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Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 2:06pm On May 16, 2012*

@Image

Leviticus 27:30-34

30 “‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord. 31 Whoever would redeem any of their tithe must add a fifth of the value to it. 32 Every tithe of the [i]herd and flock—every [/i]tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod —will be holy to the Lord.[/color] 33 No one may pick out the good from the bad or make any substitution. [i]If anyone does make a substitution, both the animal and its substitute become holy [/i]and cannot be redeemed. ’”

34 [color=#990000]These are the commands the Lord gave Moses at Mount Sinai for the Israelites.

If you compare the boldened & red words in the quote, it tells you WHAT THE ISRAELITES BROUGHT IN the quote below

Jem1: @ Image,
2 Chron 31:5-6 As soon as the order went out, the Israelites generously gave the firstfruits of their grain, new wine, olive oil and honey and all that the fields produced. They brought a great amount, a tithe of everything. 6 The people of Israel and Judah who lived in the towns of Judah also brought a tithe of their herds and flocks and a tithe of the holy things [/b]dedicated to the Lord their God, and [b]they piled them in heaps. (New International Version)

2 Chron 31:5-6 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things [/b]brought they in abundantly.6 And concerning the children of Israel and Judah, that dwelt in the cities of Judah, they also brought in [b]the tithe of oxen and sheep, and the tithe of holy things which were consecrated unto the Lord their God, and laid them by heaps.(King James Version)

Agric produce bro Unless you're saying they brought the agric produce and went back and brought the unmentionable items. The Holy items that belong to the Lord were defined in Lev 27:30,32.

The holy items are the agric produce, if anyone had redeemed by adding a fifth, it would also be part of the HOLY THINGS that BELONG to the Lord.

Giving them the land was central to His command to tithe.

Still waiting for you to show me WHERE THE OTHER ITEMS (i.e. those that make up your assertion that it was NOT AGRIC PRODUCE) were [b]COMMANDED [/b]AS TITHE. History does NOT SUPPORT YOUR NEW ASSERTION. If anyone had chosen to tithe other items, IT WOULD BE OF THEIR OWN VOLITION not as per command of the Lord. You cant make that as law for Christians. God's commanded tithe was from the produce of the land of Israel. That is the LETTER. Now if you (@Image)want to deviate from the letter, that's all well and good as YOU WERE NOT DESIGNED TO BE ABLE TO MEET THE LETTER ab initio (from the get go/from the beginning).

You can second guess God and say HE ONLY COMMANDED AGRIC PRODUCE because it was a mainly AGRARIAN SOCIETY, that IS YOUR INTERPRETATION. You can't force that as LAW for Christians to begin to tithe other things. If you say you want to follow the SPIRIT and NOT THE LETTER; (You say the spirit is to 'take care of those who minister') WHY INSIST ON 10% AND IMPOSE IT AS A LAW disguised as the spirit of the law? People can 'take care' without percentages.

The follwoing Israelites WERE NOT COMMANDED TO TITHE,

- Hired Workers
- Fishermen did not tithe
- Miners and the minerals were not tithed
- Carpenters/Construction Workers
- Traders who made/sold jewellery
- Priests
- Israelites without land e.g. the poor would receive tithe NOT PAY TITHE

Stop trying to give uninformed people the IMPRESSION THAT ALL ISREALITES TITHED. A lot were EXEMPT and WERE NOT CONSIDERED ROBBERS OR CURSED [/b]neither were they constantly afraid of the DEVOURER. In fact [b]THEY WERE AS BLESSED AS THOSE WHO had Land and tithed.

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 1:50pm On May 16, 2012

Jem1: @ Image,

You should have quoted the 2 Chronicles 31:5 up to vs 6

2 Chron 31:5-6 As soon as the order went out, the Israelites generously gave the firstfruits of their grain, new wine, olive oil and honey and all that the fields produced. They brought a great amount, a tithe of everything. 6 The people of Israel and Judah who lived in the towns of Judah also brought a tithe of their herds and flocks and a tithe of the holy things [/b]dedicated to the Lord their God, and [b]they piled them in heaps. (New International Version)

2 Chron 31:5-6 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things [/b]brought they in abundantly.6 And concerning the children of Israel and Judah, that dwelt in the cities of Judah, they also brought in [b]the tithe of oxen and sheep, and the tithe of holy things which were consecrated unto the Lord their God, and laid them by heaps.(King James Version)

Agric produce bro Unless you're saying they brought the agric produce and went back and brought the unmentionable items. The Holy items that belong to the Lord were defined in Lev 27:30,32.

Of course you can ignore the letter although your holding on to 10% rigidly speaks more of legalism to me. Christians are NOT under an OBLIGATION to give 10% of their income per the tithing commandment. You/Christians CAN'T keep the letter neither does the SPIRIT OF THE LAW of 'taking care of those who serve' require a stringent 10% COMPULSORILY. That is of your own volition. Making it regular which is obviously DIFFERENT from Abraham's one off VOLUNTARY tithe (which you say you're emulating) also shows it IS NOT a requirement for Christians

JUST NOTE THAT Some people's salary wouldn't be enough to take care of hospital bills of THEIR sick dying child, e.g. those earning N5000 a month i.e. £20/month. If all they require is to add the N500 10%; SOME TITHE TEACHERS INSIST they [b]MUST NOT USE IT [/b]for hospital bills, I'm glad you're not like that?

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 1:23pm On May 15, 2012

Image123: @Jem1

i don't need a levite brother, i already found a priest like Melchisedec that collected tithes too. His order collects tithes too. There He (Melchisedec) receiveth them, i'm glad He (Melchisedec) does. Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.. i got me a priest after the Order of Melchisedec.

It's good to give, be charitable and all that. But please remember the words of Jesus Christ, For the poor always ye have with you, and For the poor shall never cease out of the land. So, give to that proverbial dying child if you have to, it still doesnot stop you from giving to God, or to His servants though.

(edit by me 'He' (Melchisdec))

That Jesus collects tithes is said NOWHERE IN Heb 7,

Melchisedec collected tithes from Abraham.

'THERE' - means in time past (Abraham paid tithes to Melchisedec)

Melchisedec WAS LIKE JESUS [/b]in that [b]he did NOT COME FROM the line of LEVI Aarons sons from the tribe of Levi were COMMANDED BY LAW to be priests.(Jesus was from Judah)

(I'm suspecting Paul was a lawyer, he dwells on legal precedents and the legitimate nature of Christ's priesthood to take away sin)

Jesus' attendance at the altar is to legitimise Him taking away the sins of the world

see Heb 7: 23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely[c] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the[b] sins[/b] of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 1:15pm On May 15, 2012*

@Image,

About the POOR being always with us, IT is WRONGLY construed most times to mean we shouldn't bother too much about them as theyll be around always.

It's a wrong interpretation.

Matt 26:6 While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of Simon the Leper, 7 a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table.

8 When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. “Why this waste?” they asked. 9 “This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.”

10 Aware of this, Jesus said to them, “Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 11 The poor you will always have with you,[a] but you will not always have me.

- We will not always have Jesus with us. It means HE is NOT PHYSICALLY present BUT THE POOR ARE;

- It means give your expensive perfume or sell it at a high price and give it to the poor as IT IS ALLOWED NOW since He's not here physically

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 1:05pm On May 15, 2012*

@ Image,

You should have quoted the 2 Chronicles 31:5 up to vs 6

2 Chron 31:5-6 As soon as the order went out, the Israelites generously gave the firstfruits of their grain, new wine, olive oil and honey and all that the fields produced. They brought a great amount, a tithe of everything. 6 The people of Israel and Judah who lived in the towns of Judah also brought a tithe of their herds and flocks and a tithe of the holy things [/b]dedicated to the Lord their God, and [b]they piled them in heaps. (New International Version)

2 Chron 31:5-6 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things [/b]brought they in abundantly.6 And concerning the children of Israel and Judah, that dwelt in the cities of Judah, they also brought in [b]the tithe of oxen and sheep, and the tithe of holy things which were consecrated unto the Lord their God, and laid them by heaps.(King James Version)

Agric produce bro

Unless you're saying they brought the agric produce and went back and brought the unmentionable items. The Holy items that belong to the Lord were defined in Lev 27:30,32.

Of course you can ignore the letter although your holding on to 10% rigidly speaks more of legalism to me. Christians are NOT under an OBLIGATION to give 10% of their income per the tithing commandment. You/Christians CAN'T keep the letter neither does the SPIRIT OF THE LAW of 'taking care of those who serve' require a stringent 10% COMPULSORILY. That is of your own volition. Making it regular which is obviously DIFFERENT from Abraham's one off VOLUNTARY tithe (which you say you're emulating) also shows it IS NOT a requirement for Christians

JUST NOTE THAT Some people's salary wouldn't be enough to take care of hospital bills of THEIR sick dying child, e.g. those earning N5000 a month i.e. £20/month. If all they require is to add the N500 10%; SOME TITHE TEACHERS INSIST they [b]MUST NOT USE IT [/b]for hospital bills, I'm glad you're not like that?

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 12:30pm On May 15, 2012

Image123: @Jem1

What sort of point is that? The crops and animals tithed are unperishable? The scriptures simply reveal that if you worked in a place where stuff was processed, you could still tithe. You work in a wheat factory you can tithe, in a buscuit factory, chocolate factory, cadbury, dangote, flourmills you can tithe. And even if you are paid in buscuits, you have the liberty of turning it into money. Someone(Goshen ithink) was saying something of only tithing of what God gave increase, i was just grinning. What does God not increase. you think God is not the One that increases people that work in the bank and in the government, schools and oil companies? you think a man can receive anything except it be given him by God? You think the farmers don't need to put in effort, and sound agricultural systems, and irrigation, and fertilizer, and right breeding, right feeding? You think God is a magician, I've increased you solely so tithe?
2Ch 31:5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.

It's the most important in the Word of God. It's the only one we have record that it was observed. Show me a record of where the other tithing were done/observed? All the places that mention people giving tithes in the scriptures, it is the "temple'tithe". [/b]Even when God was talking about robbing Him, it was the 'temple tithe'. In Nehemiah, Chronicles, they all refer to the "temple tithe". There is no one direct reference to the other tithes, it's not hard to deduce which was most important in the Word of God.

@Image,

Kindly cast your mind to a harvest season in Israel Centuries ago. The Olives and Grapes WOULD NOT KEEP as they were perishable (No fridge to store it), So they pressed some into oil and wine.

They DID NOT

1. TITHE 10% of the the grapes and olives and then
ONCE THEY PRESSED THE 90%
2. Begin to TITHE the oil and wine from the 90%

[b]Another issue is YOU'RE READING INTO WHAT JESUS SAID in Matt 23:23 THE TITHES of mint and cumin in "these you ought to have done" WAS NOT STATED as temple tithe; WHY read that meaning into it to fit your agenda? Did the pharisee come and tell you that was the tithe JESUS was talking about?

If you @Image want to tithe "these you ought to have done" WHY INSIST IT MUST BE THE TEMPLE TITHE? Is it because of Malachi curses? How do you know it was NOT THE FESTIVAL tithe for the tither to EAT Jesus was talking about.

If you insist IT MUST BE THE TEMPLE TITHE
OTHER CHRISTIANS have a right to insist it is the FESTIVAL TITHE to EAT! grin

OR even the POOR TITHE for Widows, Orphans and the Poor!

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 12:17pm On May 15, 2012*

Image123: @Jem1

The passage's context is about redeeming, jem1.
Lev 27:13 But if he will at all redeem it, then he shall add a fifth part thereof unto thy estimation
Lev 27:15 And if he that sanctified it will redeem his house, then he shall add the fifth part of the money of thy estimation unto it, and it shall be his.
Lev 27:19 And if he that sanctified the field will in any wise redeem it, then he shall add the fifth part of the money of thy estimation unto it, and it shall be assured to him.
Lev 27:20 And if he will not redeem the field, or if he have sold the field to another man, it shall not be redeemed any more.
Lev 27:27 And if it be of an unclean beast, then he shall redeem it [/b]according to thine estimation, and shall add a fifth part of it thereto: or if it be not redeemed, then it shall be sold according to thy estimation.
Lev 27:28 Notwithstanding no devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or [b]redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD.
Lev 27:29 None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death.

[color=#000099]YOU forgot to add these:

30 “‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord.
32 Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod —will be holy to the Lord.
34 These are the commands the Lord gave Moses at Mount Sinai for the Israelites.

Lev 27:31 And if a man will at all redeem aught of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.
Lev 27:33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeeme[/b]d[/color]
The passage is strewn with instructions on what to redeem, what not to redeem. That's the major point/focus of the passage. And it states that the tithe of crops can be redeemed but the tithe of animals couldn't be redeemed. [b]It's not a command stating "Thou shalt only tithe of crops and animals". That's not the message in the passage, except we want to deceive ourselves. And the passage so proves that tithe could be turned into money. How you all miss that baffles me. the so called types of tithe could be turned into money if situation demanded it, even in the graceless OT
No problem, they are the commandments of God. But what are the commandments? The whole of scriptures are the commandments of God, aren't they? Are the commandments of God limited to Leviticus 27v3something?
.

You forgot to add the bits in ITALICS(my addition). You can't water down the definition bro.

Since your argument is that it did not say "THOU SHALT ONLY TITHE OF CROPS AND ANIMALS", Can you give us scriptures on WHERE IT WAS EXPLICITLY STATED by God THE OTHER ITEMS [/b]YOU INSIST [b]Were Commanded by God as tithe? It seems He was more emphatic about AGRIC PRODUCE for some reason? Should we second guess Him and give that as COMPULSORY FOR CHRISTIANS?

If according to you "the so called types of tithe could be turned into money if situation demanded it" it means the tithe is what Lev 27:30,32 says it is.

It allows you EXCHANGE for a fee of a fifth before it is then RECEIVED as TITHE per COMMANDMENT OF THE LORD. IT DID NOT SAY, bring your 10% of money for it "belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord".

Image123: @Jem1

No problem, they are the commandments of God. But what are the commandments? The whole of scriptures are the commandments of God, aren't they? Are the commandments of God limited to Leviticus 27v3something?
Lev 26:46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
Obviously, these too are the commandments of God. The whole of Leviticus is. the whole Bible is
Psa 119:6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
And the commandment on tithe in Leviticus was that the crop tithe can be redeemed, but the animal tithe could not be redeemed. it doesn't speak of the oil tithe, or the wine tithe [/b]or the money tithe, or the all that i possess tithe. Even [b]the pharisee had enough sense to know that he could tithe of all [/b]that he possesed. [b]Jacob knew that too.
Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
Abraham gave tithes of all. And God said in Malachi "Bring Me ALL the tithes". Why you base a doctrine on a figment of your imagination is compelling.
.

The Pharisee tithing of ALL (if he didn't mean Agric produce) wouldn't be tithing the SAID 'ALL' per commandment of the Lord as per what belongs and is Holy to the Lord (see Lev 27:30,32.) It would be of his own volition as we are NOT told that such items were per commandment of the Lord.

Jacob and Abraham we can see MADE THEIR OWN PROMISES, NOT BASED on Command of the Lord, unless we want to add that to scripture. It could have been EXPLICITLY STATED in the bible if it wanted US TO FOLLOW ANY SUCH COMMANDMENT. (We may choose to stretch our Imagination that it was commanded BUT WE CANNOT SET THAT AS COMPULSORY for Christians as it DOES NOT have a backing from SCRIPTURE)

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 9:44am On May 15, 2012

@East,

The bible says in HEB 7:8 “ In the one case, the tenth is collected by people who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living”

IN THE ONE CASE: Collected by Levites

IN THE OTHER CASE: Collected by Melchisedec

WHO IS SAID TO BE LIVING? Melchisedec

SEE Heb 7:3 “3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or END OF LIFE, RESEMBLING the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.

1. He (Melchisedec) RESEMBLES the SON of GOD, he IS NOT [/b]the son of God!
2. He(Melchisedec) received TITHES from Abraham
3. He (Melchisedec) had no END OF LIFE (as he had no genealogy)

There is NO COMMAND TO CHRISTIANS to begin to tithe LIKE UNTO LEVITES TO PASTORS.

You don’t need to live in fear; HE has NOT given you a spirit of fear, WHY fear??

DO You think GOD MADE A MISTAKE by NOT COMMANDING everyone else FROM ABRAHAM until THE LAW to TITHE?

[b]DO you perceive a weakness in GOD?

DO you feel the ISRAELITES were short changed and robbed GOD by NOT TITHING the silver and gold from the EGYPTIANS even though HE NEVER COMMANDED IT? That all the others who DIDN’T tithe from the time after ABRAHAM until GOD gave them LAND IN ISRAEL were ROBBERS? DO you feel people who had wages, fish (from fishermen ) and People who didn’t have land in Israel e.g. gentile CHRISTIANS who were NOT COMMANDED (whether via the law or Melchisedec) to tithe WERE INFERIOR even though GOD DID NOT SEE THEM AS INFERIOR?

MAY we not be like UZZAH who put his hand to steady the ark because he perceived it was falling. God does NOT see you as inferior or as a robber because you DON’T tithe, WHY? BECAUSE He NEVER COMMANDED you to TITHE.

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 9:40am On May 15, 2012*

@ East, so

1. You agree the tithing during the law is not for Christians BUT
2. You believe Malachi curses under the law are for Christians TODAY
3. You believe we MUST follow Abraham’s example of giving the tithe to Melchisedec BUT
4. WHY is the COMMANDMENT for Christians different and NOT given once like the bible recorded for Abraham? Aren’t you ADDING TO THE WORD?
5. WHY stick to the example of Tithing during the Law of paying compulsorily, constantly, continually for the rest of your life or else MALACHI curses under the law apply?
6. You would have to read a lot AND ADD TO SCRIPTURE in order for HEB 7 to transform into A COMPULSORY tithing COMMANDMENT for Christians

p.s.
About the vision the chap/lady had; WE MUST NOT ESTEEM FEELINGS/DREAMS/VISIONS ABOVE THE WORD OF GOD. We have to constantly hold it against the WORD to see if it is TRUE TO THE WORD OF GOD.

If someone came back from the dead and told you to kill your son/daughter will you believe him?

It’s not much different to when a brother has feelings for a girl in church, he then dreams of her, very vivid dreams of them getting married and tells her GOD gave him a dream confirming they should be married. It doesn’t mean GOD gave the dream confirming they should be married, he only dreamed of what he fills his mind with during the day! Did he dream? YES. Were they getting married in the dream? YES. Is it a confirmation from GOD that she’s his wife? NO.

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 5:15am On May 15, 2012*

Image123: @jem1
Smooth, i don't think i would say it better. These is what Hebrew 7 was about, not about the uselessness or usefulness of tithe, like kunle loves to argue blindly.

I agree with PasKun on Heb 7. Heb7:18 talks of disannulling the commandment because of its weakness & unprofitableness; it includes us NOT having to give tithes as of old. Or else you may have to go and find a LEVI!

And no, it’s NOT NOW SAYING THERE IS A NEW COMMANDMENT FOR PASTORS TO REPLACE LEVI TO REPRESENT JESUS AND RECEIVE TITHE. That would be adding to the word sir.

p.s.

Image123: @debosky

By the way, they were so overfed. People sold all and gave them.
Act 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.[/color]
i don't know which present day church where this kind of thing obtains. And it would be superfluous to ask for a tenth, when you have been given 100%.

You said the apolstles didn’t ask for tithe cos they had their bellies full from the 100%! This god of the belly what wont it cause!

My bro, pls read what they did with the things given to them, they didn’t appropriate IT for themselves unlike today!! You should have highlighted what they did with it lol?

Three crucial parts stand out in the early Christians’ example

1. Christians gave their all
2. The Apostles shared it amongst everyone
3. There was no lack!

So you want item 1. OR AT LEAST 10% instead of 100% BUT want to ignore items 2. & 3. where they followed Christ’s example of sharing and ensuring there was no lack.

Does the early Christians example look like an example for teaching that the TITHER MUST NOT use his tithe (to be given to pastor) for hospital bills for the tither's sick and dying child?

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 5:01am On May 15, 2012

So even though you’ve been insisting they were mainly agrarian, you insist they MUST HAVE BEEN COMMANDED TO TITHE OTHER STUFF. Even though HISTORY does not bear you witness that the Israelites were COMMANDED TO tithe other stuff. (Obviously we know only Israelites with Land TITHED, all the gold & silver from Egypt was not tithed!).

Okay, let’s add to the letter by hypothetically agreeing the COMMANDMENT WAS TO TITHE ALL THINGS.

It therefore means ACCORDING TO THE hypothetical LETTER, Christians MUST tithe OR ELSE, Malachi CURSES including the devourer will come and get them. They MUST keep to the letter as there is no difference between ‘TITHING COMMANDED TO THE ISRAELITES’ and ‘TITHING COMMANDED according to the SPIRIT TO THE CHRISTIANS’.

So WHERE do you draw the line? Is it only when Pastors re-baptised priests get their share? Why STOP there? Because if you do and IGNORE tithing for widows, orphans, the tither, 7th year (and 50th year) tithe holiday, YOU HAVE a new LAW/LETTER presented as if it WERE the SPIRIT of the Law even more PAINFUL on the vulnerable than the LETTER. It’s happening even TODAY.

You begin to support a system that TEACHES that a tither’s DYING CHILD MUST NOT be treated in hospital with his tithe set aside for the pastor!

Very unlike JESUS who plucked corn, ate on the Sabbath, refused to follow the letter by stopping those who wanted to stone the adulteress.

You sir resemble the Pharisee more than JESUS!

I would urge you to read the story of the GOOD SAMARITAN. I apologise but you must be careful as you are beginning to resemble the Levites and the Priest in Luke 10:25-37

vs37 “And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise”.

Read more about Jesus in the Gospels, He esteemed people above laws; ARE YOU FOLLOWING His example or preaching another gospel?

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 4:53am On May 15, 2012*

Image123: @jem1

You are jumping into the same mistake Again. That Jesus mentioned mint and anise, or said THESE doesn't mean that He only meant mint and anise. Of course you would readily agree that He also meant animals even though He didn't say. You would agree that He meant many other crops also, not just the THESE specifically mentioned.
Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.
Lev 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
Lev 27:34 These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.
i see you keep cutting out verses 31 and 33 [/b]which are the links to the essence of that passage and the chapter as a whole. The chapter and book as a whole are the commandments God gave Moses. [b]There's absolutely no point emphasizing that tithe is the commandment. the chapter was dealing with REDEMPTION of various things. they are the 'laws concerning redemption' as it were, not exactly some focus on tithes. If you insist that the passage is the exclusive and only God's "command" or God's tithe as you guys call it. Don't you see that it doesn't mentionoil or wine, and that the Israelites also gave tithes of oil and wine?Neh 13:12 Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries.
Wine and oil is processed, and it's not the Lord's increase(whatever on God's earth that means). You my friend have more letter in you than the OT Jews. The Spirit of the Word of God on tithes is basically that tithes is meant to CONSISTENTLY take care of God's workers, simple. Once that is settled fine.
Contrary to what mischievous antitithers teach, God never commanded the Israelites to eat (what has been called on this thread) the temple tithe. They don't mention in their deceitful teachings that there is one 'festival tithe'. they just say you are supposed to eat your tithe.

First up, regarding Lev 27:30,32,34; Do put things in context, we were defining tithes NOT redeeming them, the verses define the items to tithe. When we are discussing redeeming the tithes from AGRICULTURAL PRODUCE by adding a fifth, of course we have to include 31 & 33. Obviously vs 34 says “these are the COMMANDMENTS God gave Moses in Sinai”, there’s no escaping it bro, the definition and how to redeem them were COMMANDED by the LORD on Sinai.

My brother, Olives and grapes are perishable, they are usually pressed for the oil and wine and can easily be stored for tithing rather than let them spoil. They weren’t quickly tithed at harvest and then re-tithed after making the oil and wine.

Secondly,
Now concerning the mint anise and cumin, I think you are the one reading into the word by saying the tithe there WAS MEANT FOR THE PRIESTS! Jesus NEVER clarified that in Matt 23:23. There were other tithes e.g. for the poor, festival etc., WHY is the one to LEVITES more important to you, WHY ESTEEM IT SO MUCH it beclouds your judgement? SO ACCORDING TO YOU “these you should do” means @Image and all Christians MUST GIVE 10% to their pastors % NOT THE POOR TITHE? That sir, IS A NEW MAN MADE COMMANDMENT.

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 4:43am On May 15, 2012

Image123: @jem1

You are jumping into the same mistake Again. That Jesus mentioned mint and anise, or said THESE doesn't mean that He only meant mint and anise. Of course you would readily agree that He also meant animals even though He didn't say. You would agree that He meant many other crops also, not just the THESE specifically mentioned.
Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.
Lev 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
Lev 27:34 These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.
i see you keep cutting out verses 31 and 33 which are the links to the essence of that passage and the chapter as a whole. The chapter and book as a whole are the commandments God gave Moses. There's absolutely no point emphasizing that tithe is the commandment. the chapter was dealing with REDEMPTION of various things. they are the 'laws concerning redemption' as it were, not exactly some focus on tithes. If you insist that the passage is the exclusive and only God's "command" or God's tithe as you guys call it. Don't you see that it doesn't mentionoil or wine, and that the Israelites also gave tithes of oil and wine?
Neh 13:12 Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries.
Wine and oil is processed, and it's not the Lord's increase(whatever on God's earth that means). You my friend have more letter in you than the OT Jews. The Spirit of the Word of God on tithes is basically that tithes is meant to CONSISTENTLY take care of God's workers, simple. Once that is settled fine.

Contrary to what mischievous antitithers teach, God never commanded the Israelites to eat (what has been called on this thread) the temple tithe. They don't mention in their deceitful teachings that there is one 'festival tithe'. they just say you are supposed to eat your tithe.

Smooth, i don't think i would say it better. These is what Hebrew 7 was about, not about the uselessness or usefulness of tithe, like kunle loves to argue blindly.

P.S i've addressed all the other questions and remarks one way or the other in this thread. Where is Goshen and question number 10??

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 8:01pm On May 14, 2012*

@Bestlyf,

Permit me to respond to the quote.

I always use this example cos I was so shocked when I saw it.

- A tither adviced someone on Nairaland that if the tither's child is sick and dying, on NO ACCOUNT [/b]must the tither use the TITHE to pay the Hospital bills!!

Looking after those in Ministry is important BUT should we require CHRISTIANS to turn away from the suffering of their neighbour because they MUST pay their tithe??

Isn't it [b]legalistic to insist people MUST pay 10% (although GOD did not COMMAND Christians) even when you have to shut your ears to the cry of the broken, infirm, poor etc.??

What will you say when HE separates the GOATS from the SHEEP per Matt 25:31-46 BECAUSE IT IS THE YARDSTICK Jesus will use?

vs 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

- What WILL YOU SAY per the parable of the TALENTS [/b]when the Master requires of you what YOU did with the monies HE gave you?

- Will your answer that you GAVE IT AS TITHE even when YOU KNOW it is being used MAINLY to personally enrich a few who benefit from your tithe SATISFY HIM?

Matt 25: 24...‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Let us be wary of being a part of a legalistic system that upholds the strong and derides the weak. [b]A system that is MORE RIGID than the LETTER, for the LETTER of tithes (MORE THAN THOSE who say they practice the SPIRIT), REMEMBERED the WIDOW, the ORPHAN, the POOR, the TITHER etc. May we not be a part of those who use our 'Talent' MAINLY for themselves and NOT TO FURTHER the needs of those WHOM CHRIST so LOVED he likened them to HIMSELF in Matt 25:31-46.

It [b]should not be all about you and how your salary doubled [/b]after you gave your tithes (i.e. a [b]'me, myself and I' [/b]Christianity) but about the pains of others. Even those who don't tithe get their salaries doubled, YOU have been redeemed from the curse of the law, you only yoke yourself to the legalistic system due to FEAR. May we also not forget those who serve even as we remember the cry of the weak.

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 6:35pm On May 14, 2012*

Therefore,

Heb 7 wasn't argument for TITHING to a new order of Melchisedec.

The mention of tithing was incidental. It was to show the the LEGITIMACY of Christ's Priesthood even though He was from JUDAH and Not a Levi. It was to show the COMPLETE nature of the death of Jesus in redeeming us by bearing our sins (a priestly function), allowing us access to the throne of grace.

Heb 7 showed the following:

1. Priests didn't necessarily have to come from the tribe of Levi as there was PRECEDENCE for Priests outside the COMMANDED tribe of Levi.
2. According to Heb 7; Jesus didn't come from the tribe of Levi but IS a PRIEST
3. His legitimacy can be confirmed as in times past of old, their Partriach Abraham had encountered Melchisedec
4. Melchisedec WASN'T from the tribe of Levi (same as Jesus) but was a PRIEST.
5. The former (Melchisedec) CAN be said to be superior to LEVI as
i. Levites in Abraham Paid tithes to Melchisedec
ii. Therefore if Jesus is Like Melchisedec
iii. His Priesthood is NOT INFERIOR to Levites
6. Now, one of the functions of the Levitical Priesthood was to offer SACRIFICES to TAKE AWAY SINS
7. There was a change to the LAW so our Lord Jesus (who was from the tribe to Judah now of the order of Melchisedec)
8. Operates legitimately in the office of a Priest and
8. Takes away OUR SINS legitimately and completely ONCE AND FOR ALL.

Heb 7:25 "Therefore he is able to save completely[c] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. 26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself."

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 6:11pm On May 14, 2012

Jem1: @Image,

Matt 23:23

- Thank God Jesus said 'mint, anise & cummin' (food crops) CONFIRMING God's commandment in Lev 27:30,32,34.

Thank God we don't have to keep the letter of 'mint, anise etc'.

But bro Image, why 10% of all income knowing Jesus WASN'T giving a NEW COMMANDMENT TO KEEP TO A NEW LETTER (i.e. Tithes of CASH/Income)

Jesus said "...These (THE LETTER i.e. mint, anise etc) you ought to have done..."

If you want to keep to the SPIRIT since you CAN'T KEEP THE LETTER

WHY hold on to 10%? WHY replace mint, anise etc with CASH

WHY, especially when the SPIRIT is 'TAKING CARE OF THEM WHO SERVE' & NOT THE 10%?

.....and you're complaining that START QUOTE @"People didn't have a problem with tithing, it's until people like you and others start harping about nothing, and telling people to eat their tithes and other such rubbish, that is what is causing the confusion.[/i]END QUOTE @IMAGE

* Are you better than God who allowed tithers to eat their tithe even in the days of the letter Deut 14:23? Widows, Orphans and the poor were even collecters of the tithe sef Deut 26:12...No come be like the levites/Priest who were in trouble in [i]Mal 3:5 “So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against..those....who oppress the widows and the fatherless...,” says the Lord Almighty."

By restricting people, you begin to lean too heavily on Levitical Tithing which you are trying to avoid by keeping away from the LETTER.

P.s.

- I feel you're reading into Hebrew 7:8 wrongly. "And here men that die receive tithes; but there (Melchisedec) he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

- Pls read about Melchisedec in Heb 7:3 "Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever."

Melchisedec WASN'T Jesus. The Israelites knew him to be a priest and king and they never knew much of him as they never had his genealogy so they couldn't pin point and say this was where he died that is why Paul said of Melchisedec "...without end of life".

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 5:46pm On May 14, 2012*

@Image,

Matt 23:23

- Thank God Jesus said 'mint, anise & cummin' (food crops) CONFIRMING God's commandment in Lev 27:30,32,34.

Thank God we don't have to keep the letter of 'mint, anise etc'.

But bro Image, why 10% of all income knowing Jesus WASN'T giving a NEW COMMANDMENT TO KEEP TO A NEW LETTER (i.e. Tithes of CASH/Income)

Jesus said "...These (THE LETTER i.e. mint, anise etc) you ought to have done..."

If you want to keep to the SPIRIT since you CAN'T KEEP THE LETTER

WHY hold on to 10%? WHY replace mint, anise etc with CASH

WHY, especially when the SPIRIT is 'TAKING CARE OF THEM WHO SERVE' & NOT THE 10%?

.....and you're complaining that START QUOTE @IMAGE"People didn't have a problem with tithing, it's until people like you and others start harping about nothing, and telling people to eat their tithes and other such rubbish, that is what is causing the confusion.END QUOTE @IMAGE

* Are you better than God who allowed tithers to eat their tithe even in the days of the letter Deut 14:23? Widows, Orphans and the poor were even collecters of the tithe sef Deut 26:12...No come be like the levites/Priest who were in trouble in Mal 3:5 “So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against..those....who oppress the widows and the fatherless...,” says the Lord Almighty."

By restricting people, you begin to lean too heavily on Levitical Tithing which you are trying to avoid by keeping away from the LETTER.

P.s.

- I feel you're reading into Hebrew 7:8 wrongly. "And here men that die receive tithes; but there (Melchisedec) he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

- Pls read about Melchisedec in Heb 7:3 "Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever."

Melchisedec WASN'T Jesus. The Israelites knew him to be a priest and king and they never knew much of him as they never had his genealogy so they couldn't pin point and say this was where he died that is why Paul said of Melchisedec "...without end of life".

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 4:48pm On May 14, 2012

@Image,

You sir, are the one saying it must be 10% on all income to church for life even though THE SPIRIT is to take care of those who serve.

You esteem the 10th above Charity because the large sums from the MANDATORY TENTH (not commanded by God) are MUCH MORE than enough to take care of them who serve; there is a shortfall required for Christians to fulfill Matt 25:31-46;

May we not shut our hearts to the broken by insisting on 10ths for the few who now build monuments to themselves by riding on the fears of those who should NOT FEAR because their lives are hid in Christ (who wan touch them get to touch baba God first).

Love your analogy otherwise wink

Image123: @bernimoore

You are sooo correct in this. Jesus was never against the pharisees keeping the law or commandment of God. The law is good, even Paul said so.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
he said is the law sin? God forbid. but its unfortunate how people tarnish and rubbish the law because they want to argue against tithes. In following a law(whether God's law or any law, for there are many laws) , one has to be careful not to follow or obey that law just in the letter, but in the Spirit. i'm trying to break this down as much as possible. take for instance, in lagos, there is a law on bike riders to wear crash helmets. following the letter of that law is to put on the safety helmet and be seen. It doesn't matter the state of the helmet, whether it sizes, or is durable or has expired. All most of the government enforcement officers want to see that you pass them with an helmet on your head. you've fulfilled the letter. But the sprit of that law is to really protect and reduce crash effects in case of an accident. The bike rider ought to have a tight and durable helmet that fits and protects efficiently against crash. he ought to understand the purpose and take his safety serious. But if you live in a place like lagos, you'll see that the spirit of that law has not been fulfilled. The letter is fulfilled most cases. the bike rider would hand the passenger some helmet looking material as they approach a stop/check point. You will see people putting helmet on gele and holding the helmet. the enforcement officer would not bat an eyelid. that's a kind of illustration of fulfilling the letter and not the spirit of the law. That attitude of let's just do it, sebi they said we should. that's the way the pharisees were and some of us. the pharisees would see the letter that said a man was stoned for carrying sticks on the sabbath. Then they would look at the man Jesus said should pick his bed and walk on the sabbath. And they would get very furious, because the man is carrying a bed made of sticks. They did not realise the Spirit behind the law, or they were concerned with was keeping the letter "don't carry sticks". they would fight with Jesus for healing on the sabbath day, not realising that the law was made for man, not man for the law.
When one follows the letter, it will kill you. you would see so many contradictions that are not. you would weary yourself in the end. God so loved the world, yet He says "love not the world". It would give you an headache if not atheism if you follow the letter and continue insisting, instead of walking in the Spirit. There are denominations today who follow the letter that "God so loved the world", and they love the world and get themselves into all sort of mess and embarrassment in the world. You should know some of them. There are some others who have taken up the letter of "love not the world", and they won't touch this, or speak to that or associate with anybody. Anybody that is not in their church or leaves their church is the world. And they continue to kill themselves. Because of the letter. But when you follow the Spirit, you would have the balance and the life that the Word of God was meant to give.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
We are delivered from the law in the sense that we are not killed by it, because we walk in the Spirit, we serve in the Spirit. that's the new testament, that how we are supposed to serve. But some still follow the letter, it must be crop`, it must be levi, it has to be in Israel.

Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

ihope this has addressed the other parts of your post.

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 3:25pm On May 13, 2012

@Image,

The veil to the HOLY OF HOLIES has been RENT! You NO LONGER need the children of Aaron to present the 10th of the tithe on the ALTAR on your behalf. YOU (@Image can boldly approach HIS THRONE.

Christians are FREE, free of MALACHI CURSES AND ALL THE ORDINANCES SET AGAINST US!

IT MEANS even though we were NOT DESIGNED ab initio (from the beginning/from the inception), TO BE ABLE TO TITHE (Lev 27:30,32,32 etc),
WE CAN TAKE CARE OF GOD’S WORKERS WITHOUT BOTHERING ABOUT 10%. .

Our lives are now HID IN CHRIST JESUS you don't need to fear a DEVOURER because you didn't give 10% of your salary;

We have been translated from the KINGDOM of darkness into the KINDOM OF HIS DEAR SON, which is where we continually abide.

YOUR 10% is NOT WHAT DETERMINES WHETHER YOU WILL INCREASE TO OPEN HEAVENS PROPORTIONS NEITHER will NOT giving 10% result in curses.

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 3:18pm On May 13, 2012*

ASSUMPTION E: @Image (and Christians) CANNOT keep the LETTER
ASSUMPTION F: @Image (and Christians) CANNOT be CURSED for NOT KEEPING THE LETTER
ASSUMPTION G: Even if @Image (and Christians) chooses to give 10% of his income to his church, HE IS NOT giving per COMMANDMENT OF THE LORD, it is of his own VOLITION.

Therefore WHY impose a 10% RULE that Christians MUST give 10% of their income to churches?

ASSUMTPTION H: @Image BELIEVES IN THE SPIRIT of keeping the commandment and this is how he explains it:

QUOTE FROM IMAGE:[quote author=Image123]8c). Once you understand the principles and Spirit behind the commands of God, you'd have less problem. It's like the burden the Jews forever have with the Sabbath day. We (most of us) worship on Sunday instead. Most of us buy and sell, travel, work on any day of the week. It's due to the understanding of the Spirit of the Sabbath. We can on the other hand be under the letter and law of the Sabbath. What's the purpose of giving a tenth to the God? It is to consistently take care of God's workers that serve in the tabernacle. quote]END QUOTE FROM IMAGE.

ASSUMPTION I: If @Image believes the purpose of giving tithes (Lev 27:30,32) is to consistently take care of GOD’S workers SERVING IN THE TABERNACLE,

1. WHY MUST IT BE A 10TH rather than the SPIRIT OF TAKING CARE OF THEM? Because even when they have been fully taken care of, @Image INSISTS IT MUST BE 10%
2. COULD IT BE BECAUSE OF SUPERSTITION?
3. [b]DOES paying the magical 10th prevent him from MALACHI-LIKE curses and open the heavens [/b]like most of the tithe followers give as testimony?
4. Is that WHY they cannot let go of the magical 10th even though they know the [b]purpose is being defeated by pooling large sums to individuals [/b]rather that the body having enough to take care of others? They would rather see the poor starve/SUFFER rather than let go of the magical 10th?
5. Even though [b]they know some of those they impose the MAGICAL 10t% rule on WOULDN’T HAVE BEEN ASKED BY GOD TO TITHE [/b]IN Lev 27:30,32 BECAUSE THEY WERE POOR?

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 3:15pm On May 13, 2012*

@Image
I think you misunderstand me when I say the LETTER.

Here’s what I mean:

ASSUMPTION A: GOD determined and COMMANDED what was HOLY and therefore TITHE in Lev 27:30,32,34
“34 These are the commands the LORD gave Moses at Mount Sinai for the Israelites.”
ASSUMPTION B: @Image did NOT [/b]determine what was HOLY and TITHE in Lev 27:30,32,34
[b]ASSUMPTION C: In order to keep to the LETTER of what GOD commanded;

QUESTION 1: Can @Image (and Christians) give the following:
1. “A tithe of everything from the LAND…is HOLY to the Lord” and give every tithe of the herd and flock…will be HOLY to the LORD”

[/i]2. [i]From @Image’s Land freely given to HIM BY GOD in Israel??

Because according to
Leviticus 27:30-34
30 “‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD. 32 Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod —will be holy to the LORD. ’”
34 These are the commands the LORD gave Moses at Mount Sinai for the Israelites.

NOTE : Anything outside of this will NOT BE KEEPING TO THE LETTER.

NOW this TITHE (see Lev 27:30,32,32) was given to the LEVITES and Priests according to the commandment in
Num 18 21 “I give to the Levites all the tithes (Lev 27:30,32) in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the tent of meeting. 22 …… This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. They will receive no inheritance among the Israelites.” 25 The LORD said to Moses, 26 “Speak to the Levites and say to them: ‘When you receive from the Israelites the tithe (Lev 27:30,32) I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe (Lev 27:30,32) as the LORD’s offering.

Invariably;

ASSUMPTION D: NOT complying with the LETTER resulted in CURSES in MALACHI 3

8 “Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me.“But you ask, ‘How are we robbing you?’“In tithes (Lev 27:30,32) and offerings. 9 You are under a curse —your whole nation—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe ( Lev 27:30,30,32; Num 18:26 i.e. a tenth of the tithe) into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not drop their fruit before it is ripe, ” says the Lord Almighty.

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 8:38pm On May 11, 2012

@Kamilara it's Ps 141:5, great verse, thanks for sharing.
@ApostlePat, may grace and mercy continue to abound towards you, I pray I have your humility when challenges come.

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 12:30pm On May 09, 2012*

Now on to other things:

I would want you to consider the following quote:

https://www.nairaland.com/932877/where-does-bishop-oyedapo-get

When you say we need to pay the ~~Levitical Tithes~~ first Tithe so our MOG can be catered for is this what you mean?

Quote:
TITHES: this is the real windfall
Every month, each member is expected to pay 10% of his salary. For our case study, let's assume one church has a 100 members. Let's also assume each of them earns minimum wage.

18,000 * 10% = 1,800

1,800 * 100 = 180,000naira every month.

Imagine a church has at most 10 branches in a state.

180,000 * 10 =1.8million naira per month..

There are 36 states in Nigeria, Abuja is excluded..

1.8m * 36= 64.8m naira every month..Quote
The italics is a quote from musKeeto on the said thread.

Don’t you think that by focusing on percentages, we have created a system that goes beyond feeding/taking care of the clergy WHICH YOU AGREE IS THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW even when we are not following the letter?

You also argue (like Rev. Ewuosho) that adding another 10% making it 20% would be hard for our brethren to give, WHY do you think we cannot give from the 1st 10% to meet other needs you suggested to inculcate a sharing spirit, generosity?

Don’t you think based on musKeeto’s quote, our generosity has MORE THAN met the need to consistently take care of God's workers that serve in the tabernacle?

Unless you are attempting to keep the letter of 10% instead of the spirit of taking care of them?

Because from the billions being generated, it appears THEY ARE FED FAT and throwing up from the excess/overfeeding (some are even competing to be on the FORBES LIST while using only dregs/left overs to throw at the poor). They are building symbols to themselves instead structures that will benefit the weak/ downtrodden in our society.

Don’t you think if we follow your example, by the time we give 10% to the clergy, celebrate with a further 10% (even though you agree it will be hard to give), by the time we require another 10% (or is it 3%) for the Poor Tithe (if we focus on MOSES’ LIKE percentages) OUR BRETHREN will have nothing left for the poor?

Or is that why some prefer ABRAHAM’S 10% to help the clergy? Since you don’t want to burden the people? That’s all well and good, but where do we get the monies to take care of the poor? Afterall, it is what WILL DETERMINE IF WE ARE GOATS OR SHEEP (Matt 25:31-46).

I know you agree we must give to the poor but I feel that by focusing on percentages which was part of the letter (Abraham’s 10% was not commanded so is not part of the letter), churches focus less on charity (even though they pay lip service to it).

Look around you and see the devastation, the weak, the hungry, the dying. The government has shirked its duty, may we not do the same by focusing on percentages, may we focus on the spirit which is to be our brother’s keeper.

If some of the amounts from musKeeto’s quote was used to generously, consistently, loving take care of e.g. almajiris, we would shed abroad their hearts the love of GOD without mentioning a word of the scripture; We would be loving our neighbour as ourselves and We would show the love Jesus wants us to show. We need to get our charity working overtime. In our giving, let's remember not to think mainly of how we will receive because we gave, let us focus on how our neighbour will increase from our Charity.

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 12:10pm On May 09, 2012*

Image123: Jem1.
where do you get the idea that the commandment must be kept by following the letter? The pharisees followed the letter and Jesus was continuously correcting that we follow the Spirit, not the letter.

Good. At least we agree that the Pharisees followed the letter but we don’t have to. Why do you insist on following the 10% rule? Agreed you ignore the idea it must be food and crops why 10%? Does the number have a magical potency?

If you don’t have to keep the letter, why impose a 10% rule on others? If you disregard the letter that was so important that when it was broken by the old testament Priests/Levites, it led to curses for the Priests/Levites in Malachi 3; why impose a ‘Malachi bondage’ of FEAR on others, when they CANNOT BREAK THE LETTER AS THEY DONT HAVE TO KEEP THE LETTER?

Image123: Jem1.
What are the holy items you keep talking about? There is no 'holy item' anywhere. What you give to God is holy, holy basically means separate. Stop all this unbiblical mystery about holy items and holy lands.

Good. The letter defined what was HOLY according to Lev 27:30,32,34. Of course you can set aside something for God and call it holy if you want BUT that is different from WHAT GOD OF HIS OWN VOLITION DEMANDS IS HOLY. Obviously keeping to WHAT GOD DEMANDS in this case would be keeping to the letter which WE agree we don’t have to adhere to the letter. YOU WOULDN’T BE ABLE to meet the CRITERIA anyway of what GOD DEMANDS AS HOLY IN Lev 27:30,32,34

Image123: @Jem1
Today, everything applies to me by God's grace. God blesses my basket and storehouse aplenty. He makes me to lie down in green pastures. You need to take a chill pill and appropriate the Word of God into your life.

Amen brother, same here. And thank you for the advice, I constantly appropriate the Word of God in my life but I will not take a chill pill on studying like a Berean thank you very much.

Image123: @Jem1
You can't be talking from both sides of the mouth saying the law has to go and its associates. It's major weightier associates according to the Law-giver are mercy, judgement and faith, not mere tithes. If the Law has been abolished according to you guys, let's do a thorough work of abolishing faith, mercy and judgement the bigger weightier percent, not just abolishing tithe a minor.

You can address those who have told you about whether the Law and its associates have gone. Obviously since you can’t keep the letter of Lev 27:30,32 based on your circumstances of not being an Israelite who has been bequeathed land in Israel, that part is a no brainer (it was never ever going to be kept by you). Choosing to pay 10% might be a magical potent number to some but that is of YOUR OWN VOLITION NOT PER COMMANDMENT OF THE LORD.

You know where I stand on Faith, Mercy and Justice. You might want to read that again. Whether part of the Law or not, WOULD YOU (IMAGE/CHRISTIANS) have been able to keep the letter of Faith, mercy and justice even in the old testament?

Image123: @Jem1
Are you a bully?

Dear God no! If I’ve come across as that in any way, I do apologise to you okay? Please, my intention has always to state my position. Most of the time, I address a system that I know is unfair, unjust and unmerciful to the large majority of struggling Christians in our beloved country. A lot of them are supersticious and fears of Malachi curses are used to make them pay compulsorily 10% of their wages for life (as though it were a COMMANDMENT FROM GOD) inorder to prevent accidents, illness, death etc. (things that can be reduced if thieving politicians used the nation's resources for good roads, hospitals etc, na them be the real winshes and wisards lol).

Please if I come across as too passionate, know it’s not about you as a person okay? You are my brother even when we disagree, we don’t know each other and it would be foolish of me to presume to know all of who you are just because we disagree on tithing. You may be the best fellow just that I disagree with you on your tithing position.

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 1:23pm On May 08, 2012*

Image123: Repetition of vacuous points would not cut it for christians that are not tossed by every wind of doctrine. Winds like continually stating that everything associated with the law has been done away with, WHEN WE KNOW THAT FAITH, JUDGEMENT AND MERCY ARE THE CORE OF THE LAW. It only goes to show that you don't know what you're doing.
"Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment HOLY, and JUST, and GOOD." (Romans 7:12).

@ Image,

The commandment must be kept by following the letter of the law, when you deviate from the letter, you are no longer keeping the said commandment. Those to whom Jesus spoke to in Matt 23:23 knew what aspects they could keep e.g. Israelite farmers who were bequeated land in Israel who grew food e.g. mint and cumin could keep the tithing commandment but others who were not in receipt of the bequeated Land and were not Israelites WOULD NOT HAVE THE HOLY ITEMS which were commanded to be tithed. Other hearers would know they if they could keep JUSTICE, MERCY AND FAITHFULNESS.

Of the four items

1. Tithes of mint and cumin from Land in Israel
2. Justice
3. Mercy
4. Faithfulness

which do you think Jesus would say would apply to YOU?

*edit*

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 1:20pm On May 08, 2012*

Mercy cries out for the ‘easy yoke’ of Jesus transformed into a heavier burden for the Christian than the Israelites bore.

(The Israelite Poor were at the heartbeat of God almighty and beloved of our Lord Jesus Christ).

Mercy cries out for the injustice of making widows, orphans and the poor believe they are robbers when they do not keep a man-made law.

Injustice is when God in the old testament made the poor beneficiaries of tithing but the man-made Law masking as the old testament commandment insists the ‘tithe of income’ MUST GO DIRECTLY TO THE ‘STOREHOUSE’ renamed Church or else a devourer will get the tither.

Where is the Justice when the ‘tither’ is taught that he has given his tithe to church and should therefore not concern himself with what happens to it?
Equity demands that the monies be held in TRUST and used for the betterment of down-trodden, afterall He said ‘when I was hungry you gave me to eat’ (Not 'when they (poor) were hungry you gave them to eat'). Afterall, THAT is the yardstick for separating the sheep from the goat on the LAST DAY in Matt 25:31-46

What will the tither say to the MASTER (as in the parable of talents), when He requires of you what you did with the monies He gave you? Would your answer that you gave it Church, and it’s no longer your business satisfy Him? Even though you (the tither) knew it was NOT being used to ‘FEED HIM’ whom we say we love?

Mercy is when God made sure the Israelites owned their own Land for 1. homes(not renting/tenants) and for 2. their farming business BEFORE asking them to tithe even though they were increased in GOLD & SILVER from the Egyptians as they left Egypt (they were NOT COMMANDED TO TITHE the gold and silver.)

Where is the justice in using the PULPIT to make a case for the strong and deride/forget the weak? When the pulpit says there is a difference in giving to GOD (by giving in CHURCH) and that other giving e.g. to the poor is separate from giving to God?

FAITH that the Israelites will keep God’s commandment makes the poor in Israel go to the harvest knowing they can glean the fields. Once they glean the fields, they are increased as they have more than they had before they left home; God never asked them to tithe of the items gleaned from the harvest.

OUR example is Christ (who was a wage earning carpenter) and the early apostles and the early Christians. They were not cursed because they did not keep Moses’ tithing commandment (i.e. those Israelites who earned wages; those Israelites who did not own land and those who were not Israelites were EXEMPTED from Moses' Tithe per the Commandment of what was HOLY and belonging to the Lord, ).

Let us love our neighbour as ourselves. Our love for those who preach the gospel will ensure that they live off the gospel, not by putting yokes on our brethren, NOT BY GOING BACK TO RE-CREATE ALTARS AND TEMPLES, but according to the admonition; “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.”

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Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 11:13am On May 08, 2012*

Moses' Tithing & Malachi Curses – A marriage made in Heaven

(Moses' Tithe belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord.)

- Moses' Tithes (*Lev 27:30,32 i.e. Farm crops & animals) and *Malachi Curses (Mal 3: 10-11 i.e. meat, fruit) are two peas in the same pod; they are Siamese twins that cannot be separated; a permanent marriage made in Heaven by God almighty Himself.

- It was practiced by the Israelites, affirmed by *Jesus (Matt 23:23 as food - mint/cumin) and recorded in scripture.

- Pastors who pronounce Malachi curses on Christians must revert to Moses' Tithes BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT GOD COMMANDED (Lev 27:30,32 i.e. Farm crops & animals) because a rejection of Lev 27:30,32 by pastors is invariably a rejection of his other half; the Malachi curse.

- It is actually an aberration to COMMAND CHRISTIANS TO PAY an “‘imitation’/fake Lev 27:30,32/Malachi Tithe” re-baptised as ‘Wage/Cash Tithe’ even though GOD NEVER COMMANDED IT, Jesus never affirmed it AND scriptures never recorded Carpenters like Jesus OR early Christians practising it.

- It is an aberration to attempt to marry the “‘imitation’/fake Lev 27:30,32 Wage/Cash Tithe” to Malachi curses and pronounce it as a BINDING LAW FOR CHRISTIANS. They aren’t two peas in a pod neither are they Siamese twins that cannot be separated; any such concoction is man-made and not made in Heaven by God almighty.

- Christians should know that they are not cursed if they do not give pastors the “‘imitation’/fake Lev 27:30,32/Malachi Tithe” re-baptised as ‘Wage/Cash Tithe’.

- Christians can give as they choose;

- free in the liberty wherein which they were called,

- free of conjured up imaginary curses/devourers which pastors by themselves created (ABRAM’S TITHE NEVER HAD MALACHI CURSES ATTACHED) (God’s curse was on farm crop/animal tithing BINDING ON ISRAELITES not cash tithing)

- free to be like Jesus (and other carpenters etc) and all the other early Christians for whom Moses' Tithing and Malachi’s curses did not apply. (Carpenters were paid wages and were NOT COMMANDED by God to tithe wages).

*Lev 27: 30 “ ‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord.
32 Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy [/b]to the Lord.

[b]34These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 1:43pm On May 06, 2012*

@Image,

You know Jesus was talking of food crop tithes (mint, cumin) in Matt 23:23 which were the items commanded to Israelites on Mt Sinai.

So "these you ought to have done" is NOT talking to/ commanding tithing to you @Image or Christians.

"these (10% of food crops/animals harvested from God's Holy land land freely given to the Israelites) you (i.e. Israelites) ought to have done".

God commanded them to tithe compulsorily food crops/animals about 1, 400 years earlier and Jesus confirmed it here as food crops (Stop adding to the scriptures; there's nothing to discard as it was not directed at you; unless you have the crop/animals from Land freely given to you in Israel).

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 8:30am On May 06, 2012

The fear and superstition is as real as any mountain. The teaching uses mainly people's gut feelings that it must have been their paying tithes that provided and protected them not God in His grace & mercy. In a place where roads are so bad accidents abound, a place where health care can be expensive for some leading to untimely deaths, paying tithes gives some the illusion that they've stopped the devourer by their works (tithes).

The side effects of millions giving 10% of their earnings for life to Pastors is that when such pastors keep the bulk of the money to THEMSELVES, those children who need fees, hospital bills, food etc are neglected.

What it has done is it has made charitable works take secondary place. The one that broke my heart was when one tithe advocate was advising someone on Nairaland that even if the tither's child is sick and dying, he MUST NOT use his tithe for hospital bills!

If Tithe Teachers truly want a tithe Principle, they should exempt the poor widows, orphans and ALLOW the Tither give of his tithe DIRECTLY to the poor if they choose to.

The Pastor has a pulpit to argue his case of giving to him (pastor); WHO will speak out on behalf of the por & downtrodden?

Where is the pulpit that will speak out for them the way Jesus did?

Christianity Etc › Re: A 2-hour Exposition On Tithing And Debate With A Nigerian Tithe Preacher by Jem1: 2:12pm On May 05, 2012*

I've watched the debate, Rev Ewuosho was full of superfluous eloquent words. Rich in its verbosity but lacking in the scriptural content required for the engrained, compulsory, monthly, fear ridden (sometimes the fear is based on sublimial messages), 'storehouse only' Tithing required of today Christian.

Inasmuch as he tries to portray it as a principle refusing to label it as following the old testament law, the application of his principle so mirrors an aspect of the Law we might as well concede they have laid down A New Law. Obviously the festival tithe (where the tither ate his tithe) & the poor tithes (for orphans, widows etc.) are ignored (even though it begs a 'Principle' since he loves principles) as they do not put money in the storehouse (now redefined Church/Pastor). (The word 'Storehouse' sends a subliminal message conjuring up images of Malachi curses & the devourer).

The cherry picking is proof that the idea that the Teaching is an act of obedience to God's word is a lie and shows it up as sanctimonious posturing which is inevitable as the foundation for teaching Tithing as compulsory for the Christan is weak.

Maybe we need to have Jesus come back again as It's a shame that the voice for the weak and poor has been silenced by the very ones put in place to be the voice of the downtrodden. The strict demarcation between giving to God and giving to the poor is unnecessary.. It is now part and parcel of giving to God. "When I was hungry you gave Me to eat" NOT "When 'they' were hungry you gave 'them' to eat. When you say the Tithe (today's) belongs to God and it MUST ONLY be taken to 'Your' Storehouse and not the poor, that sir, is another Gospel.

And no Paul was not arguing by seemingly using a sleight of hand for himself to become a Levi or create a brotherhood of a new Levitical Priesthood. It is why he said to "Live off the gospel" NOT "Live off the Temple/Altar". We know they (early Christians) gave generously and cheerfully and the welfare of the people was their primary concern; it is where they directed the Church's resources. 'The poor we always have with us' by Jesus was not supposed to be a cop out asking us to be cold towards them. This is what Jesus meant; NOW Jesus is NOT physically with us, Jesus meant you can now POUR YOUR ALABASTER OIL on the poor.

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 7:36pm On May 04, 2012

Jem1: As long as you can get people to practice 'Pastor's Tithe' [/b]which you attempt to pass off as God's instruction to Moses laced up with Abraham's war spoil example, you're quite happy to mislead God's children into paying compulsorily monthly without fail, 10% of their earnings to MOG.

@Image,

How did the above quote become [b]your (Image) quote below?

"Telling people to give 10% of their income is not a mark of a false shepherd. That's such a ridiculous benchmark."

Don't make me yab your comprehension skills.

Kindly be truthful when you attack.

It would have been better if you could point out the facts I posted that weren't true.

1. Pastors attempt to pass of as God's instruction to Moses on Tithing
(laced with Abraham's war spoils example)
2. A compulsory tithing instruction to Christians
3. That they pay monthly without fail, 10% of their earnings for life to MOG

A false shepherd uses an underhand method to collect people's tithes under false pretences that they are (according to the WORD OF GOD)

1. Compulsory
2. Regularly & Continuously (monthly for some for the rest of their lives)
3. Must be given only to Pastors
4. Removes God's passion for the orphans and widows
(creates a cold people who will PAY PASTOR the tithe instead of giving the tithe to a dying sick child because they fear that a devourer might come after them per Pastor's teaching)
5. Removes the celebratory nature where the worker who sweated was asked by God to eat the tithe and celebrate.
6. Hates God's example of giving before receiving (God gave land first before asking for tithe. Pastor will ask for Tithe even when his followers are in debt/struggling/poor etc.

Christianity Etc › Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 1:54pm On May 04, 2012*

As long as you can get people to practice 'Pastor's Tithe' [/b]which you attempt to pass off as God's instruction to Moses laced up with Abraham's war spoil example, you're quite happy to mislead God's children into paying compulsorily monthly without fail, 10% of their earnings to MOG.

The marks of the false shepherd/MOG:

- [b]God's example of ensuring His children were provided Land for a permanent Home and Land for business premises BEFORE He instructed them to tithe doesn't matter to the fake MOG. (They never tithed until He gave them the Land).

(Infact, some will ask people to tithe of their rent money, God never did that).

- God made sure the poor who didn't own land didn't tithe (Pastor's Tithe [/b]insists those who are poor and struggling MUST PAY instead of giving the poor the tithe like God did in His instruction).

- God made sure all the [b]vulnerable people in society received of the tithe (widows, orphans, strangers) (our fake MOG would insist the tither MUST give them all the tithe or else a curse would come to the person tithing. They don't want the tither to give the tithe to poor as it would deplete MOG's share )

- The Tither ate of his Tithe (This one particularly vexes our fake MOG - Tither must not do this as it would deplete MOG's share).

- Christians are already blessed abinitio but fake MOG would insist without Tithing a devourer will come and get you putting God's children in fear. Fake MOG makes sure Malachi curses are the main verse in teaching tithing forgeting that the Malachi verse talks about food crops/animals on increase from LAND that preceeded the tithing Law. God's care and devotion is evident, Israelites were already blessed with silver and gold from Egypt [/b]even before God gave them the Land [b]BUT He waited until He gave them Land before asking them to Tithe from the Land .

- Fake MOG's teaching on Tithing allows God's children to start thinking like diviners. They start checking themselves and others, it's because you tithed you got blessed, maybe so and so had an accident because he didn't tithe. They make sure they lose focus of the rest of the world who don't tithe but are blessed (as long as the loot from false teaching nets them the people's money, God's example doesn't matter to our Fake MOG).

Matt 11 28“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

The real Pharisees are evident from their twisting of scripture, please emulate the true Shepherd, His Yoke is easy and His burden is Light.

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