₦airaland Forum

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paste yours here.

here.

there are NO monsters/demons in the game.

adahna:
bros i simply need som1 2 break it down, if u can't, buzz off please

well taking dyslexia and short attention span in consideration as it applies to you, i believe baby talk will get you out of your muddled predicament. if you can't get a five year old to help you, let me try.

using baby talk, let me break it down to yer retarded "brain":

goo goo gaga gaga wa wa "ETHAN HUNT" wagawaga go gee gee SPY wee weee gaga mummy yada yada "NOC List" wagey wagey pee pee.

ok, do you get it now, creep? or do i use sign language?  stand in front of a mirror, make a fist, slowly unfurl your middle finger.

if you get a sign like "fukk you" then yeah, thats the plot.

haha very funny.

anyway, There is not really a website, its a chat world in 3D where you get to roam around, meet people, buy and own stuff etc. its like Second Life, except this one is much open. you go to www.there.com, download the client, install on your 'puter and jack in.

ps: you need a good graphics card and bandwidth.

some serious movie buffs i met online in There (gave up on Second Life). if you are ever online in the There 3D world seek out the Sci Fi group, its our little coven of sci fi addicts where i always hang out.

ciao all.

look, everything we need to know, or at least to fuel our speculations, lies in something simple and clever: The Title.

I, Robot.

what does it mean? it refers to Sonny, but look closely, it connotes INDIVIDUALITY.

and as General Mandible in Ants will have us know, individualism is a very dangerous thing, especially in a society governemd by mass mentality and facelessness such as a machine society.

one memorable thing is that Sonny behaved less a robot, more a human. he thanked Spooner for calling him "someone" and not "something", this also is disturbing for a robot. the "id" is a human frailty, its one of the 3 parts of the psychic apparatus: id, ego, super-ego, functions of the mind responsible for uncoordinated instinctual trends, realism and moralizing respectively.

"I", refers to cognitive assessment of the self, an awareness of one's psychic and physical being. anything predisposed to being aware of itself in the singular form possess the 'id' of Sigmund Freud.

and one who has id has conscience, judgment, creative ability, reasoning, emotion. (Sonny did flare up when Spooner pushed him on Lanning's death during the interrogation, therefore the robot is capable of anger.)

what does all this mean? that Sonny is perfectly capable of weighing perceptions on his own scales of judgment and thus is perfectly capable of starting a revolution to liberate te "enslaved" machines who are bound to the sort of logic Sonny is free of and obviously detests.

freewill is never what we think it is, ask Raziel (those of you who have played Soul Reaver and Blood Omen). this was another "messiah" who thought he was free from the shackles of predestination and fate. how did he end up? an unwitting pawn in a circle of fate greater than Kain, Raziel, Moebius, Ariel and the Hylden god himself. maybe Sonny is playing a role cast for him by unforseeen forces (as Agent Smith did), even though Vescucci doesnt feel comfortable with Cosmic and/or supernatural causalities.

my mentioning Agent Smit prompts me to mention also the Duality of Choice: if a program was designed to make choices based on expected events, what happens when that program has to make a choice because of UNEXPECTED events for which it was not programmed to anticipate? in this scenario the program has but one choice: choose randomly.

random bits of code will come into play.


here is another question:

at the very last scene of What Lies Beneath when the camera dollies out from Michelle Pfeiffer's character, look closely and on the ground you will see the smiling ghostly face of harrison ford.

does it mean his spirit is back to exact revenge?

(will be offline for a while)

fade to black.

@Vescucci



@gamine



@ice zik



"revolution" here is meant in the context of an "uprising", a rebellion if you will.

@mad max

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=69799.msg3021253#msg3021253 date=1225461512]True,VIKI's wasn't a revolution. The little psychobot was acting for the Greater Good and when she was destroyed the robots went back to silicon meadows and apple pies.VIKI demonstrates that rebellion may find its way out of the 3 Laws,something Lanning had foreseen and which he witnesses first hand. SONNY was created to transcend the limitations of the Laws,is furnished with something dangerously close to a soul and free will. But it wasn't an accident:He was[i] designed[/i] by Lanning to be precisely what he was, programmed with a very human instinct for self-preservation, otherwise anyone could order it to stand still and then blow its head off. Perhaps 'random bits of code,errors,etc' gave rise to VIKI? Surely someone who can foresee a VIKI and create a SONNY in response to it can foresee the long-term consequences of a SONNY? He does foresee it, that's why he goes ahead to create a robot that can overcome rogue robots in the system now and forevermore. But Lanning has the foresight to create only one. Perhaps because one is all that is necessary. I don't see anything insidious about SONNY.[/quote]all messianic tendencies have their roots sown in the quest for the greater good. just as Agent Smith in the Matrix was programmed to destroy humans, the ONLY threats to the machine world, and in the end the Agent became something greater and someting worse buoyed by a false sense of a purpose greater than his predestined role, so also Sonny can become rogue. and just as The Architect in the Matrix couldnt see further down the road to the fate of Agent smith and what he became, perhaps Lanning too had a late awakening to the possibilities of what Sonny could become.


[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=69799.msg3021253#msg3021253 date=1225461512]VIKI did teleguide the NS-5s in her rebellion. That was how she managed her 'revolution'. Two questions: When the NS-5s were being rounded up,ostensibly to be destroyed, and SONNY ambles to the rise and is spotted,how did they discern the Messiah cometh? How did they know to seek refuge from destruction from him? How do they KNOW?[/quote]Simple: "ghost in the machine". remember i said to understand the end, we have to go to te beginning, to Dr Lanning at the opening scene: "there have always been ghosts in the machine, random segments  of code that when grouped together can create UNEXPECTED protocols. Unanticipated, these free radicals engender questions of freewill, creativity, and even the nature of what we might call the soul. why is it that when some robots are left in darkness they will seek out the light? why is it that when robots are stored together in an empty space, they'll group together rather than stand alone? how do we explain this behavior? random segments of code?  or is it something more?"


[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=69799.msg3021253#msg3021253 date=1225461512]Is it inconceivable that SONNY might fulfil his messianic duties without a revolution?[/quote]history has shown us that acts of liberation and messianic destinies do require a revolution. the upheaval of a society requires often cataclysmic changes and we have seen this in VIKI's little uprising, in Agent Smiths rebellion, in Kratos' wrath(God of War). it occurs even in nature, does it not? Norms cannot be shaken, beliefs cannot be reversed, and the pecking order cannot be up-ended without coersion, oppression, blood. why? because the adherents of what needed to change will often resist.

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=69799.msg3021253#msg3021253 date=1225461512]Remember those NS-5s are still guided by the 3 Laws and since SONNY cannot teleguide them like VIKI did, how can he co-opt them into his revolution?
And even if he did somehow manage to get all those robots, who do not enjoy the free will he does, to agree to a revolution,why would he want to? Why would he want to 'take over' the human race? Nothing indicates he has any such ambition.[/quote]the Nester Class 5 robots are without freewill, but Lanning made it quite clear that the existence of those random segments of code places our understanding of freewill in a different light. when Sonny stood at the hill, how did the NS5s react? the same way they do wen clustered in darkened enclosures: spontaneously. they all stood to stare at the figure on the hill with no prompting, no command to do so. we are meant to believe the robots are, in Spooners' words, "all light and clockwork", but this singular action in unison puts that to doubt.

as for Sonny's ambition, its clear enough in his "dreams'. we know the figure on the hilltop was not Spooner, it was Sonny. remember, Sonny said to Spooner that the man on the hill was Spooner himself coming to save the robots from "slavery". and since we now know that it wasnt spooner on the USR Storage wasteland, its easy to believe Sonny harboured thoughts of someone liberating the robots from "slavery to logic". also, remember in the scene in the USR stocking bay where the NS-5s were assembled and Sonny hid amongst them? well, Sonny did attack Spooner but did the NS-5s react to save him from Sonny, even though Spooner was in danger?

no. And this fact contravenes the First Law.

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=69799.msg3021253#msg3021253 date=1225461512]Finally,perhaps SONNY isn't the savior of the robot race,but of both races. He is comprised of the qualities that make robots robots and humans human. Perhaps he was created to protect himself,robots and Humans from the VIKIs that must inevitably be thrown up by errors in the system.[/quote]VIKI was more than an error; it was a sum total of the logic of the 3 laws. in VIKI's case the rebellion ad noting to do wit Ghosts in the Macine and everything to do with the fundamental flaws of the 3 laws. when Lanning talked of the ghosts and the random segmenst of code tat create bizarre and unexpected outcomes, he meant neither Sonny nor VIKI; he created Sonny to be what he was, and VIKI was just following flawed logic.

the ghosts refer to the collective behavior of robots in general in certain circumtances when expected protocols are breached in favor of unforeseen behaviors and results.

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=69799.msg3021253#msg3021253 date=1225461512]When those robots spot him I see they see hope,but I still don't get how they recognised who and what he was so immediately,and run to him for refuge.[/quote]Ah, now we reach the crux. this is precisely the point in the movie that got me thinking. perhaps the behavior at the end, wen they all paused to look up at Sonny as if a savior had come, could be explained as robotic "instinct", the same sort of instinct Lanning referred to at the beginning when e mentioned how robots clump together in empty spaces (as if seeking for pack comfort) and seek the light. they KNOW because the protocols governing their logic goes beyond what they were programmed to do, what we expected them to do.

random segments of code.

we have already seen how a computer program can go its way and behave unexpectedly, malevolently: Agent Smith.

Yup. War of the Worlds did cause a mass scale panic.

aww, Vesc IS a sweetie.

the tunnel effects may be rubbish but the robot effects and animation are top-notch. as for AI, well i always consider it more as a 3 hour commentary on what it means to be human rather than an ineteresting movie but sadly the long play time allows boredom to creep in. but still, credits to spielberg for finishing Kubrick's vision.

theres no one like Asimov, true, but HG Wells comes close except for the fact that, like our resident infection Vescucci, he is a bit too verbose.

A few weeks ago i watched I, Robot again and the other day it was playing on the plane (though i half-slept through that one and it took turbulence to wake me up).

it remains in many ways one of my favorite movies not only because i grew up with the Isaac Asimov strips or because I'm deep into SciFi, but partly because ive always thought there was something sinister subtly hidden in the theme. Much the same way i exhausted myself pecking at the meaning of I am Legend (and tons of others) i set my mind at work to unravel what it was that bothered me about I, Robot.

and it hit me after a rewatch: We missed the point.

1. Alfred lanning made the 3 Laws of Robotics which are:

     (a) A robot may not harm a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being come to harm.

     (b) A robot must obey orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

     (c) A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

these 3 simple laws formed the basis of the robot society and their interaction with humans. thse laws made sense, even Dr Lanning said there were "perfect", although he means this paradoxically.

but there is something fundamentally wrong with them, and it has nothing to do with Lanning's assertion that they would lead to a revolution. You see, Lanning's foretelling of the revolution recognized only one flaw; the 3 laws would culminate into precisely the kind of dangerous action VIKI took towards the end of the film:

Lanning's "revolution:

but was it really a revolution? remember that the NS-5s had no collective conscience and were teleguided by VIKI from USR headquarters via the daily upgrade link. this is not a revolution; it is VIKI taking matters into its hands and using the robots as unwilling and unwitting zombies towards a goal.

and what is that goal? why the preservation of the first law: "A robot may not harm a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being come to harm."

human beings are prone to inflicting pain and death unto each other, and to VIKI doing nothing means contravening the first law, so by taking over society and quaranteeing humans VIKI is acting precisely in accordance with the first law: it is protecting society from itself.

therefore the "revolution" is not a revolution. here, Dr. Lanning erred.

but did he?

what if Detective Spooner missed the point, as we all did? what if Dr. Lanning meant a different revolution? remember Lanning built Sonny to trancend the 3 Laws, meaning Sonny could kill humans and carry on as he pleases.  remember also Lanning said "someday robots will have dreams" and Sonny told Spooner he had a recurring dream, which the detective took as a clue.

what if Lanning didnt give sonny the dream but knew Sonny dreams anyway? afterall, Sonny was "unique".

one may well ask, why would dr lanning build Sonny to kill? well, perhaps Lanning only foresaw the "threat" of VIKI, and when he realized Sonny's "dreams" and what it meant, it was too late: he was killed.

now this dream. when Sonny drew a picture of the dream it depicted a lone figure standing on a hilly rise looking at multitudes of NS-5 robots who all stared at him. this image invokes visions of a savior. however when Spooner said the lone figure was Sonny, the robot asked the detective why he believed so.

towards the end, Spooner does go to that hilly rise, but the image at the hilltop was not that of a savior; it was a man hostile to robots looking for answers to a puzzle he couldnt unravel, and tellingly when he asked Lanning's hologram "whose revolution", the old man wryly smiles and says " now that, detective, is the right question".

so, if VIKI's uprising to preserve/uphold the first law is not a revolution, we are still left with the question, "whose revolution".

so that is the right question. but what is the right answer?

now here is where i venture to surmise it thus:

Sonny's revolution.

the robot's dream was probably a persistent vision of Sonny's role as something greater, something that could liberate his robotic kind and set them free.

a revolution against man.

whether Lanning knew, we cannot tell, but we only have Spooner's speculation, and Sonny's cryptic answer, that lanning built Sonny and asked the robot to kill him.

but arent there other, less dramatic ways of informing Spooner of the looming revolution? did it really require the Dr's death to set the investigation in motion? or did Sonny actually murder LAnning and made it seem a suicide with the robot as an unwilling accomplice?

and who stands to benefit more from VIKI's destruction? why, Sonny of course! without VIKI's dogged determination to preserve the first law, Sonny can start a revolution against man. 


Now back to this dream.

it was a foreshadowing of Sonny's impending revolution. but why would Sonny go rogue? its not only because he was unique; to understand the end we have to go to the beginning, to the opening scene and Lanning's voice-over: "there have always been ghosts in the machine, random bits of code etc".

this random bits of code, this "ghost" in the shell coupled with Sonny's unique "brain" gave rise to the dream.

when Sonny drew the picture of the dream, the event in the picture had not occured. when Spooner went to the hilltop and found the NS-5s destrying the NS-4s, the event in the picture still had not occured.

it occured only in the very ending scene, after VIKI was destryoed and normalcy was restored again, when the robots were banished to the wasteland, and Sonny stood on the hill looking down at the pathetic scene below.

and the robots, as one, all turned and stared at the lone figure on the hillside, stared at Sonny as if he was their savior.


perhaps Sonny will save them from their degradation, from that abject wasteland.

you could see it from the prophetic stance of Sonny and the revering eyes of the robots in the valley.


its a prelude to a revolution.

just got a ping from some friend who's following this that vescucci has responded (and threw in the 'immature' card for a kick) so I'm laying off powerpoint to say a few.

see, you say I'm immature, and yet Gamine sez you want to be like me. hmm, that worries me.

then you say I'm immature, then in the same breath you called me a geezer even though you and i know "geezer" connotes an old man.

nice, kid. seems my jab hurt a little, and you are pissed.

good.

my work here is done.

but did you know I'm the reason you keep coming back here? this thread has been dead for ages and the back-and-forth about who saw what, where, and how it panned out is as interesting as a bag of dead toads, so we devised a feud to liven it up.

i mean, who really wants to know what ice zik saw after creeping out of his dorm? or what old series you are watching after your parents have gone to bed and you broke curfew? i mean c'mon, this isnt Twitter. nobody cares what anyone is watching. oh, and if i don't watch a movie, its because i don't want to, and lord knows i don't come here looking for a recommendation from anyone here so lets say its the fun and jest that keeps this thread alive. for me at least.

however if you take offense at whats going on here then i apologize: someone obviously overrated your sense of humor.


yeah I'm a bit strung out, maybe i let off steam this way but seeing as we are all faceless i cannot see any harm in calling you an ass, sir. just calling a spade a spade, straight talk express saying it as it is.


but yeah I'm capping it, putting a lid on that sh1t. unfortunately i can't talk movies here anymore because I'm bored doing that so if you guys start another feud ring me up so's i can rack up the war wounds.


oi Gamine. thanks for hanging around by me, yeah? cheers and don't let ice zik or that other rubbery ass get to yer.

go to BIOS and disable anything that says SATA. or download windows Xp dark edition version 6,  it has drivers for almost any system, doesnt require activation keys and supports SATA drives.

get it here:

http://rapidshare.com/files/82596790/Windows_XP_Dark_Edition_v6-_2008__www.area51warez.info.part1.rar

http://rapidshare.com/files/82602508/Windows_XP_Dark_Edition_v6-_2008__www.area51warez.info.part2.rar

http://rapidshare.com/files/82618813/Windows_XP_Dark_Edition_v6-_2008__www.area51warez.info.part3.rar

http://rapidshare.com/files/82623916/Windows_XP_Dark_Edition_v6-_2008__www.area51warez.info.part4.rar

http://rapidshare.com/files/82638037/Windows_XP_Dark_Edition_v6-_2008__www.area51warez.info.part5.rar

http://rapidshare.com/files/82644416/Windows_XP_Dark_Edition_v6-_2008__www.area51warez.info.part6.rar

http://rapidshare.com/files/82680696/Windows_XP_Dark_Edition_v6-_2008__www.area51warez.info.part7.rar

as you can see its in 7 parts for easier download. after downloading all put everything in one folder and use winrar to unrar the files. it will automatically compact to just 1 file. the password for the files is www.area51warez.info

enable file extensions in your system (if its off) by going to Control Panel>Folder options>View>, uncheck HIDE EXTENSIONS FOR KNOWN FILE TYPES.

now go back to the file you unrar'd and right click, select RENAME, and add .uif at the end of the file name.

now download Magic ISO here:

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4458320/Magic_ISO_Maker_5.4___Serial


and install.

next place an empty CD in your CD drive, run Magic ISO, click FILE, select BURN CD FROM ISO, navigate to the uif file you downloaded and burn in your cd drive.

reboot your system with the CD in the Drive and install Windows XP Dark Edition SATA Version.

PS: you don't even have to reinstall drivers as the cd will do it all for you automatically.

goodluck and cheers.

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=186602.msg2980187#msg2980187 date=1224744980]If people did not riot when government gave $700billion of their money as bailout to private banks chaired by thieves, there is nothing else you could do to get them to riot - including stealing their votes. [/quote]its either stave the freefall or let the banks crumble, taking along deposits and debts with them. then companies will not have a lending line and for fear of going bust, will downsize their workforces in the thousands further burdening Welfare and Soc Sec and making desparate folks refinance their houses for a 3rd mortgage in order to survive leading to further glut in the housing market and subsequently dragging the few remaning subprime brokers into a downward spiral ala Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac along with the cash of lending houses such as Lehman brothers thereby killing the lenders in one fell swoop and dragging ancillary banks thus requiring another round of $700 billion bailout in tax payer money.

it could lead to a vicious loop, not bailing out the banks.

you really have only 2 options:

1. boot from the Mac OS X CD and select RESET PASSWORD.

2. reinstall OS X by booting from the CD and following the prompts.

ps: kindly let us know the OS X version you use (i.e 10.2, 10.3, 10.4, 10.5)

high definition is about five times clearer than SD and is soon to become the standard in visual entertainment. anybody who has a Plasma/LCD/OLED/RPTV display capable of at least 720p (1280 pixels horizontal X 720 pixels vertical scanlines, P stands for PROGRESSIVE scan, usually the vertical lines are taken to denote the kind of resolution capabilityy) is High-Def ready in the barest minimum

however it doesnt end there; there is also 1080i (1920 X 1080, I means INTERLACED, more on Progressive and Interlaced later) and 1080p resolutions with 1080p being the highend resolution on any 16:9 widescreen. but to benefit from these capabilities one needs a medium that outputs the signal, so hooking up a HDTV to your standard DVD or DVB box/satellite decoder will not give you HD quality picture (though you will benefit from full contrast and deep colors, and there are certain DVD Upscalers that raise the Standard REsolution to 720p).

picture it this way: NTA and AIT broadcast in 480i (ie 640 X 480 interlaced also known as VGA) on 4:3 aspect ratio. this means they broadcast in Standard Definition, so your HighdEfinition TV will receive this signal as SD and output it onscreen as SD.

this means that to benefit from HD you need a HD medium such as a Bluray player, HD-DVD, HD-DVB/STB and of course DVD Upscalers. but here too is another caveat: if you have a keen eye you wont get the full HD experience using just composite or RCA connectors; you need at least a DVI cable, or better a HDMI cable and best of all a DisplayPort digital connector to get the full nine yards of high def. (if you've ever seen a HD movie or played a ps3 or xbox360 on full HD you'll know what i mean)

there are lots of flatpanel screens sold that arent really HD, but standard definition widescreen displays and some that are high def but don't support HDMI and/or displayport connectors and yet others that don't offer TrueHD (ie 1080p).

now back to your question: anyone that has a display that supports HD is HD-ready, and there are lots of people having such displays (though it must be said most are unaware of the benefits; simply hooking the TV to a standard DVD or satellite Set top box is okay for them). if DAARSAT offers HD STBs then indeed we are ready for HD, and i commend them for going with HD because thats where the trend is going and because of their pioneering work more naijans are being drawn towards the HD movement.



now back to Progressive Scan and Interlaced.

Interlace was a technology used in raster displays (eg CRT monitors and your standard def TVs) to improve picture quality by scanning every second line of pixels diagonally from the top left to the bottom right corner of the display. before the first line fades from vision the second is scanned and so on, giving the impression of constant motion. this works best in CRTs, as i mentioned earlier (the flickering you see in a monitor within a monitor or tv within a tv), but terribly in LCD displays and Digital Light Processing (DLP) panels because they don't use raster to paint pictures onscreen (and thus no white noise).  however the flickering effects of interlaced can be minimized with a technique called Interpolating.

therefore, because most LCD/DLP screens come either 720p or 1080p, 1080i now really means a sort of HD broadcast rather than display capability.

Progressive Scan means drawing all the display lines sequentially rather than the odd-first even-next approach of Interlaced scanning. because the vertical lines of resolution are most important, Progressive gives a better picture quality with no flickers and aliasing and artifacts. however this uses a greater bandwidth than interlaced broadcast and hence is expensive.


so there you have it; 1080p (1920 by 1080 p) is true HD (most computer monitors these days are 1024 X 780, better known as XGA), HDMI and DisplayPort give better picture output, DARRSAT has done a great job, some naijans are HD Ready.

hope this helps.

cheers and laters.

aw, babe. you know i cant resist them emerald eyes.


wallahi for you, im letting him off the hook for a while but not without some fair warning; Vesc, stop being a d1ck and an ass because you stand the danger of fcking yourself from behind.


jeez, im knackered, i think ive been sold into slavery or something, 16 hours without sleep peering at tiny figures in Excel and Access and tons of colored piecharts that dont make much sense.

deadline friday. if you guys dont hear from me then i probably jumped out the window or made off with something blonde and dumb, its that hectic.

in between work i snuck a look at Mirrors again and wasnt frightened this time. actually its all a bit silly but the premise is pretty harrowing, not like that useless Quarantine.

well off i go again, will be sometime before im here.

laters.

Gamine:
I see


Tex-ass eh, me likey!!

oooh! don't get me wrong, he isnt an ass always, only in moments of weakness in your glaring presence when he calls me a techy nerdy to make himself look good before your devilishly sweet green eyes. Tex is awwight, nice guy on good days.

i like the fella, he's real. not like some cretins bearing renaissance names (Vescucci? whats that, a florence suburb? a venetian painting?

anyhoo, Tex isnt that big an ass from, say, Vesc. vesc is a huge, round, flubby, oily ass, the sort that sweats when piping shite. you know the sort of ass i mean; liquidy and wobbly like jell-O with puckmarks and stretchmarks and flowing out of jeans and stuff.

now picture that ass all oily and glistening in the sun and you  have a clear picture of Vesc.

yes, vesc. once you were a d1ck, but being the sick tranny you are you went for a sex change and (oh dumb) became an ass. now you drop shite all over the place and on everyone. and you wonder why i come here less often? smelly armpits i can take, hell i can stand halitosis, but a giant frigging oily ass?

nah! I'm not that cowboy.

low budgfet movies do not always mean independent movies and indies don't always deviate from the established norms of hollywood. the kind of indies that offer a somewhat fresh take are ones made by the likes of tarantino, rob zombie, rich linklater, john cassavetes etc who imaginatively pioneer cinema magic beyond the pg-13 riddled hollywood script convention.

lots of A-list actors began their career from indies; robert de niro, julia roberts, brad pitt etc.

thse days, sadly, a lot of folks whose scripts don't get the hollywood greenlight join the indie train and unleash therir rubbish hoping the 'indie' label will get the necessary attention ( e.g identity crisis).

one thing genuine indies are known for is stark realism, grittiness, photography and good acting. who can forget Drug Store Cowboy? or Apocalypse Now (Martin Sheen's best outing so far, Marlon Brando was also memorable), memento, jackie brown, pulp fiction, and the works of alfred hitchcock?

but hollywood too has had some good movies along the creative lines (fight club by century fox), michale clayton (warner).

mainstream directors like david fincher and the late sydney pollack made their mark on hollywood movies, and tim burton is doing a good job getting things done according to his vision.

I'm all for the indies, the concept allows for the creative process to take root and manifest in something fresh and enjoyable outside the mind-numbing realm of hollywood bossitude and bad stuff. but then again lets balance this: Indiewood most times also allows for quirky, voyeuristic stuff.

where is woody allen? we miss yer!