₦airaland Forum

Truthseeker10:
So are we blaming Adam or God for the sin and suffering and death in the world?

Truthseeker10:
You are funny....how did sin enter the world?

Nachmonides:
That's a very interesting question, if we all read the Bible cover to cover before really asking questions, I opine that this type of question would not surface at all.


Alright.
We read scriptures contextually, the writer of Hebrews saying Jesus learned Obedience is not something new, especially since Jesus is referred to as the Last Adam.

Similar to Hebrews 5:8 is Romans 5:19 (Greek);

ὥσπερ γὰρ διὰ τῆς παρακοῆς τοῦ ἑνὸς ἀνθρώπου ἁμαρτωλοὶ κατεστάθησαν οἱ πολλοί, οὕτως καὶ διὰ τῆς ὑπακοῆς τοῦ ἑνὸς δίκαιοι κατασταθήσονται οἱ πολλοί.

Transliteration:
hōsper gàr dià tēs parakoēs toû henòs anthrṓpou hamartōloì katestáthēsan hoi polloí, hoútōs kaì dià tēs hypakoēs toû henòs díkaiōi katastathḗsontai hoi polloí.

"For as by the one man's [b]disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous[/b]".

Adam - Disobeyed
Jesus - Obeyed

It doesn't tell us of an acquisition of knowledge, a learning in the modern sense that we understand it. It simply means one disobeyed what was said or instructed or commanded, the other obeyed what was said or instructed or commanded.




If that's not enough, let's analyze the very Hebrews 5:8 (Greek);
καίπερ ὢν Υἱός, ἔμαθεν ἀφ' ὧν ἔπαθεν τὴν ὑπακοήν

Transliteration:
kaíper ōn Hyiós, émathen aph’ hōn épathen tḕn hypakoḗn

"Though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered."

The phrase "He learned obedience" in Hebrews 5:8 does not imply learning in the traditional sense, as if Jesus gained new intellectual knowledge. Instead, it refers to experiential learning—a deeper, lived-out understanding through real-life experience.

Greek Word for "Learned" – ἔμαθεν (emanthen)

The Greek word "emanthen" (ἔμαθεν) comes from manthanō, which means to learn, to come to know, or to experience. While it can mean acquiring new knowledge, in this context, it refers to experiencing something firsthand rather than simply learning intellectually.





On the other hand, the greek word for the traditional learning, teacher-student, classroom-like learning, modern learning is;
μανθάνω (manthanō - μανθάνω). - The Greek word for "learning" in the sense of acquiring knowledge that was lacking.

Definition & Usage of μανθάνω (manthanō)

It means to learn, understand, gain knowledge through study, instruction, or experience.

It can refer to academic learning, discipleship, or acquiring skills.

This is the root word for μαθητής (mathētēs, "disciple" ), which means a learner, student, or follower (hence, "disciple" in the New Testament).


Examples in the New Testament

1. Matthew 11:29 –
"μάθετε ἀπ’ ἐμοῦ" (mathete ap' emou) → "Learn from me"

Here, Jesus invites people to learn from Him, indicating acquiring knowledge and wisdom.



2. Acts 23:27 –
"μαθὼν ὅτι Ῥωμαῖός ἐστιν" (mathōn hoti Rhōmaios estin) → "Having learned that he was a Roman"

This refers to acquiring factual knowledge.



Difference Between μανθάνω (manthanō) & ἔμαθεν (émathen, "learned" in Hebrews 5:

μανθάνω (manthanō) = Learning knowledge or skills through study or teaching.

ἔμαθεν (émathen, from manthanō in aorist tense) = Learning through experience, often by going through something difficult (as in Hebrews 5:8 ).

Does This Mean a Translation Issue?

Not exactly. The translation is correct, but the misunderstanding often comes from reading it with a modern, classroom-style learning perspective. The biblical meaning is about experiencing obedience, not just acquiring facts.

Example: Learning by Experience

A soldier does not "learn bravery" by reading about it but by actually facing battles. Likewise, Jesus, as God, always knew obedience in theory, but as a human, He experienced it through suffering.

Dtruthspeaker:
And Christ is taking us back to the way God first created us before Satan destroyed us. Which clearly means we were perfect before Satan came and spoilt us.

Truthseeker10:
So who is responsible?

Truthseeker10:
So is God responsible and to blame for the sin suffering and death of mankind?

Nachmonides:
You'd have to formulate your question properly so I don't assume. The topic is about God's omniscience.

Truthseeker10:
🤣🤣you are funny....so God made a flaw in creating man? So who do we blame for the sin of man, Adam or God?

Nachmonides:
I wouldn't say a prototype, a prototype is indeed the original model from which other versions are derived, but not necessarily the final perfected version. It serves as the basis or foundation for the final product, often used to test, refine, and improve upon.


If we say Adam was the prototype based on this, we are saying that God used Adam to test, refine, and improve upon his mistakes or shortcomings, whereas scriptures tell us Christ had been the plan of God even before the foundations of the world, before he even created Adam. So therefore Christ was first in the mind of God, not Adam.

However, we also cannot use the word prototype for Jesus, even though he is the first born, the model, the pattern for all mankind, because prototype suggests it's not the final perfected version and there'd be a refining, testing, improving.

I'd say we should use what scriptures use:
The Greek word "πρωτότοκος" (prototokos) is generally translated as "firstborn," but its meaning is more nuanced than just chronological order. It primarily conveys preeminence, supremacy, or superiority, rather than just being a prototype in the modern sense of an initial model.

Meaning of "πρωτότοκος" (Prototokos)

1. Firstborn in Rank and Preeminence
In biblical context, "πρωτότοκος" does not necessarily refer to the first to be born in a literal, chronological sense. Instead, it emphasizes rank and superiority. In the ancient world, the firstborn was granted authority over the family or inheritance, symbolizing supremacy and leadership.

Colossians 1:15-18 uses "πρωτότοκος" to describe Christ as the firstborn of all creation. This indicates His supremacy over all creation, not merely that He was the first created being. Christ is the preeminent one, having authority over all things.

Truthseeker10:
So sin and suffering and death was the plan of God from the beginning Even before he created man?

Dtruthspeaker:
For you to say has issues means it was perfect before when it was created.

And fixing it means I am redeeming it. Same way God created us perfect and then Satan caused us to have damaging issues. And now God is coming to redeem us.

So stop mixing up the processes.

Dtruthspeaker:
See how you are mixing perfection and redemption together even after you have seen the Camry Toyota made is not the same one smugglers have reconfigured, even if Toyota can always redeem it.

Process is important.

Dtruthspeaker:
Once a Creator says his creation is good and releases it for use, he impliedly says it is perfect according to him.

But perfection does not mean that a product is free from alteration or destruction. Eg see how smugglers have altered our dearly beloved Camry and Volvo in Badagry even their creators will be shocked.

Truthseeker10:
Would there be a need for Jesus to come if Adam had not sinned?

BigTolulope:
Lord and Saviour, My lovely sister has been afflicted with arthritis for many years and she goes through much pain and her bones are deteriorating too.

Lord, she is a lovely lady who does not complain about her deteriorating health and it is hard to watch her becoming weaker as the months and years pass by. Ease her pain I pray and uphold her in Your grace and goodness

Help her I pray in her pain and heal her..  and if there are herbs of foods that could help to ease her hurt I pray that You would give us the grace to find out what would be best for her.  May You bless and keep her and make Your face to shine on her and be gracious to her I pray, in Jesus' nam 

Amen

Source: https://www.tolulopeilori.com

Orikinla:
There are millions of church goers who confess and profess to be "Christians", but do they practice true Christianity? Jesus Christ our Shepherd, Lord and Messiah said that by their fruits you shall know them. The truth is, I do not see much difference between the church goers and the pagans in Nigeria. In fact, the pagans fear their juju more than the church goers fear God. The largest church in Nigeria is the Church of Hypocrisy. Majority of the church goers are hypocrites who are fellowshipping and worshipping in conceit and deceit, the Nigerian fools who think they can fool God. There are more true Muslims in Nigeria than true Christians. I have  preached the Good News of Jesus Christ on public transport buses, streets and homes for over 11 years in Lagos and Bonny Island. I preached mostly to total strangers, including Muslims and pagans. The most touching was the Hausa Muslim beggars who received the Good News when I had no money to give them. I have lived and worked with both church goers and Muslims for decades in Nigeria and I can say that I can find over 100, 000 true Muslims, but I am afraid that I may never find 1000 true Christians in Nigeria. You cannot claim to be what you do not practice, except you are liar and scammer. Jesus Christ is still the same yesterday, today and forever. Read Matthew, Chapter 25.

ichuka:
Everything being very good doesn't mean perfection.the creation in genesis was a prototype to the real deal, which is Christ.
Prototype might be good or even very good,that doesn't make it the reality on ground. Perfection is from Christ(the second Adam)not Adam the prototype in genesis(first Adam)

PerfectView:
If we read these verses literally, Genesis 1:31 says that God was satisfied that everything in creation was good, and Genesis 6:6 says that God later realised that this was not the case. That means that at the time of creation, God did not know what the future would be—he was not omniscient. What is your view about this?

pyyxxaro:
She , the photographer and the Cake designer are all severely mad 😒

FxMasterz:
You may not see Him but you would surely see His undeniable manifestation. Jesus is REAL.

jesusjnr2020:
The truth is that anyone who bows, kneels and prays to the stature of Mary including the Catholic pope will all go to hell, because there no room for idolaters in heaven.

So whether they like it or not, let them be blindly arguing and defending the indefensible instead of repenting.

It won't change that fact.

1 Corinthians 6: 9-10 (KJV)

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

God bless.

Dtruthspeaker:
Any one who wants to be a Christian is supposed to know that the instant he chooses to become a Christian, he becomes a hot enemy of Satan and Satan must attack him.

Thus, he has heard/experienced this midnight sleep fornications, so he ought to know that Satan will come again, to make him defile himself and fornicate, even if it is this deep and secret one

Therefore, as a christ follower, he is supposed to be aware that this was coming.

And that Satan will always keep throwing it desperately from time to time throughout one's life, knowing that man can still fall at 99.99th hour.

Dtruthspeaker:
Exactly. It is just a spiritual attack for Christians

But by your header you are referring to those who have such companies as a way of living which is what husband/wife means.

So, Christians know not to have any sex while sleeping and dreaming

tobby20:
He think reading bible alone go help am