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Christianity Etc › Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: 17 Facts People Should Know About Them by Gruni1234: 2:34pm On Nov 26, 2018

OneJ:
As regards Pharoah & Joseph, Gen41:39-41 is what I had in mind. Thanks for pointing it out. It's appreciated.

2). "so Christ even though was God did not consider himself equal to God", as U well know, it's a contradictory statement which the writer of Phil2:6,7 can not have written himself ,except his exact words were twisted to such an extent that it's contradictory

3) If Jesus is Almighty God and still consider himself inferior to God. John 14:28.
Thats not common sense , na mumu.

4) Phil 2:9-11, Jesus exalted position is to glory of God Yahweh, therefore, Yahweh is not under Christ's authority.
1 cor 15:24-27, sheds light on it in lucid details.
5) Thomas himself never called Jesus "our God". but "my God". Context is key.
Therefore, Christ is not Yahweh, whom Christ called the only true God John 17:3.
Shalom

Hi, so I can deduce that you've accepted my remarks on the Pharoah verse you quoted as invalid right? It seems there was no rebuttal there. Good to know, we are heading somewhere.

I believe you are all running around in circles, when you confront each other, a topic must be picked, supported or debated by those for or against it. Then we will have a head way. Now I asked you what linguistical prove do you have to reject the other versions of the Bible, some versions which you yourself used like the KJV.

Point 2. Have been made clear from the other side that Christ was both God and Man. So as Man he's subjected to God and as God he's equal in nature. That fact has been made well proven.

Point 3-4. Guess appropriate answer is Jesus was man on Earth so saying the Father is greater than Him makes sense to ME because humanly speaking my Father is greater than me because He is my head and have more authority than me.

Thomas was an apostle right? Of Christ right? So this affirms that the apostles saw Christ as God. Thomas needn't call him Almighty God, most of the Apostles infact did not call God almighty. So you affirm that Christ is God since Thomas called Him God. Good that was easy. So we again making a head way.

Now Can you answer my question:

what linguistical prove do you have to reject the other versions of the Bible, some versions which you yourself used like the KJV.

Thank you.

Christianity Etc › Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: 17 Facts People Should Know About Them by Gruni1234: 2:18pm On Nov 26, 2018

OneJ:
As regards Pharoah & Joseph, Gen41:39-41 is what I had in mind. Thanks for pointing it out. It's appreciated.

2). "so Christ even though was God did not consider himself equal to God", as U well know, it's a contradictory statement which the writer of Phil2:6,7 can not have written himself ,except his exact words were twisted to such an extent that it's contradictory

3) If Jesus is Almighty God and still consider himself inferior to God. John 14:28.
Thats not common sense , na mumu.

4) Phil 2:9-11, Jesus exalted position is to glory of God Yahweh, therefore, Yahweh is not under Christ's authority.
1 cor 15:24-27, sheds light on it in lucid details.
5) Thomas himself never called Jesus "our God". but "my God". Context is key.
Therefore, Christ is not Yahweh, whom Christ called the only true God John 17:3.
Shalom

Christianity Etc › Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: 17 Facts People Should Know About Them by Gruni1234: 2:17pm On Nov 26, 2018

snnazzy24:
I have a few point against the facts stated about Jehovah witness.

1.. You claim not to participate in wars and for that reason Hitler killed a large number of your member, but even Jehovah himself was involved in wars to help the children of Israel according to the bible so who is deceiving who?

2.. You talked about 300 Jehovah witness members in prison in South Korea and Egypt because they refused to stop preaching or to be enlisted in the military but Jesus commanded to give to Caesar what's of Caesar and God what's of God, disobeying the laws of a nation is disobeying God, besides it was written that when you go to a person or people to preach and they refuse, you should dust off your shoes and leave peacefully, Christ didn't tell you to disobey. about enlisting in the military, even God's own people in the bible were listed in the military so where did you get your doctrine from?

3.. You talked about not saluting the flag or singing the national anthem well that's the highest point of hypocrisy because when you have problems such as Health, Security, or financial etc of any sort you go to people who swore oaths and respect the flag, you acquire educational knowledge from institutions set up by the same country you don't respect their flag, if you pledge your alliance to God then you shouldn't enjoy benefits like other citizens who pledged their alliance to God and their respective country. Your Jehovah should create or form another country for you or else you will continue to be treated as Aliens in any country.

if your leaders can review these facts and most importantly the doctrine of not giving blood to a dying person, I bet your religion would be the best to practice and promote peace in our world but I guess they wouldn't because all religion is nothing but nonsense.

Interesting.

Christianity Etc › Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: 17 Facts People Should Know About Them by Gruni1234: 9:49am On Nov 26, 2018

Barristter07:
funny and extremely funny

That an account created on Nov 24 could say the above nonsense despite have given Standard biblical prove for the bold says a lot.
my posts are there, directly respond to them , if you have any point to say

You sir are very rude, I am amazed by your disrespect and if this is how Christians behave then I'm extremely disappointed. Also is there a warning that says, new members shouldn't contribute or follow a thread? If I am a new member are your posts limited to time and date?

I am not here to debate anyone, I am only here to observe, learn, and with sound mind see who has a valid point or not. Which I will continue to do. Have a blessed day.

Christianity Etc › Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: 17 Facts People Should Know About Them by Gruni1234: 12:38pm On Nov 25, 2018*

OneJ:
@ Gruni1234, it's very obvious that U are even more confused than johnw47 and zodiakzax.

(In the first place, that Bible version (NIV) that zodiakzax quoted Phil 2:6;
"Who being in the very nature God did not consider equality with God as something to be used to his advantage" is BLATANT FORGERY of God's word.
"Who being in the very nature God"
That's a DISTORTION of the holy Scriptures.
Every other Bible version reads
"WHO BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD",
This is the correct rendition.
(Greek morfeo> "form", image, shape). What is the form of God?
Answer: God has a spiritual form, spirit body)
Jesus "did not consider equality with God, (Yahweh.) something to be grasped" or "used to his advantage" na BIG LIE .
Christ himself has no reason or basis to assume or think he is equal to God.
PROOF
"Jesus said, the Father is GREATER THAN I" John 14:28 .
U heard from the horse's mouth.
Christ. is not equal with God, them no be mate.

Gruni, can Jesus be that same God (Yahweh) whom Jesus has said is "greater than I (him"?

It's even more foolish quoting Phil 2:10 , " God (Yahweh) exalted him (Christ ) to a superior position"
and "made him (Jesus) lord and Christ" Acts2:36.
Stop twisting the truth, Yahweh never called Jesus "my lord", Christ is NOT the lord of Yahweh.
Yahweh gave Christ permission to occupy a superior position.
"I have come to you in the name of my Father. John5:43.
Gruni, brocab and all liars, God's word exposes the quicksand that u stand on.
Let the Bible speak for itself.

" For He (Yahweh) has put "verything under his (Jesus) feet".
Now when it says that. "everything" has been put under him (Jesus), IT IS CLEAR THAT THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE GOD (YAHWEH) HIMSELF
,who put everything under Christ"
1 cor 15:27.

King Pharaoh gave Joseph a superior position, yet Joseph was never equal to the king. Gen 40:39,40.
Can U be equal to your boss?

Thomas never called Jesus Almighty God. Moses was a God (Exodus 7:1 KJV), but he was never the Almighty God.
There exist only one true God, the Almighty, Yahweh/ Jehovah. Exodus 6:3, Psalms 83:18. John 17:3

Greetings, first of all, let me point out that I'm but a neutral reader, looking at evidences provided by both sides to ascertain what is and what is not. Leaning towards one person or group does not mean i support or approve of them, just logically putting it that group has made more logical and valid points than the other.

That said, mind the way you talk to people giving that you don't know who you are talking to, how old, and how knowledgeable. Standing in front of a phd holder in theology you are but a child who doesn't know why A is A and why B is B, you only know that A is A or that it B is B, so don't go about saying someone is confused.

Let me now address your points:

You make the claim that zodiakzax uses a wrong translation of the Holy Bible to ascertain his fact and that Every other bible version translated it as form. Problem with this is that he did not only use the NIV but several translations which he posted in his comments, some use the word Nature and some use form and others were to the point that He being God etc. So your claim there is Invalid. Also, What linguistical proof do you have that the NIV and other translated versions that render morphe as Nature are wrong as you claim? Now you said "Jesus "did not consider equality with God, (Yahweh.) something to be grasped" or "used to his advantage" na BIG LIE .
Christ himself has no reason or basis to assume or think he is equal to God." Well another problem again, It is evident that was what the verse Phil 2:6 is saying, the writer said "Christ was in the form/nature of God but did not consider Himself equal with God"
So Christ even though was God did not equal Himself to God.

To prove your case you cited several verses to defend yourself.Jesus said my Father is greater than I as point to show that Jesus Himself says God is above Him, so Jesus cannot be God, good, but the writer in Phil 2:6 clearly shows that even though Jesus was in the form/nature of God, he did not consider Himself equal to God, taking that into account, it explains why Jesus should say My Father is greater than I because he doesn't want to make Himself equal to God. And just as you insist that we should allow scripture to talk for itself, i think you should to.

According to my research into Christianity and of course a believer that God doesnt exist, i have come accross certain claims of Christians and especially Trinitarians, they believe Jesus was both Human and God at the same time, so Jesus makes certain strong claim like "I and My Father are one" ,.John 1:1 saying He is God and many more which I'm not conversant with.

Now OneJ let us examine as you aspire to let scripture speak for it self,

It is said God has highly exalted Jesus and given him a name which is above every name, so that at the mention of that name every knee should bend of those on heaven,on earth and under the earth and every tongue should confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.

Let us break this down, God exalted Jesus and gave Him a name Above Every name, so Jesus' name is above every name, when we say your name is above every name in your country we mean your name is superior to all others, no other name is superior. So his name is superior to God's but because the Trinitarians believe one truine God, this makes perfect sense on their part.

2. Writer said at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and confess in heaven: now zodiakzax asked a very striking question, where does God reside? And obviously heaven as believed by all Christians, so if every knee should bow in heaven then it means all beings in heaven should bow including God. Zodiakzax pointed out that if the writer should say every other knee then it supposed that not all will conform to this rule but " other "cannot be seen there. So all including God must conform and yet again because the Trinitarians believe in a truine God it makes perfect sense.

To further ascertain your claim you quoted genesis 40:39,40 I must tell you I looked through the entire genesis and I didn't get this only to find out that you made a mistake and that it was Genesis 41:39-40 you were referring to so next time be patient.

Now reading for myself your example, it is striking that you did not add the later comment of Pharoah when he said "only in the throne will I be greater than you" to your point. It is therefore evident that even though Pharoah gave Joseph authority over his kingdom he limited Joseph's authority to the rulership of the people alone and not to his role as king. So using this point to support your claim is also invalid for the only reason that Pharoah who being man knew very well that he had to limit Joseph in his authority, which is clearly stated in the verse. But in the case of Phil 2:9-11, there's no wording there to suggest that Christ was limited in His authority. It also could have said only in the name of God is his name not above, something like that but rather used the word "every".

You said did Thomas call Jesus Almighty God? Well there are so many verses that shows that God is not always referred to as Almighty God when ever he's been spoken off. In many cases the writers in the new testament didn't use the title Almighty God when talking about God, just like Phil 2:6 Where it is said he was in the form/nature God (not almighty God) consider Himself not to be equal to God (again not Almighty God) also Phil 2:9, wherefore God(not Almighty God) has highly exalted him, and many more verses where onmy God is used not Almighty God. So your point and logic here is invalid.

Exodus 7:1 from most rendering It is said Moses shall be Like God to Pharoah and not God, I think someone pointed out that your very own NWT renders it as such and that if you consider your NWT as the most authentic then why don't you stick to it as they stick to their sources. Why then do you want to use KJV, obviously because it supports your claim, and these tricks are what poor debators use. Obviously you won't accept the version of the KJ because most verses in it is against your believe and your NWT, for example in John 1:1 your NWT says The word was a god, when most sources including the KJV says the Word was God. You will obviously again say the KJV is in error as you seem to do to other versions like the NIV which go contrary to your understanding. So why don't you stick to your NWT as they stick to their sources as someone pointed out, which I think you should do providing the NWT was translated so you won't be misled. Let us stop using cheap gimmicks and rather boldly face the facts.

Yes indeed according to Christianity there exist only One true God and not gods, if that was true and if you accept that which you do why do your NWT say Jesus is another god when there can only be one God. I think this was a question most ask you. Which you have failed to defend in most cases but quick to use when defending your claims.

Here I should say again that I am for no group, if anyone makes a valid claim and proves it I will upon my own research deem it valid or not valid.

Thank you.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: 17 Facts People Should Know About Them by Gruni1234: 11:35am On Nov 24, 2018

johnw47:
God's inspired word shows that the Word Jesus Christ is God:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

the jews knew Jesus was saying: I and my Father are God, as in john:
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

of course false jw's change the plain and clear meaning of what God inspired, to their deprement:
Rev_20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Marvelously done, Yes Thomas indeed called Him God and Lord. You and the others are doing a great job defending the trinity, even though i don't believe in the existence of a God, I rightly appreciate logicians.

Now does God exist? What makes you think so?

Christianity Etc › Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: 17 Facts People Should Know About Them by Gruni1234: 11:30am On Nov 24, 2018*

zodiakzax:
There you are wrong again, you are using your limited human mind to know who Yahweh is.. I pointed out to you who the speaker was from vs 1, Yahweh, into vs 16 Yahweh, so why then do you SAY ITS ISAIAH AND NOT YAHWEH, all you did was to speak your mind that it's impossible that Yahweh should call another Lord, you have failed to show that it was Isaiah and not Yahweh. The scripture speaks for itself, false JW wants to put his own meaning into it as you do to others..

And that is why its difficult for you to comprehend the trinity when you quickly reject without any explanation simple verses that shows the truine God

Now Can Yahweh call another Lord, Yes

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Where does Yahweh reside? Heaven

So if everyone in heaven must bow and confess that Jesus is Lord then The Father does the same. If it said that at the mention of Jesus every OTHER knee should bow in heaven.... and every other tongue should confess...then we know NOT ALL WILL BOW, NOT ALL WILL CONFESS, AND SO WE CAN SAY THE FATHER WONT DO IT...BUT ITS ALL WILL..SO TECHNICALLY THE FATHER CALLS THE SON LORD...

You have completely failed my friend to defend this case. Anyone who reads this knows you done nothing to defend this just your stupid bubblings....

Once again good job explaining your points,.

Took my time to read the Isaiah 48:16 and it's clear it was God who speaks not Isaiah, to say is Isaiah is completely false and out of interpretation.

Barrister using your mind doesn't mean that's what the scripture says and as zodiakzax rightly put it human mind cannot comprehend/understand God. Rather look at the scripture in reference and deduce your understanding from it to understand God.

Barrister i suggest you defend the matter at hand by pointing out reasons in terms of scripture why you say it's impossible that God should call another Lord.

I believe you quoted a bible verse to support your claim zodiakzax, can we have that verse, now if that verse says what it says then barristers point is invalid to say God doenst call another Lord when by scripture it is evident that all and not some is to bow to Jesus and call him Lord. All presupposes that even God himself shall bow and confess that Jesus is Lord in order to glorify Himself and if by scripture God cannot do that then Jesus is God.

Thank you

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Christianity Etc › Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: 17 Facts People Should Know About Them by Gruni1234: 11:20am On Nov 24, 2018*

zodiakzax:
Do you even read what I write?

Humans and dogs are different by nature, even though they are both physical beings.... you said Yahweh and angels have the same nature since they are Spirit beings... Now you rightly said Humans and dogs are different in form, why did you say that? Don't they all have physical bodies? Don't they all reside on Earth?
What differenciates them?

So likewise Yahweh and the angels, don't they all reside in Heaven? Don't they all have Spirit Bodies? What differentiates them?

So in answering, Yes both beings have PHYSICAL BODIES, both RESIDE ON EARTH, their NATURE differentiates them

2. Yes both beings have SPIRIT BODIES, both RESIDE IN HEAVEN,their NATURE differentiates them....

Seems you can't comprehend that...

Now
Phil 2:6

NIV
Who, being in very nature God, d[/b]id not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

New Living Translation
Though [b]he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

English Standard Version
who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Berean Study Bible
Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

Berean Literal Bible
Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider to be equal with God something to be grasped,

New American Standard Bible
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

King James Bible
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Christian Standard Bible
who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited.

Contemporary English Version
Christ was truly God. But he did not try to remain equal with God.

Good News Translation
He always had the nature of God, but he did not think that by force he should try to remain equal with God.

Do you know why some used nature and some clearly states He is God? Because of the Greek word used there Morphe which denotes nature,kind,type etc.. not SUBSTANCE.

You are forcing me to go down your line and that can't be because NATURE IS NOT SUBSTANCE.

Nature:

the basic or inherent features, character, or qualities of something.

synonyms: essence, inherent/basic/essential characteristics, inherent/basic/essential qualities, inherent/basic/essential attributes, inherent/basic/essential features, sum and substance,character,identity.

Nature by definition isbthe basic or inherent features or character or qualities of something.... this is the definition of Nature

And then Synonyms, essence,essential characteristics...... SUM AND SUBSTANCE.... have you realised it's not only SUBSTABCE but SUM AND SUBSTANCE

By Dictionary

Sum:

the whole of something after all the different features or parts that it consists of are taken into account:

Putting this meaning there it says nature of something is the total attribute or characteristics of something including every part of that thing...

SO STOP TRYING TO BE SMART AND USING THINGD I NEVER SAID OR USED IN OUR ARGUMENT....

Point nicely made and logically put. I have been following your argument with barrister now and it is evident you are as a learned person should always aspire to do, explaining yourself well by defending all the words you have rightly put up. Barrister on the other hand, as smart debaters do, quickly put in words that you did not use, quickly divert the matter at hand into something else so the reader will think you zodiakzax is making a fool out of yourself, but not until one reads your defence and realise that barrister is using cheap gimmicks as a debator and has won no respect of mine as a neutral reader.

It is only clear that what you intend from the beginning is to point out that Nature is what makes up an entire being and differentiates that being from other beings even though they may be in the same realm or estate. So God as you rightly put it even though Spirit something He has in common with His creation, Angels, is Far superior and powerful than the Angels, hence God cannot be an angel because one is far superior in being than the other, hence Nature comes to play. Perfect example is the Human and Dog, and I wonder why barrister cannot understand this. Also remember zodiakzax that not all have the same intelligence as some, so even though sometimes frustrating you have to condone.

Well done. Note that you might think this is only an argument but some of us are actually following and learning

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