OneJ: No. Christians are not polytheists if John 1:1 reads Jesus "the Word is a god". It perfects & solidify the harmony of the holy scriptures.
1). Mr Gruni, remove indefinite articles from Acts 12:22 ,Acts 28:6 & defend the rendition of both verses without indefinite articles. That's what every unbiased observer (that U had claimed to be) would do.
Until U do the needful (1) above, U are running away from the truth
2). Psalms 82:6, is Yahweh wrong to call his sons "gods"?
1 Cor 8:5, who are the gods in heaven ?
3). Is the one God in 1 Cor 8:6 contradicting your "the word is God" John 1:1 ? Shalom.
My dear OneJ, like is said, we are not here to play nor do we lack understanding. 1cor 8:6 is clear to say there's is but only One God and One Lord in Christianity. Even though some worship many gods and many lords, we worship only One God and One Lord. Please kindly accept this or let it go. I am not unwise not to understand this for myself. If you still persist in fighting this lost cause then I do not think you are fit to.even understand your own bible.
Can you kindly tell me Who the sons are in Psalms 82?
So why not leave it to be and the Word was Divine? Why did the NWT insert another meaning? Is the translation not supposed to be accurate? You can put a foot note there if you want but to render it "a god" makes a laughing stock of your own belief my dear.
OneJ: U dey quote 1 Cor 8:4-6 wey U done shut down your brain to reject, make the truth no sink in.
"For though there be that are called gods , whether in heaven or in earth" vs 5,
Zodiakzax , who are those called gods in heaven?
Everybody dey see your lies with korokoro eyes.
My dear OneJ, let us be wise and read carefully all that your holy Scriptures say and let us in all honesty seek truth. For though they be that are called gods and lords etc, the writer says that about idols. False gods, he said for though there are some that are called gods and lords but unto the Christian the is but One God and One Lord. If Christianity Aknowledges that there are many gods then I'm sorry dear then your religion is Polytheism not monotheism. You see you might think im taking sides buts that's not the case. From every source Christianity is Monotheist but if Christianity believes in many gods then the religion is to be questioned. I'm very critical about this. I think ypubshould also stop playing games, we are learned and we know and understand what we read..thank.you.
Jesus is not the one addressed as sovereign Lord. That renders your postulation weak and useless
Don't forget someone made him Lord , But no one made the Father God.
So it's basically senseless comparing the two
My dear Barristter07, if God the Father is the sovereign Lord then why is Jesus the Christ the One Lord? This question by zodiakzax is clear enough for me. If I come to your house and your father is head of the house but delegates that authority you, does it mean that your Father stops being the head? Nay, He is the overall head right? So in this case when I come and ask who is the One head of the family, your Father should be the one in question not you the son for you were only sharing in the authority of your Father, you are not the authority. Now it is very interesting that there is One God and One Lord. And these are both the Father and the Son. The Father is God and the Son is the Ruler and Master.
Hi, I have been quite busy. I will make time and respond appropriately. Now, if John 1:1 is translated as "a god" that will make Christians Polytheist no doubt. We have instances where the definite article didn't preceed theos but was still rendered God (I will provide scriptures from sources later). Christians are not Polytheist because Christians have only One God and One Lord. My question is if most scholars agree that the word was divine, why didn't the NWT leave it as such? Why say "a god" when that will make Christianity Polytheist. Have a nice day.
The Christianity taught & practiced by Jesus Christ is strictly monotheism, similar to Judaism. Jesus answered, "the first is ' Hear O Israel, Jehovah (Yahweh) our God is one Jehovah (Yahweh)" Mark 12:29. Deut 6:4.
That's the reason Jesus called Jehovah (Yahweh), his God & Father, " the ONLY TRUE GOD. John 17:3. Exodus 6:3. Psalms 83:18. Trinity , (the triune god )is counterfeit Christianity. Shalom.
My dear, Thank you for the answer, kindly out of respect answer zodiakzax too because we are all here to ascertain truth, I'm keen to know the answer to that question where he asked you if Charles Russell was the founder of the Jehovah Witnesses organization. At least the dictionary says he was don't know why he's asking you but kindly answer as you deem fit to answer mine.
Now, I'm glad you said Christains are Monotheist and not polytheist. Can you kindly explain why you still consider Christianity as being Monotheist even though you say Jesus is "a god"? Because we have two gods, one greater than the other.
Before yoy answer kindly research about the Greek gods and goddesses, Egyptian gods, etc you will understand how the gods are viewed in ancient greece and Egypt,.some are higher than some in power, strength,might, wisdom, beauty etc but they are all gods. Thank you.
1) It is not speculation, But, SOLID FACT. KJV Bible was translated from the Textus Receptus ,16th century manuscript. Acts 28:6 (word for word transliteration to English): " They said god him to be" (in other words , they said he is god".
Acts 28:6 kJV Bible... "...they changed their minds, and said that he was a god"
The various Bible versions confirmed the fact " a god" is the proper rendition because the grammatical construct is the same with John 1:1. The grammatical construct of the original language manuscript as well as the context determines the placement of indefinite article. "a god or divine or godlike" , any of this is appropriate.
2) The Christianity taught & practiced by Jesus Christ is monotheistic , just like Judaism.
My dear OneJ, thanks for the answer. Can I point to you where the definite article isn't proceeding theos but was still translated as God " Almighty" . I will shortly do that. Now taking a look at your claim, I have read the Acts 28:6 and there's something we need to analyse here. Someone was writing an account concerning what happened on a journey. The writer of Acts said the people said Paul was a god. This is the people saying so. Now the people making this statement should be polytheist because they say Paul was "a god", meaning they believed in different gods and Paul was one of them. There was an account in Acts where the Greeks thought, Pual and Barnabas were gods, one Mercurius and the other Jupiter, these were greek gods of old. The priest even went ahead to make sacrifices to them. You see my dear, this was written because it was witnessed by the writer, not to imply that these gods were accepted by Christianity. In Acts 28 another similar things happened when they thought Paul was a god. But in the case of Jesus Christ and John 1:1, the writer was speaking specifically about the epitome of your faith, Jesus Christ, if he assumes that Jesus was a type of god, another god and not the Almighty then Christians are Polytheist and not Monotheist. I hope this find you well. Your colleagues accuse me of me being a pretender, and fake etc the thing is it doesnt take rocket science to understand the written words in a book. I'm an open person, I love reading and doing researches, I have done great deal of research into Islam to know that Islam is false, and Muhammed is a sex addict, and was occasionally possessed by the devil, how do I know this? Logic, the quran tells you many things, and common logic will show you the truth.
TATIME: There is only one true God and all other intelligent beings must be submissive to that one and only God! HE made Moses like a God to Pharaoh of Egypt and made Jesus like a God before all His contemporaries. Both Moses and Jesus kept directing honesthearted individuals to the One who made them Gods. Deuteronomy 6:4 compared to John 20:17 Neither Moses nor Jesus is to be worshipped as "God" since they both directed people to worship their own God! On the other hand Satan has blinded the minds of billions to be worshipping creatures instead of the Creator. Satan tried to steal the body of Moses to be using his appearance to deceive gullible Israelites into worshipping Moses but Jesus(Michael) stopped him! Jude 9 Satan knows that the deception to induce people into worshipping creatures either living or dead has been blown open so his is changing operations into telling them that they should worship Jesus (2Corinthians 11:14) but it's still the same logic "you don't need to be obedient to any rules since you're worshippers of Jesus" Whereas Jesus Himself said "you must know EXACTLY what His father ask you to do and KEEP ON DOING IT" John 13:17 So Mr Gruni1234, we are not in the position to tell you what you need to do but we're obliged to present to you the things that Jesus Christ taught His followers to be doing and how you can join the one and only group where you'll be encouraged(Hebrews 10:24,25) to keep on doing it so as to bear good FRUITS or permit me to say fine WORKS. 2Peter 1:5-8 God bless you!
My dear Tatime, you insult my intelligence when you tell me there's only One God and yet go ahead to say the other "gods" are intelligent beings. Yes the Torah is clear that Moses was made Like God, and Like God he is not God. Kindly support your claim that Jesus was made Like God to his contemporaries, of you can please.
Every Religion has it's own believes, medieval Greeks believed in many Gods and Goddesses, Egyptians believed in many Gods and goddesses, Romans the same etc the Muslim believe in only One God, and the Christians also believe in only one God. I believe we are all educated and can understand logic.
Kindly answer the questions I asked Young OneJ,
And to you I simply ask: is Christianity Polytheism or Monotheism?
OneJ: mumu post of serial liars everywhere. Greek theos basically means god / gods,goddess. The Greek language does not distinguish upper case & lower case , as it is in English. Mumu people, theos is god. Translators of the Bible into English changed theos to god/ God where appropriate.
John1:1a - in the beginning was the word John 1:1b- the word was with the god (that's how it is written in Greek) ( John 1:1a/b , there is definite article "the" John 1:1c - the word is god (no definite article there precedes "god", as it is in John 1:1b.
Therefore, indefinite article "a" must precede "god". Hence, Acts 12:22, 28:6,John 1:1c is " a god." That's the rule of Greek grammar Your KJV knows this , but stuck to falsehood in John 1:1c.
The oldest Bible far older than any English Bible , the Sahidic Coptic Bible in John 1:1c reads. "a god".
"Every one who believes that Jesus is the Messiah has been born from God (Yahweh) and everyone who loves the parent (Yahweh) loves the child" - 1 John 5:1. But , umu iberibe upgraded the child to usurp his parent by fire by force. Lol Una stupidity no go end.
Young Sir, I would like to ask some questions, I will be glad you can answer me and not ignore me.
From your speculation, you said because theos lack definite article it should translated "a god"
Now my question is:
1.is theos always translated as " a god" whenever there's no definite article preceding it?
TATIME: When the inspired writers were penning down those words, was there any difference between the way they rendered the Gods of the nations to distinguish their own God,apart from using names? Whether GOD or God or god,the Hebrews rendered all the same way. So if JEHOVAH the God of Israel is rendered as GOD, then Zeus the Greecian deity is also rendered GOD. It's the translators that started the capital and small letters. Therefore John 1:1 could be rendered "in the beginning was the word and the word was with GOD and the word was GOD" while Exodus 7:1 could also be rendered "look i have made you GOD before Pharaoh and Aaron your brother shall be your Prophet" It's the translators including the watchtower that's adding meaning to the inspired writings based on their respective interpretations! So whenever you see the title "god" know today that those who pronounced it back then made no distinction between the deities whether it's that of Israel or Egypt. It's the WORKS or FRUITS of each God that proves who is superior! According to 1Corinthians 8:5 "there are many GODS and LORDS" depending on how high the worshippers tries to esteem their deity,and while the worshippers from different deities are practicing interfaith as in doing everything in common, Christians only worship one GOD:meaning they have just "one doctrine and teaching" unlike other people who aren't stable in their ideologies regarding GOD!
My dear Tatime, you were an ex Muslim right? You believed in one God right? Muslims are not polytheist right? Now imagine in the quran there are two Allahs, that will go against the beliefs of Islam. Now I looked up the Corithians 8: 4-5 you mentioned and it's clear that the writer said unto them meaning you Christians there's but one God. So Christians are not Polytheist. You see i looked up this Moses Pharoah issue and the right translation is "Like God", going through the Torah and independent of the bible, it is clear that God said he will make Moses Like God to Pharoah not God. You can be like someone and yet not be that person. You can look it up yourself.
Christians having one God in that context my dear Tatime is not to mean one religion and one doctrine. It simply means One God. Others believe there many gods, that's their belief but unto you the Christians there's but one God and not many, to say there are many then like the Greeks you are polytheist. Greeks do not believe in One God, they believe in many gods so if John 1:1 is to be translated "a god" then it means you Christians are also polytheist my dear. But if its left as " the word was divine" then it is God because if not that then Polytheism would be taught in that regard.
Yes my dear. It is, the appropriate should have been God or divine. No one had the right to assume it was a smaller god. I have done enough search into that when OneJ asked me to, and from all angles including Atheist greek scholars, the word was divine, that should be left alone as it is or as God. You become a polytheist which your very religion is against. Polytheism is the believe in many gods. So if you say the word is a god, you them say there are two gods.
CAPTIVATOR: I know you will try to evade, like you said that you are following the Bible, so since an angel is called God, even Yahweh , Why are you lots shouting about Thomas calling Jesus My God Can u see you are making a lost case . since angels are called Yahweh , the Triune God is False , why not add this Angels to the league of persons in a God ?
Hebrews said Jesus has been made better than angels . self explanatory . that context explains that Chapter.
You see my dear, first of all let me make this clear. The book of Hebrews makes it clear that Jesus was and is not an angel. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong according to what Hebrews says. I will challenge a Christian Trinitarian or not to prove otherwise. I am presented with the fact and truth and i go by it, I see A and know it's A, so why do you tell me it's B when what you are using to support your claim is base on assumption and speculations. Evidence I have of your own bible says He's not An angel. Now if Yahweh gives his name to an angel, does that make that Angel Yahweh? Hebrews tells us no angel was begotten of God. Only Jesus was/is. That's a fact presented to me. And I will go by it. Unless the bible contradicts itself. Do you know it as an angel that appeared to Moses in the burning bush? Do you know it was an angel that told Abraham not to kill Isaac? You Christians assume so much yet know little about the Torah.
CAPTIVATOR: I showed you something, instead of addressing it you ran to John 1:1 translation . very biased individual . on this issue of John 1:1 you have no point , Someone already pointed out that " a god " is not a wrong translation of theos . so be it. address the issue I present to you at first
I have nothing more to say, John 1:1 was an example to show you that Atheist believe in the translation as God not "a god" to tell you that an Atheist doesn't believe in God even though he was called upon. He could have just rejected them and say go away I don't believe in God, but you see we are more civil and learned to accommodate everyone. Afwtrall you can't prove God exists so why do I fight with you. God exists yet there's hunger, murder of innocent children. Then he's no God.
But it's obvious our communication,logics and comprehension of simple English language is quite on a different level. So with your case my dear friend, I have nothing more to say. You are just confirming everything zodiakzax says about your lack of intelligence.
brocab: So if you refuse to believe in the above, then how do you believe below? Christians don't turn to Atheist, Christians turn to God! It was the Holy Spirit that gave the Disciples insights how to write the bible..And it is the Holy Spirit that gives us knowledge how to understand the bible.
That is not the case Young Sir, the new testament was written in Greek. To translate and transliterate to English you need scholars. The Apostles of Jesus did not write in English, they wrote medieval greek. Scholars including Atheist Scholars helped in some versions of the bible, especially in the meanings of the Greek words. You can do a search yourself. You see I've dealt with Christians for some time now and I've really met good open minded ones. For example the Witnesses are saying Jesus is an angel, I was presented with two debaters on both sides trying to defend their claim. Evidence provided was Hebrews that says Jesus was not an angel, I don't think I need your Holy Spirit to understand this. The understanding is clear enough. What you might say I need your Holy Spirit for is to show me that God exists, show me God's power which he is yet to do, that's if God exists.
CAPTIVATOR: stop this pretending, it cannot help you . You are a trinitarian just admit it are you scared ? You said Jehovah witness are confused , Trinitarians are even far confused , Do you know there is an Angel in the Old testament that answered the name Yahweh which cause confusion among trinitarians some saying he ia Jesus others saying he isn't. A house divided against itself cannot stand. Research it. Now if they can claim an Angel is Jesus , only to use their second mouth to attack Jehovah's witnesses , what does that tell You ? Rubbish . see what got question a trinitarian website said about this Angel of the Lord here : https://www.gotquestions.org/amp/angel-of-the-Lord.html
Trinitarians are confused bunch.
Here lies another problem, Jehovah Witnesses are also Christians, yet you are against a truine God, Trinitarians fighting among themselves etc doesn't matter, all matters is what the bible says and if presented well enough then you accept what it teaches. With a clear mind and an educated one Hebrews was so clear to point out that Jesus was and is not an angel. I'm not unwise to know what that means. If there's nothing clear on whether Jesus was the Angel that answers the name Yahweh or not that's not an issue to me dear friend. Besides that is in the Torah and who best can we learn the Torah from except the Jews themselves. Who did they believe this angel was? Was it the Messiah to come? Or not.
CAPTIVATOR: Bro , I said Gruni1234 is a pretender and underground trinitarian on this thread , an objective researcher would have asked questions as Tatime said to uncover areas which might not have been evident to an average reader , Bro many trinitarians believe that there is an Angel In the old testament whose identity is Jesus . If you have the time check this trinitarian website , and you too Gruni1234, https://crossexamined.org/who-is-the-angel-of-the-lord/ it says in part it becomes evident that the angel of the Lord is none other than the pre-incarnate Christ Himself
First of my dear Friend, if I'm a Trinitarian or Unitarian doesnt really matter to me if I become a Christian. What matters to me is I follow the precept of the bible and the bible alone. If the bible tells me My God is a truine God so be it. If it doesnt so be it. I dont need anyone,group or organization to tell me how to know God.I have a brain to think and I've gone to school enough to understand English, what,how and when the bible means.
Your fellows are doing a poor job defending their beliefs , they say one and then change it to mean another. I am a witness to this, I can read and write and know logic. So what you say doesn't really matter to me. I see the way zodiakzax deals with you in verbal assault which I'm against but it seems it could just be The right means to explore given how you just attacked me.
Now get this right as your other colleague got it wrong.I want you to know most atheist do not believe the bible is fabricated, we only don't believe there's a God. Christians turn to Scholars, Atheist scholars who are very educated in the Greek language for council, they help in the Greek text and language as to what it means or not. These scholars mostly accept John 1:1 as the word being divine, and as divine means God. Your assertion that it's "a god" clearly misrepresent the verse. Many Atheist greek scholars accept it to be God not "a god" does that make them a believer that God exists? Get your facts right Young Sir.
Don't ever think you are here on your own free will-you are not here on your own free will-most people would run from sights like this-I ran away from everything to do with religion-my flesh would war against His Spirit--before I came to know the Lord, but God had His hand on me-He sends in the big guns, "Christians, I didn't know why at first-but He was leading me to make my choice-and what a choice I had made, I wouldn't turn back to my old self-my old self was dead in it tracks! "so If Christ isn't real-then why are you here? I will tell you why? Christ brought you here, because He is real..
The previous video was quite shocking, does the bible really teach to disown your own who doesnt believe in What you believe in? This is strange. Honestly, I never knew the bible taught hatred, to the point of disowning your very flesh and blood. This is absurd, Christianity is absurd. I thought Jesus taught about forgiveness and Love. I thought he said what good is it to do good to others who returns same good to you. Wow, I'm beyond speech. Speechless. Many of my friends are Christians but we go out together do stuff together, eat together, drink together, work together, they never rejected me. Are they ignorant of their own religion? So what good is there then in Christianity?
TATIME: Don't bother yourself about the Gruni guy, he is a pretender. An honest and neutral reader will only ask questions to know who truly understand what they're claiming, not praising a side and condemning the other during a debate. And according to him(Gruni1234) he is preparing to go on declaring a religious group false whereas he claims to be an atheist as in NEUTRAL! If he truly is an atheist, what's his interest in a debate that's based on a written document(Bible) that he and other atheists believe was fabricated? Is he now convinced that there is a God and that this same God is three in one? Whoever wants to learn can only do so by asking thought provoking questions from preachers who comes to them in the name of the Lord, not dabbling into what his faculty strongly assert is nonsense and start passing judgement on what he himself don't even value. Hypocrites can't fool all the people all the time. So if he wants to argue in support of Trinity, let him and his other friends go out there to preach,teach and convince people that Jesus is the same person who sent himself period!
One thing I know Sir, not all atheist believe that the bible was fabricated. You see you have to know more about a persons belief before you conclude. There's the bible, quran, Torah, books of the Hindus etc all believing in a "God" what we believe is it doenst matter what those books say since there's no physical evidence of a god then we don't believe in it. We don't go about trying to prove that the bible is a fabrication , at least not me and some of my friends, we challenge you to prove to us that God exists. One thing I know for sure and evidence proves is that there was someone called Jesus, a saviour, who was crucified by the Romans. This is evident enough for me to research and know more about who this Jesus was if indeed he's who the bible says he is. Some might believe he's fictional,I don't. So get your points right the next time.
During the course of discussion on Sum and Substance , A question was posed to Zodiakzax that did Jesus know the end ? He knowing Matt 24:36 said because Jesus is human . he didn't know. So it was asked if that excuse is genuine, Why didn't Holy spirit know?
Logically if holy spirit is a person, it should have been mentioned alongside son and Father at Matthew 24:36. Banker!
But it wasn't , Explaining this Zodiakzax posted that holy spirit hasn't been revealed before that time ( His purpose of saying this is to remove it from the nobody) , but while explaining he made a serious blunder that he cannot rectify without falling into different loopholes .
He said on 7:26pm on November 30
The identify of that HIM . is not something Zodiakzax can do easily , He said that him is not God the Father 3:16am , December 1
Later it includes God the Father again : contradicting himself as posted on 7:26pm on November 30 forgetting I didn't assume but he has said holyspirit is within that Him and One with God which he later said was the Father above.
I want him to reconcile the above contradiction:
" One WITH God " " one With the Father "
" within God "
Can't be within itself
Within something means that is another entity entirely.
Captivator , OneJ , Gruni1234
Point 2
Barrister Sir, I think you need to do a little study on what the trinity is and the truine God as believed by zodiakzax and the mainstream Christians.
One with God, means being part of the Godhead He the Holy Spirit is God.
One with the Father
The Father here is part of the trinity, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and these three are ONE
One in what? Nature and essence. I believe is their point including zodiakzax
So if these three are ONE in nature and essence then the Holy Spirit is One with the Son and one with the Father.
So He is absolutely right to say The Holy Spirit is One with the Father.
If he said "same as the Father" then that's where the problem willl be. I think he explained this already. So can you leave this analyses to a third party? I will present your case and his and from analyses see whose is valid or not.
TATIME: There is nothing you can get from reading comments of argumentators on social media my friend. Because each person will just continue to quote the Bible mostly out of context. If you want to know anything about Jesus of Nazareth, i'll implore you to consider reading through the Bible paying attention to His own utterances,think over what this young man had in mind before talking and then try to figure out those OBEYING His instructions around you today. His name has survived the most powerful enemies of good reputation in human history so Satan(the principal enemy of truth) has changed his system from "if you can't beat them, join them" to "if you can't beat them, LEAD them" So today many are fighting hard against Jesus' true followers but they thought they're doing so for Jesus. I'll only give you one single sign. Every religion that's promoting personal interests in the minds of adherents can't be Christians because Jesus is an advocate of selflessness. Matthew 10:39,16:25,Mark 8:35,36,Luke 9:24,17:33 As for your question regarding how humans came up with the idea of the existence of God, i'll like you to ask any questions that comes into your heart and please don't hide your feelings because that's the only way you can get to the root of the sacred secret. If you believe in the power of reasoning, that will be ideal for our discussion since you don't believe in a written document like the Bible so we can make use of our brains and intellect. All are gifts from JEHOVAH but for now let's concentrate on what you think we can use to solve the riddle "our human brains". Thank you!
Well that is for us to judge Sir, every side presents evidences of their claim. Don't think nothing is happening, we can ascertain truth in all write ups. It's just evident that Jehovah Witnesses are not straight forward when answering and defending a doctrine. They employ trickery, and prey on the minds of the unlearned. For instance OneJ clearly said Jesus was not an angel, later changed his mind, he said Jesus was begotten as the messianic king but was shown to him that teaching is even against his own organizations that Jesus was begotten before he came to this world before all creation.How did he defend that, he clearly wanted to deny he meant that, but we all saw what he wrote. So Sir, you might be amazed how many people read the debate between zodiakzax and barristter even from my end, . You wouldnt understabd now but when our book is out, you will know the relevance of all this. Clearly like I said not being a biased person, barristter,OneJ are struggling to confront the truth. And it is a shame really.
During the course of discussion on Sum and Substance , A question was posed to Zodiakzax that did Jesus know the end ? He knowing Matt 24:36 said because Jesus is human . he didn't know. So it was asked if that excuse is genuine, Why didn't Holy spirit know?
Logically if holy spirit is a person, it should have been mentioned alongside son and Father at Matthew 24:36. Banker!
But it wasn't , Explaining this Zodiakzax posted that holy spirit hasn't been revealed before that time ( His purpose of saying this is to remove it from the nobody) , but while explaining he made a serious blunder that he cannot rectify without falling into different loopholes .
He said on 7:26pm on November 30
The identify of that HIM . is not something Zodiakzax can do easily , He said that him is not Hod the Father , and later posted
Sir, first of all show evidences where he said the "Holy Spirit Hasn't been revealed before that time" what he said was the holy spirit wasn't FULLY revealed, and also used the word "COMPLETELY". Like I said you are not qualified to do this.
Also zodiakzax told us the identity of that him to be God. This shouldn't be difficult to understand Sir, if I say "the Spirit is Not You", what does it mean? It means you are not the spirit. So if i say "the spirit of barristter is him", what do I mean? Meaning that spirit is you. The Trinitarians believe in a truine God so if he says God in question there is God in totality and not one part of the Godhead, it's understandable given their belief. You don't believe in a truine God so it is your assumption that God there is God the Father. Paul said God, not God the Father, was the point zodiakzax made. Sir, you see this wouldn't solve anything because he will also come and do the same. We are not unlearned to determine truth for ourselves? Nay, I can be able to determine all you guys said per evidences you brought. Also I think you should leave OneJ out of your cc's so it wouldn't cause any fumes again. Thank you
Based on this premise , Thankfully Form/Nature was also used in reference to humans in the same Philippians , Question is : Does that also mean Sum and Substance ? Or just Substance ( which is my own position )
I cited Hebrews 2:14 where we are told that the human nature Jesus shared his SAME to that of the Children. ( Zodiazzax couldn't reply this so he said on this aspect the below )
10:36am, December 1 he posted
He claimed Hebrew is irrelevant because there is no way he could explain and relate it with the question without somersaulting , He nevertheless acknowledged that scripture cannot contradict , But context must be examined.
Even at that he never cared to explain that Hebrews 2:14 on how Jesus nature is similar to the Children . contradicting himself that context must be examined, and he didn't.
cc: Gruni1234 , OneJ , Captivator .
Knowing that scripture cannot contradict, Explain that Hebrews in relation to Sum and Substance.
Point 1.
Sir, I think it is not in your place to make this claim. Everyone will be biased towards what he said. It is for your readers to ascertain truth and comment as such. Did zodiakzax really say hebrews was irrelevant without any explaination? No Sir, he told you you were going out of context and that Hebrews wasnt written in same context as philipians where the comparison was made.why pick some of his words and leave the rest out? I believe is a bad way of presenting a case obviously geared towards misquoting and misapplying your opponents ideology and and Zodiakzax I know will also refute this, then we go back on and on and on again. So I will look at your points and your claims and evidence presented then as a reader and a third party come out with proper analyses of the arguments. Thank you.
Guys did you read that? He has changed his sentence again by saying No OTHER angel ..idiots...you think we are kids here... you just said No angels in your previous comment now no other angel.....
How old are you kid? Did I mention Mary in comparison to Hebrews? Show me where i said that...You asked a stupid question that how was Jesus begotten , seems the name Mary worries you.. .. well you asked me how Jesus was begotten by God without a wife right? .. you mentioned wife.. so I said how was Mary pregnant without a Husband? You are so silly and block headed... God is almighty correct? So he's all powerful correct? SO HE IS NOT LIMITED IN ANYTHING correct? So why ask that stupid question? Does God need a wife? .....
He said:
"Paul said that statement in heb1:5-7 , emphasized that Yahweh has anointed Jesus Christ to occupy an exalted position as king, no other Angel had that privilege. Don't twist & distort its meaning with your stupidity"
Gruni123 did you see that? He's calling you stupid for clearly seeing that NO ANGEL was the Begotten of God... you see that's why I call them stupid and fools because they only make a fool out of themselves... they call themselves fools and stupid...
My friend Jesus wasn't begotten when He walked on the earth, he was begotten before the creation of all things..do you know that.. you don't even know the doctrine of your stupid organization... so stop.your stupidity... Hebrews 1:5 isn't talking about Jesus the Human being, are you that stupid, it was referring to Jesus as God's word before the creation of all things..
You see I'm an open guy I will answer anything you throw at me but you insult me when you don't answer my questions..
You are very stupid My friend, your lies have twisted your brain...
Where in the bible did it say Yahweh begot the angels? Tell me? Stop being stupid and silly, show me?
And your stupidity continues, what's wrong with you man? Honestly what's wrong?
My friend why are contradicting yourself again, ... so now you bring Only Begotten....
Obviousy you know nothing about the scriptures,.you are a kid and stupid...
You just said
"Yahweh has begotten myriads of sons in the spirit realm but only Jesus Christ was chosen as his only begotten son because he was the anointed Messianic King. That's the point that Paul emphasized in Heb1:5-7. Let it sink into your God-given brain (if it still exists) , bereft of mumu virus."
Let me teach you today.since your organization clearly has done a poor job. You don't even know how to lie..Barristter07 knows how to really lie, that's why I said you and your other friends are exposing him...
1. Yahweh did not beget any child in any spirit realm because Yehaweh created everything including those angels through His Son and for His Son. All things came into existence through his Son..
2. Jesus was not chosen as his begotten son because he was annointed as King, who taught you that? God so "loved the world that He sent His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON" God sent His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, and we are told He was begotten before all creation,
Here is what Your own stupid organization said about Him
The apostle John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the only-begotten Son of God. (Joh 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1Jo 4:9) This is not in reference to his human birth or to him as just the man Jesus. As the Loʹgos, or Word, “this one was in the beginning with God,” even “before the world was.” (Joh 1:1, 2; 17:5, 24) At that time while in his prehuman state of existence, he is described as the “only-begotten Son” whom his Father sent “into the world.” The angels of heaven are sons of God even as Adam was a “son of God.” (Ge 6:2; Job 1:6; 38:7; Lu 3:38) But the Loʹgos, later called Jesus, is “the only-begotten Son of God.” (Joh 3:18) He is the only one of his kind, the only one whom God himself created directly without the agency or cooperation of any creature. He is the only one whom God his Father used in bringing into existence all other creatures
You see how stupid you look now, you just said " Jesus Christ was chosen as his only begotten son because he was the anointed Messianic King." Your very own organization doesn't teach that stupidity. You see how they make you look so silly? ..don't blame..blame them.....
That's the website, go and educate yourself in your own foolish doctrine and come back well.. . ...I'm arguing with bunch of stupid amateurs, and kids ...let your elders come and debate us... obviously you don't know shit about your own organization, and here you are here defending them... repent..
Now look OneJ why are you not respecting me by answering me and this is the last time i asked you this, if you don't give me an answer then I know you are a chicken, and a scared little stupid dog...
Here are my questions again;
Did your mother create you or born you? ..giving that you say create is the same as born..
Do you believe the founder was Charles Russell? ... Dictionaries don't lie...
Scared����
I'm really shocked how simple truth is denied. I will address all relevant points soon. So many twists and turns. What's bothering me is why protect an organization when clearly has some flaws in their doctrine. Are you being paid for being there? The Jehovah witnesses here have totally disappointed me and has open my eyes to see their own deception. Just to say nothing anyone says will change the truth. I can from my own reading know and ascertain that Jesus Christ is not an angel. This is just the case. I will take all points all have made and write my final thoughts on all matters discussed so far.
@brocab, advice well received, i am not there yet but in time if he is really real then it shouldn't be a problem for him. Thank you.
Barristter07: Sum and substance. If that's correct, Neither you or zodiakzax should have problem explaining that Hebrews.
As it is you guys are floating.
Which Nature did he Share with the Children of Adam ? Taking into consideration " Sum" Imperfect like the children ?
U just started
Jesus exist before David , that's his point to his opposer's . that doesn't nullify he came through David line.
Nothing is Contradictory, I will deal with that baseless analogy when i reply him.
Am not against his quoting other verses , so far they relate to the point of discussion.
Na fear dey make him shake when he saw other verses
It's irrelevant , Show me the underlined boldly from that Hebrews ? You keep bringing up a matter not relevant to what we are discussing , I didn't discuss this and am not until am through with the present ones . Orderliness
The issue is " when God born "!!!
How did God born the mountains , Care to explain what that means ?
Good day to all of you.
Barristter07, let me tell you something about myself and let that be on the record.
1. I am not a child 2. I am not an illiterate 3.Going to school and getting my masters, and working on PHD isn't a child's play nor is it for illogical people.
Now, Hebrews was clear and I have read that myself about God calling NO angel the Begotten Son of God. Your good book says Jesus is made better than the Angels, the writer now continues to tell us more, "For unto which of the angels said he at any time " thou art my Son, today have i begotten thee? This was a rhetorical question, he said which of the angels? Who amongst them did he begotten? And again which of them said he at any time, I will be to him a Father and He shall be to me a Son?Another rhetorical question that answered itself. He continued to say when he brought in the firstborn into the world, he saith, And let ALL the angels of God worship him.if He says let ALL the angels worship him, isn't He talking about all? He continues to distinguish between the Son and Angels. So Sir, as a logical thinker and an educated one I know when A is A and when B is B. I can understand for myself what I read. Here it clearly says Jesus was not an Angel. If you still hold on to the belief that Jesus is an Angel when your very book says otherwise then that's your problem Sir. Maybe you don't want to acknowledge their mistake, and that's what corruption is, when you clearly sees A and everyone knows it's A then you say it's B. It's a shame really. So that was why it took you time to say He was the Begotten Son. And after you were drawn out, you continue to shame yourself Sir. It's rather a big Shame to your intelligence as a free moral agent as such a free moral thinker. Honesty is a great virtue.
If I should come to God today, I will do that by my own free will, also i will follow God by my own free will, when someone challenge my core belief and gives me evidence to support that claim, I will for the sake of me loving God, research vividly to see if what I am presented with makes sense in light of scripture. We dont debate for debating sake. And I am pleased I'm able to uncover a great deception amongst the Watch Tower Organization. Don't think your debate with zodiakzax is for fun, I'm actually learning alot and not only me, I have friends here following it. You will be surprised what they say about your lack of logical and critical thinking. You think I'm a JW hater no, to the contrary, I like you guys, always visiting me and spending some time with me. Only problem is you reject knowledge even though you know nothing about what the person is saying.
So they came to my house, we had a nice chat, they asked me to visit them, I told them I don't believe in God etc, they directed me to the website to read and know more about who God is etc. And later said they will bring me a tract that can prove God exists, I said fine, then I said, well can I also give you a material to prove to You that God doesn't exist? Read it and let me know what you also think, at least to be fair, so when we talk later we both know a little about each other's belief. Well they rejected it, says they don't read those kind of books, well then I also told them I'm sorry but I'm also not interested in your books and website. Told them if they are ready to read my books, I will also be ready to read theirs.
I have other Christian friends who will read my books and even use that to challenge me. It's been fun and as I also read their books, I go and challenge them but they always have an answer, weird, I will tell myself, these guys always answer me. It's been going on for sometime now, now I feel drawn to know about Christianity, Jesus, trinity etc in my search, I came across this website and many more. I've learnt alot for myself. I've called the Jw fellows to come over, following zodiakzax and others statements, I want to see if they can also plainly deny what's the obvious. It Will be a disappoint though.
zodiakzax: ..yes.... Now I am God so I will tell him how Jesus was begotten.. I have a penis on my right thigh and vagina on my left thigh, and then after I did myself I layed egg, and out of the egg Jesus came out... .... such stupidity.....
Hahahahahahahhaahaha zodiakzax, you are quite funny. But You know the interesting thing is that the Muslims actually believe that was how Shaiton(satan) gave birth to his demonic children. Exactly as you said it, having a p***s and a v****a on his thighs and with that he had intercourse with himself and laid an egg everyday and out of the eggs came 70 Satanic children. Islamic religion is one funny Religion with their prophet being possessed by Satan etc.
zodiakzax: .. You see how stupid you are Barristter07? You can't explain anything, only thing you can do is say E1 E2 E3 but you can't bodly answer simple questions thrown at you.. chicken.. is Jesus Christ the Begotten Son of God...the he runs around chasing his tail...
Let's start:
You said "According to the Bible, he shared the same nature as Adams Children, is the Bible lying ? #E3"
Well according to the same bible he shared in the nature of human. , why are you being dumb my friend, we need to go to the context to see what it means. Phil 2 was where the comparison of the two natures was made. Nature of God and Nature of man, you run to Hebrews a different book written in a different context to make a stupid claim. And the claim you make doesn't mean anything because Phil 2 didn't say anything about Children but HUMAN BEING, Human. If we both believe the writer of hebrew is the same Paul why DIDNT he use the same wording for that? You were making a stupid claim about the likeness of men and I challenged you it was human being, being referred to, and challenged you to bring Phil 2:6-7 from your NWT. You didn't and you run to Hebrews 1, where the word human is bodly written in Phil 2:7.
Your foolishness continues:
You said
"Gruni1234, Your fellow doesn't know scripture doesn't contradict.
Is Hebrew lying ?
That Hebrew explain the kind of human nature he has.
Why is this giving you headache
E1 hasn't been answered"
Hebrews is irrelevant, scripture doesn't contradict each other on the ideology it presents. One nonetheless must look at the context in which it is written to better understand it...
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. Revelation 22:16 KJV
JESUS clearly states here himself that he is the offspring of David, but we know he challenged some Jews who said he was the Son of David, He said how can He be son if David called Him LORD? Was Jesus trying to say he wasn't the Son of David? Is scripture contradicting itself? So to determine that you need to go back to the context in which it was written... .. So stop your stupidity....
JESUS came as A Perfect Human Being , Human without Sin for so were the first man made...per the context in which it was written..
You clearly made a fool out of yourself when you quoted me out of context, next time be cautious....
You continued:
Spirit of man is not man . FACT
So how come Man has Spirit,Soul and Body? Without the body there's no man, without Spirit and Soul, there's no man, so how come you say Spirit of Man is not man? You sound stupid all the time..
You continued your foolishness:
You said
"Okay who did Paul has in mind when mentioned Hod ?
you see how stupid you sound again?
Who did Paul have in mind? Stupid.. I'm I the spirit of Paul to know his mind? I can Only take his writing for it and He said no one knows the Thoughts of GOD except the Spirit of God..... So Paul is talking about God and not God the Father..... Paul clearly says God the Father when he has to. You see your problem is you base you stupidity on assumptions and not logic, that's what you are taught.
You continued
"It can never be Trinity because he mentioned spirit of God differently."
Irrelevant, why are you so dumb, did I say anything about trinity in that verse? I was barely telling you that THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS GOD. And I used that to Ellaborate that God is being spoken about there and not God the Father. .. guys... I'm I debating with an illiterate or what? Must I become a fool to communicate to a fool? I'm being so plain and simple in my communication yet I'm being misunderstood....
Also i challenged you previously on proving to me that my statement about the Holy Spirit meant he wasn't part of the trinity from the beginning. You ignored that ... don't open your mouth and make stupid bold Claims if you can't defend them...fool....
Everyone will see your stupidity including you stupid friends:
You said
"Colossians 1:15 " first BORN of all creation "
Firstborn of all creation, so why did you say Firstborn of God?.. ... if you want us to talk about Christ being the First born of creation do so and stop going around the Bush...
You are so funny,.you said again
"Hebrews 1:6 Gods first BORN"
Funny guy, you see how you don't understand scripture , the Greek word there to imply His is τὸν(ton) meaning "the"
So "His" is not a better renderation of that greek word and that is why you see the KJV and some others use "The" which is what the Greek says.
This is from your precious ESV
ESV And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.
So where does it say He is Gods firstborn?? My friend you see we are not as dumb and stupid and scared as you, all you had to say was "He was the First born of creation,meaning he was created", then using that we will see if he was created or not according to your claims. But if you stupidly say He is God's Firstborn which the verse didn't so say then you are telling us that you are being stupid...
His stupidity continues
"How was he born ?"
The same way Mary was able to become pregnant without a seed of man, which means God is capable of doing anything which the human mind cannot comprehend, same way Jesus was begotten.. ... i hope this answers your silly question..
In conclusion which really surprised me given I expected more from you, you said
"Gruni1234, see the highlighted .
How then did God born the mountains. If he didn't create them
Let's see how God Born"
You see how stupid you are? You cited Psalm 90:2 to prove your claim that God born the mountains, okay, I simply asked you
How did you know God borning the mountains means He created them? I did not see create there but born.. So how did you know it means He created them? Let me give you a good one, and I'm giving it to you on a silver platter... You see because I'm not scared like a chicken... do you know God did not create man but Made man, even though it is said He created All things? I'm praying it's not too hard for you to understand so we can have a lively chat about it....
Now you are asking me how did God born if he didn't create them, the verse there said Born not create, so why do you also assume it's create? ......my questions are simple yet he fails to understand them and answer them..
My friend you see I took my time to answer all your points why don't you answer mine
I asked you
"Were you born by your mother or were created by Her? Assuming the word create and born are the same"
You ignored it... why? ... You have no balls.. scared little "girl"
Things are getting interesting. Like i said before Barristter is struggling, please make sure to answer all questions addressed to You, I know how zodiakzax feels. Barristter also my advice is be on point and as learned person stay on a verse which explains itself. Good example zodiakzax used was the offspring of David thing, I'm to assume then that the bible contradicts itself? Well if it does then the bible itself is fake and not worthy of my time. I'm learning interesting things, but as a learned person I will do more research into that since zodiakzax didn't specifically say it does.
Barrister07, from the beginning of your debate with zodiakzax you held a very strong point that Jesus was a son of god just like angels are sons of God. You were asked repeatedly whether Jesus was the Begotten son of God, you were never specific in your answering. Now that you accept Jesus is the Begotten Son of God, then indeed Jesus cannot be an angel since the Book of Hebrews says NO ANGEL was begotten of God. It is quite clear that that doctrine is false and must be removed.
Surely born is not the same as create. Born is bring forth out of pre-existing substance whereas create is to bring forth out of nothing.
Your mother gave birth(born) to you. She did not create you. To say she created you is nonsense since that's not the case.
I am currently reading more about the doctrine of the Jehovah witnesses on who Jesus Christ is/was. I will post my find when I'm done. And like I said I will not be biased. I have started John 1:1 and it's getting interesting already.
Isaac was Abrahams begotten Son, Abraham brought forth Isaac, Abraham generated Isaac. He asks how did Abraham beget Isaac, My answer
through sexual intercourse of course, and I said BUT ABRAHAM DID NOT CREATE ISAAC.
[b] Ignoring that He asked a rather stupid and irrelevant question, is Isaac created?
To answer that:
Isaac was Abraham's begotten Son and not Yahweh's begotten Son, Abraham brought forth Isaac, Abraham generated Isaac. ABRAHAM DID NOT CREATE ISAAC. YAHWEH CREATED ABRAHAM SO YES YAHWEH CREATED ISAAC. Using the same analogy
GOD BROUGHT FORTH THE SON, GENERATED THE SON, BEGET THE SON. GOD DID NOT CREATE THE SON.YAHWEH IS NOT CREATED SO THE SON CANNOT BE CREATED.
zodiakzax your LIES & verbal somersaults are like Siamese twins. Let's see....
A) https://yourdictionary.com/bring-forth Bring forth definition *Past participle: brought forth 2. to give birth 3. to CREATE, generate, bring into existence.
C) https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ beget 1 to procreate ,as the Father to cause to exist. Synonyms for beget CREATE, cause, generate,produce *Begotten- past participle of beget.
Yahweh CREATED (generated, made, beget, produced) Jesus Christ, his "first begotten", first born of creation. Yahweh caused Jesus to exist via creation. (Col 1:15. Rev 3:14,. Prov 8:22). For that reason, in heaven and on the earth, Jesus called Yahweh. "my Father and my God". John 20:17. Rev 3:12, 21.
Zodiakzax & your trinity crew (modern day Pharisees who upgraded Jesus to God), the rug has been pulled off your feet, stop grasping at straws. U are standing on quicksand. U either sink or press exit mode to receive sense. Shalom
Interesting. So you say generate means to create according to dictionary. Okay can you kindly tell me the difference between To make and to create?
It will interest me to see how it's answered. Dictionary will do if you don't mind. Playing with English language is funny at times, one has to be very careful what he reads and how he understands it. In many languages one things meaning is sole specific to that thing but in English one thing can mean another but in relating it, the two will be distinctive. Thank you
OneJ, yes I'm taking my time to do a research on the John 1:1 as you said, so I will let you know what I think once I am done, i promise not to lean on one side.
brocab: This preacher is Paul Washer, if you are super serious to know the truth-then he may explain the Word of God to you, clearly on the video! But if you are not super serious then I suppose you are just here enjoying the arguments: But if you can find God, in between all that, then good luck. And rightly said: lets read the Word of God in the Watchtower NWT Bible {1 John 5:20} And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. And again lets read another verse that is written in their bible-that they verbally refuse to believe? NWT Bible {Revelation 22:20} “The one who bears witness of these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly.’”d “Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.” So you can see, surprisingly the KJ's and the NWT bible are true in these two scriptures-the JW's have always preach Jehovah is coming back-so really if this is true, then Jehovah is Jesus who is coming back-and if Jesus is Jehovah-then Jesus is God coming back, this they verbally deny, it is written in black and white-it stands out clearly, the truth doesn't change, and of course someone in the Watchtower believes in these verses, they can't be removed, even if they do rewrite their bible again, they argue over something they don't know, because when confusion sets in' they are lost, if they knew how to read their bible, everybody will be on the same page-to know who God really is....
Let me start answering you then, hope everyone enjoys:
You said:
"na wah , Adam cannot save you. Like I said earlier " SUM " go put you for. Hot trouble"
Ans: irrelevant, If Adam hadn't disobeyed, God wouldn't have come to die for my sins.
You said
"Which human being perfect or imperfect ?"
Bruv honestly all jokes aside are you saying Jesus was born Imperfect? God never made man imperfect, Sin made man imperfect, God cannot come as an imperfect man but a perfect man hence the miraculous birth of Jesus. I'm being serious here don't for argument sake be stupid to say My Lord Jesus was born imperfect...
You said
" since therefore the children share in flesh and blood , he himself likewise partook of the SAME NATURE " Heb 2:14 RSV
Abeg, which nature did the children have which Jesus shared same , Perfect or Imperfect ?"
Now we jumb to RSV, , what happened to Phil 2:7 NWT version... by the way John 1:1 RSV says and the Word was God.. So by using RSV do you believe it's true?
Well The perfect humans in the garden of Eden weren't made of gold and silver, gold their body and silver their blood, they were also flesh and blood just like us.
Don't forget " Sum "..... I didn't...
You said
"For the records, human spirit is not a person". ( Luke 23: 46
Well without the Spirit of man there's no person. The Human is Spirit, Soul, Body... without one the other isn't complete.
Good now the problem:
You said
"The problem with defending a. Lie is , you will keep telling another lie to cover the first one. And you well know this is not the first time of you been caught telling lies on this thread to defend yourself.
[i] @ red , if going by your assumption ( which is funny as hawizzy007 pointed out in relation to Trinity, means Trinity never existed from beginning . . ) that a topic for another day"
Well why can't the topic be for today? Hawizzy007 obviously did not understand what i wrote and therefore making a fool out of himself, you on the other hand I thought was more discerning than the others, you have also completely showed that you as dumb as them..... Well I challenge you to prove to me from my statement that what i said meant trinity never existed from the beginning....
You said
"If holyspirit is same with the Father before been manifested to the world , TELL US Which Spirit. God gave Moses ? The Father ?"
Let's see what I said
So the Holy Spirit took over COMPLETELY AS THE THIRD PERSON OF THE TRINITY WHEN JESUS SENT HIM. SO JESUS COULD NOT HAVE INCLUDED HIM BECAUSE HE WAS THE SAME GOD (BEING ONE WITH THE FATHER)HE WAS REFERRING TO AS KNOWING THE TIME.
Well I never said he was same as the Father,did I? ....I said he was the Same God, being ONE with the Father.. Holy Spirit is God and He is One with the Father as God. I never said the Holy Spirit was the Father did I?
Now you said "Neither did he say " its in the power of the Father and I " .
But clear , Fathers own power !
Scripture doesn't. Contradict ( Matt 24:36)"
Well you made a bold statement that you can show me where Christ said he didn't know the time even after the resurrection.
So we both agreed that Christ wasn't the same after the Resurrection. I told you before the resurrection we know Christ didn't know the time because He said so, and because He humbled himself as Man and didn't want to claim equality with God.
Since we both agree that Christ changed after the resurrection then we need to also carefully examine him after the resurrection,
when asked the same question after the resurrection He didn't say He didn't know, all he said was it was in the Fathers own Power, so since as you said he didn't also say "its in the power of the Father and I" then we can't conclude hence your so sure claim doesn't make sense... You were still assuming...
You said "The Father calls him My son, and he himself said i am Gods son. Later at revelation he DECLared it again."
You are still making a fool of yourself by denying that Jesus is the Begotten Son of God. Why are you denying scriptures man. Scripture clearly says He's the Begotten Son of God.
You are clearly getting out of your senses bruv, your organization believe that Jesus is the Begotten Son of God and yet you come here because you were exposed, to lie.. my problem is with your organization and their lies not you, so if YOU don't believe that Jesus Is the BEGOTTEN Son of God then that's up to you.
Quoting from your website your organization says:
"The angels of heaven are sons of God even as Adam was a “son of God.” (Ge 6:2; Job 1:6; 38:7; Lu 3:38) But the Loʹgos, later called Jesus, is “the only-begotten Son of God".
Here is the link, go and educate yourself in your false doctrines again and come well..
Well, term begotten anything you please bruv since it doenst mean create then we are cool.
Your stupidity continues:
Abraham exist Before Isaac , how was he begotten? By sexual inter course with Sarah . the only one from that union.
Clearly the Father exist before the son , so how was Jesus brought into existence"
Yahweh had sexual intercourse with Himself, seems thats what you want me to say .... stupidity... most useless question I have ever been asked....
Isaac was the Begotten of Abraham even though he wasnt the only Son, even though Isaac including the other Sons of Abraham came as a result of sexual intercourse, Isaac is said to be the Begotten of Abraham.. You brought this up and I agreed with you..
So why this stupid question? YAHWEH BROUGHT FORTH THE SON,GENERATED THE SON BUT YAHWEH DID NOT CREATE THE SON.
and i am said to miss the point totally...
You see guys what he is doing? Because of proving a stupid point he clearly denies the teachings of his organization by refusing to aknowledge that Jesus is the Begotten Son of God. Because if he did that it shows Jesus is not an angel hence proving to the whole world that his organization is false and makes mockery out of them and himself. He choose to believe a lie than accept the truth.
He has also failed to comment on when I challenge him to show me where Jesus said He was the Son Of God. He showed that he was basing his argument on an ASSUMPTION..
He is also saying Jesus wasn't a perfect Human being and that Yahweh had sexual intercourse with himself to bring forth the Son.
SHAME ON YOU BARRISTTER07
All points noted, you clearly have the upper hand. Detailed and masterfully executed. I am quite busy to fully comment, but will surely do. It's quite obvious barrister is struggling and isnt fully conversant with his doctrine. Your organisation clearly said Jesus is the Begotten Son of God. It's striking why you continue to deny that. But just try to reduce your insults @zodiakzax, points will still be made and understood without the verbal assault. Remember we are reading.
You have obviously failed to address my points, so let me put it back so you can drink water and read them again. Obviously your head is aching from reading so take a deep breath and read again.. but before that let me answer as I am good at reading your posts and carefully answering everything you throw at me.
In the likeness of men? You said plural,
Well As block headed as you are, if men isn't referring to mankind or human being then I will be as foolish and block headed as you are to also say Adam wasn't alone in the garden, He was with Eve two perfect human beings, so plural works for me..
Oooooo block headed JW will then say because they said men it's a male figure and not female. that's how silly you sound..anyways
NIV Phil 2:7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
Phil 2:7
Good News Translation Instead of this, of his own free will he gave up all he had, and took the nature of a servant. He became like a human being and appeared in human likeness
So there we have it, likeness of men is indeed human beings. Be careful how your answer bruv, you might just insult your NWT. Just giving you heads up
Now you asked
Jesus said NOBODY knows , Does this not prove holy spirit is not a person ?
If holyspirit is a person, abeg why didn't it know .? Why would Jesus said NOBODY except the father ?
As busy as I was I took my time to explain thinking perhaps he will understand, or perhaps he will see his flaws but He stupidly ignores my statements and asks a question I have already answered. Seems you want me to say something that isn't there. Well for the sake of my readers let me post my answer here again
You asked a "million in one Question" that did the Spirit Know, I pointed out to you that Yes He did because He knows the thoughts of God....
Let me Ellaborate this very well to your block headed level
For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 2:11 NIV
Point A. Who knows your thoughts? Answer: No one except Your Spirit So apact from your Spirit no one knows your thoughts. Your Spirit Knows EVERYTHING ABOUT YOU
Point B. Who knows God's thoughts? Answer: No one except the Spirit of God
So apact from God's Spirit no one knows His thoughts. GOD'S Spirit Knows EVERYTHING ABOUT HIM including the time.
You asked: If holyspirit is a person, abeg why didn't it know .? Why would Jesus said NOBODY except the father ?
My answer:
To further continue your stupidity after rejecting the Word of God, the verse that says the Spirit Knows the thoughts of God hence knowing the time, you continued by saying Christ said no one knows except the Father.
Now get this The Holy Spirit Hasn't been fully sent to the world yet, He was with the Father and as such one with the Father. The Spirit of God is the same as Him and that was why Paul said who knoweth the thoughts of a man except the Spirit of man within him.. Likewise The Spirit of God that was within God, who wasn't yet made Manifest to the Church was and is one with God...
The Holy Spirit was sent to us and was made Manifest to the Church , He is the allos parakletos (John 14:16) meaning ‘another of the same kind’ as Christ, in contrast to ‘heteros’ meaning ‘another of a different kind’. So Jesus after leaving sent us the Holy Spirit. So the Spirit who wasnt fully made manifest could not have been mentioned.
So the Holy Spirit took over COMPLETELY AS THE THIRD PERSON OF THE TRINITY WHEN JESUS SENT HIM. SO JESUS COULD NOT HAVE INCLUDED HIM BECAUSE HE WAS THE SAME GOD HE WAS REFERRING TO AS KNOWING THE TIME.
Now
YOU CLAIM JESUS DIDNT KNOW THE TIME EVEN AFTER RESURRECTION
I asked if He said He didn't know? And I quoted the verse you cited
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. Acts 1:6-7 KJV
JESUS NEVER said [b]it is not for you and I [/b]to know the times or the seasons which the Father has put in His own Power but rather He said it is not for YOU to know....
When asked the same Question before the resurrection Jesus clearly says He doesnt know, why didn't he say the same?
JESUS NEVER CLAIMED HE DIDNT KNOW FROM THE VERSE ABOVE HE ONLY SAID IT WAS IN THE FATHERS OWN POWER.
So you make no sense, common sense and logic tells me that Jesus did not say he didn't know... which you obviously lack..
Now you said
You are feeling the heat , sorry: irrelevant, just a a way to release your pressure
Truth is bitter I guess: well seems you are talking about yourself since you were the one basing your arguments on Assumption.
You again after ignoring the truth if the scriptures and the bible continue to say
"Both Jesus and the angels are termed " Sons of God "
Let me answer you
No Jesus is not termed son of God He is the begotten Son of God.
I proved it you, which you pushed aside, ignored scripture and still hold on to your fallacy, what does it say about you? You are so brain washed that when exposed to the truth, you prefer to still hold on and sleep in your falsehood. it's sad,very sad, you go to the extent of Rejecting scripture just to make a point.
Let me point out what I said
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:5-8 KJV
The writer of Hebrews didn't see it that way, no Angel was begotten of God as a Son. No angel was the Begotten Son of God. If there is kindly show me. Hebrews is clear that THE SON IS NOT AN ANGEL AND THAT THE SON IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN ONE. PERIOD UNLESS YOU DISAGREE WITH THE WRITER HENCE DISAGREEING WITH THR SCRIPTURE I said No angel is the begotten Son of God. You keep on saying Angels are sons of God, that is not the point, the point is NO ANGEL IS THE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
So why do you continue to make a fool out of yourself when clearly you cannot show where angels are the begotten sons of God.
I pointed out to you that Jesus was not begotten when He became a man but was begotten before he walked the Earth
New American Standard Bible John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him
You have failed to see the verse and to akmowledge it.
Your question:
Why? They are all created. Unless you mean angels are not created.
Answer: irrelevant, because Jesus is the Begotten Son hence was begotten not created.. stupid question.. I being even stupid answering you...
Also,
You asked a silly question that who were the fellows referred to in heb 2:9,
I answered
There were no fellows when Father Brought forth the Son, when the Son was begotten nothing was present, no creation was present, infact it was through the Son that All things were created. So where were the fellows then?
You see how stupidity leads You to ask foolish questions..
And from all verses and scripture I stated
So yes angels are the sons of God BUT NO ANGEL IS THE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. PERIOD.
YOU OBVIOUSLY IGNORED TO TALK ABOUT IT SO I ASSUME YOUR QUESTION WAS STUPID AND SHOULD NOT BE REPEATED AGAIN.
Now on our Topic which you completely ignored to answer
JESUS NEVER said he was the Son of God when He walked this earth.
Good, now you understand my question after so long,
You run back to revelation because You clearly can't answer John 10 which you were so sure of since we started this argument, Now evident you are doubting yourself, let me tell this, we know what we talk of and what claims we make. You obviously don't know what you talk of.
I pointed out to you that Jesus Never said He was the Son of God when He walked the Earth. After resurrection Jesus says He's the Son of God and not only that, He said He's the first and the last, Alpha and Omega, beginning and the End, the source of God's creation, Jesus now assumes His position as God. On Earth he did not equal Himself to God but He humbled himself.
I asked you where He made that statement
Your answer: John said there many things he did that were not on record.
So now you assumed He said it, you are arguing based on Assumption now , well since it's not in OUR SCRIPTURE THAT HE SAID THAT then it cannot be proven hence your answer makes no sense.
MR ASSUMPTION WHY DIDNT YOU TALK ABOUT THIS?
Now more interesting stuffs:
You said:
" Begotten ". Doesnt change this fact . Abraham has many other Sons as well , but only Isaac was regarded as begotten , it never means Isaac was NOT procreated by sexual intercourse like all other sons.
Good now we both agree on something, that is Isaac was not the only Son of Abraham. Now let me break it down for you
You claim " Begotten ". Doesnt change this fact . Abraham has many other Sons as well , but only Isaac was regarded as begotten". I accept so Why was Isaac the begotten Son even though He wasnt the only Son? By the way (Here you answer your self, so even though the angels are called Sons of God, Jesus is called the begotten Son of God just as isaac was Abrahams begotten even though He had other Sons.)
You said, "it never means Isaac was NOT procreated by sexual intercourse like all other sons": Well Isaac was indeed procreated by sexual intercourse just like the other Sons i never doubted that... what I said was ABRAHAM DID NOT CREATE ISAAC.
But,
Here is the problem, Yahweh didnt have many sons and He chose one as the begotten, going according to your own demonic doctrines you claim God created other things Including Angels through Jesus the "Archangel Michael" ( ) So from your own doctrine Jesus Michael was the only son present with God, no other being was created, Jesus Michael was his unique Son, begotten son, yet created, and after Jesus Michael God created the other angels through Jesus Michael who was also an angel. Hope I'm making sense, honestly I'm confused myself, but let's go on, so according to your own doctrine Jesus Michael wasn't selected among the other Sons because no other creation was present.... so why did you cite that example to support your claim when the analogy goes against your very beliefs....
New American Standard Bible John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him
Now getting back into my senses, it is evident from scripture above that, Jesus was begotten of God before creation, Yahweh brought forth the Son, Yahweh generated the Son. But Yahweh did not create the Son. I made this quite clear in my long statement. But obviously Barristter07 failed to akmowledge it as he's doing to scripture itself.
Again false Jw continues
The question I asked about How Yahweh created Abraham wasn't foolish, its because you saw it would wound you .
Same person claiming Isaac isn't created by could Claim Abraham is a created being. , Did Terah Create Abraham or Beget him ? If he was begotten too, why do you Still say Abraham was Created? !!!
And Terah beget Abraham, well Adam also beget Seth, Seth beget Enos, and beget sons and daughters, have you seen they beget sons and daughters?
Was Abraham the begotten son of Terrah? No .... this is how foolish you've become bro... just because King James has been written in Primitive old English and uses the word beget so you assume it's referring to the Begotten Son as used with Isaac and Jesus.... let's just follow your stupidity,.let's assume All of Adam's sons and generation was begotten, Since Adam was a created being, all man kind is created. Also it was humans that begot them not God and since all humans are created beings all sons begotten by these humans are created BY God.
Well if you were reading carefully I said Isaac wasn't created by ABRAHAM not by Yahweh, here is what I said
About Abraham and his begotten son Isaac,
I said
Monogenes : begotten
Beget is to procreate or generate
Isaac was Abrahams begotten Son, Abraham brought forth Isaac, Abraham generated Isaac. He asks how did Abraham beget Isaac, My answer
through sexual intercourse of course, and I said BUT ABRAHAM DID NOT CREATE ISAAC.
LIKEWISE GOD BROUGHT FORTH THE SON, GENERATED THE SON, BEGET THE SON. GOD DID NOT CREATE THE SON, JUST LIKE ABRAHAM DID NOT CREATE ISAAC EVEN THOUGH ISAAC WAS HIS BEGOTTEN SON.
Ignoring that He asked a rather stupid and irrelevant question, is Isaac created?
To answer that:
Isaac was Abraham's begotten Son and not Yahweh's begotten Son, Abraham brought forth Isaac, Abraham generated Isaac. ABRAHAM DID NOT CREATE ISAAC. YAHWEH CREATED ABRAHAM SO YES YAHWEH CREATED ISAAC. Using the same analogy
GOD BROUGHT FORTH THE SON, GENERATED THE SON, BEGET THE SON. GOD DID NOT CREATE THE SON.YAHWEH IS NOT CREATED SO THE SON CANNOT BE CREATED.
So I've pointed out that since Isaac was Abraham's begotten and not Yahweh's he is a created being since Abraham his father is created but Jesus was the begotten Son of Yahweh not Abraham and since Yahweh is not created the Son cannot be created
He failed to read and get sense so he keeps making a fool.out of himself. To my readers, Since I don't want to quote out of context and to expose the lies if these false Christians, my statements are quite lengthy so kindly bare with me..
A lengthy one but I'm taking my time to read and compare your statements to that of Barristter07's. Will comment when done.
The bible clearly says Jesus is God in John 1:1, "..And the Word was God". that should settle everything. But it amuses me why you people still debate on this issue.
brocab: Who are you? Are you a listener-learning, then stay around and enjoy the scenes, if so join with us and learn better...
I'm a new comer, new to this place actually but my interest on your discussion became peeked high when,after I typed the words trinity, saw your thread with over 100 replies and responds. Spent some few hours catching up on the latest. Well I'm more of a learner and to ascertain truth for myself I have to be neutral and open minded to understand your remarks. I am on a quest to see if God does exist or not.
Christianity Etc › Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: 17 Facts People Should Know About Them by Gruni1234: 12:46am On Dec 15, 2018
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Can u see you are making a lost case . since angels are called Yahweh , the Triune God is False , why not add this Angels to the league of persons in a God ?
