all their life. But when they old and near death, their behavior become gross and evil. And they die like that. What a sad ending. May Allah protect us from that. It is probably due to overconfidence.

Refer to the manner of speaking, was Mohammed the We highlighted? If no, then he is not the I in that other Sura you quoted!

Here is the verse again;

Sura (33:7)

"And (remember) when We took from the Prophets their covenant, and from you (O Muhammad SAW), and from Nuh (Noah), Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses), and 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). We took from them a strong covenant"


'We' refers Allah {God}. @ underlined, which sura?

Tafsir(commentary) of this verse says these are 5 most powerful prophets and messangers of Allah. Now if Jesus is God because John(p) said his greater than him, then you may want to consider Muhammad to God since he too has authority to choose who goes to paradise.

John said Jesus was before him meaning Jesus had been before he, John, was born! And as regards the highlighted, where does Mohammed make his choices?

The First People to Enter Paradise:

The first of mankind to enter Paradise will be our Prophet Muhammad (saw) and the first nation to enter Paradise will be his ummah. The first member of this ummah to enter will be Abu Bakr as-Siddiq (ra).


Muslim also reported from Anas that the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "I will come to the gates of paradise and ask for it to be opened. The gatekeeper will ask, "Who are you?" I will say, "Muhammad". The gatekeeper will say, "I was ordered not to open the gate for anyone else before you"". [Saheeh Muslim]

After the Word became flesh,He totally humbled Himself and assumed the reputation of a Servant so expecting Him to say I am God is not something you will find.

This is a theory that has no basis whatsoever. It is been around for too long and does not make sense. Father humbled Himself to be servant and son. And ultimately allowed himself to be nailed?. Fantastic!

Not every one that makes a claim is genuine! We test claims and doctrines by the Whole Word.

So they are not good Christians for not believing Jesus is God?

That one you are alluding to is from the refuted 'gospel of Barnabas'. In the real Gospels, Jesus commended Peter and even told him that the revelation Peter had of Him being the Christ, the Son of God was from the Father!

Because this Gospel does not support Divinity of Jesus it is refuted? smh. At underlined, which Gospels are they?. I dont know of any 'real Gospels' among the extant ones. And "son" of God, which has been thrown around for yrs does not have weight anymore because there are other Sons of God and even daughters of God. Even "unique sons of God. All of them are in the Bible. So why is Jesus being 'son' of God definitive?.

Empire.e:

I leave you with this verse again


"O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs." Sura 004:171

Scholar8200:
Were these not the same people Muslims were asked to get clarification from being accused of exceeding limits? How do we reconcile this? And if the Quran was completed between 609-632, it means the Trinity was not a 17th century addition after all but had been there all along!

And have you not exceeded the limits in your religion by declaring Jesus is God, Son of God, that the Father came down and humbled Himself and transformed Himself to servant and ultimately gave up His own soul on the cross by allowing his own creations to nail him on the cross?. What a blasphemy!

Scholar8200:
Scholar8200:

Compare this with:

ANd since the Spirit here is not Gabriel, I believe this Spirit has a relationship with God far deeper than that of Gabriel who is a malaika.A Spirit from Himself selah!

I think you are now really getting twisted and getting more confused. Quran is very straightforward. We have no doubt that Jesus(p) is a man, messenger and prophet of Allah FULL STOP. Your Bible, not only does it call him a man but also portrays his human attributes. Jesus was a word (command) "Be! and he was" that precedes from God. How is that difficult to grasp?

Jesus’ Human Body:

It is clear enough from the New Testament that Jesus has a human body. John 1:14 means at least this, and more: “The Word became flesh.” Jesus’ humanity is one of the first tests of orthodoxy (1 John 4:2; 2 John 7). Jesus was born (Luke 2:7). He grew (Luke 2:40, 52). He grew tired (John 4:6) and got thirsty (John 19:28) and hungry (Matthew 4:2). He became physically weak (Matthew 4:11; Luke 23:26). He died (Luke 23:46). And he had a real human body after his resurrection (Luke 24:39; John 20:20, 27). Does this sound like God to you?


Jesus’ Human Emotions

Throughout the Gospels, Jesus clearly displays human emotions. When Jesus heard the centurion’s words of faith, “he marveled” (Matthew 8:10). He says in Matthew 26:38 that his “soul is very sorrowful, even to death.” In John 11:33–35, Jesus is “deeply moved in his spirit and greatly troubled” and even weeps. God does not shed tears. John 12:27 says, “Now is my soul troubled,” and in John 13:21, he is “troubled in his spirit.” The author to the Hebrews writes that “Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears” (Hebrews 5:7) John Calvin memorably summed it up: “Christ has put on our feelings along with our flesh.”


Jesus’ Human Mind:

Jesus also has a human mind. Two key texts make this undeniable:

Luke 2:52: “Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.”
Mark 13:32: “Concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

The second verse, of course, is striking. For Christians who clearly affirm Jesus’ deity, Mark 13:32 seems like trouble. But what looks difficult at first glance proves to be a glorious confirmation of Jesus’ humanity and a very helpful piece in formulating our 'Christology'.

If Jesus is God and God knows everything, how can Jesus not know when his second coming will be?

And that make him (Jesus) God?.

Expatiate on this:
If the Spirit here in question proceeds from Allah, how come Jesus could say, " I will send Him unto you"? Which should be the exclusive preserve of Allah?

Oh well, maybe we should reverberate similar statements made by other prophets/messengers who made similar divine statement that we can say only God is capable of saying. For instance, prophet Muhammad promised paradise. Read below


The Prophet (PBUH) said, "Whoever guarantees me (the chastity of) what is between his legs ( i.e. his private parts), and what is between his jaws ( i.e., his tongue), I guarantee him Paradise." Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 8.799 Narrated by Sahl bin Sad

Read this as well:


“I guarantee a house in Jannah (Paradise) for one who gives up arguing, even if he is in the right; and I guarantee a house in the middle of Jannah for one who abandons lying even for the sake of fun; and I guarantee a house in the highest part of Jannah for one who has good manners” [Prophet Muhammad SAWS - reported by Imam Abu Dawud]

There are more statements like this made by prophet muhammad and even prophets that came before him. Do these statements suggest his Divinity?.

At this point I believe we can all agree that the Spirit promised by Christ was not a man.

And where is that spirit that would lead all Christians to 'all truth' as visioned by Jesus?. That holy spirit MUST have same universal message for ALL Christians. Do you all have same message?

Meaning he ranks with the other angels since they all precede man. Okay.

Of-course Angels get levels just like messengers but as muslims, that should not be benchmark for discrimination among them.

Many Angels were sent in the Bible with Divine Messages to prophets and people in general!!! Their names were not mentioned! Only two were mentioned-Gabriel and Michael, of the latter, a high title was attached which was not used for Gabriel in all Scripture!

okay

But then such an One could declare that He will send the Holy Spirit and that the Spirit will come in His Name! Interestingly, it was interchanged-sometimes He said "the Father will send" , other times He said "I will send" underscoring the Truth-I and My Father are ONE!
That is sure higher than what a man can do!

So with this clear confusion from your Book, you still think Jesus and 'Father' means same thing?. This is clear case of two distinct nature. You have to question Bible writers here. They got you people confused Thats why Christians have different views of who Jesus truly was. We Muslims have no problem with that. This brings back my previous question, did Jesus approve NT?

As per the text in blue, do you mean the Spirit is the Word? Do shed more light!

Good point. Please allow me to say few words here. I quoted a verse of Quran earlier that the word "Ruh" can not be fully understood by human. And I further said that Quran itself says it is beyond our comprehension. Here is that verse of Quran again.


"They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)" Yusuf Ali 17:85


And I said earlier that it means this words "Be! and it is". In Arabic, it means "Kun Faya Kun" It is Command that Allah utters anytime He wants something done. So when He wanted Mary, mother of Jesus to conceive without male sperm, Allah simply said to her "Be! and he(Jesus) was conceived. That Magical Words of Allah still exist today - mentioned eight times in the Quran


Now, let me give you a little experience of mine. Quran speaks of people who do much dhikr (remembrance of God) usually in group or seclusion. These people experience many things. This dhikr is about chanting Allah's Names and Attributes with iklas(sincerity). In the process, Allah in His infinite Mercy may reveal or unveil certain unseen world to you. Let me give you example, My godfather I grew up with is a man who involves with many dhikr(remembrance of Allah). He was in seclusion (like Mary of Jesus did) for seven days. It was his teacher who gave him some Names of Allah and His Attributes and how to invoke Him(God). In order to do that, you must remain inside a clean room for seven days without seeing the sky. Anyways, the first 3days, at the end of the 3rd night, a being appeared to him in his room while doors and windows are locked. He appeared from nowhere standing in front of him. "He" appeared in form of a man of-course and picked up piece of paper where Allah's Names are written, He erased or crossed out something and re-wrote another and gave him back the paper.

My godfather asked him "who are you" but he did not answer and disappeared. So he was wondering what he did to his paper. By the time he looked to see what he did, he shouted Allahu Akbar!. Guess what he did?. He corrected his mistakes. He said (for example) that his teacher supposed to write SCHOLAR8200 but he wrote SCOOLAR8100. He said he did not know the mistake was there until the man appeared and corrected it.

Now, my question to you is what do you call that "man"?........God?. Remember that 'man' came from Allah's Names and Attributes chanted by my godfather. This incident did not happen 1000yrs ago not even 100yrs ago not even 50yrs ago. It was just in the 80s and still happens now. This kind of incident is pretty much personal experience. It is about relationship btw Allah and His servant. This has absolutely nothing to do with SALVATION of the entire Muslims. But in Christianity, if you think this "holy spirit" which lives or dwells in you is what determines central or universal salvation of Christians, then there is no way you all could have universal doctrine. Universal Doctrine has to be plain and clear. So John 14 and 15 could not be talking about personal 'holy spirit' whereby individual would come up with their own version of Jesus.

No one claims the Divinity of Christ based on the Anointing of the Spirit! I never said so! I know very well that there were many that were anointed and strengthened by the Spirit in the OT!

Good to know. Allah still strengthen true believers today but it's very hard to be steadfast.

Quran speaks again of this in Sura


"Verily, those who say:, "Our Lord is Allah", and, further, stand straight and steadfast, the angels descend on them (from time to time): "Fear ye not!", "Nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss), the which ye were promised!" (41:30)

So long a Muslim is firm in Faith with certainty, Allah will strengthen him/her even in 21 century. But the person must be Muslim, righteous and sincere.

Hear John speak:
"...He that comes after me is preferred before me; for He was before me!
John 1:15b
Making it clear that Jesus is, and was before him not on the basis of age since John was born before Jesus but on a greater and infinitely higher basis!

ANd this was supposed to amke Jesus God?. Quran speaks of "special most powerful prophets and messangers" namely:

Muhammad

Jesus

Abraham

Moses

Noah

Sura (33:7)

"And (remember) when We took from the Prophets their covenant, and from you (O Muhammad SAW), and from Nuh (Noah), Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses), and 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). We took from them a strong covenant"


Tafsir(commentary) of this verse says these are 5 most powerful prophets and messangers of Allah. Now if Jesus is God because John(p) said his greater than him, then you may want to consider Muhammad to God since he too has authority to choose who goes to paradise.

And hear what John's mum had to say:

"And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Luke 1:43
She said this at a time when she was pregnant with John.

Meaning?. What we are looking for is where Jesus recorded his own words saying he is God. Not what second or third party says. Luke was not written by Jesus and you said it yourself that Jesus did not read NT.

The Word of God, not christian groups, is the final authority on matters like this. The Spirit works with the Word hence we try the spirits by the Word as commanded! Any body can claim to have the Spirit but the test is the Word! Jesus said the Spirit will reveal Truth and Himself to the disciples, that He will bring the Word to our remembrance etc Hence beyond the claims of having the Spirit, we examine the genuineness by the Word! Here many you have referred to fail!

Meaning?. Are those christian who dont believe Jesus is God dont claim they have "holy spirit" as well?. They said their doctrine is inspired by holy spirit. So how many holy spirit?. Holy spirit supposed to give one universal message to Christians. Grab my point?

If you will read the NT, you will see many prophecies that people will rise up to draw away disciples for themselves, teach heresies, deny the Lord and His Word etc Even at the beginning of the Church some false brethren tried to introduce things that had no place etc this is why every true christian stands with the Word, not denominational dogma especially when it contradicts the Word! I have seen so-called christians who will argue for their church practices and teachings even if you show them the Word is contrary to them, what then?

And by calling Jesus God,isnt that innovation introduced by some Christians?. Which of the disciples of Jesus called him God and he was not rebuked by Jesus?. The one place i know of in the Bible where Jesus is called God by 'disciple' was rebuked by Jesus himself. SO whether he is called God or son of God it is all innovation after ascension of Jesus.


I leave you with this verse again


"O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs." Sura 004:171
Were these not the same people Muslims were asked to get clarification from being accused of exceeding limits? How do we reconcile this? And if the Quran was completed between 609-632, it means the Trinity was not a 17th century addition after all but had been there all along!

Scholar8200:
Compare this with:

ANd since the Spirit here is not Gabriel, I believe this Spirit has a relationship with God far deeper than that of Gabriel who is a malaika.A Spirit from Himself selah!

And that make him (Jesus) God?.

How can that be since he was also created? Does that apply to the rest angels too?

Did Angel not preceded human being? That's what i meant.

But the definite article shows there has to be only One of that Kind. Could Gabriel's errands make him holier than the other malaikas?

And which other malaikat is more commissioned according to your Bible?. Which other malaika transmitted Divine message to prophets and messengers besides Gabriel?

So which do you accept?

Very simple, Whether it's merely holy spirit or Gabriel, does that make Jesus God?. Quran says Jesus was conceived by word og Allah(God) "Be! and He was". How does that make Jesus(p) God?

Why is that? What position is the color highlighted text in relation to Allah?

See, here it's about Allah's Names and Attributes. Anything can emerge from His Almighty Names. I know that very well. Ruh Allah i:e Spirit Of Allah is a subject that has been dealt with many times. It is merely Word coming from Allah. Jesus is a word from Allah not "Word of Allah"


[b[“Behold! The angels said: O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus. The son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those Nearest to Allah.[/b] [Al-Qur’an 3:45]

That is the human spirit as distinct from the Holy Spirit as we know Him.

Your opinion now.


SPIRIT OF ALLAH IS BREATHED IN EVERY HUMAN BEING

A spirit from Allah does not indicate that Jesus (pbuh) is God. The Qur’an mentions in several places that Allah breathed into the human beings “His Spirit” in Surah Al-Hijr, chapter 15 verse 29 in Surah Sajdah, chapter 32 verse 9

Surah Al Hijr Chapter 15 verse 29

“When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.” [Al-Qur’an 15:29]



Surah Sajdah Chapter 32 verse 9

“But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!” [Al-Qur’an 32:9]

The verse above are talking abot Adam(p) and human beings generally. Why is Adam not God since God also breath is spirit in him as He did Jesus(p)?.



JOHN THE BAPTIST (PBUH) IS ALSO CALLED “A WORD” OF ALLAH

Yahya (pbuh) i.e. John the Baptist (pbuh) is also referred to in the Qur’an as Kalimatullah i.e. a word of Allah in Surah Ali ‘Imran, Chapter 3, verses 38-39

“There did Zakariya Pray to his Lord, saying: “O my Lord! Grant unto me from Thee a progeny that is pure: for Thou art He that heareth prayer!

While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him: “Allah doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya, witnessing the truth of a Word from Allah, and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a Prophet – of the (goodly) company of the righteous.” [Al-Qur’an 3:39]

Why is John not God just because he was also word from Allah?.

Now if we take the second understanding of the Mysterious Ruh Al-Qudus that refers not to Gabriel but to the Spirit that proceed from God and that is associated with Strength, is there any doubt that this is perfectly correct:

And your point is?

But He clearly declared that He was One with the Father! Jesus did not say the message would abide forever He clearly said He - the Holy Spirit- will abide with the believers forever. Besides, the Holy Spirit was to be sent in Christ's Name and indwell believers-two things He never did up till that time! In the past the Spirit was sent only to Kings and Prophets and that not permanently. But now He would be coming to indwell all believers! See the difference?

So going by your word, for argument sake, let's assume the "Holy Spirit" sent in Jesus names dwells inside believers (even today) why then Christians doctrines are different?. Right now we have Christians who dont believe Jesus is God. Some Christians dont believe in trinity etc. Question is if the holy spirit sent in the name of Jesus is pure and dwell inside every christian, why do you not all believe the same way?. For instance, no Muslim believe Jesus or Muhammad is God. This is universal among concept Muslims. To believe otherwise is tantamount to disbelieve and blasphemy.

Pay close attention to my point again, if John 14 15 is referring to "holy spirit" which is supposedly dwell in every christian, why do churches and Christians' doctrines differ greatly in terms of salvation?. Some Christians believe Jesus is God; and to reject that concept is detrimental and jeopardizes their salvation. Some Christians believe Jesus is not God simply because he did not say so. They did not see that statement in their Bible. Now, is the holy spirit deceiving you people by giving you different doctrines?

Consider that Genesis 18 carefully and ask who was the third Man called LORD and , like you just mentioned, Who is the Spirit that proceeds from God? Surely you agreed He is not an angel.
(for the records only, not related to thread)
If we say the God is One and that He is Three In One and that it is a mystery which we believe, Muslims mock, however there are instances in your reply where those you quoted implied that there were mysteries even they could not explain!

And how is this verse of Quran difficult for you to understand?. What you believe up there contradicts Oneness of God. It means you believe in Three gods. You getting really confused



"O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs." Sura 004:171

Scholar8200:
Actually what I wanted to know was why, since Gabriel appeared to both as a man, why was he called with the generic name -angel- while for the other he was called with a special name and the definite article -The- was used meaning there was only one of his kind?

[Quran 2:87]

"And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed".

Moreover, can you give instances when Gabriel supported Jesus' Ministry?

To be honest, this verse of Quran you quoted is self explanatory. Let's keep this simple. Malaika Jibreel (Angel Gabriel) is beloved by Allah. Their relationship is beyond human comprehension. We see throughout Quran that Angel Gabriel(as) had been commissioned since beginning of time. So he was addressed appropriately where and when Allah deemed fit. Allah addresses or calls his by different titles. However, I do have to commend you for your sincere thought. Your questions are legitimate.

When readers of the Qur’an hear the words “holy spirit,” they equate this expression with the Arabic, ruh-ul qudus. There are several Qur’anic passages that use this expression, but they do not clearly identify what or who this ruh-ul qudus is. One of those passages is the following as rendered in Yusuf Ali’s world-renowned translation:

Say: the Holy Spirit (ruh-ul qudus) has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide, and glad tidings to Muslims. —Surat-un Nahl (16):102


Most Muslims believe this ruh-ul qudus to be Gabriel. Because he is an angel, they know that he is a spirit; and because he transmits the Word of Allah, he is in a special sense a very holy spirit. There are other passages, however, where the expression ruh-ul qudus is not as easily interpreted. For example, there are three Qur’anic passages that use the expression “holy spirit” in reference to the ministry of Isa Al-Masih.


"We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit (ruh-ul qudus)." —Surat-ul Baqara (2): 87



To Jesus the son of Mary, We gave clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit (ruh-ul qudus). —Surat-ul Baqara (2): 253



Then Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount my favor to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit (ruh-ul qudus).…” —Surat-ul Ma’ida (5): 110




Today, the common opinion is that the ruh-ul qudus of these verses refer again to the angel Gabriel. But according to the opinions of the early classical interpreters, such as Ibn Zayd, Ibn Abbas and Ibn Anas, and later confirmed by al-Baidawi (d.685/1282), in these passages ruh-ul qudus was understood in a variety of ways. Other interpretations included:




1. the spirit that Allah breathed into Isa; 2. the Injil that Allah sent down to Isa; and 3. the one name of Allah that superceded all others, which Isa invoked to perform miracles, such as raising the dead. In each of these instances, ruh-ul qudus was interpreted to be something more profound than an angel; it was something that was of Allah and that came down from Allah. Furthermore, in each of the above three passages, this holy spirit came to give strength to Allah’s servant. This idea is conveyed iN yet another verse of the Qur’an that speaks of believers fully devoted to Allah:


"He [Allah] has written faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself (ruh min hu)." —Surat-ul Mujadila (58): 22



Yusuf Ali, in his commentary for this verse, says the following: Here we learn that all good and righteous men are strengthened by Allah with the holy spirit. If anything, the phrase used here is stronger, “a spirit from Himself.” When anyone offers his heart in faith and purity to Allah, Allah accepts it, engraves that Faith on the seeker’s heart, and further fortifies him with the divine spirit, which we can no more define adequately than we can define in human language the nature and attributes of Allah.

Notice Yusuf Ali’s description of this spirit as “the divine spirit.”Again we see a reference to something that is of Allah, comes from Allah and comes to strengthen. We have already seen references of Isa Al-Masih being strengthened, but this is the only verse in the entire Qur’an that speaks about the common believer being strengthened by the Spirit of Allah.

I definitely concur with Yusuf Ali's theory. This subject leads us to subject of Islamic epistemology, which is grounded in sufism (the spiritual heart of Islam). The word Ruh (spirit) is very complex and can never be fully understood by human. Quran itself confirms that. In a story recorded by Al-Bukhari in his Tafsir of this Ayah that `Abdullah bin Mas`ud said, "While I was walking with the Prophet on a farm, and he was resting on a palm-leaf stalk, some Jews passed by. Some of them said to the others, `Ask him about the Ruh.' Some of them said, `What urges you to ask him about that' Others said, `Do not ask him, lest he gives you a reply which you do not like.' But they said, `Ask him.' So they asked him about the Ruh. The Prophet kept quiet and did not give them an answer, and I knew that he was receiving revelation, so I stayed where I was. When the revelation was complete, the Prophet said:


[size=20pt]وَيَسْـَلُونَكَ عَنِ الرُّوحِ قُلِ الرُّوحُ مِنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّى[/size]

(And they ask you concerning the Ruh (the spirit). Say: "The Ruh (the spirit) is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only with my Lord...'') Surah 17:85



The people of dhirk i:e muslims who invokes Allah a lot (remembrance of God), they know some few things about RUH. Ruh is definitely not only Gabriel, the word is used variably in the Quran. Ruh, according to the people of dhikr, are inside of every human being apart from the two Angels on our shoulders. Only through the remembrance of Allah we can activate it. There is a lot more to this. I'd better leave this as it is. What is inappropriate is to say Jesus is God just because Allah breaths His ruh in him. Nowhere in the Bible Jesus claim to be God. Point is even if John 14 and 15 claim Holy Spirit to be sent later, this spirit already existed long before Jesus(p). And the "spirit" mentioned would be visible and his message would abide with mankind forever.


THE ANGEL JIBREEL IN THE QURÁN AND SUNNAH

https://foreverislamic./2012/09/21/the-angel-jibreel-in-the-quran-and-sunnah/

Basic Grammar tells us the article - the - shows there is only one of that kind eg Jesus is the Messiah meaning we cannot have more than one! How do we relate this to Gabriel who is not the only angel?

There is no doubt that this is a critical spiritual truth that must be explored. To learn more about this experience, we need to consult the scriptures of the Injil, which has much to say about this important matter. First, notice the wording in the following Injil selection, which is similar to what we found in Surat-ul Mujadila (58):22:


"I pray that out of his glorious riches He (Allah) may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being…."

—Injil, Ephesians 3:16

Meaning the personality He was sending was neither Gabriel nor a man! Else, this is the implication:

Refer to surah 17:85

1. Only God has the capacity to say,"I will send so and so" not from the Earth but from Heaven" Therefore if Jesus was referring to Mohammed (which of course He wasnt) then He is the Son of God and Essentially One with Him! NO prophet at any age EVER used that sentence of promising to send someone from Heaven! Highest they did eg Moses was to appoint a successor on earth!

2. If Jesus was referring to Mohammed, then Jesus is far more than a prophet! Whosoever is sent is answerable to Him that sent him! Note that Jesus said He will send such an One in His Name, just as He came in the Father's Name! Think on these!

If that is the case, why is nature of Jesus so complicated to many Christians?. If you conclude that because of underlined he must be God, then, i can easily mention some christians right here on NL to argue with you otherwise. I will sit behind and eat popcorn while i watch.

Quran is very clear:

"O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs." Sura 004:171

Why is the verse ^ difficult for you to swallow?. Where did Jesus say he is God because he has the power to send holy spirit?. That's just your assumption

Scholar8200:
Now why is it that when Gabriel was sent to Mary he was called,"... our angel, and [color=#990000]he appeared before her as a man in all respects"

It is called possessive noun/pronoun.

But why the change in nomenclature such that he was called the Holy Spirit?

This is very simple by using simple analogy. God can use any description for His Angels where He deemed fit. He owns them. Just like some things have different names.

*****Tylenol is also called by its scientific name, Acetaminophen.

*****Docusate is also called stool softener, colace ETC

Is it that:
1. He was so called when he appeared to Mary because he was in the form of a man; and
2. He was so called when he appeared to Muhammed because he came as a spirit?

He appeared to Muhammad(p) in form of a man as well and even to some others as reported in ahadith.


A narration attributed to Umar reports:

[b]While we were one day sitting with the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah upon him, there appeared before us a man dressed in extremely white clothes and with very black hair. No traces of travel were visible on him, and none of us knew him. He sat down close by the Prophet, peace and blessings upon him, rested his knees against his knees and placed his palms on his thighs, and said, O Muhammad! Inform me about Islam." Muhammad said, "Islam is that you should testify that there is no deity save Allah and that Muhammad is His Messenger, that you should perform salah (ritual prayer), pay the zakah (alms), fast during Ramadan, and perform Hajj (pilgrimage) to the House (the Ka'bah at Makkah), if you can find a way to it (or find the means for making the journey to it)." Said he (the man), "You have spoken truly." We were astonished at his thus questioning him and telling him that he was right, but he went on to say, "Inform me about Iman (faith)." He (the Messenger of Allah) answered, "It is that you believe in Allah and His angels and His Books and His Messengers and in the Last Day, and in fate (qadar), both in its good and in its evil aspects." He said, "You have spoken truly." Then he (the man) said, "Inform me about Ihsan." He (the Messenger of Allah) answered, " It is that you should serve Allah as though you could see Him, for though you cannot see Him yet He sees you." He said, "Inform me about the Hour (time of the resurrection)." He (the Messenger of Allah) said, "About that the one questioned knows no more than the questioner." So he said, "Well, inform me about the signs thereof (i.e. of its coming)." Said he, "They are that the slave-girl will give birth to her mistress, that you will see the barefooted ones, the naked, the destitute, the herdsmen of the sheep (competing with each other) in raising lofty buildings." Thereupon the man went off. I waited a while, and then he (the Messenger of Allah) said, "O 'Umar, do you know who that questioner was?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "That was Jibril. He came to teach you your religion." [Muslim][/b]


Narrated 'Aisha: "...Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says."...Sahih Bukhari 1:1:2

Now ,since Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit in John 14 & 15 and Holy Spirit is called in the Aramaic Bible (Aramaic being the language Jesus spoke)

Holy Spirit or Ghost in Syriac Aramaic is Rukha d'qudsha. Rukha is spirit ,d'qudsha is holy. {You will agree with me that this is very similar to the arabic Ruh al-Qudus)

1. Why do muslims claim the Holy Spirit is Muhammed if the Quran says it's Gabriel?

This is a common debate btw the two Faiths. First all, from Islamic point of view, every human being has two Angels on our shoulders recording our deeds. Thats their assignment. These are not Jubril(Gabriel). Christians claim "Holy Spirit" i:e Gabriel is the one with them, consider descriptions of Gabriel as described by prophet Muhammad(p) as having 600 wings. Where the heck is that in you?

Discriptions of Angel Jubril

Narrated ASSAILANT: ..."Abdullah (bin Mas'ud) informed us that Muhammad had seen Gabriel with six hundred wings."
Sahih Bukhari 6:60:380

I'd rather let rilwayne001, tola9ja deal with you on whether John 14, 15 is Muhammad (p) or not. I am not really interested in that debate at this time.

2. Why would Jesus promise to send an angel who already heralded His birth?

This is to show you Jesus(p) was not talking about sending "Holy Spirit"(Gabriel). Gabriel already existed long before humans were created. It was same Angel Gabriel who appeared to his mom, Mary(as). Why would he want to send an Angel that already heralded?.

euromilion:
That's the catch,primary residence,when Americans are running away.for some unknown reason to me,I just can't make America my primary residence,pls don't ask me why.i can however have an holiday home that can be rented out for some part of the year though.

So you are one of those Americans ruining away. I understand that. Dont take it literally what they mean by "primary residence". That's just on the book. You play the game or you will be played. Mine shows primary residence in their system but i live in NY. I am planing of making it vocational home when NY gets boring.

Bros emp.iree in the course of going through the list of 2000 homes,if you see anything nice with value for money,pls don't hesitate to inform me,I love to have something there now before the prices are over the roof again.

Thanks.

I hear you sir.

Scholar8200:
Then why the change when it got to Gabriel?

Listen, let me do a little breakdown. When it comes to specific tasks, Quran either mentions specific name of the Angel or prophet. It also uses general term like messenger for Angel Gabriel. It depends on the wordings. For instance,

"....then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. — Quran, sura 19 (Maryam), ayat 17

If we want further research, we look into tafsir(explanation) to see which Angel God is talking about. And that is Gabriel talking about in this verse



Similarly, angels also came to ʾIbrāhīm (Abraham) in human form, and he was not aware that they were angels until they told him so. Lūṭ (Lot) also had angels come to him to warn him of the impending doom of his people. All angels praise and glorify God and they never become tired of doing this.

They celebrate His praises night and day, nor do they ever flag or intermit. — Quran, sura 21 (Al-Anbiya), ayah 20


Also mentioned them by general terms in this verse.

"O ye who believe! save yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is Men and Stones, over which are (appointed) angels stern (and) severe, who flinch not (from executing) the Commands they receive from Allah, but do (precisely) what they are commanded.

— Quran, sura 66 (At-Tahrim), ayah


Here they are called messangers. The Quran also mentions that angels have qualities that may be typified by the word wings:


"Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four (pairs):...

— Quran, sura 35 (Fatir) ayah

The preceding sentence does not imply that all angels have two to four wings. Most notably, archangels (namely Gabriel and Michael) are described as having thousands of wings.


According to hadith collected by Muhammad al-Bukhari, Muhammad said that Gabriel possessed 600 wings;

Narrated Abu Ishaq-Ash-Shaibani:

I asked Zir bin Hubaish regarding the Statement of Allah: "And was at a distance Of but two bow-lengths Or (even) nearer; So did (Allah) convey The Inspiration to His slave (Gabriel) and then he (Gabriel) Conveyed (that to Muhammad). (53.9-10)[13] On that, Zir said, "Ibn Mas'ud informed us that the Prophet had seen Gabriel having 600 wings."


Does this sound like "angel" that dwells in you as Christians believe?. What I am trying to tell you is that Allah mentions Angel directly and indirectly in the Quran. For instance,

Gabriel (Jibreel) and Michael (Meekaal) are mentioned early on the Quran in sura Al-Baqarah:


"Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by Allah's will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,- Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and messengers, to Gabriel and Michael,- Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith. — Quran, sura 2 (Al-Baqara) ayat 97-98


Another angel, Maalik is defined in the Quran as a being who is the warden of Hell. However Maalik is not an evil angel, nor a fallen one, a notion Islam rejects, rather Maalik is merely doing what he is commanded to do by God.


"They will cry: "O Malik! would that thy Lord put an end to us!" He will say, "Nay, but ye shall abide!" — Quran, sura 43 (Az-Zukhruf ) ayah 77

Scholar8200:
What are Angels generally called in the Quran?

Malaikat

Scholar8200:
Well, the Law was given to Israel, notice that the Gentiles (who made no distinctions between meats) then were to be admitted to Israel's passover only if they yielded to circumcision nothing was said about meats to them. Even in Acts 15:28,29, only a minimal part was, through the Holy Spirit's leading handed to them. The goal of the NT is reconciliation to God and holiness of heart and life, not proselytizing of Gentiles to Jewish practices.

Well, from Islamic perceptive, they were not forbidden certain food until they started to disobey God.

Sura 3:93

"All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel Made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say: "Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth."

They used to be believers until after God saved them from pharaoh. Then they defiled Moses and God's command. It was then certain things are forbidden and they are cursed not only by God but also by Jesus and David (peace be upon them)



This is when they used to believe and covenant was intact.

"And We made from among them (Children of Israel), leaders, giving guidance under Our Command, when they were patient and used to believe with certainty in Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.)." - 32:24



And, indeed We gave Musa (Moses) the guidance, and We caused the Children of Israel to inherit the Scripture [i.e. the Taurat (Torah)], - 40:53


O Children of Israel! call to mind the special favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all others (for My Message). - 2:122


And after their persistence disbelieve and disobedience, they were cursed.


"Those of the Children of Israel who went astray were cursed by the tongue of David, and of Jesus, son of Mary. That was because they rebelled and used to transgress." - 5:78

Scholar8200:
Are other angels also so described or only Gabriel?

Angels have various task. Jubril(Gabriel) alaiy salaam is what I termed "human affairs". That's his task. Other Angels have their various tasks as well.

Angel Mikail(Michael), -in charge of rain, food etc

Israfil - Trumpeter

Asrail - Angel of death etc

Jubril being the popular one and brought down the Quran is usually described as Holy Spirit or ruh. And sometimes, Quran specifically mentioned his name, Jubril. He was the same Angel who appeared to Mary(mother of Jesus) pace be upon her. He was the same Angel who appeared to Muhammad(peace be upon him) and other prophets and messangers. This is different from Angels dwelling inside of us as Christians opined. That is called nafs i:e soul.

Scholar8200:
Well I guess the difference between the Quran and OT is that the latter has purely ceremonial laws that do not get us nearer to God , and moral laws which are binding in all dispensations.However, right from the time the OT was given, God clearly hinted of the future showing that beyond external forms and compliance with rites, He wanted transformed hearts and lives just as the NT provides:

29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
Deuteronomy 5:29

6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Deuteronomy 30:6

This is why when John the baptist was born, his father declared concerning the soon to be born Messiah for Whom John was a forerunner:

to perform the mercy promised to our fathers,
and to remember his holy covenant;
73 the oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 that he would grant unto us,
that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies
might serve him without fear,
75 in holiness and righteousness before him,
all the days of our life.
Luke 1:72-75

This carries more weight than the outward ceremonies of abstinence from meats while the real defilants are in the heart!

Everything you said up there really has nothing to do with covenant at all. And @underlined, that's laughable, I am not denying having good heart but your Bible clearly said pork meat is unclean and you should not eat it. How is that correlate with covenant?. How is someone's heart be sound if he eat forbidden and unclean meats. We already talked about that in the link given earlier. Covenant is about:

*******Worshiping God i:e correct religion - Islam

*******Righteous conduct

These are the covenant made with Abraham and his progeny. I providede the verse of the Quran earlier and here it is again.


And (remember) when the Lord of Ibrahim (Abraham) [i.e., Allah] tried him with (certain) Commands, which he fulfilled. He (Allah) said (to him), "Verily, I am going to make you a leader (Prophet) of mankind." [Ibrahim (Abraham)] said, "And of my offspring (to make leaders)." (Allah) said, "My Covenant (Prophethood, etc.) includes not Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers)."


I hope you ponder over the verse carefully. After Abraham(p) was tried (tested), he passed. And God said he would make him a leader. Read Abraham's statement. He asked Allah if He would make leaders from his offspring?. Allah replied that His (God) covenant is ONLY restricted to believers i:e those who obey and submit. This covenant is reiterated again in sura Israil (chpater 17 of the Quran). Children of Israel rejected God's commands to worship Him alone and to not eat certain food and obey God. But they always defiled God. The same thing you you here. You defiled God after Bible verse clearly said not to eat pork.

At your own pace, go and study sura 17 of the Quran where covenant was made with children of Israel. They violated God's Commands by worshiping golden calf, consuming riba (usury), killing prophets, eating forbidden meats. Because of these, they violated covenants and therefore they are not entitled to the Holy Land. That's the covenant. Only those who keep the covenants(muslims) are entailed the Deed of the only Land. This subject is a little complex.

euromilion:
@egunmogaji,
I think emp.iree is telling the truth,a friend bought one in 2010 for $3000,I couldn't believe it then,I was full of regret because he told me about it then,but I was just like you are now,although then Detroit was bankrupt,so they needed people to wake it up to live,however the rule then,was that you must live in the house then.

I love to try my hand on one of those,if the opportunity arise again.

Is still same rule. They want property buyers to make it as primary residence. It's not too late. Someone just forwarded a list of about 2000 properties to me. I don't have their time yet. U just have to watch out for heavy tax lien. That's a killer. Sometimes you will see nice and decent properties for $1000 or less but if you research back taxes, f that. ...you will pick raise.

Scholar8200:
When a command in the OT was moral, the judgement for disobedience was either death, being cut off, and was described as an abomination to God! Now was this said about pork?
Pray were Pigs in Eden? How come God made morally unclean animals? Were Pigs is Noah's ark? Why didnt God seize that opportunity to wipe out the unclean animal? Summary? They were ceremonially tagged not as though they were intrinsically unclean.
Besides, Jesus clearly and openly declared that meats do not defile! Rather it is the sins that come out of a sinful heart! Mark 7:18-23
Pls let's not discuss this any further till you have read that reference.

Seems you dont get it. When your Bible said in OT pork is FORBIDDEN, this is enough to abstain from it. You do not know better than creator. He has reason for saying not to eat pork. Quran does not give earthly punishment for it either. It simply warns us....which means there is danger in it. It is up to us to reason and research but we must obey His command first.


In these verses of Quran, they are enough instructions and warning to not eat pork. Pretty simple.


“He has forbidden you only dead animals, and blood, and the swine, and that which is slaughtered as a sacrifice for other than God.” (Quran 2:173)



"Prohibited to you are dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah , and [those animals] killed by strangling or by a violent blow or by a head-long fall or by the goring of horns, and those from which a wild animal has eaten, except what you [are able to] slaughter [before its death], and those which are sacrificed on stone altars, and [prohibited is] that you seek decision through divining arrows. That is grave disobedience". (Al-Mā'idah 5:3)




Say, "I do not find within that which was revealed to me [anything] forbidden to one who would eat it unless it be a dead animal or blood spilled out or the flesh of swine - for indeed, it is impure - or it be [that slaughtered in] disobedience, dedicated to other than Allah" (Al-'An`ām 6:145).



"He has only forbidden to you dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah". (An-Naĥl 16:115)




There is no earthly punishment mentioned in the Quran either. We only obey God by abstaining. God Himself determines punishment in the Hereafter. He may also choose to forgive.


“When God and His Messenger have decreed a matter, they (the believers) should not have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys God and His Messenger; he has indeed strayed into a plain error.” (Quran 33:36)

Scholar8200:
okay Muslims believe Angel Gabriel=Holy Spirit?

Yup

vzkpswaqnkhgytd:
You been smoking ganja or you drunk ? You make no sense.

You notice that too?. He doesnt

vzkpswaqnkhgytd:
Pigs are walking garage disposal units what man with faculty of reasoning would even consider ingesting the flesh of the swine.

Abeg, tell them.

Scholar8200:
by this question i see that you did not read my replies!

I did actually. You said u are mobile.

here is the problem! These quotes do not give any judgement or retribution! Why? They are purely ceremonial not moral! These ceremonial laws are not carried into the NT. But the moral laws with higher demands are found in the NT! Why? because grace is available to enable us do them!

I didnt say there is any. Rather it is a pure command and warning. Quran does not give judgement either. It says to abstain from it. The statement is very clear. I dont know why you people chose to ignore. The implication of eating pork is manifest in the world now. "Retribution" can be proven and has been proven scientifically. When you get the chance, watch the pastor again. It's moral too. Anytime God used command tune in Holy Books, like "Do not", common sense tells you there is repercussion either in this world or hereafter. Pretty simple. You cant ignore the fact that your Bible says pork is unclean and you are FORBIDDEN from eating it. Thats my point.

Glad you asked!
The Seed of Abraham, the One through Whom the New covenant was to be sealed (He Himself said so) was to be He through Whom all the nations of the World (not only Abraham's biological descendants) would be blessed!
Psalm 22 was a prophecy of David on the death of Christ and it ends by showing that the Gentiles will be brought into this covenant in keeping with God's promise to Abraham
Psalm 22:27
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord and all kindreds of the world shall worship before thee same Psalm 72:11,
Psalm 98:3
Isaiah speaking of the renewal sealed it up thus:
...It is a light thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob(Israel)...I will also give you for a light to the Gentiles, that you may be my salvation to the ends of the Earth
Note the repetition of the ends of the earth, all the world etc in keeping to God's promise to Abraham.
there are many prophecies on the New Covenant and the benefits therein and the fact that the Gentiles are to be included!
In summary, the New Covenant is the Gospel!Jesus alluded to that in Matthew 26:28, Luke 24:44-47.


That is why when He came and some did not receive Him, as many as received Him were given the adoption!


The OT was sealed only when Israel indicated there commitment thereto Exodus 24:7,8 (note the role of the blood)! The NT is enforced only in those Who receive Him ie believe on His Name (not as a mere prophet)
Hence we have Christians who are jews and hristians who are gentiles. Any who truly believes is brought in and we become one in Christ!
So it did does not drop on Isreal by force, commitment of faith must be expressed!

Jeremiah was not the only one who prophesied such! Ezekiel did, Isaiah did etc In fact, Malachi called Jesus Lord and the Messenger of the Covenant:
Malachi 3:1
... And the Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come...even the messenger of the Covenant...

Hence any claims should agree with all the prophecies!

I see. Jesus said My kingdom is not of this world. Hence we Christians cannot form a parallel govt with laws to punish societal offenders! That is why we have the govt in place.


Well, there is a separation of state from faith. Besides, no true believer will go to steal! If he does, either he has fallen or was never in: The detailed communal laws in the OT was so because a nation was just being born and God wanted it to be Theocratic! Now gentiles who believe are not called to try to make not their communities Theocratic, but their own lives and thus they have a positive influence.

You Christians really misunderstood covenant issue. I cleared it up here
https://www.nairaland.com/2922804/truthman2012/1#42769839

promisechuks:
See urself!

They are deceiving u!

So, it is because of pork meat or unclean things that people eat that makes them to be terrorists, rapists and hardened criminals?

I want to understand you more.

I am going to ignore u soon. scholar8200 makes more sense than u

promisechuks:
Man please don't be deceived!

Dont be deceived by your own bible?. E so k u got caught

What enters a man's mouth can NEVER defile the person, making him a sinner.

Is it because people eat unclean things that can make them lie, fornicate, be a paedophile and commit many atrocities?

Listen to yourself...do u make sense Is there any correlation? smh

Scholar8200:
Okay so we can infer that the Quran uses the term Pure spirit instead of the word angel for angels?

It looks like you are about to get it twisted. I can sense that. Before you rip me off, let me quickly post arabic word used in the verse bcus oni bara e n bole bo


16:102

قُلۡ نَزَّلَهٗ [size=20pt]رُوۡحُ[/size] الۡقُدُسِ مِنۡ رَّبِّكَ بِالۡحَـقِّ لِيُثَبِّتَ الَّذِيۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡا وَهُدًى وَّبُشۡرٰى لِلۡمُسۡلِمِيۡنَ

@bolded is "Ruh" which means 'pure spirit' is referred to Angel Gabriel in most cases throughout Quran



You can check other translations of the same verse. Ruh refers to Angel Gabriel.


Asad: Say: "Holy inspiration has brought it down from thy Sustainer by stages, setting forth the truth, so that it might give firmness unto those who have attained to faith, and provide guidance and a glad tiding unto all who have surrendered themselves to God."



Malik: Say, "The Holy Spirit (Gabriel) has brought it down piecemeal intact from your Rabb to strengthen the faith of the believers, and to give guidance and good news to the Muslims."



Pickthall: Say: The holy Spirit hath revealed it from thy Lord with truth, that it may confirm (the faith of) those who believe, and as guidance and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allah).



Yusuf Ali: Say the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth in order to strengthen those who believe and as a guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

‏

[quote author=Scholar8200 post=42956594][/quote]So you clear about pig meat or pork now or still believe it is edible?. What do you think of ur NT now?

Scholar8200:
Okay so we can infer that the Quran refers to angels as Pure spirits?

Muslims have no problem with that.

EgunMogaji:
I'll donate $20 to your favorite charity when these two things occur.

1) post escrow paperwork showing the sale price and the title deed

Alright......I know i have stuff they gave me from treasurer office. When i have the chance i iwll post it but i will erase my name. I know u so much doubt.

I went to study the course in NJ with Tax Lien company....thats where i found out. They said it is not common and not many know about it. There are two of them. You can choose whichever u want. Tax lien or Tax Deed. I opted for Tax Deed. Thats easy for me to understand. Tax lien is complicated

2) post video of you or proof of your tenant or sale to another entity.

Once again congrats in lieu of the evidences.

Na, the house is still vacant. No tenant. I have to fix it. I dont have its time yet. As for video of me, oh well, i hope i remember when i go there again. I will shoot my video. But i took picture of my friend on blue jacket in April 2014. That was the last time we went there. If you would dig a little further, you would see more pictures of him around the house. I took 4 of them i think. I want the winter to slow down before i head there again. I will mention "Egunmogaji" to confirm

Scholar8200:
Who is that referring to?

Jubril (Angel Gabriel) alaiy salam. I cant help u with linguistic analysis of "brought in your earth" or "recite or read". It is clear enough for the wise

Scholar8200:
1. Concerning pork, kindly quote here the OT passage that forbids it and the repercussion for those who eat.

Did u even care to watch the video?. Do you read ur Bible at all?. What is the bible verse below says to you?


Deuteronomy 14:8

"The pig is also unclean; although it has a divided hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DLA_BRO4p4

Another video for u ^

Leviticus 11:7-8

"And the pig, though it has a divided hoof, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you."

2. Jeremiah 31:31-33 distinctly prophesies a New Covenant that involves transformation inside out. Thus the Old was to give way for the New.

This is talking about "children of Israel. You are not Israelite. You are christian. What does this has to do with you?. Besides, it says covenant is written in their heart?. Do Jews have the covenant in their heart?. Listen, Quran speaks of something similar. Jeremiah you quoted says Israelites broke the covenant and the Lord was going to make new one with them. What is the covenant and where is it now?. It's not even talking about Christianity.

3. Before you condemn a sinner, examine your heart! For example before we amputate the hand of the thief, are we not guilty of covetousness in the heart and the NT ranks us as the same? We dont continue in either after we receive Grace thru Jesus though.

So we should let the thief off the hook bcus we are also sinners?. Thief Quran is even talking about is not petty. It is talking about (qintar) big stuff like ur politicians who steal big. A hungry man who steals should be given job. His/her affairs should be reviewed before punishment is handed down. But in Christianity, you scrap it completely from your NT. This is why your politicians and pastors dont want shariah to to be implemented.

EgunMogaji:
Okiedokie then.

I did a little background on the bid company, not very favorable.

http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/bid4assetscom-c208016.html

Good luck Sir.

You will always see complaints about anything and everything. Even if you google "complaints about Burger King". I am 100% sure something would come up.

I think u are in doubt.I am the freaking man paying the freaking taxes on it. God go fire them if they wanna do sh*t. My original name is already on the title/deed. I registered it myself in 2013. Like we said earlier, DD is the key. As you could see from the auction site, many were skeptical...thats why u dont see many bids. Sounds too good to be true. I didnt give a fig leaf and decided to just bid and won . It was after that I sent the guy in the video to verify it. I didnt even do much due DD.

EgunMogaji:
I don't doubt the pic you posted but I'm from Missouri the show me state.

Show me official escrow paperwork please. That will remove any and all ambiguity.

Thanks.

PS: I know that you'll provide the info requested so I congratulate you ahead of time for a savvy purchase.

lol....

Yea, you dont need all that. Seller provides Quick Claim Deed and that you take to treasurer office to register in your name within 45days. You own the house.......FOREVER. I remeber they sent me escrow paperwork one-time and that was it. See, Detroit is trying to get rid of those houses. They are sick and tired of vacant and abandoned houses. Their citizens are not smart enough to take advantage of that. Folks from other states do. I do not have access to info u requested at this point cus i am not home. I only boarded it up for now till i get few $$ to fix and start using it.

At least u own it for now maybe....just maybe the law may change in the future. Thats not visible now. They just want taxes paid. The hungry about that. NO MORTGAGE

EgunMogaji:
I don't believe this ever sold for $900 plus $3,500 taxes based on my just cursory research.

If push comes to shove I can always call an agent there but don't want to waste anyone's time since I'm not a buyer.

Lol....you dont believe ?. Well, i bought it actually in 2013. No worries, i got info for you to proof it.

Man, you dey research ooo. you dug up the house info fast fast.. Thats my friend in blue jacket. We went to check it in April 2014. Yes, i bought it for the price in the pix

EgunMogaji:
So the $900 title was a misnomer.

I still continue to be skeptical at the $4,400 price.

Looking at that hood in the video, even that ramshackle should still command in the $50ks

But like you said DD is the key but that's not a $900 purchase.

It's 900 bru. You see the guy also was surprised seeing it. It was bought on bidassest. Sales are final.

To be honest, it was actually bought for $300. $600 is fees and Quit claim deed preparation. Houses at the auction like this are quit claim deed. You own the house forever. No mortgage. Just pay tax to avoid red flag