NNTR:
haddeylium, you're older today than yesterday, but younger than tomorrow, loll.
I hope your birthday is as special as you are.
I used to be a fan, but I am now an air conditioner, loll, pray that you too, be one
Wish you a spectacular celebration and a fabulous new year ahead.
Happy Birthday!

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

Oh! I'm sorry, I didn't notice this. Thank you for the gesture but I don't celebrate my birthdays.
Thanks for your time

jesusjnr2020:
So what's the difference between the spirit that told you Jehovah Witnesses that Jesus was Angel Micheal and the one that spoke to this false prophet?

Good morning.
I've never claimed hearing from the holyspirit. All my beliefs are wholly based on the bible while citing the scriptures appropriately. It's you and this your protestant brother that claimed hearing a contrasting whispering from this Spirit.
I respect that infact.

Hmnnn...
Every business that wants to survive has to study their market and abd the demand of their customers.
Do you think people wants to listen to someone speak against their lifestyle today?
Any preacher that doesn't want to lose his charisma and his congregation has to keep with this trend.
From offering bread and juices, inviting comedians and visiting celebrities. That's the market demand now

All these protestant churches sha
Everybody with own personal holyspirit whispering to them

Rosement:

Janosky, one of your brother in faith did the same thing you are complaining about to me, he even insulted my doctrine. I don't know if you are like him because I have never had any discussion with you. Most people are not wicked or against you like you think. Some people might just be reciprocating what your brothers in faith does to others on you. Do on to others, what you want to be done unto you.

I'm so sorry to hear that. That's just an imperfect human nature. I do my very best to be kind even to those who disrespect me, but I won't lie to you I've failed to do so more than my share of time. I'm still working on it too.
Truthfully, Disagreement give me opportunity to teach and learn. Even if we don't convince eachother, I will learn how other people view things from their own which will help in communication in future.

But one thing is that there's a difference between DISAGREEMENT and DISRESPECT.

There is a difference between “I’m afraid I don’t agree with that” and “You are a Satanic cult that have no idea about the Bible!!!

If someone use that second phrase with me, I might stop being kind and gets defensive. Nobody likes to to be disrespected just as you don't.

Jesus did say to “turn the other cheek” but he also recommended “shaking the dust off your feet” if you are met with resistance. There’s a balance to be found there between not getting overly offended and not being a punching bag for people who just are trying to provoke you.

Have a terrific day Rose

tctrills:

I think you are finally understanding. We both agree that our bodies need to be transformed. hence at the resurrection, we get a transformed body just like Jesus. It's a body that can't die again, It's incorruptible and spiritual like the body of our Heavenly father. Remember the righteous are promised all that the father has. This includes the kind of body he has.
verse 45... spells it clearly. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. like Christ, every righteous follower would also inherit a quickening spirit. If you want to know the final state of the righteous, look up to Christ. This would help you understand what it means to be created in God's Image Every human has the potential to become like God. First, we have a spirit then a physical body, finally, our physical body becomes spiritual and incorruptible. That is what we learn from the scriptures.

Our heavenly father does not possess a physical body? If it's going to be like his, do you think the body is going to be physical or Spirit own?

Don't mistake it also, it's physical body God's word says it's corruptible

tctrills:
Of course the spirits of Adam, you, and me have long existed before the earth was created.

Hmnnn..... interesting
I'm learning new things everyday. Let me bookmark this
If I understand you very well, you mean Hyman's life didn't begin or was CREATED in the garden of Eden ?

Genesis 1:27. “God proceeded to create the man in his image,

NNTR:
I am thinking how many times, do you need being told that, the dead are not conscious of what happens on the other side, which is the land of the living and so they know nothing in Sheol about outside of it. Smh.

This why I encourage people to use and combine different translation. It does help.
Don't misunderstood me. Let's take it a step at a time
We've both established from the bible that the destination of the dead is Sheol(Grave) which you called 'The land of the dead right?
God's word says 'There's nothing like being conscious or knowing anything in that realm of dead' (Eccl 9:10) which corroborate another verse that says 'Someone's thought perish the day he die'

If you knew that, they why ask a lame question? Getting a lame answer, in return back, sure with it, had your faculties reset back to Manufacturer's default proper settings, loll

I can recall I told you that I'm not so fluent with this language. How would I have known that you're playing around with words with the direct question I asked?
We've been having an healthy conversation all along. I've tried so much to be respectful and I don't appreciate this tone. I'm going to halt this conversation if it continues.

Thanks for your time

NNTR:
I

The alive are conscious in the land of the living, and the dead are conscious in the land of the dead. They are set apart from each other and on top, are only aware of and responsive to what's going on in their current surroundings. The dead in Sheol aka the ream of the dead, aka the land of the dead have no perception of what's happening on earth in the land of the living and vice versa

Nice try but I don't think the bible agree with this .
Have you considered Ecclesiastes 9:10

All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheʹol, the place to which you are going.

10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest.(ASV)

God's word says the dead are not conscious and no nothing in Sheol or (Your land of the dead)
What do you think?

Yes I do know that Adam did exist somewhere before he was created. loll.

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your brow,
you will produce food to eat
until you return to the ground,
because you were taken from it.
You are dust, and you will return to dust.
OK. Hey, it doesnt get simpler and more concise, an answer, that what from Genesis 3:19 there above points to, loll.

Really? Do you understand the meaning of create to start with?
This is the dictionary meaning
Create: To bring into existence out of nothing, without the prior existence of the materials or elements used.
How can someone existing somewhere before be created?

'You are dust, and you will return to dust'

Adam did not exist before he was created . Therefore, when God said that Adam would return to the dust, He meant that Adam would return to a state of nonexistence. Adam would be as lifeless as the dust from which he was made.

Thanks for your time

tctrills:

Yes, Adam was a spirit with God like all of us before our life on earth.
Ephesians 1:4-6

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Like Christ, all spirit children of God existed before even the creation of the world.

Hebrews 12:9

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? ( He is the father of our spirits hence Christ is our brother or like the bible Romans 8:17 put it, we are heirs of God and coheirs with Christ Christ.
again the bible teaches that all men are offsprings of God Acts 17:29. Our bodies are not offsprings of God. Its our spirits that spring from God.
Remember, we are created in the image of the father, we look like him and we have the potential to be just as he is. that is his promise to them that overcome.

Simply, you mean Adam has been existing before he was created?

tctrills:
This is clearly your opinion, at no point in the scriptures were we taught that the spirit of man is thoughtless.
let's look at a few scriptures.
Matthew 26:41

41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

If you actually get to read some parts of the articles you posted earlier, we won't be having this conversation.

Like the part i highlighted

tctrills:

The meaning of the Hebrew word ruach is "breath," or "wind," or "spirit." In Scripture, the word is applied both to human beings and to God. Depending on the context[b], ruach can be talking about a person's emotional state of being, or [/b]their soul or spirit, and is sometimes used as an idiom, as in "a mere breath."

Remember 'Rauch is polysemic
It's also defined impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and that causes him to say and do things in a certain way.
You've not answered the question here anyway

tctrills:

I admit you have a very strong point, let me study more and get back to you.
But then we learn that the faithful followers of Christ would inherent heaven.

I'll appreciate that you do because it's very vital in our discuss. I'm here if you want to source for my inputs

tctrills:

No I am not saying he did not did, I am saying he resurrected. His spirit reunited with his body. Hence, his body was no longer in the tomb.
The kingdom of heaven would be inherited by resurrected men and women.

Do you understand the meaning of sacrifice or you want it spelt out for you?
When you made 'sacrifice giving' donations in your churches, do you take it back?
What Jesus did was a replica of burnt offering Israelites made(Hebrews 10:8–10) and they don't take back their offering. Jesus offered his human body and life, do you think he'll take it back?

Heb 10:10 By God’s will we have been sanctified once and for all through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus, the Messiah.

The answer to your flesh and blood question is found in verse 44 of that same 1 corinthians.
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
When we resurrect, our bodies would be transformed and made fit for the kingdom.
Read also .42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
So our bodies would no longer be corruptible, it would be spiritual like that of Christ and his father

Are you sure you read these verses very well before posting?
What makes you think the incorruptible body is the natural (physical) human body?
Let me simplified those verses for you
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body
It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Do you get the sequence now?
The natural(or physical body) is the corruptible one while the spirit (spiritual body) is incorruptible one
Do you think Jesus resurrected with the human corruptible body now?

Crown it with verse 45 of that chapter
The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Jesus] was made a quickening [life giving] spirit.

NNTR:
1 Corinthians 15:51-53


Glorified bodies are a necessity for resurrection isnt it?
If not then what does resurrection mean for decomposed bodies then, erhn?
Of course resurrection will happen at the sound of the trumpet

Bolden.
My English is not so fluent but I know 'will' refers to something to happen at the future?
Has that resurrection you mentioned here occur?
Has the trumpet been blown?

I typed, parables are just like jokes. I never said that parables are jokes
Exactly that parables are allegory. On every parable you ride on to a truth of something(s).
So, I repeat, parables are just like jokes and just because either dont necessarily need to be taken literally, it doesnt mean that parables or even jokes dont have rings of truth and reality in them.
So, in answering your question, I repeat, there is a time, there's a point, there are parts when and when not to take parable literally, loll.

Bolden.
Exactly! If they are an allegory, they're not meant to be taken literally.
Do you want to know why?

NNTR:
Ecclesiastes 9:5, is telling you that the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all that happens in the land of the living

Hmnnn.... Interesting.
The bible says the dead are going to Sheol...is that where you call the 'Land of the dead' where they are conscious?

You didnt read this above then, before asking, if I think a soul can die?

I don't know since it wasn't a reply to me. Atleast we have a common ground here
Do you think Adam was existing somewhere before he was created?
Be simple and concise with your answer pls

haddeylium:
People in general connect the word “prophet” with predictions of the future. Though prophets in the Bible usually proclaimed predictions about the future, the Scriptural definition of a prophet is wider:
In Bible times, prophet is a person who receives specific messages . they do not do that under their own initiative.

Today the organisation of Jehovah’s Witnesses act like a prophet in that we proclaim an old message, one that was written down in the pages of the Bible. We spread nothing new.

We have never made any false predictions.What we have been guilty of is misunderstanding some of the prophecies that relate to the “end times”.
Afterall, we never claimed that our researches are infallible. Contrary to many religions, we are prepared to change if we find out we were incorrect.

You can visit Jw.org for more information.
Use the keyword; Bible prophesy

My Post is for those who have deep interest in Bible and what it really teaches and It is not meant to challenge or dispute any personal belief and nor will I debate such. if your comments/questions are civil, I'll reply them'.


Have a great day

NNTR:
Ephesians 5:14
Therefore it says:
"Awake you, the one sleeping, and rise up out from the dead,
and Christ will shine upon you."

The dead are conscious in their present surrounding, which is the realm of the dead, they lose all contacts, connection and consciousness with other surrounding, especially that of the realm or land of the living

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all...
Do you see how clearly your view of the condition of the dead is in contrast with God's word?

Do you think a soul can die?

tctrills:

2 things here,
1st, The resurrected Christ clearly told his followers that he was not a spirit. Remember, he asked them to touch him. I don't think he was lying or trying to deceive them.
2nd. If you say that only spirit would inherit God's kingdom, then you automatically agree that man is a spirit. Because the kingdom of God would be inherited by righteous men. Hence, you seem to agree that man is a spirit without knowing.

Are you saying Jesus did not die? That he shed his skin?

Not me, that's what the bible says.
'Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven'
What are your thoughts?

tctrills:

Enoch and Elijah are in heaven according to the bible.

Hmnnn... interesting
Do you think Jesus is lying when he said :
"No man has ascended into heaven.” (John 3:​13)
?

tctrills:

Well, Genesis never explained what that breath was made up of. Genesis never said it was a lifeless or thoughless breath. So why conclude. On the other hand, many verses in the bible clearly teach that the spirit of man is intelligent and that God is the father of our spirits.
Genesis never explained what consist of the breath of life, we learn that from other verses.

Exactly! Remember in our discussion that not everything called the spirit has a mind of its own. Just like wind is called.
Also, do you consider the account of man creation in Gen 2:7?
What make a living or conscious person is;
The combination of Dust and breathe of life
Do you think there's already a conscious being somewhere before the two combined?

[quote author=NNTR post=108841956]Mutual friend you mean, loll.

John 5:28-29
28Do not be surprised at this; for a time is coming when all those who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and they will come out--those who did good things [will come out] to a resurrection of [new] life,
but those who did evil things [will come out] to a resurrection of judgment [that is, to be sentenced].
Loads of purposes, but first, like to make, a bit of correction and set the record straight, which is, people are translated to Paradise aka Eden, meaning they are moved there. Now, its only at the sound of the trumpet, that people are resurrected meaning, people come back to life, with connection to realm of the living and also with, regained consciousness with the land of the living, loll.
Another of reason, for resurrection, is an acquisition of a glorified body. Remember that the other old body, had disintegrated into becoming dust, loll, hence the need for another one, loll.

I like this scripture you quoted a lot but you've not answered the question.
Are you implying that the resurrection Jesus mentioned to occur 'at a time in the future' has already occur?
I'll appreciate a concise and straightforward answers

Parables are just like jokes. Just because they both arent in certain aspect not to be taken literally, it doesnt mean that the parable or even joke doesnt have rings of truth and reality in them.
So, in answering your question, there is a time, there's a point, there are parts when and when not to take parable literally, loll.

Actually, parables are not jokes. They're allegory and fictitious illustration. I'll ask again.
Are parables meant to be taken literally?

To start with hell, really isnt a Jewish word nor a Jewish concept. In fact, hell aka hades and even aka tartarus are Greek, originating from Greek mythology to be precise. Hades, combinely is both the name of the Greek god of the underworld and place of abode for the wicked souls, loll.

Yeah. You're right. Infact Hell is an English word translated from the Hebrew word 'Sheol' and Greek word 'Hades'
So, I can't find anywhere in the bible where Hell is said to divided into section. I'll appreciate it if you show me

NNTR:
My brother, I am sure you are aware that Sheol aka the grave comprises of two section with a dividing gulf separating them each sections. Right?

Now watch this. The section where the righteous end up at, is whats called Abraham's bosom, the other section is the place, where other people like, the rich man, end up at. Listen to this. The thief on the right side of Jesus would have ended up in Abraham's bosom, if Jesus hadn't promised him that on that same day, it will be paradise that they will both meet up at.

Good God. Good, good God. Praise God Hallelujah. Eden, God's paradise. The world's a circle. Life is a circle. Jesus Christ, God Incarnate circled and cycled back to the beginning, back to Eden, back to God's paradise, God's paradise is shortened simply as paradise, the original garden home of Adam and Eve, loll.

Listen to this. After the victory on the cross at Calvary, all saints after death, end up in paradise and not anymore, Abraham's bosom, loll.

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

Let me ask you the question I asked your friend.
what would be the purpose of the resurrection on the last day if people were already resurrected to paradise?
Do you think parables are to be taken literally?

Really? This is new to me. I don't know Hell is divided into section

tctrills:

It doesn't it's your own opinion not the bible. If you read your bible, you would learn that the spirit of man is not a mindless force. Let me know if you need verses form the bible to prove that.

Let me return you back to Gen 2:7. I didn't write it .
Two things make up a living and conscious person(soul)
Dust and Breathe of life(or spirit (not spirit being)
So simple.
Unless you want to argue with God's word that there's already a conscious person before God's combines the two
Try

tctrills:

When Christ died his spirit lived on remember. 1 Peter 3. 19 -21 tells of some of his activities. Preaching to other dead spirits in prison. This is very similar to the parable he told of lazarus and the rich man.
Because of Christ action the gospel is preached to the dead.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit

Infact, I really like the fact that quoted this particular verse.

Remember that Jesus had a prehuman existence as a spirit son of God ? (John 1:1; Col. 1:15-17). Then he was a invisible, immaterial spirit being just as his father .
For his ransom sacrifice, he came as a Man (with flesh and blood). (Philippians 2:. Now, he's a physical being. He sacrificed his life and died and unconscious for 3 days .

Now, to the bible verse you quoted.

1 Pet. 3:18, RS: “Christ also died for sins once for all, . . . being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit
He was put to death as a human(with flesh and blood) for the ransom sacrifice but was raised a spirit being after 3days .
You can compare it with (1 Corinthians 15:44)
-It is sown(buried) a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body-
He was buried as a human and raised as a spirit to gain entry into heaven. Afterall, God's word says flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom

tctrills:

But I can, I already presented Zachariah 12.1. That clearly tells us of the creation of our spirits. Let me know if that isn't enough. I could present more.

Together with Gen 2:7 shows that it's mindless lifeforce (or spirit) that animate a dead soul. Even this spirit is the same with animals' own (Eccl 3:19)

tctrills:

So you are saying that there are many translations.. that I agree.. but then you decide to go with one translation over the other with no proof of its correctness just to justify your narrative?

Ofcourse! Bible translator with religious dogma of going straight to heaven after death will rendered the translation you chose that way.

But does it answer your question here?

Christ told the thief on the cross 'today, you would be with me in paradise. We know the thief died. his body did not go to paradise. We know Christ was not lying

This is not a matter of following crowd but knowing and agreeing with what the bible really teaches

tctrills:

Are you trying to rewrite the bible by moving a comma, Luke 23.43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Please let's not rewrite the holy scripture

Even though this is not the discuss of this thread.
But this error, intended or not, has confused people for thousands of years.
Have you heard others say after a person dies he/she is in heaven now? Thinking that a person dies and goes right to heaven.
So what would be the purpose of the resurrection on the last day if people were already resurrected?
Having the wrong idea of the resurrection breed this
.One of the requirements for eternal life is knowledge of Jehovah and Jesus. (John 17:3)

tctrills:

Are you trying to rewrite the bible by moving a comma, Luke 23.43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Please let's not rewrite the holy scripture

You that translation to explain your quote here

Christ told the thief on the cross 'today, you would be with me in paradise. We know the thief died. his body did not go to paradise. We know Christ was not lying

Rewrite the bible?
When I said you need a more deligent and extensive study, I meant it.
Festofost, the Bible text had no punctuation marks as we know them today, so the translators into English are the ones who decide where to put quotation marks, dashes, commas, and fullstops/periods based on their own discretion.

What we say about Luke 23:43 is that some translators put the comma in the wrong place, changing the meaning of what Jesus was saying.

Jesus was not saying “You will be with me today” because that day Jesus ended up in the grave, not in any Paradise as you rightly said

Jesus meant he was promising the man “today”- that very day- that one day in the future that man would be resurrected to live in Paradise.

Putting the comma in the correct place (after the word “today”) correctly conveys what Jesus meant and is therefore the more accurate translation.

Thanks for your time

tctrills:

I actually agree with you. Man, Jesus Christ and God the Father are all firstly spirit beings

Don't you see how contradictory this is, Seems you don't understand what spirit is in this context .

tctrills:

Man like Christ was first a spirit. Our spirits were with God. We are his spirit Children just like Christ but Christmas is the first born. The rest of us came after. When the bible talks of spirits in prison, it is talking about the spirits of man.
So if God is a spurit, man too is a spirit

I respect your personal opinion even though you can support it with the scriptures

tctrills:
there are similarities but the difference is clear.

So, what about you? What's your view of this?

NNTR:
Are you setting the questions or it's me?
If both the two questions were one, then why did I bother issuing two questions. Smh, pfft, loll.
Please reattempt answering the two questions separately and using A/ and B/ so that relied answers can be easy to tell apart.

Can you restructure your part A question? Maybe I missed out something cos' I'm sure I answered it.

Please note in the second question the asks that: at what point did the man become a living soul and why at that particular point did the man become a living soul? Thanks.

Are you sure your read my Bible based answers reply to this earlier?

Slowly'
First Jehovah made a human body. But it was lifeless and a dead soul.
Then, he continue to blast a breathe of life(or spirit) which was sustain with breathing. At they point, Man became a living soul