₦airaland Forum

elampiro: How many times did SAF play 2 man midfield in big games?

Particularly in 2007/8, it was always 3 man midfield with Carrick/Hargreaves and Scholes the preferred. But Anderson had his fair share while Park and Fletcher played some roles too. Hargreaves and Scholes both started 24 league matches in 2007/8. Hargreaves played in the base far more than he played in the apex.

How many big games did Man Utd played in 2007/2008? How many did SAF featured three midfielders that included Hargreaves? You were only able to list three games for that season and the fact is that Man Utd played 52 games in all competition in that season. How come it is only three big games you were able to show the line ups?

That is not convincing enough to tell me that it was only in the big games that Hargreaves was feature as if he was the most important of the midfielders.

As a matter of fact SAF played 4-4-2 more than any other formation and Carrick/Scholes combo was the most played combo in that season. Fergie only adopted three midfielders in difficult games and not necessarily featuring Hargreaves in all.

Three key areas Fellaini was already outperforming Manchester United's midfielders

Why new Manchester United signing Marouane Fellaini will be an improvement at Manchester United.

You may think that after crying out for a midfielder, when Manchester United splash out £20 million plus on a proven Premier League performer that fans would finally be happy.

And some are. But not all are convinced that Fellaini is of the calibre for United to get back to dominating in Europe, and the true test of that will only be seen on the pitch in the months and years to come.

Belgian midfielder Fellaini has featured in all three of Everton's games so far, prior to his move, making two appearances from a defensive midfield position and one in an attacking role.

We took a look at his early statistics, and examined how they measured up against his new United teammates. Admittedly this is a small and limited sample size of three matches, with United facing more difficult fixtures in Swansea, Chelsea and Liverpool, than Everton's matches against Norwich, West Brom and Cardiff.

Nonetheless they offer a glimpse of Fellaini's qualities, and the level at which he was performing in those matches, and why any negativity surrounding his arrival should be dispelled and he should be given a chance.

Shots per game

Fellaini may not have opened his Premier League account as yet, but it is not for the want of trying. In his opening matches Fellaini has had five efforts on goal, an average of 1.7 shots per game. His new Manchester United midfielders are far more goalshy, Tom Cleverley who has started every game has had just two shots on goal (0.7 per game), while Michael Carrick is yet to have a single effort. Even United's wingers, Nani, Ashley Young and Antonio Valencia have mustered just two between them. Ryan Giggs has had two efforts on goal in his time on the pitch, two starts and one substitute appearance.

Passing accuracy

Perhaps the most surprising statistic is that Fellaini's passing accuracy in his opening three games exceeds any of United's starters. This is a testament to Roberto Martinez' tactics at Everton, which have seen the team placed third in passing accuracy overall, with United in seventh. Fellaini himself has completed 89.1 per cent of his passes. This compares favourably with United's ever-presents, Michael Carrick (85.7 per cent) and Tom Cleverley (87.5 per cent). Fellaini has also made three key passes leading to goalscoring opportunities, while Carrick and Cleverley have made two each.

Aerial duels won

This one is not so surprising. Marouane Fellaini won more aerial duels in his matches than any United midfielder. Fellaini has won six per game, 18 in total, losing just two of the 20 he has contested. That's more headers won than Nemanja Vidic (9) and Rio Ferdinand ( put together. Michael Carrick has won just three, one per game against Fellaini' six, while Tom Cleverley has won one aerial duel out of four contested, at an average of 0.3 per game. Clearly Fellaini will add a physical presence United cannot provide in midfield, and this can also surely lead into a goal threat, either directly or in the way of knock-downs to striker Robin van Persie.

http://hereisthecity.com/2013/09/09/three-key-areas-fellaini-was-already-outperforming-manchester-un/

SailorXY: @bimfo, u no well @ all
buh who were these guys in spain 'representing' man utd on the herrera deal? were they just a consortium of concerned fans who wanted to purchase the player for the club and had €31m but were still €5m short of the asking price? was it a plot to force everton's hands on fellaini? can the identity of those guys even be discovered and made known? i think the fans should demand some explanation for such embarrasing episode

The 'three men' claimed to be representing Man Utd were said to be lawyers from the Bilbao law firm, Laffer Abagados.

"This firm specialises in sports law, and were reportedly used by Javi Martinez and Bayern Munich to successfully negotiate the process of finalising his move to Germany 12 months ago in similar circumstances".

Read more here: http://espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/1543060/manchester-united-blamed-failure-land-ander-herrera-athletic-bilbao?cc=3888

darefestus: Well, Our Woodie is really desperate now.
werent we supposed to get him for <£24M about 3 weeks ago?

That man doesn't know his job. He was busy chasing after unrealistic targets. He should be sacked for failing in his first major task. The buy-out clause was there for him to trigger but he didn't.

Coentrao loan deal from RM to Utd. Not sure.

Found this on the internet.

Gives a bit of insight into the reason why we have failed so far in this transfer window. I don't believe this guy is experienced enough to know how players transfer works. He should have understudied David Gill for at least a year before being handed this job.

This is what we get when you give this kind of job straight away to a person whose former job was being in charge of the commercial and media operations of the club. His former job has proved that he has experience in how to bring in money into the club and not how to spend it.

He needs to settle down and learn fast because this is one of the biggest club in the world.

Moyes is not being objective in picking his team. How will he say that he didn't pick Kagawa because he had to make choice between Nani and Kagawa for the bench. Is he telling us that Giggs at 40 is better than a 24yr old Kagawa to have merited a place in the starting eleven?

What a careless statement? If i were Kagawa, based on this statement i will ask for transfer before this transfer window closes tomorrow. This is an indictment to his talent.

If Moyes knows he's not going to be playing this guy regularly, he better sell him instead of wasting this guy's talent. This is the to see to how he can bed into the team. He was bought because of creativity.

nitrogen: ^^^ Bros, e don do na!

I am done with it.

I just hope we win this game. I don't know how Giggs will cope with this kind of game at 40. Moyes sopposed to know that we need to keep pace with the top teams.

elampiro: Fabville is a trouble maker. From his alleged 4-4-2 he jumped to 4-5-1 then 4-2-3-1. Then he is now suggesting United had a different formation in Europe after he had been found out.

Trouble maker over what? For stating the obvious that some forum members have attested to? You are so funny.

Go back and read my post. I said:
1. Traditional formation that Man United played mostly under SAF was 4-4-2 specifically in 2006/07 season with two midfielders (Scholes & Carrick)

2. That at times SAF also played 4-5-1 which transits to 4-2-3-1 when counter-attacking and mostly it is in Europe.

3. But not 4-3-3 as you have said with your article that SAF played 4-3-3 between 2006 and 2009.

4. You turned 4-2-2 against Chelsea to 4-2-3-1 and 4-5-1/4-2-3-1 against Roma to 4-3-3.

Are these the reasons why i have turned into a trouble maker?

elampiro: It is not a mater of blogger or no blogger. I raised the issue and points before using analysts to back up. The truth is that formation is discussed more by sports writers/bookmakers/analysts. How mny times have you seen coaches and players emphasizing on formation. This is because theory is different from practical. For instance, someone already making assumption that United played 4-4-2 because Ronaldo played more on the left flank on the night in Moscow. Have we not seen SAF and several coaches used one winger in a match while the other wing is left for midfielders to use occasionally?

In 2007/2008, United used three man midfield in most of its games. I think I have already explained this. If you go back to the line ups, you will see that most line ups had three midfield players from Scholes, Carrick, Hagreaves, Anderson, Fletcher. A study of the line up patterns will reveal to you that United didn't open up both wings in majority of the matches.
.....................................

Look at these few line ups for instance. You will see three midfield players.

Against Lyon in Old Trafford
1. Man Utd: Van der Sar, Brown, Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Fletcher, Carrick, Anderson (Tevez 70), Ronaldo (Hargreaves 90), Rooney, Nani.
Subs Not Used: Kuszczak, Saha, Park, Scholes, O'Shea.

At Lyon
2. Man Utd: Van der Sar, Brown, Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Ronaldo, Scholes (Tevez 65), Hargreaves (Carrick 78), Anderson, Giggs (Nani 65), Rooney.
Subs Not Used: Kuszczak, Saha, O'Shea, Fletcher.



Against Roma in Rome
3. Man Utd: Van der Sar, Brown, Ferdinand, Vidic (O'Shea 34), Evra, Carrick, Scholes, Anderson (Hargreaves 55), Ronaldo, Park, Rooney (Tevez 84).
Subs Not Used: Kuszczak, Giggs, Pique, Silvestre.

Against Roma in Old Trafford.
4. Man Utd: Van der Sar, Brown, Pique, Ferdinand, Silvestre, Hargreaves, Park, Carrick (O'Shea 74), Anderson (Neville 81), Giggs (Rooney 74), Tevez.
Subs Not Used: Kuszczak, Ronaldo, Scholes, Welbeck.



Barca in Cam Nou
5. Man Utd: Van der Sar, Hargreaves, Ferdinand, Brown, Evra, Ronaldo, Carrick, Scholes, Park, Rooney (Nani 76), Tevez (Giggs 85).
Subs Not Used: Kuszczak, Anderson, Pique, O'Shea, Silvestre.

Barca in Old Trafford.

6. Man Utd: Van der Sar, Hargreaves, Ferdinand, Brown, Evra (Silvestre 90), Park, Scholes (Fletcher 76), Carrick, Nani (Giggs 76), Ronaldo, Tevez.
Subs Not Used: Kuszczak, Anderson, O'Shea, Welbeck.



..................................

We can go on and on.

Scholes had 30 appearance in all competitions and 4 more subs. 7 UCL games.

Anderson 25 games in all competition and 13 more as sub.

Michael Carrick had 39 matches, then 10 more as sub.

Carrick 49 (10 sub) (13 ucl) in all

Owen Hargreaves had 24 League games , 9 Champions league and 34 in all. Hargreaves played all the knock out matches and on group match. I couldn't get his stat for FA cup and league cup.


When you put the above together arithmetically, you will notice that our midfielders were very active, meaning three of them were used most of the time. I have not even considered Fletcher and Park.

................................

Finally, I must confess, we need another Hargreaves.

Are these 4-3-3? All these are 4-5-1/4-2-3-1 and they are all in Europe. How can you sat these are 4-3-3? I am done with this.

A-40:
I can't remember for sure I think its Fabville I know say F start him name

Yes, i was the one and i can see that @SailorXY have answered that earlier.

I said that based on the Martinez's statistics before he moved to Bayern. If and when Fellaini moves to a bigger team we'll now compare. Big teams do improve players.

elampiro: I saw those diagrams long before you did. There is an original source, then a lot of analyst have used them in their commentaries.

elampiro: Exactly the way you want to see it.

There are different analysis for the two chart. The creator of the chart sees the first one as a pure 4-3-3. Go and read from the source. The second was analysed as 4-2-1-3. Hagreaves was meant to stop Ashley Cole and Lampard in that one off formation of 2007/2008 UCL final.

Hargreaves was meant to tackle the threat of Ashley Cole and not Lampard. SAF had the option of choosing JS Park but he opted for Hargreaves because of his defensive qualities ahead of Park.

Man Utd plays either 4-4-2 or 4-5-1/4-2-3-1 especially in Europe or when they play against a difficult opponent and that is why SAF always look to buy natural wingers.

elampiro: I thought you said articles didn't matter?

United vs Roma was a pure 4-3-3.
United vs Chelsea was a pure 4-2-1-3. But some analyst wrote it was still 4-3-3. That particular formation in the final against Chelsea has the most divisive opinion.

I posted links to this argument, perhaps I have to start posting links again to remind us and to bring up new points.

Yes, exactly my point and exactly what i expected from you. What i was trying to tell you with the article i posted was that i can bring a whole lot of articles to back my points just like you have done.

My point is that i don't need anybody's article to see or know the formation Man Utd is playing at any given time because i already know how these formations work. Every team has a traditional formation and a lot of people read them differently.

How can you say that Man Utd played 4-2-3-1 in the final against Chelsea? What was Hargreaves doing on the right wing wing then?

The Man Utd v Roma formation you are seeing in that diagram is a fluid 4-5-1 which transit to 4-2-3-1 when when attacking. In a 4-3-3 system the three attackers will have to be separated from the midfielders and not nearer to them. That is why the arrows were drawn to show that they will be running down the byline creating width for the team. That is the more reason why we have natural wingers who are fast paced to always attack the opposition full backs. Man Utd under SAF have always play with width

The difference between 4-3-3 and 4-5-1 is that 4-3-3 is more of possession football while 4-5-1/4-2-3-1 is more of counter-attacking football which Man Utd are more known for under SAF.

I know you so well just as @♛AndrERush♛ have ritghtly said. You will not accept even if i post 100 pictures of the formations here. You so much believe in articles that someone posted than what you can see for yourself. If you are seeing white and a bloggers says it is black, you tend to believe the bloger. There is no need to go on with an endless argument.

elampiro: It is you that didn't understand the formation. Rooney- Ronaldo-Tevez were our three strikers given free roles. They interchanged their positions inside matches as they wished. Then Scholes, Hargreaves and Carrick played the midfield with Anderson sometimes used. Fletcher also had some games.

Look at the chart even your co-arguer posted. The 2nd was a match we had in Rone against Roma. Ronaldo was in the centre of two co strikers, Rooney on the left and JS Park on the right. Most times Tevez took the role of JS Park.

So, are you saying the Roma game was 4-3-3? This is purely a fluid 4-5-1 which changes to 4-2-3-1 when going forward. The arrows simply imply that Rooney and Park have to run down the byline before crossing the ball in for Ronaldo.

Some forum members have said it several times this arguments came up that we played 4-4-2 in the final against Chelsea but you have always failed to agree.

Read more about SAF's formations http://worldsoccer.about.com/od/skillsandtactics/a/The-Manchester-United-Formation.htm

elampiro: That was the way you saw it or the way you wanted to see it.

Fletcher played 24 matches in 2006/7 season. Then JS Park had 14 games.

The Tactics Board- Is Fergie’s solution the 4-2-1-3?

In only 3 games this season, it seems more likely that Sir Alex Ferguson’s dominant formation this year will be an off-shoot of the 4-3-3. The last time that Sir Alex Ferguson used a 4-3-3 as his dominant formation was between 2006 and 2009, a period when the Red Devils won 3 straight Premier League titles, a League cup and the Champion’s League. Sir Alex Ferguson has always been associated with the 4-4-2, and achieved considerable success with this formation but that didn’t stop his tactics from evolving.

Some managers achieve success with a formation, and will only use this formation for the rest of their career. A good example of this is Giovanni Trapattoni, currently coaching the Republic of Ireland national team, but Fergie has always evolved with the time, even if it is slightly slow at times. After seeing Jose Mourinho’s Chelsea team win the League twice (2004-2005, 2005-2006), United started to toy with the 4-3-3 that Chelsea used, and he made several changes until this formation led to one of United’s most successful runs.
- See more at: http://redrants.com/the-tactics-board-is-fergies-solution-the-4-2-1-3/#sthash.lis6HcdR.dpuf

This one you are posting articles to back up your claims doesn't change anything about the formation and the personnel (players) lined up to execute such formation.

In 2006/2007 and 2007/2008, SAF mostly played the 4-4-2 system and in few games adopted the 4-5-1 system because Man United played with width and playing fully with width can only be done with natural wingers. We don't play inverted wingers who will execute the 4-3-3 that you are talking about. If you didn't watch those matches, you need to go back and see the line ups for the games that we played then. Scholes and Carrick were played in the midfield in most of the matches played in 2006/2007. Most of the time you see Fletcher play is either he came in as substitute or Carrick or Scholes is missing from the line up. So also at times when you see Hargreaves in the same team with Carrick and Scholes, then it is either he is playing at the right back or he is being used as a winger.

You don't need an article to convince me that what you are saying is right because i can also right an article on that to back up my assertions. I don't need to read any article in order to know the formation a team is playing, team list will definitely do that. If it is article, i will give you a couple to support my pointy as well.

If you are in doubt, you can mention at least ten matches with the team list and tell me the position each player played to convince me that it 4-3-3.

elampiro: We had Saha that year. SAF also had other players that he called upon temporaray, like Larsson.

Most writers have said United used 4-3-3 from 2006 to 2009. Then we know there could be some disagreement because these things can be seen differently by different analysts. But the general consensus was that United used 4-3-3 that period with just little adjustments in a few matches.

This is not correct. Did you ever watch Man United matches in 2006/2007? I f you did, you will not say that the "General Consensus" was that United used 4-3-3.

In 2006/2007, man united used 4-4-2 with Carrick and Scholes anchoring our midfield.

What does this imply?

elampiro: You will see the difference when he starts to play, even among Januzaz, Zaha, Lingaard. He has been doing it for ages producing results among different set of players whether old or young, experienced or novice. The difference is he is a coordinator, a great team player, an attacking creator, a builder and a multi positional player. He can be forceful, he can run with the ball, he can slow the game, he can easily change direction of a game and he can dictate the pace of a game. He can head, he can shoot and he can be cunning and intelligent. He is strong on the ball, a genius and his type are rare. He is versatile and he brings maturity.

You talk as if Rooney is all in all at Man Utd. As if he is to Man Utd what Messi is to Barcelona. Let's check on what history has told us about Rooney at Man Utd in respect of the bold.

History has it that Rooney have spent nine years at Man Utd and out of these nine years he has won the English Premier League title with the club five times with the assistance of QUALITY PLAYERS.
Rooney have never single-handedly won the title for Man Utd. Let's analyze Rooney's contribution season by season since he came to Man Utd.
YEARS MAN UTD TOP SCORER(S) TEAM POSITION
2004/2005 Wayne Rooney (11 gls) Third

2005/2006 Ruud Van Nistelroy (21 gls) Second
Wayne Rooney (16 gls)

2006/2007 Cristiano Ronaldo (17 gls) Winner
Wanyne Rooney (14 gls)

2007/2008 Cristiano Ronaldo (31 gls) Winner
Carlos Tevez (14 gls)

2008/2009 Cristiano Ronaldo (18 gls) Winner
Wayne Rooney (12 gls)

2009/2010 Wayne Rooney (26 gls) Second

2010/2011 Dimitar Berbatov (20 gls) Winner
Javier Hernandez (13 gls)
Wayne Rooney (11 gls)

2011/2012 Wayne Rooney (27 gls) Second

2012/2013 Robin Van Persie (26 gls) Winner
Wayne Rooney (12 gls)

What does all these show to us?
It has been able to show us that your Rooney who you said could make the difference with players such as Januzaz, Zaha, Lingaard could not make the difference better players when he was given the opportunity in 2009/2010 and 2011/2012 to lead Man utd to glory.

After Ronaldo and Tevez's exit in 2009, Rooney was given the opportunity to lead the line and he was Man Utd's highest goal scorer with 26 goals without winning the EPL.

It took SAF to promote Berbatov to lead the line and also bring in Hernandez for Man Utd to win the EPL back in 2010/2011.

He was also given the opportunity again in 2011/2012 to lead the same men RVP lead to glory in 2012/2013. His 27 goals could not win Man Utd the EPL and the most painful thing was losing the league by goals difference until RVP came in 2012/2013 to help win it back.

We can all see now that @elampiro's Rooney all along these years has been a Spare tyre just as @Coogar have always said. There is nothing so special about him as you have said. Rooney cannot single-handedly win the EPL for us. He is not in the category of Messi or CR7. We know he's a good contributor but he's not the type of player who can determine the faith of a team.

@Demaejy and the House, please i want your candid advice. Just came across this thread and found it informative.

I have never gone to post office to post a letter before until yesterday when i have to send some documents to a company abroad. I posted the letter ordinarily without being registered and with what i have read on this thread it means it will take donkey years for the document to get to Cyprus. Please i want to know:

1. If i can go to the post office to retrieve and resend the documents registered. If yes, how do i go about it?

2. How much do they charge for the regular registered mail (not the EMS because i can see that is expensive) as the document is a 10-page document?

afrodoc: Looooool u have moved to a new stat now (one that appears to favour ur side of d debate).lmao. Well I wasn't arguing wit u on who is better.just wanted to point out d error in d conclusion u made from d 1st stat. D stat on minutes per clean sheet says cech is better. D stat on clean sheets as percentage of matches says de gea is better.

You are the one getting it wrong. There is nothing wrong in what he has computed up there. The longer the minutes per clean sheet the better.

If a goalkeeper jeeps a clean sheet for 120 mins and another keeps for 130 mins. Which is better? It is obviuos that it is the one that keeps it for 130 mins.

A-40:
There is no shame in falling to one of the strongest teams in Europe! This same Athletico put European Champions Chelsea to the sword they beat Real Madrid and ended Mourinho's winning streak in Finals with the deadliest striker in the game!

Martinez has been able to help his team to 4 finals in only 6 seasons losing to Atletico Madrid and Barcelona (Pep era) mind you Bilbao only feature players from the Basque region so that should tell you something

The question is at almost 26 what has Fellaini done in Europe??

I don't understand why you are bringing this in. When did Chelsea become a standard for you to measure a team's strength?
What i am saying is that Martinez could not prevent Ath. Madrid from walloping them three nil the way he was key to Bayern winning the UCL. The main job in Bayern's defensive midfield is done by Scheini.

He has the worst disciplinary record in Europe and in La Liga in that season.
He was far away from Fellaini despite him not playing in Europe.
You have not been able to prove me wrong on these.
Thank God that you said you know all these before forking out 40 mil euros to buy him.

A-40:
You mean not good enough

Whether is good enough or not is not what brought about this.
I have posted statistics that showed that Fellaini rank higher than Martinez.
The fact is that he's better than the Martinez you bought for 40 mil euros.

A-40:
Which means you have lost sight of what the original argument was about which is Martinez is a better DM than Fellaini. Fellaini started as a DM but his d[b]efensive incompetence and tactical indiscipline[/b] is what made them turn him a box to box midfielder
in the first place

This shows that you no nothing about Fellaini. Who turned him into a box-to-box midfielder and where did they turn him into this?
It is on record that he has been a box-to-box player since his days at Liege and because of this he won the Ebony Shoe in 2008. A player with the bolded up will never be a box-to-box midfielder.

If you don't know the meaning of box-to-box midfielder, here is it:
The term "box-to-box" is often used to refer to the most dynamic all-round/complete midfielders, who provide both defensive and attacking prowess.[4] The most versatile of players, they typically possess exceptional stamina and are usually skilled at tackling, passing, shooting and also good at keeping possession. Examples of a box-to-box midfielders are: Arturo Vidal,[5] Yaya Toure,[5]Aaron Ramsey, Frank Lampard, Steven Gerrard, Paulinho, Claudio Marchisio, Selçuk İnan, Marouane Fellaini, Lothar Matthäus, Roy Keane and Daniele De Rossi.
See those that are in his category. Where is your Javi Martinez there?

A-40:
He was played at CB! Which isn't even his original position. I wonder what would happen if a clumsy ninja like Fellaini has to play CB for an entire season
If he could get booked 8 times playing as an attacking midfielder

I said it that you do not know this player. He can play both as a defensive midfielder and as a central defender.
Bilbao's coach Marcelo Bielsa used him regularly as a central defender during his time there. So, i don't know what you are talking about that he was played in the CB.
If that is not his original position why then did Pep said that he will be using him in center back so as to accommodate Thiago in his team?

A-40:
That is the job of a defensive midfielder! The season Fellaini played that position he got 13 bookings! In the Premiership alone

His job as a defensive midfielder is to rack up 17 yellow cards and three red cards in a season as a defensive midfielder. Definitely he is a dirty defensive midfielder comparable to Lassana Diara. Do you know that it was because of the same disciplinary record that Diarra couldn't make it at R. Madrid under JM?

A-40:
Martinez is a defensive ninja! While Schweini instigates offensively so there are bound to be hitches when one or the other component is missing

They are both defensive midfielder. The only is that Schweini is a deep-lying-plamaker while Martinez is a holding midfielder. Meaning that Scheini is taking so much attention away from him from his play making role. If pressure is on the other team, he will make less errors.

A-40:
A waste?? The Champions League,Bundesliga and DFB Pokal trophies are laughing at you. We went from 3 times runner ups to treble winners and signings like Martinez made it possible

You haven't shown me anything to prove this.
Maybe if he had been sent off against Arsenal and Arsenal knocked your team out then you would have said it was because of him that you couldn't win the UCL.

A-40:
Arsenal humiliated indeed! A match were Arsenal was thoroughly outplayed but managed to escape with victory thanks to the wastefulness of our forwards! So Bayern have never lost a game Schweini played? Its funny that in an entire season you can only point to one bad game.

Thoroughly outplayed indeed! Your team had 21 shots, 9 on target not entered the net and you are saying they managed to escape. This is funny! Did they pack-the-bus or did they tie your players legs.
This is a disgrace to your team for Arsenal to have only 5 shots on goal, 3 on target and two went inside. Who was more efficient? You are here talking that they manage to escape when at the dying minute of the match your players were taking the ball to the corner and throwing line in order to waste time. Find something else to say.

A-40:
When would you people stop peddling this myth that the EPL is the fastest league in the world? Have you sat down to watch the Bundesliga or La Liga? Or do you have any stats to back up your claim

Don't even go there. How many teams are in your Bundesliga? Your league plays lesser number of games compared to EPL. Despite playing lesser number of games, they still go on break to rest. EPL is stronger, faster and more competitive than your Bundesliga. Check out the statistics i post.

A-40:
Tackles are not as important as interceptions that's what I said bros

You must be kidding! This simply shows that you were never a footballer. You shouldn't have said this in a public forum like this. Tackling is one of the basic skills of a defensive midfielder and the most important. Check out from what i post.

A-40:
Playing predominantly as an attacking midfielder even at that he still manages almost 40 bookings despite playing only one season at DM

I will not respond to this because you do not know understand the role he is playing at Everton.

A-40:
Says who? I was even giving Fellaini awoof credit all this time! On closer inspection Fellaini only managed 6 goals in the 3 seasons prior to this one
Despite playing central/attacking midfield! Whereas Martinez playing as a defensive midfielder/center back has scored 25 times in 7 seasons. So despite playing a more advanced role his offensive stats are only marginally better

That is not correct. In his first season 2008/09 he scored 8 goals; 2009/10 2 goals; 2010/11 1 goal; 2011/12 3 goals; 2012/2013; 11 goals. So, where did you get your 6 goals from. Get your facts right before posting.
I don't know where you are getting your facts from. They have both have 8 years career and Martinaz have scored 26 goals from 228 app. while Fellaini have scored 34 goals from 200 apps.

A-40:
Loool where you in space when Man City and Mancity were running after Martinez like molue on a Monday morning? Barry,De Jong? Those ones na player? You mean De Jong that was even on his way out! Yaya Toure doesn't play DM so I don't get your point! After failing to land Martinez they settled for Javi Garcia and we can all see the result

www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2195358/Javi-Martinez-set-join-Bayern-Munich-Manchester-City.html

www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/transfer-window-to-slam-in-roberto-mancinis-face-as-bayern-munich-close-in-on-manchester-city-target-javi-martinez-8082515.html

metro.co.uk/2012/03/24/manchester-united-target-javi-martinez-eyed-by-liverpool-363229/

All these are rumours just like you said down there. Show me where the coach made an attempt to sign him not where some press were peddling rumours about.

A-40:
They didn't go for or could not afford him? Please be more specific! Javi Martinez is one of the reasons Pep is at Bayern today you don't even know how hard he chased after him while he was at Barcelona! A player that was already a Spanish International and had previously captained Spain's Under 21 side to victory is who Barca and Madrid would not be interested in? Me sef dey laugh u

All astute observers have pointed Javi Martinez as the missing link in Barcelona even before he joined Bayern most commentators predicted he was money well-spent despite us paying 40 million
euros for him that should tell you how good he is


www.barcablog.com/2012/07/barcelona-transfers-why-javi-martinez.html?m=1

www.barcablaugranes.com/2012/6/3/3059720/transfer-rumors-central-defenders-thiago-silva-javi-martinez-and-more

You can see how badly Barca fans and pundits are busy crying and moaning for Javi Martinez

You think Bayern Munich a team that has been in the black for 2 decades would go around splurging money if they didn't think he was value for it

That is an insult to Barca to think that they cannot afford him. How much did they buy Ibra and Neymar that they cannot afford to pay 40 mil euro for a player they badly need? The fact is that he was overpriced at that price. That was why no top spanish clubs went for him.
Come to think of it. Let's say Barca have interest in him and bought him. Is he going to displace Busquet or Masherano in the team? Are you telling me that he is better than these two in that role? You must be joking. He will rot on the bench unless they use him as a CB. Barca never had any interest in him.

Those links you posted are from individual's interest in the player and not that of the coach. Is Francesc Tomàs part of Barca coaching crew or a columnist? How can you believe these? Som Man Utd columnists have also written similar article on how Strootman will solve Man Utd's defensive midfield problem with the coach not even bidding for him.

A-40:
My people have this saying "Soup wey sweet na better money kill am" Man City went for the cheaper option Javi Garcia and he has already been universally acknowledged as a bust Barca also went for Alex Song and they experienced first hand the gem they missed out on! Go and ask anybody at Barca now if they wouldn't jump at getting Martinez if they could rewind time

This is an insult to the owners of Man City that they don't have the money buy Martinez! Do you know how much they have spent since they bought Man City? Have Bayern spent up to half of what they have spent in the same period? They simply didn't want to buy him because he was overpriced.
Barca will never jump at your karate man because he is not better than Busquet, Macherano and Song.

A-40:
These are all rumors! Fellaini is not Bayern quality and if he chose to go to Everton it only shows how limited his ambitions are and it also explains why at almost 26 he is still at a small club like Everton

I will post something to let you know that he was courted by Bayern


So why haven't yall gone for him since? Like I said when he consistently gets courted by big clubs across Europe get back to me

Yeah like Fellaini isn't liable to rough tackles[/quote]

You want the history of the player you used so much money to buy and i'll give it to you

A-40:
He played a key role in us getting there in the first place

Why didn't he played that key role in winning the Europa league cup for Bilbao instead of losing scandalously to Ath. Madrid in the final? It was from his defensive midfield position that Ath. Madrid scored three unreplied goals. They would have even scored more but because they were wasteful.

A-40:
So what is holding Fellaini back from playing with these better players at such an advanced point in his career?

That is because he is being underrated. When a big club buys him we'll revisit this.

A-40:
Fellaini plays Attacking midfield! Who's likelier to get dribbled? A defensive midfielder or an attacking midfielder facing most likely the least skilled players on the field I'd let you tell it

Fellaini is not just an attacking midfielder, he is a box-to-box midfielder. It was last last season that he operated more in the attacking midfield. In his early years at in Belgium and Everton, he was used more as a defensive midfielder and only on some occasions when their srikers had injuries that he was pushed forward as an attacking midfielder.
This shows you that he is more of an all round midfielder (box-to-box midfielder) than Javi Martinez.

A-40:
Tackles are never more important than interceptions in any country. Tackles lead to fouls which potentially leads to free kick opportunities in dangerous positions for the opponent! No wonder they don't play Fellaini at DM anymore

This ninja is so clumsy he averages almost 3 fouls a game from the attacking midfield position, Can you beat that? That means every tackle Fellaini makes is as good as a foul

Obviously Martinez is tidier which reflects in his lower foul count,higher passing percentage and higher interception rate despite dealing with more skillful players more often than not


Touche! Only defensive attribute he has on Martinez

I can see that you do not know the player you bought and i will tell you how rough he is.
In 2011/2012 when he played last for Bilbao. This was also the season he had a run in the Europa league up till the final where they were thrashed three nil.

1. He played 30(1) (2561 mins) games in all competitions. He was booked 17 times in all competitions and out of these 17, he was booked 5 times in Europe. He was also sent of 3 times in the season and one of the red cards was 2 yellow cards.
What do you now say about a player who can be hot-headed? Can you now see how rash he was.

Also in 2010/2011 season, he played 35 games (2918 mins) and was cautioned (yellow carded) 11 times.

As a matter of fact, it is Schweinsteinger that is protecting him from all these flaws but he was later exposed in your match against Arsenal.

2. I know you are a Bayern fan but because Bayern wasted 40 mill Euro to take him to your club you will want to justify that kind of huge amount of money.
In the match that Arsenal played against Bayern at Allianz Arena where Arsenal humiliated Bayern at home. Who was there? It was Javi Martinez. Who wasn't there? It was Schweini. Javi Martinez was even lucky to be on the pitch for the 90mins after doing a Taekwondo on Rosicky's chest. That is how dirty he is. If he had done that while playing for Bilbao, i can bet it that the refree would have given him a straight red.

3. For him to have had such a bad disciplinary record in La Liga that is not fast paced as EPL, i wonder how many red and yellow cards he would have been given if he was to be playing in the EPL. Is Bundesliga as fast as EPL? No and that shows the reason why Feallaini's fouls will be higher than his.

You also say tackle is not important. I dey laugh!!!

Fellaini have only been sent off only once in his playing career. What does that tell you?

A-40:
When will Fellaini make this leap?

Very soon.

A-40:
Absolutely false! Fellaini might score more goals but that's because he was pushed further up the pitch where his tactical frailties woulda been less harshly exposed! Martinez stats still flaw Fellaini's


Man City were interested! Barca have been lusting after Javi Martinez since time immemorial but couldn't afford him. Bayern bit the bullet and shelled out 40 million euros for him

The question I ask you once again is why is no one interested in Fellaini despite only costing a little over half of that

I wasn't even talking about Fellaini's offensive statistics because Javi Martinez is nowhere near Fellaini in that area.

Man City was interested in him! To displace who? Yaya Toure, Gareth Barry, or De Jong who is like for like? You are funny.

Did you ever have a thought that why didn't R. Madrid and Barca go for your highly rated Martinez? They will never go for a player with such disciplinary record.

Barca wasn't interested in him. If they were they would have gotten him. Before Barca go ond get players outside La Liga, they will first search for such player within La Liga and it is when they don't see any player who match the kind of player they are looking for that they will then look up to other leagues.
Barca saw him before they went for Alex Song. They knew the guy was overpriced coupled with his disciplinary records.

Finally, at the time Fellaini was bought by Everton in 2008 when he was 20 years old, there were interest from R. Madrid, Aston Villa and even your Bayern with a strong interest but he choose to go to Everton because of playing time. for his developement.

At that time, Man Utd made contact with his agent persuading him not to sign a new contract with Liege so to sign him but they refused and he signed a new contract with Liege before Everton went for him.

Who is this Karate guy? Please let me know.

A-40:
How many times did Bilbao get to final of major tournaments in the past? Why not tell us how many times Fellaini has dragged Everton to any major achievements in Europe


Of course because we felt he was worth it! Twelve months on Bayern is celebrating a treble you think its a coincidence?

Now tell me why no one wants to buy Fellaini? At 24million pounds shouldn't clubs all over Europe be falling over each other for his signature

Good job posting those stats! As they clearly show Martinez commits less fouls, more interceptions and against the best in Europe only got beat 0.3 times per match add that to the fact that he also shares the field with Bastian Schweinsteiger his defensive numbers become even more impressive

He was only fortunate to find himsel in a good team that won the UCL.

You took the one you wanted out of the stats. Those one you quoted improved as a result of him playing with better players where he won't be exposed so much.

Add these to the stats:
He was dribbled 0.9 times in the league while Fellaini was dribble in 0.4 times. Fellaini played more league matches than Martinez and was dribbled far lesser than Martinez.

Fellaini made more tackles than Martinez.

Fellaini also made more clearance than Martinez.

So what are you talking about? His statistics rose after he moved to Bayern.
You can see his statistics when he was in Bilbao compared to Fellaini in 2011/2012. It shows that Fellaini was better than Matinez.

How many teams was he linked to along with Bayern during the last transfer window? I believe non other than Bayern. If he was so good it wouldn't be Bayern alone.

A-40:
He was in Athletic Bilbao dragging them to the Europa League final. You are a Man U fan you guys were also their victims so you should know

How many times and was he the main player who dragged them to Europa league?

A-40:
Your graph is bogus! Where are the tackles made,interceptions,pass accuracy etc? any Tom D!c and Harry can come up with a graph it doesn't show anything! Besides that why is no decent club in Europe after Fellaini? For a fiscally responsible club like Bayern to spend 40 million euros on a defensive midfielder you suppose know say water don pass garri

Get to me when a big club is ready to buy Fellaini

Was is it not the release clause the club put on him in other to ward off big club from buying him. He was overpriced.
This is what you asked for:

elampiro: [b]


Was it yesterday Adebayo left Arsenal?

Oh I get your angle. Forward pass doesn't mean the passer is more efficient. Did you not see RVP has more of percentage backward pass? Rooney has far more percentage side passes like picking a winger as Young and Valencia, all are very important and deadly. Rooney gave Kagawa a side way pass to score a brilliant goal.

Using percentage forward pass as a basis to judge effiecient of pass made is wrong. For your information, Rooney has 10 forward pass per match as compared to RVP's 6.
My purpose of the chart was to tell that Rooney should not be judged with goals as he is more busy. Coogar has even confirmed he played in 7 different positions which can even destabilize a player if not very good. If we are to talk of efficiency in pass, Rooney provided 10 assist from 2026 minutes as compared to RVP of 3123 minutes.

Summarily, when people argue about Rooney's play last season they should know that he played 7 different positions in 22 league start. Who does that? Not even Ronaldo is thrown about like that. Messi plays only one role while Ronaldo plays three. So why kill someone who should be commended for filling the gaps?

I want to stop here.[/b]

Also know the fewer times you get involved in football touches the fewer you will make mistakes. Hense RVP's 820 passes in 3123 minutes shows how much he was just sitting upfront like an Hyena waiting for the Lion to kill to capitalise on the ready made food.

Rooney played mostly from the midfield last season, then if he is working so hard like you said he's supposed to have more forward passes than RVP. A midfielder would have more forward passes than a main striker not the other way round.
It is taking Roonet more passes to create a forward passes. Meaning that his forward passes as a midfielder is not as efficient as that of RVP who is the main striker.

If RVP is capitalising on ready made food as you have said, then he would not have more accurate forward passes than Rooney. He is always involve in the overall forward play of the team as a striker.

elampiro: 1. RVP led Arsenal a number of seasons.

2. You were quoting percentage without doing the maths. Or you should just say you didn't take time to study that table.

You asked which of them made more forward pass. Do the conversion of 26% of 820 and 21% of 1026 and lets know which is higher.

What about when Adebayor was there?

2. The more you twist this stats there more it makes me understand statistics and simple arithmetic (not mathematics). With the playing time you are adding it still doesn't add up. What you are simply saying with the playing time added is that Rooney will need more playing time to be able to have more forward passes than RVP.

This is a very simple analysis.
RVP could have 820 accurate passes from a main striker role and had 213 accurate forward passes from the 820.

Rooney had 1026 accurate passes from a midfielder role and 215 accurate forward passes out of the 1026.

Let's also see how efficient these two are in terms of their respective accurate passes.
RVP - Accurate passes + Accurate forward passes (820 + 213 = 3.85)
This means that out of every 3.85 accurate passes made by RVP, he will make one (1) accurate forward pass.

Rooney - Accurate passes + Accurate forward passes (1026 + 215 = 4.77)
This means that out of every 4.77 accurate passes made by Rooney, he will make one (1) accurate forward pass.
This simply means with the playing time you brought in by you, Rooney will need more playing time to be able to increase his accurate passes in other to match and surpass RVP's percentage accurate forward passes.

Nobody is disputing the fact that Rooney had or will have more accurate passes than RVP but the efficiency of those accurate passes in terms of accurate forward passes in lesser that RVP's.

This also implies that if these two players switch positions RVP will have more accurate passes and more accurate forward passes than Rooney.

A-40:
Are you serious bro?? Castrol Rankings? Lol what are their metrics? For what month? What does your graph even highlight for goodness sake?

Where was Matinez before Bayern but him? That is exactly what the graph showed. His rating started rising when he started playing for Bayern.

You can see that in 2011/2012 when he was still at Bilbao and Fellaini with Everton, he was far far lower to Fellaini in the ranking. That is exactly what the graph is showing to us. His rating started rising from October 2012 and still he is yet to get up to Fellaini.

A-40:
How many times do you remember seeing Iniesta look so helpless on the pitch? Who is Fellaini? No be only Fellaini na Fela Anikulapo Kuti! No one rates him outside Everton never mind England

You would struggle to name 2 DM's better than Martinez in all of Europe

Yeah, this is exactly what i am talking about.

elampiro: @Fabville, how do percentage turn out to be figures? Rooney figure were higher. Go and calculate it.

Secndly that Rooney and RVP stat you provided. How can you compare a midfield/supprt striker player with a lead striker? Go and give us their stat for 8 years and let see if Rooney didn't outperform RVP in all parameters even from the deep.

@Coogar your penalty records are wrong. Give us link.

Also percentage doesn't translate to figure. Some like you they will ask you 10% of 100,000 dollars and 15% of 30,000 dollars. You will quickly grab the 15%.

When I get home I will reply you guys properly.

So also RVP didn't play as the lead striker for Arsenal in all the past four seasons.

Fabville: Okay lets do some Maths, 1026 minus 820 = 206. Also 215 - 213 = 2.

This simply means that out of 206 excess accurate passes made by Rooney over RVP, he was able to make only 2 forward passes.

This is simple arithmetic. 26% is greater than 21%

This calculation wasn't based on percentage. It was purely based on the figures provided by your statistics.

SailorXY: Signing Fabregas will be a real statement of intent, it will also signal to other top players observing that United are not in decline.
It may trigger the likes of Bale to push towards joining United, and I think Moyes will still go for Fellaini cuz he'll want to end the era of United being bullied in the middle of the pack.
This will also license Kagawa to express himself without fear of losing the ball & inadequate cover to stop a counter attack.

You are right but i don't think Fabregas is ready to leave Barcelona or else we'll have to pay far too much for him for Barcelona to really push him away.

elampiro: Did you not do statistics in school?

Rooney 1026 accurate passes, 21% of them are forward passes. = 215 accurate forward passes.

RVP 820 accurate of which 26% are forward = 213.

Which is higher?

Percentage is not figure. You and Fabville should know.

Okay lets do some Maths, 1026 minus 820 = 206. Also 215 - 213 = 2.

This simply means that out of 206 excess accurate passes made by Rooney over RVP, he was able to make only 2 forward passes.

This is simple arithmetic. 26% is greater than 21%