₦airaland Forum

What is special about the act of resurrection? This is Matthew 27: 49-55.

49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:


So upon Jesus's dead, many saints arose from the dead and went into the city where they were seen by many.

The question is; What became of these saints?

1) Did they also rise into heaven, like Jesus is supposed to have ascended into heaven?

2) Did they die a second time and are now buried somewhere in Israel/Palestine?

3) What sort of body do risen saints possess - flesh and blood like you and me?

4) Did they lead a "normal" life - got married, had children and talked to one and all about their experience of the "other" world?

The early Christians were the real plagiarist. Check this out https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113860.0.html

Pastor AIO:
I believe that Jesus instructed one particular individual to sell all that he has and follow him. Why? I don't know. But possibly Jesus saw his clinging to his possessions as been his greatest stumbling block.

By follow him, I don't think Jesus meant that we should seek where he is and then start to walk behind him following him everywhere. When you 'follow' Jesus quite naturally things will come into your possession and in due course they will slip out of your possession. Nothing can change that. When something belongs (I mean belong in a specialised sense) to one it will be next to impossible for that person to throw that thing away.

However clinging on to things. Status, goods, people. The problem with that is that the clinging distracts you from Christ. The two are mutually exclusive. You can either cling to christ or cling to material things. It's not the material things in themselves that distract you from Christ but the clinging to them.

Thankx. I get what you mean and understand your distinction about "material" and the clinging onto them.

What do you think a first century audience of Jesus might have understood by Luke 14:33? There is nowhere in Jesus' teachings in the present context where he makes the distinction clear and cautious about misunderstanding the subtle undertones.

In the context of his other utterances, one can easily deduce that he had a particular strong abhorence of wealth, as in the following;

1) It is easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of god.

2) In the "parable" of Lazarus, the rich man and Abraham, the rich man is presented as going to hell for no other reason than for being rich. The poor man Lazarus goes to heaven for being poor. No other character traits of Lazarus and the rich man are presented other than their penury and wealth.

Pastor AIO:
He means that Discipleship, that is the discipline of practicing christianity involves learning to detach yourself from material possessions and social status and all the stuff that we cling on to and take up so much of our energy but is ultimately futile. All those desire that actually enslave us.

"Perform all thy actions with mind concentrated on the divine, renouncing attachment and looking upon success and failure with an equal eye. Spirituality implies equanimity."

Lord Shri Krishna

Would be interesting to know how you derive this meaning from the very simple and clear text of Luke 14: 33. Did Jesus not order prospective followers to sell all their belongings and give the money to the poor and following him?

So what is more in keeping with the spirit of Luke 14: 33?

1) The injunction to sell all ones belongings and follow him
2) To become detached from ones possessions and ambitions.


BTW, what is wrong with the direct literal understanding of Luke 14: 33? Why does it need re-interpreting?

Pastor AIO:
My Faith is not based on Text but on Experience!

Which of the following did you experience? And did the experience inform you about the truth or otherwise of these events?

1) The creation as narrated in Genesis
2) The Noah Flood
3) The near-sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham
4) The virgin birth of Jesus
5) The trinity
6) Resurrection

How did you experience these foundational tenets of Christianity? Is your experience purely subjective?

Luke 14: 33 has Jesus saying the following;

So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

What did Jesus mean? To be his disciple, is one supposed to forsake one's family, career, properties, ambitions, etc, etc. What does "all that he hath" mean? Or should this only apply to men?

did any real miracles happen today?

would the real lazarus, please stand up, please stand up, please stand up?

In the New Testament, the name Lazarus appears in connection with two narratives;

1) the "parable" of Lazarus, Abraham and the Rich man, (Luke 16)
2) the raising of the dead man, Lazarus (John 11)

Many Christian would already be familiar with both account, however, the details are given below.

A number of questions immediately arise, the main one of which is;

Is the individual identified as Lazarus the same person?

If it is the same individual, which of the two events above occurred first? In fact, is event (1) a real event or just a parable, given Jesus was in the habit of speaking in parables?


[table]
[tr][td]Luke 16, Lazarus, the Rich man and Abraham[/td][td] John 11, Raising of Lazarus[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

2And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.

3Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.

4I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.

5So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord?

6And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty.

7Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore.

8And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

9And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.

10He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

11If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?

12And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?

13No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

14And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

15And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

16The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.[/td]


[td]
1Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair. 3So the sisters sent word to Jesus, "Lord, the one you love is sick."

4When he heard this, Jesus said, "This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God's glory so that God's Son may be glorified through it." 5Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6Yet when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days.

7Then he said to his disciples, "Let us go back to Judea."

8"But Rabbi," they said, "a short while ago the Jews tried to stone you, and yet you are going back there?"

9Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours of daylight? A man who walks by day will not stumble, for he sees by this world's light. 10It is when he walks by night that he stumbles, for he has no light."

11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

12His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

14So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead, 15and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him."

16Then Thomas (called Didymus) said to the rest of the disciples, "Let us also go, that we may die with him."
Jesus Comforts the Sisters
17On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18Bethany was less than two miles[a] from Jerusalem, 19and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.

21"Lord," Martha said to Jesus, "if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask."

23Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."

24Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

27"Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ,[b] the Son of God, who was to come into the world."

28And after she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside. "The Teacher is here," she said, "and is asking for you." 29When Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him. 30Now Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him. 31When the Jews who had been with Mary in the house, comforting her, noticed how quickly she got up and went out, they followed her, supposing she was going to the tomb to mourn there.

32When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, "Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died."

33When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. 34"Where have you laid him?" he asked.
"Come and see, Lord," they replied.

35Jesus wept.

36Then the Jews said, "See how he loved him!"

37But some of them said, "Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?"


38Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39"Take away the stone," he said.
"But, Lord," said Martha, the sister of the dead man, "by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days."

40Then Jesus said, "Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?"

41So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me."

43When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" 44The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go."
The Plot to Kill Jesus
45Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, put their faith in him. 46But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin.

"What are we accomplishing?" they asked. "Here is this man performing many miraculous signs. 48If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our place[c] and our nation."

49Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, "You know nothing at all! 50You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish."

51He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one. 53So from that day on they plotted to take his life.

54Therefore Jesus no longer moved about publicly among the Jews. Instead he withdrew to a region near the desert, to a village called Ephraim, where he stayed with his disciples.

55When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, many went up from the country to Jerusalem for their ceremonial cleansing before the Passover. 56They kept looking for Jesus, and as they stood in the temple area they asked one another, "What do you think? Isn't he coming to the Feast at all?" 57But the chief priests and Pharisees had given orders that if anyone found out where Jesus was, he should report it so that they might arrest him.[/td][/tr]

[/table]

How beneficial would it be if the world were to wake one morning and find the HIV virus, ebola virus, tuberculosis, leprosy, cancers, etc have been wiped off the face of the earth. Or that the inhospitable deserts of the earth have been turned into lush and fertile lands for crops and animals; or that earthquakes, volcanoes and tornadoes have been summarily consigned into the abyss of the past?

Well all of the above would be extremely beneficial to the human condition if these changes were to happen permanently. In fact, every single one of these could be described as a veritable "miracle" in its own right.

The theistic community promotes a very different notion of miracle, understood to be a condition which contravenes the natural laws, brought about by the direct intervention of their respective deity. Of what use are these types of miracles? Did any of the miracles attributed to Jesus leave any permanent lasting effects that could be enjoyed today? Did Jesus

1) Permanently eradicate any of the ailments that afflict humankind. He is said to have healed individuals of various ailments, but why did he not just eradicate the ailment. If he had done so, the history and medical books would be saying "that such and such condition was a particularly crippling condition until Jesus eradicated it from the face of the earth". Unfortunately, in all his wisdom, he came and departed without doing any such thing.

2) Did he provide humans with a technology or knowledge to conquer some of the natural challenges that confront us? he is said to have walked on water, but he left behind no hydrodynamic technology useful to us today.

3) Did he conquer famine and starvation. He is said to have fed thousand with only a paltry amount of bread and fish whilst in the regions around him, many would have been starving to dead. Did he leave behind knowledge and technology of dealing with soil erosion, food shortages, failed harvests ?

In fact, none of Jesus' supposed miracles have left a permanent legacy that has advanced and enriched our lives. It is as though he were never on this earth.


All(most) of the miracles attributed to Jesus, then and now, tend to be of the individualistic (i.e., on the human person) and consequently of ephemeral nature. When the human passes away, they take the miracle away with them, thus leaving no trace of the miracle. It would be nice if Jesus had considered performing material and non-personal miracles, such as eradicating diseases, poverty, solved the problem of desertification, soil erosion, permanently calmed the forces of tornadoes, etc. These, truly would have been miracles worthy of a god. Rather than messing about with a few loaves of bread and fishes, turning water into wine, raising the dead, walking on water, calming a rough sea, cursing a fig tree, etc, etc.

There are many today who profess performing miracles in the name of Jesus. Unsurprisingly, non of these latter-day Jesuses are able to perform material non-personal miracles. Or could they? Could they, in the name of Jesus;

1) Command and empty glass to become full of water?

2) Command the total eradication of any of the diseases that afflict us?

3) Move the Himalayas from its present location to a location 1000 miles north?

4) Bring back to life someone who has been dead 1000 years?

Any of these acts, if performed could potentially provide humans with the knowledge to face and tackle some of the formidable challenges that confront us.

Would you join an institution that positively discriminated (discriminates) against certain sectors of society such as discriminating on the basis of race, nationality, gender and sexual orientation?

The thought that the church of Christ of latter Day Saints is making inroads into Africa drives chills down my spine. Have Africans not learnt from the disastrous encounter with the Abrahamic religions of Christianity and Is-lam?

Why is this continent so disposed to soak up any silly old belief system without fully evaluating the tenets of the belief. While the continent is right in the midst of the Abrahamic calamitous obsessions, some elements are finding "spiritual" solace in a religion invented less that 200 years ago in America.

Just as our forefathers uncritically embraced Is-lam and Christianity, so is the present generation equally embracing Mormonism and Scientology. What is happening to the African mind? Are these new converts really this vacuous about the state of reality?




The historical evidence is quite clear and unmistakable, that the Curse of Cain Doctrine was always referred to as "a doctrine of the Church" by Church leaders.

On October 8, 1947, Dr. Lowry Nelson, a Mormon professor at the University of Utah, wrote to The First Presidency and said:

“The attitude of the Church in regard to the Negro makes me very sad.I do not believe God is a racist.” (Mormonism and the Negro, p.28)

The First Presidency wrote back and said:

“We feel very sure that you are aware of the doctrines of the Church. They are either true or not true. Our testimony is that they are true. Under these circumstances we may not permit ourselves to be too much impressed by the reasonings of men, however well founded they may seem to be. We should like to say this to you in all sincerity, that you are too fine a man to permit yourself to be led off from the principles of the Gospel by worldly learning. You have too much of a potentiality for doing good and we therefore prayerfully hope that you can reorient your thinking and bring it in line with the revealed Word of God.” (Mormonism and the Negro, p.28 emphases added)

The First Presidency issued this letter on July 17th, 1947:

“From the days of the Prophet Joseph even until now, it has been the doctrine of the Church, never questioned by any of the Church leaders, that the Negroes are not entitled to the full blessings of the Gospel [i.e. the Priesthood].” (Mormonism and the Negro, p.47 emphases added)

On August 17th, 1951, the First Presidency issued it’s official Statement by The First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on the Negro Question which said in part:

“The attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become Members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the Priesthood at the present time.
***
President Wilford Woodruff made the following statement: ‘The day will come when all that race will be redeemed and possess all the blessings which we now have.’
***
Sometime in God’s eternal plan, the Negro will be given the right to hold the Priesthood. In the meantime, those of that race who receive the testimony of the Restored Gospel may have their family ties protected and other blessings made secure, for in the justice of the Lord they will possess all the blessings to which they are entitled in the eternal plan of Salvation and Exaltation.” (Mormonism and the Negro, pp.16-23 emphases added)

In 1954, Elder Mark E. Peterson, a Mormon apostle, said:

"Think of the Negro, cursed as to the Priesthood. Are we prejudiced against him? Unjustly, sometimes we are accused of having such a prejudice. But what does the mercy of God have for him? This negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in the lineage of Cain with a black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa—if that negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get a celestial resurrection." (Race Problems--As They Affect the Church, August 27, 1954, address at CES convention at Brigham Young University)

In April of 1963, Joseph Fielding Smith (then an apostle and later Church President) wrote the following:

"According to the doctrine of the Church, the Negro, because of some condition of unfaithfulness in the spirit--or pre-existence, was not valiant and hence was not deied the mortal probation, but was denied the blessings of the Priesthood." (JFS Letter to Joseph H. Henderson, April 10, 1963)


In 1964, in Ghana, there lived a man named Joseph W.B. Johnson. He was raised Roman Catholic, but he was a Seeker of Truth; studying all religions. He asked God which of the religions were true. A friend of his, who was not a Mormon, then gave him a copy of The Book of Mormon he was given while studying in England. Johnson read the book, and prayed to God what he should do. He claimed the following occurred:

“One early morning about 5:30 am, while about to prepare for my daily work, I saw the heavens open and angels with trumpets singing songs of praise unto God, In the course of this I heard my name mentioned thrice, ‘Johnson, Johnson, Johnson. If you will take up my work as I command you, I will bless you and your land.’ Trembling and in tears I replied, ‘Lord with they help I will do whatever you will command me.’ From that day onward, I was constrained by that spirit to from street to street, to deliver the message which we read from The Book of Mormon, I did exactly as the Lord commanded me, and immediately our persecution started.” (Mormon Identities in Transition, p.84)

Without purse or script, Johnson began to preach The Book of Mormon and the Joseph Smith Story from city to city, and from town to town, to his fellow Ghananians. He suffered great persecution. The pastors and ministers of other churches saw some of their members join into "Mormon" congregations. They told the people that the Mormons were "white racists" who hated black people, and that Mormons were behind the Ku Klux Klan, and many other untruths. Many of the people told Johnson that the Mormons were "racist" and a "cult". When educated Ghananians asked, "Why do you belong to a racist Church?" he replied, "What can I do, the Lord Himself told me it was true?"

But Johnson continued to preach, and, from 1964 until he baptized into the Church in 1978, he had made about 14,000 converts; many of whom also were baptized. He lived to see the Church in Ghana prosper, with many Stakes and a Temple.


Did god really speak to Joseph W.B. Johnson, just as he spoke to Paul?


References:
http://www.angelfire.com/mo2/blackmormon/homepage.html

A proper respond to this question should start by assessing what is meant by "being poor".   Let make a trip to Wikipedia; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty

Poverty can be measured in terms of absolute or relative poverty. Absolute poverty refers to a set standard which is consistent over time and between countries. An example of an absolute measurement would be the percentage of the population eating less food than is required to sustain the human body (approximately 2000-2500 calories per day for an adult male).

The World Bank defines extreme poverty as living on less than US$ (PPP) 1 per day, and moderate poverty as less than $2 a day, estimating that "in 2001, 1.1 billion people had consumption levels below $1 a day and 2.7 billion lived on less than $2 a day." [2] The proportion of the developing world's population living in extreme economic poverty fell from 28 percent in 1990 to 21 percent in 2001.[2] Looking at the period 1981-2001, the percentage of the world's population living on less than $1 per day has halved.

However, most of this improvement has occurred in East and South Asia.[3] In East Asia the World Bank reports that "The poverty headcount rate at the $2-a-day level is estimated to have fallen to about 27 percent, down from 29.5 percent in 2006 and 69 percent in 1990."[4]

In Sub-Saharan Africa GDP/capita shrank by 14 percent and extreme poverty increased from 41 percent in 1981 to 46 percent in 2001, increasing the number of people living in poverty from 231 million to 318 million.[5]

Other regions have seen little change. In the early 1990s the transition economies of Eastern Europe and Central Asia experienced a sharp drop in income. Poverty rates rose to 6 percent at the end of the decade before beginning to recede.[6]

World Bank data shows that the percentage of the population living in households with consumption or income per person below the poverty line has decreased in each region of the world since 1999: [7][8]
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty

Now, what is considered poverty in Nigeria?  Are the majority of people who subsist on less than $1 per day Christians? And are there any systemic reasons why they should be poor as a result of their religious beliefs.

Poverty is very much relative in nature; a poor family in th eUK may be very much better off than a poor family in Nigeria. So which of these poor people are you referring to?

The bible teaching on poverty is ambiguous. Consider the following injunctions or saying by Jesus;

1) It is easier for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of god.

2) Go sell all your belongings and follow me.

3) Blessed are the poor in spirit ,


BTW what does it mean to be "poor in spirit"?

There are also passage where wealth is seen as a blessing from god. Why would god want to bless anyone with "carnal" materials?

gbemiga1:
[center]The point I want you to see is the lesson you learn from it. The story simply shows that God is A loving God. He is always ready to forgive anybody that comes to him.
Forget about the past.He is ready to save evry sinner that asks for it.[/center]
[center] [center]www.dword4us..com[/center]

By this standard, would it be OK for me to make up a story now about Jesus and have it added into the bible? Just as the inventor of the "Woman caught in Adultery" story made up this story to make a point, I would be equally justified in making one up to make a moral or theological point.

Praying is a central to the Christian life. But what is the purpose of prayers? Can the human mind be so configured that god does not know its content? If god already know the present and future state of our minds, then he must know our desires. So whence the need for prayers?

The bible is replete with passages where Jesus is quoted as say that ANYTHING that one asks for in HIS name will be given onto them. Really, ANYTHING? Yes, there are no further qualifications to this verse. To these I have the following questions;

1) What would be the result of praying for an event that would violate natural laws?

2) What would be the result of praying for a morally reprehensible outcome?

3) There are trillions of times when an outcome has been counter to what was asked for in prayer (for instance, the death of loved ones in spite of prayers). Were these prayers not answered?

BTW, what is the unit of prayer? (the equivalent of the SI units of measurement). For instance, can one say a gallon [/b]of 20 prayers; or a [b]host [/b]of 100 prayers; or a [b]fleet of prayers? When an entire congregation is involved in prayers, what is the collective noun for this many prayers?

simmy:
Ess, i feel you. im a xtian and sometimes bible stories sound worse than horse crap even to me. but the real answer from a strictly objective point is , i don't know, if i knew the answers xtianity will cease from being a religion. i don't know if the bible is serving me a hot steamy bowl of human manure!!! thats why i need to believe the stories! u don't believe something that can be proved

You have for once spoken some sense here, and these are;

1) I don't know. If I knew the answers xtianity will cease from being a religion.

I could not agree more. Any propositions moves from the realm of myth, hypothesis, speculation, conjecture etc, to knowledge (fact) once all (or most) of the governing mechanisms are understood and explicated in a naturalistic framework.

2) That's why I need to believe the stories! You don't believe something that can be proved.

Spot on yet again. Just as we don't belief in gravity, relativity, plate tectonic, evolution, germ theory of disease, etc. These are either facts or theories that explain some observable facts.

The real question is: Why chose to believe in the stories of the Judeo-Christian tradition and not the stories from other traditions like Mohameddans, Mayans, African etc?

A few days ago, a business card with the follows words was dropped through my letterbox:

[center]Mr El Hahj -Claivoyant, Spiritual Healer, World Renowned

Mr El Hahj, medium, psychic, spiritualist world renowned for accurate revelation in the past, present and future. He inherited the power from his grandparents. This is a gift passed on from generation to generation. He will solve your problems in relationships, business, stock market, work, finance, exams, court cases etc., bring your loved one back, health related problems that can't be identified & sexual impotency. Protect yourself and your family from bad spirits & bad luck these and many other problems.

Guaranteed Results within 7 Days

Pay after results

Tel: (Withheld)
Mobile: (Withheld)
Email: (Withheld)[/center]

The Tel number suggest this individual resides within the Greater Manchester district, UK.

What a way to solve his own financial problems by fleecing the simple and gullible! Why is he demanding payment at all? If he truly has all these "gifts", he should already be floating on the money and demanding money would be a tad greedy.

The more serious point here is that there apparently are millions of people who believe in the effectiveness (powers) of these spiritualists and black magicians. The local African/Caribbean and Asia newspapers in the UK carry dozens of advertisements from the likes of Mr El Hadj. That such people are able to trade their reprehensible wares so easily is a modern-day scandal. Hundreds of people are negatively affected (death, loss of money, loss of health, etc) from contact with such charlatans.

Unfortunately, the likes of Mr Hadj thrive because of a general climate that condones and encourages "belief" on little or no evidence, a concept called faith. This really is the bane of our civilization. I favour an environment where people who make such claims are challenged to present evidence for the effectiveness of their claims. And this is exactly what was recently done on live Indian TV, challenging a charlatan to justify his claims;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeJVUbpF8Mg&feature=user
http://www.rationalistinternational.net/


I would like to see more of such endeavours to debunk these miscreants in the african public domain, where they seem to have an incredible hold on the public psyche.

Has anyone watched this vid?

anybody can comment on whether JC will come back again?

Check out the following bible verses;

Deut 18: 22
If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Mark 13:30
28 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.
29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door.
30 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Matt 16: 26
I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Matt 10: 23
When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matt 23: 36
I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

Matt 24: 34
I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Matt 26: 64
Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.

Mark 9: 1
And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."

Mark 14: 62
And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.

Luke 9: 27
I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."

Luke 21: 32
I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

1 corinthian 7: 29
What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none;

1 Thesolonians 4: 16-17
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

What do they all have in common? Well, listen to ProfMTH [/b]explain in the following videos;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3tZI2o7gv0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T_Vsl9tlko&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k90CJ4WDPo8&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV4MjZ256gY&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwXrr3SpK2A

When can we now expect him to come? [b]In this generation?

YES it is! the dude who wrote Genesis was not writing a scientific journal!

So, in what sense should we understand Genesis? metaphorical, allegorical, literal, mythological, etc, etc?

3. Enough is known about man s origins to know that whatever was stated in Genesis is reasonably accurate! and i wasn t speculating. if anything, i was calling against speculation.

Glib statements such as this should not be taken seriously unless you provide evidence as to how the Genesis account corroborates with other known and indisputable facts about human origins. Let me give you a few of such facts;

1) Humans are known to have evolved in Africa from common ancestor with chimpanzees.
2) Modern humans are at best only about 100,000 years old
3) Neandarthal are a distinct species from humans
4) Human migration was from Africa outward, rather than from the Arabian desert into Africa.
etc, etc

Can you show how the Genesis account fits into this picture?

lystola:
@ hurray! hurray!! hurray!!! huxley,
you performed as expected, you are so predictable, and sorry please do not this personal, don't you think you are being a victim of the very thing you wrote as your name tag? come on do you have to be so gullible to believe every and anything.come on, grow up.

Why the triumphalism. What victory have you won, if there ever was victory to be won. What shows I am being gullible. If you are going to make such remarks, you may at the very least show evidence that I am being gullible.

I said the most plausible explanation for what I have heard about BT is the gaseous explosion hypothesis. Now, this is the explanation that seems to fit most of the facts on the ground. This is what I said;

huxley:
The most plausible explanation I have come across for BT is that this area suffers from excessive gaseous release (methane) which may affect the buoyancy of vessels on the sea and the stability of aircraft above. These are purely natural events and I don't see why scientist would be interested in hiding this from the public. Whose purpose would that serve?

I would like you to challenge this hypothesis, or come up with better one (or the explanation that seems plausible to you). Otherwise you have no platform to shout hooray.

BTW, you claim early to be a scientist, yet you do not come across as one: Scientist speak on the basis of facts, evidence, hypothesis, theories, verifiability, falsifiability etc. But your vocabulary is devoid of these terms. How bizarre!

lystola:
hello, educate yourself man, visit Wikipedia or google and see for yourself, all the comotion going on. its a rumble and jumble out there. then come back and give me an insightful report. okay. of why no one has been able to give reasonable answers to it all. al dios senio.

The most plausible explanation I have come across for BT is that this area suffers from excessive gaseous release (methane) which may affect the buoyancy of vessels on the sea and the stability of aircraft above. These are purely natural events and I don't see why scientist would be interested in hiding this from the public. Whose purpose would that serve?

Platinorm:
This is an insult to Christians

In what sense is this an insult to Christians? Are you affirming that it is an insult because they plagiarised their early theology from the local pagan myths and cults around. Or do you mean that to criticise Christianity is an insult to Christians?

Great talk by Jerry Coyne. Just watch and enjoy.

http://www.rockefeller.edu/evolution/video.php?src=coyne

Thank goodness for science.

lystola:
@huxley,
hmm, the Bermuda triangle!!! is one very intresting one. . i don't need to be a good scientist by, being to proud to aadmit my lapses, if you don't know something, is it not wisdom for you to say so and open grounds for learning and corrections, instead of just giving opinion, you yourself know you can't solidify. the Bermuda triangle is one of things like that. its still inexplainable from my own point of view,all science is doing is explaining what they themselves do not understand.

What about the Burmuda triangle? What is the current "scientific theory" about the Bermuda triangle? Enlighten me please, how science clouds "facts" about BT.

lystola:
@justcool,
you know what,i am a scientist myself, i love science, and one of the things i love about it is that we[b] alsways try to explain everything away in our own terms even those which we do not seem to understand[/b], we look for ways to cloud and shroud and then explain it away.

Whereabout in the scientific enterprise are scientist trying to cloud and shroud things. The goal of science is to bring light where hitherto there is darkness. This does not mean science currently has an answer for everything. If you are a scientist you seemed not to have understood the basis precepts and motivations of science. I doubt you would make a good scientist.

As a matter of curiosity, can you give examples where science deliberately seeked to cloud and shroud and explain things away?