In the spirit of giving unto Ceaser what is Ceasers, transparency and accountability to the larger public via institutions set up for such are a must do for everyone including MOG.

1. What do our LAWS say about earnings for individuals, corporations, charities etc?
2. Are they required by law to declare all monies whether they be earnings or gifts and waived for tax purporses as appropriate where necessary?
3. If some in the larger public do not follow the laws due to a seeming moral amnesia, should our MOG act above board by doing the right thing?
4. Are churches which are registered as non profit organisations required to further the aims for which they were set up?
5. Are terms/aims such as 'furthering the gospel' vague ends and non tangible?
6. Are the terms/aims of 'furthering the gospel' an excuse not to apply funds solicited towards physical needs within the community?

Then there is the question of ETHICS;

1. Should MOG or churches consider themselves the end point for charitable givings?
2. i.e. Do they have a duty to pass on monies accrued for a further end of alleviating poverty etc?

At the end of the day, screaming the following answers "you're poor that's why u question", "touch not..", "I have given to God and don't need to know" etc ARE NOT AN ANSWER TO CEASER.

I want to believe Churches do help one way or the other but I beleive they can do more.

In this particular case, the funds for the University shouldn't be shrouded in secrecy afterall he has nothing to hide. All monies earned, received as gifts etc by the Bishop must have been declared in the past to the Government in the spirit of giving to Ceaser what is Ceasers. and then there is the matter of Ethics and Morals, afterall he is an upright and noble man of Christ or are those who argue for secrecy saying otherwise??

Mr. Enebeli Elebuwa appeared so frail in the video I watched. It was very painful watching him...his eyes almost pleading for respite. I'm not sure he was in a fit state to consent to being paraded so? I may be wrong.

SisBrenda:

Eer Pastor the question was posed @ all of us. I may not have studied theology like the pastorness but I know doctrine is what man interprets the word of God and how we apply it to ourselves. If you like don't pay tithe I will wave my tithes @ you from heaven while you beg me to bring you the tithe basket from hell.

@Sis Brenda,

Is it your submission that:

1. People like Jesus who were carpenters
2. i.e Those who would have been paid wages
3. and those who increased during the time of the Israelites in ways different from the definition of Tithing in Lev 27:30-34 are in hell?
4. They were never commanded to tithe shekels, gold, silver etc
5. Neither do we have biblical examples of tithes being items different from the agric produce (see definition below)during the Law.

Lev27
30 "'A tithe of everything FROM THE LAND, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD. 31 If a man redeems any of his tithe, he must add a fifth of the value to it. 32 The entire tithe of the herd and flock--every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd's rod--will be holy to the LORD. 33 He must not pick out the good from the bad or make any substitution. If he does make a substitution, both the animal and its substitute become holy [/b]and cannot be redeemed.'" 34 [b]These are the commands the LORD gave Moses on Mount Sinai for the Israelites.


- It is why - ‘NOT EVERY TEN PERCENT IN ISRAEL was HOLY and BELONGED to GOD’.

- It is why the 10% of those who increased in shekels, gold etc was not tithed. It was not a part of the items considered HOLY and BELONGING to God

- It is why early gentile Christians DIDN'T TITHE

- They are NOT in hell because they did not tithe; they were NOT COMMANDED to TITHE.

- Wherever tithes are mentioned under the law i.e. whether the command or examples of what real Israelites did, they were always AGRIC PRODUCE to be eaten (except; pls refer to vs 31 where a fifth (i.e. a penalty) was added increasing the value from being a tenth).

*pls read the following [/b]where it shows only agric produce was commanded and tithed; [b]Israelites who increased differently to Lev 27 i.e., in shekels, gold etc DID NOT TITHE:

a. Lev 27:30-34
b. Num 10:37-39
c. Deut14:22-29
d. Deut 26:12
e. 2Chron31:5-10
f. Neh10:37-39
g. Neh13:5,12
h. Mal3:5-12
i. Matt 23:23

*see also Luke 18 which is where a hypothetical pharisee boasted of giving a 'tenth of all I get'. Some say he may have been boasting about giving a 10th of all his income i.e., not only agric produce. Pls read his example and see if he (the hypothetical Pharisee) was now issuing a new command to Israelites who increased in shekels or gold to tithe contrary to God's instruction which had been dutifully kept for 1,400yrs from the time of Moses to Jesus.

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”


*You may want to 'partially' copy the Israelites who tithed (as NOT ALL THE ISRAELITES tithed and you don't have the holy items commanded from the LAND in Lev 27); You may give 10% of your earnings but YOU CANNOT give that as a LAW to Christians [/b]and then disguise it as a COMMANDMENT from GOD to [b]ALL CHRISTIANS and then begin to judge people using 'a tithing yardstick' as the key to heaven and hell.

East:

"Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel" (1 Cor:13-14). Here Paul is restating the principle in the Old Testament that those who are ministers are to live by the funds that are paid into the Church. The offerings were to pay the expenses of the Church and the Tithe was to pay the wages of the ministers etc.

@East,
You are the one making a distinction between OFFERING & TITHES for Christians. The early gentile Christians didn't tithe neither did they say 'offerings are allocated for church expenses and tithes for wages for apostles'.

There is no such commandment.

Gentile Christians didn't tithe. A lot of Israelites didn't tithe as they were not commanded to. Not every 10th in Israel was holy & belonged to God neither were the robbers for not tithing.

@East,

Even though you've said it's voluntary, you use the word 'Pay' making it obligatory/compulsory.

You even go further than the law by saying Christians unlike Israelites, must not give tithes to orphans directly contrary to what God commanded in Deut 26. You are attempting to keep aspects of the law but shortchanging the orphans by creating a new law.

Jesus in Matt 23:23 spoke about tithing under the law. He didn't make a new law asking that they forsake the old Commandment which allowed the tither care for the widows, orphans, tithe holidays, etc.neither did He make a new Law commanding Christians to tithe to Pastors in the new way where Christians are prohibited from giving the newly commanded tithes to orphans.

13 Then thou shalt say before the Lord thy God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of mine house, and also[b] have given them unto the Levite, and unto the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all thy commandments [/b]which thou hast commanded me: I have not transgressed thy commandments, neither have I forgotten them

The Israelites were not prohibited from giving the tithes in Deut 26 to orphans directly, why create a new kind of giving called 'tithes' under grace where christians are prohibited from giving the 'new tithes' to orphans?

Are some of God's commandments more equal than others?

Since you say "Jesus is not saying that we should not pay tithes", did He exclude the tithes in Deut 26 when He mentioned tithing in Matt 23:23? Did He prohibit giving of tithes directly to orphans in Matt 23:23

@East,

I've copied this from a previous post in another thread (I'm not sure how to use the Nairaland quote).

I think it's relevant here. You can choose to give of your own volition your ten percent but can you say it is a law/commandment that christians MUST abide by or else they've failed God? Can you re-create God's tithing commandment (they were COMMANDS) and obey it to the letter and abide by the spirit of the commandment so that those GOD cared for are taken care of?

Does the spirit of tithing in modern christianity KILL THE ORPHAN by refusing them tithes and does the LETTER to the Israelites GIVE LIFE TO THE ORPHAN by giving them tithes by [b]COMMAND of the Lord?[/b]

Here's what I wrote on the other thread:

"The truth is that, the Letter of Tithing CANNOT be kept by Christians because God was specific in the way He defined it (He described it as HOLY and BELONGING to Him):

*Only produce HARVESTED in the Land of Isreal by Israelites (except the Levites) and animals (i.e. herds, flock) were to be Tithed.

Some say they keep the Spirit of Tithing, but it would seem NEW LAWS have been made that are enforced AS RIGIDLY and LEGALISTICALLY like the Letter.

The Letter which was a COMMAND to the Israelites was even kinder;

1. Only those crops harvested from LAND in Israel were tithed.
2. It excluded those who increased in ways other than agric produce (they were not COMMANDED to tithe shekels, gold etc)
3. Those who's animals increased by less than a 10th DIDN'T have to tithe at that stage e.g. if your animals increased by 18 you would tithe 1 animal
4. It remembered the Levites (they received tithes)
5. It remembered the widow, the orphan, the poor, the stranger (they received tithes)
6. It remembered the Tither (who ate of his tithe in celebration)
7. [b]There were Holidays (the 7th Year & the year of Jubilee) where the tither wouldn't tithe[/b]
8. Levites didn't tithe
9. Priests didn't tithe
9. Not Every Israelite tithed only those who increased per Lev 27

But today,even WITHOUT a COMMAND to Christians by God

Those who teach Christians to Tithe

1. Insist EVERY Christian MUST tithe or else he's robbed God.
2. Insist EVERY 10% on your INCOME for life is HOLY and BELONGS to the Lord.
3. Every 10% Income for LIFE MUST be tithed (or else according to some, a curse applies to the tither).
4. EVERY gift must be tithed.
5. Students must tithe school fees/pocket money from their parents
(In ancient Israel, the student's parents would have tithed at harvest and the student WOULN'T TITHE the items from the barn a second time!)
6. Some churches would not give promotions to their members or let them marry non tithers etc
7. The only tithe they remember is the Levitical Tithe AND SO
8. The tithe MUST ONLY be paid to Church/Pastor
9. The Christian MUST NOT give his tithe to widows, orphans, the poor etc or else it is NOT tithe.
10. The Christian MUST NOT eat his tithe.
11. Any deviation from the above would lead to penalties as the Christian is taught he has broken the hedge and the serpent/devourer WILL bite.
12. The Christian has no tithe holiday or else he's used what is holy and belongs to God.

(There are variations but the above is quite common)

The Spirit vs The Letter

It seems the Spirit here killeth (for at least the widow, the orphan and the poor) and the Letter giveth life (if you are poor).

* It's important to give as Christians but it's wrong when the scripture is tweaked to co-erce people. We should give lovingly, generously and sacrificially."

@ East,

1 Cor 9
13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the GOSPEL.


Maybe we should re-write/change the verse to:



13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the GOSPEL TEMPLE and ALTAR.


@East,

Those who preach the gospel should live of the GOSPEL.

We are not to recreate the TEMPLE in Jerusalem or ALTARS. Or else, we would need AARONS SONS etc

We should support those who preach the gospel by our giving.

Do you want to re-create all the ITEMS that was SERVED in the TEMPLE as food and all the ITEMS that was OFFERED on the ALTAR, in the EXACT SAME WAY??

East: i want you to see what Apostle Paul had to say about it:

Read 1Corinthians chapter 9 where Paul teaches on the financial support of the church, now see what he says in verse 8 "'Does not the Law say the same things""
(He is referring to the law of Moses and how the priest lived on tithes and offerings).

^^^^^

Can you @East say the prayer in Deut 26:13 before the Lord your God as the Israelites did BEFORE THE LORD THEIR GOD based on HIS COMMAND in Deut 26:12

Deut 26

13 Then say to the Lord your God:

“I (@East)[/b]have removed from my house the [b]sacred portion [/b]and have given it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow, according to all you commanded. [b]I have not turned aside from your commands nor have I forgotten any of them.

14 I (@East) have not eaten any of the sacred portion while I was in mourning, nor have I removed any of it while I was unclean, nor have I offered any of it to the dead. I have obeyed the Lord my God; I have done everything you commanded me. 15 Look down from heaven, your holy dwelling place, and bless your people Israel and the land you have given us as you promised on oath to our ancestors, a land flowing with milk and honey.”


- Have you (@East) removed from your house your TITHES of the SACRED PORTION?

- Have you given the tithes of the sacred portion [/b]to the following:

1. the levites
2. the foreigner
3. the widow
4. the orphan

- Have they all eaten and are they [b]satisfied?

- Have you turned aside from SOME OF THE COMMANDS of the LORD?

Are some commands more equal than others?

East: During the Law:

The Children of Isreal where commanded to tithe

- Leviticus, Numbers etc

Jesus also uphold the principle of tithing during His ministry

East:

Read your bible and you will know that tithes was not meant for the poor but for the Levites who worked at the temple

@East,

Can you seriously tell me that Jesus RULED OUT these TITHES and tell me where JESUS RULED THEM OUT?

Deut 27:12 "When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, [b]you shall give it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow[/b]so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.”

Image123:
Ha, you late. I already gave mine ti Another. it would have been considered as your increase BTW

Ok oh, I hear you. Next time, bring it to me so I can 'do likewise' per your instructions. I'll remember to 'do likewise' by ONLY tithing a 10th of your tithe. NONE of my other increase needs tithing since you say I should do like the levites.

^^^^

Emmmm?? I'm confused? Are you saying after the Israelite tithers 'paid' the food items to whom it was due, i.e., the Levites, Widows, Orphans, foreigners and the Tither; they all stared at the tithe for life? Abi you're thinking in terms of the 'mint' (cash) in your post below? lol. My bro, they 'ATE' per command of the Lord.

About that Makossa, bro, this your obsession with makossa, you sure say u never backslide . And I'm not talking about backsliding per Michael Jackson's moonwalk

Image123:
nah, I don't do anise or cummin. mint maybe, the cash waS mint. hehehe. You should reduce this makossa classes, i thought you said you're a priest.

Image123:
why will He use 'pay' tithe if it was eaten?

Bros, since all the tithes were by command of the Lord since it was HOLY and BELONGED to the Lord, they always were 'paying' when they met the obligation on what they did with Tithes (according to His command). But if you insist, the Pharisee who tithed mint and cumin could have been 'paying' the following obligation:

Deut 26:12

"When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied."


- So, Jesus in referring to 'tithes of mint, cumin etc', could have been referring to this:

Deut 26:13

"Then say to the Lord your God: “I have removed from my house the sacred portion and have given it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow, according to all you commanded. I have not turned aside from your commands nor have I forgotten any of them.


- At the end of the day among the Israelites, TITHES were always EATEN either by the LEVITES, WIDOWS, ORPHANS, FOREIGNER or the TITHER(Deut 14:26) by command of the Lord.

@Bro Image, the tithe you boasted to me you paid in post 917, hope you remembered the fatherless and the widow also? Since you are trying to keep the COMMAND of the Lord. Or will you be robbing God if you give it to them to eat from it?

Or have you forgotten some of His commands?

Image123:
the levites gave tithes in Abraham but still had to give when they came 'alive'. Go and do likewise ye.

lol bro, don't worry, when you tithe to me, I'll remove a tenth from your tithe and do likewise . I don't have to tithe from my own increase since you say I should do likewise lol. I shall simply pay a tithe of your tithe. Pls point the way to Aaron's sons so I can present it them

^^
Wow, I never thought of that, thanks for the idea. I've learnt so much from both sides of the discussion.

@Goshen, bro Image already paid tithes in Abram to Melchisedec.. Even Levites didn't have to pay again. Since Hebrews gives no new instructions to pay, bro image is being a cheerful giver. Never mind him trying to dress it up to impress God.

Bro Debosky, our brother has forgotten that Jesus did not specifically say 'this (temple tithe) you must do', He could have meant 'festival tithe' and bro Image would be well within his rights to eat his mint & cumin lol. He can even sell it & buy anything his soul lusteth after

^^^^^^

Bros, This one you're not comprehending my post, shey you never wack your tithe abi you carry am buy strong drink per Deut 14:26

@Image,

When looking at the scriptures, I've studied it from 3 perspectives

1. What obtained in the past (i.e. Historical facts - on those, we have no control over)
2. Current practices (i.e. How christians using those facts, apply them in their lives - on those we have no control; they're just what people do currently)
3. Ideal/Suggested practices

1. History - Now we can study what obtained in the past e.g. what tithes were commanded to the Israelites/Examples of what they did. If I (@Jem1), refer to that, e.g. that it was crops etc, @Image's grouse with me doesn't change anything. It is just what it is, history. Your suggestion that God gave them the command because they were mainly an agrarian community may well suit you BUT it would only be a suggestion (afteral Abraham had given other kinds of items once according to the bible and God could have referred to it). It would not remove the truth of History; that they were commanded by God and the biblical examples of them paying tithes is of them giving agric produce. Were there people who didn't increase in agric produce, yes. Were they commanded to tithe, No. Were there biblical examples of Israelites tithing other things, No. Was every 10% of Increase holy and did it belong to God by command or by example, No. The early gentile Christians didn't Tithe to the temple neither did they tithe to the Apostles. These are historical facts - on those we (@Image, @Jem1 etc) have no control.

2. Current practices - What Christians have taken from God's command to the Israelites is held up as a mirror to see if it reflects what the Israelites were commanded to do and what they Israelites did. Now it is not expected that it would be a mirror image, why? Because some key parts of the command are missing e.g. the Land of Israel which was crucial in the past, no levites, no sons of Aaron to receive the Lord's offering of a 10th of the 10th etc (remember those who failed the letter were cursed in Malachi). And so it is IMPOSSIBLE for Christians TO KEEP THE COMMANDMENT to the letter. Because we cannot keep the letter neither are we designed to keep the letter, God's command to the Israelites CANNOT apply to the letter to us. In studying current practices, have we best kept to spirit of tithing? It is here we can have a bit of a debate as to whether, in taking care of our ministers/the widow, the orphan, the poor, the tither/, SHOULD we stick to tithing 10% or 23% (or even set percentages) in meeting the needs as was done in ancient Israel? Afterall, EACH 10TH (whether for Levites/Widows, the poor/tither) was HOLY and BELONGED to God. Remember, in Israel they were COMMANDS. If you've seen a Legislation (law)you know it's meant to be kept to the letter. If you are doing something else outside of the letter, you are no longer keeping the law (e.g. no longer keeping the COMMANDMENT specifically from God on tithing). From current practices, it would appear NEW LAWS where all & every 10% increase is holy and belongs to the Lord or else the Christian is robbing God; NEW LAWS which Christians MUST KEEP TO THE LETTER (very dis-similar to God's letter) are taught to keep a MANDATORY 10% for the churches/Pastors. (WHO gave this COMMAND? Certainly NOT GOD, it is man-made).

The above is what obtains as current practice. On the above, @Jem1 has no control. It is just what it is, if I observe it, @Image getting mad at me doesn't change the fact of what obtains today.

3. Ideal/Suggested practices - This is where we differ. You insist on keeping the MANDATORY NEW LAW disguised as the spirit of the tithing commandment. Mocking me that I'm saying what I never said (i.e. giving the impression that I'm saying Christians should now start giving agric produce) is just a distraction. My suggestions have always been based on the fact that, Christians are not under an obligation to keep a tithing commandment they were NEVER DESIGNED to be able to keep ab initio (from the get go/beginning). Christians CANNOT be under a curse for something NOT COMMANDED TO THEM (same way those who increased in shekels etc, Levites, Priests, gentile Christians were not commanded to tithe). The early gentile Christians didn't Tithe to the temple neither did they tithe to the Apostles. The man who needs to pay hospital bills for his sick and dying child should not be lied to that he would be stealing from God if he pays hospital bills with the 10% instead of giving it to church/pastor.

If a christian chooses not to give e.g. 10%, he would not be stealing what is holy & belongs to God, if on the other hand he decides to give, it should be of his own volition not because of the fear of curses not directed at him by God.

Christians should give loving, generously, sacrificially and with a cheerful heart. Christians should remember to meet the needs to their ministers, the poor, the widow, the orphan etc as it is not a competition between both camps (i.e. the church and the vulnerable/needy/downtrodden). We should remember when we stand before Him what he would ask per Matt 25:36-41; we can do that as part of a church community but ulitmately, we will stand before Him, alone (happily, joyfully).

Image123:
What dry point are you up to again. Which one is tithe. Before na pay and give, Abram and Abraham, now na tithe. For your mind brotha
Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithe[b]s[/b] of all.
The 's' dey hurt your eyes abi? Have you paid your tithe? I have paid mine oooooooooooooo. Like i said, my posts on this thread are numbered and may not be as explanatory as before, so kunle stop dreaming. And Jem Jem1, what's up with Apostle Paul talking about sowing and reaping in the NT BTW, he is talking about crops right, keeping the standard of the Levitico XX? You guys need a renewal of your minds, all of you.

Thank you ApostlePat. Anyone who truly loves the Lord and seeks to please him will naturally be a giving person. I pray we continue to walk in the newness of life and walk worthy of He who has shed abroad our hearts His love.

Pastor Kun:

This tithing from gift variation being added to th scam in some churches is another thing that really ticks me off. even the Israelites that received the original instruction never tithed from gifts. Yet christians that have no business tithing are being manipulated to tithe of their gifts. It's really so nauseating. But I guess it serves some of them right for not being diligent enough to study the word for themselves.

The truth is that, the Letter of Tithing CANNOT be kept by Christians because God was specific in the way He defined it (He described it as HOLY and BELONGING to Him):

*Only produce HARVESTED in the Land of Isreal by Israelites (except the Levites) and animals (i.e. herds, flock) were to be Tithed.

Some say they keep the Spirit of Tithing, but it would seem NEW LAWS have been made that are enforced AS RIGIDLY and LEGALISTICALLY like the Letter.

The Letter which was a COMMAND to the Israelites was even kinder;

1. Only those crops harvested from LAND in Israel were tithed.
2. It excluded those who increased in ways other than agric produce (they were not COMMANDED to tithe shekels, gold etc)
3. Those who's animals increased by less than a 10th DIDN'T have to tithe at that stage e.g. if your animals increased by 18 you would tithe 1 animal
4. It remembered the Levites (they received tithes)
5. It remembered the widow, the orphan, the poor, the stranger (they received tithes)
6. It remembered the Tither (who ate of his tithe in celebration)
7. There were Holidays (the 7th Year & the year of Jubilee) where the tither wouldn't tithe
8. Levites didn't tithe
9. Priests didn't tithe
9. Not Every Israelite tithed only those who increased per Lev 27

But today,even WITHOUT a COMMAND to Christians by God

Those who teach Christians to Tithe

1. Insist EVERY Christian MUST tithe or else he's robbed God.
2. Insist EVERY 10% on your INCOME for life is HOLY and BELONGS to the Lord.
3. Every 10% Income for LIFE MUST be tithed (or else according to some, a curse applies to the tither).
4. EVERY gift must be tithed.
5. Students must tithe school fees/pocket money from their parents
(In ancient Israel, the student's parents would have tithed at harvest and the student WOULN'T TITHE the items from the barn a second time!)
6. Some churches would not give promotions to their members or let them marry non tithers etc
7. The only tithe they remember is the Levitical Tithe AND SO
8. The tithe MUST ONLY be paid to Church/Pastor
9. The Christian MUST NOT give his tithe to widows, orphans, the poor etc or else it is NOT tithe.
10. The Christian MUST NOT eat his tithe.
11. Any deviation from the above would lead to penalties as the Christian is taught he has broken the hedge and the serpent/devourer WILL bite.
12. The Christian has no tithe holiday or else he's used what is holy and belongs to God.

(There are variations but the above is quite common)

The Spirit vs The Letter

It seems the Spirit here killeth (for at least the widow, the orphan and the poor) and the Letter giveth life (if you are poor).

* It's important to give as Christians but it's wrong when the scripture is tweaked to co-erce people. We should give lovingly, generously and sacrificially.

Image123:
nuclear, don't disappoint. The nation of islam has similar meaning to the nation of Israel? you kid a lot, let's be serious please.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Gen 49:2 Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father.
1King 18:31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:

how on earth we want to twist that to mean a couple of priests is very befuddling.

God: 'Ye have robbed me'

Israel: ‘In what way have we robbed You?’

God: In tithes and offerings

God: Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation

God: Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house

God: I shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field

1. God accused them of robbing Him of TITHES and offerings and
2. Inorder to stop robbing Him,
3. They were to bring TITHES of MEAT (Food)
4. To the STOREHOUSE
5. He would make sure their fruits from the ground/vines would not be destroyed

When God said 'this whole nation';

]*God was specific about WHAT they robbed Him of, therefore:[/

a. The Babies in Israel DIDN'T physically ROB Him of Tithes neither did they have to start bringing TITHES as soon as they were born because God said 'this whole nation'.
b. Those who increased in Shekels, cash, diamonds etc DID NOT ROB GOD of TITHES neither did they have to start bringing Him Tithes of shekels, cash etc
c. Those who's animals increased by 6 DID NOT have to kill off the 6 and Tithe of the meat (They still had to wait until the 10th even though they increased by 6)
d. Priests DID NOT have to now Tithe because God said 'this whole nation'.
e. Israelites OUTSIDE of the Land of Israel DIDN'T have to TITHE agric produce grown OUTSIDE of the Land of Israel

It therefore means 'This whole nation' can be said to have been used in the same way one would use e.g.
- e.g 'The nation of Nigeria has won a football match'.
- It doesn't mean @Image or @Jem1 or @Nuclear or even babies born today played the game physically
- The ones who played physically would be given medals or cash not @Image etc
- They are the ones responsible for the goals required for winning
- One cannot insist all 160 million Nigerians have the responsibility to score goals at the said match before it can be said 'Nigeria won'.
- It would be right if one says 'the Super Eagles won' or one can still say 'Nigeria won'.

Only those ISRAELITES with the items meant for the STOREHOUSE in the temple i.e. 'food' (meat), fruit from the ground/vine per Lev 27:30-34 who had the HOLY items BELONGING to the Lord per His commandment physically ROBBED Him of TITHEs.

They are they ones who can stop the robbery by bringing into the Storehouse the Tithes of food (Holy items) belonging to the Lord.

'This whole nation' has to be put in context. The responsibility for correcting the error still lay with the few who broke the commandment of God.

It was NOT A NEW COMMANDMENT for the whole nation to start tithing 'shekels, cash etc' or for babies or priests to start tithing.

There are about 250 ethnic groups in Nigeria, I personally think it smacks of arrogance to say a particular tribe owns soups that cut across ethnicities like Ogbono, Okro, Egusi. Some of these groups have their own distinct names for the soups but use the more popular names (some of the distinct names will die off for lack of use in a few generations if they haven't died in some groups already).

***It therefore means that

1. The Israelites INCREASED in agric produce
2. The Israelites INCREASED in ways other than FOOD e.g. cash, shekels, gold, etc
3. The Israelites were commanded to set apart tithes of agric produce Lev 27:30-34, Mal 3:10
4. The Israelites tithed food per command of the Lord 2 Chron 31:4-10, Num 18:21-30, Deut, Neh etc
5. There was NO INSTRUCTION/COMMANDMENT to tithe 'OTHER ITEMS' apart from agric produce
6. There are NO EXAMPLES of ISRAELITES tithing 'OTHER ITEMS' other than food per Lev 27. Apart from maybe the 'non-living, hypothetical,self-righteous man in the parable of the pharisee in Luk 18:9-14
7. We can then conclude that:

NOT EVERY 10% INCREASE IN ISRAEL WAS HOLY AND BELONGED TO GOD AS TITHE.

ONLY AGRIC PRODUCE according to Lev 27:30-34 were HOLY AND BELONG TO GOD

NOT ALL ISRAELITES TITHED, ONLY THOSE WITH THE ITEMS in Lev 27:30-34

THERE IS NO COMMANDMENT THAT ALL/EVERY 10% INCREASE MUST BE TITHED (whether for Christians or Israelites)

NOT EVERY 10% INCREASE for CHRISTIANS IS HOLY AND BELONGS TO GOD AS TITHE. The early gentile CHRISTIANS DIDN'T TITHE!

Those who insist every Christian MUST TITHE are DECLARING a man made doctrine

Those who insist the man earning N5,000 whose son is dying and needs to add his tithe 10% (N500) to what he has to pay for hospital bills, those who say HE MUST NOT DO SO because the man would be robbing God are lying! That he must give the N500 to pastor.

If you DONT teach the entire truth on tithing; that it is not compulsory, that NOT EVERY TENTH belongs to God, that early gentile Christians DIDN'T TITHE, thaT EVEN ISRAELITES who were COMMANDED by God to TITHE had some ISRAELITES who were EXEMPT as not every 10th in Israel was HOLY and BELONGED to God; If you don't teach that, you would be keeping them in darkness regarding the TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD; You would be keeping them in blindness - DO NOT PUT A STUMBLING BLOCK infront of the BLIND but FEAR your God

Do not allow that Child die due to MAN-MADE commandments that he will rob God if he uses his N500 for hospital bills.

Image123: iguess Abraham is not a part of your history, also 2chronicles 31.5 and[b] Malachi[/b] that mentions bringing ALL the tithes.

- Now regarding Malachi and 'bringing ALL the TITHE in your quote above, God DECLARED that they robbed HIM of tithes and then in Mal 3:10 CONFIRMED the TITHE as FOOD! God in His infinite mercy stayed true to food! And you attempt to say I lie?? Is it not in your bible?? @Jem1 didn't write that bit lol!

I know it would have suited your purpose that they robbed Him of 'tithes of other things', 'UNFORTUNATELY', He REFUSED to declare that they robbed Him of tithes of wages, cash, gold, silver, shekels etc. If you do that, YOU WOULD BE ADDING TO SCRIPTURE!

Tbh, I know WHY you BELIEVE it matters so much that they MUST have tithed OTHER THINGS (apart from food) even though it was NEVER COMMANDED as tithe for the ISRAELITES neither do we have ANY EXAMPLES in the scriptures of them tithing other things.

- It's because you WOULD HAVE US believe EVERY 10% INCREASE for the Israelites was HOLY and BELONGED to God and therefore, EVERY ISRAELITE TITHED - NOT TRUE bro!

[/b]Mal 3 proves even 1,000 years after GOD gave HIS COMMAND, HE STILL STUCK to the [b]SANCTITY/SACREDNESS of His Command

See the COMMAND BELOW

30 “‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, BELONGS to the Lord; it is HOLY to the Lord. 31 Whoever would redeem any of their tithe must add a fifth of the value to it. 32 Every tithe of the[b] herd[/b] and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod —will be HOLY to the Lord. 33 No one may pick out the good from the bad or make any substitution. If anyone does make a substitution, both the animal and its substitute become HOLY and cannot be redeemed. ’”

34 These are the COMMANDS the Lord gave Moses at Mount Sinai for the Israelites.


- @Image, What is HOLY & BELONGS to God WAS DETERMINED by GOD ALMIGHTY

See how even the SUBSTITUTE animal in vs 33 BECOMES HOLY by COMMANDMENT of the Lord.

@Image knows that redeemed items were ONLY ALLOWED as HOLY and tithe after a fifth was added rendering them to be more than 10% (a penalty)

@Image CANNOT re-write scripture and determine that shekels, cash, gold, silver etc were COMMANDED as HOLY to the Lord as tithe by COMMAND to the ISRAELITES.

@Image has NO EXAMPLES of them being told in Malachi 3 that they robbed him of tithes of shekels, cash, gold etc EXCEPT FOOD as stated in the bible.

@Image has NO EXAMPLES of THE ISRAELITES tithing 'OTHER THINGS' outside of the COMMANDED items even 1,400years in the time of Christ - except for the parable of the non-living, hypothetical, self-righteous man in the parable who was NOT JUSTIFIED (Luk 18:9-14). Every time the examples of those who tithed in Israel was written in the scriptures, it was referring to agric produce and were to be eaten or were eaten.

If he does that he would be re-writing HISTORY!

Image123: iguess Abraham is not a part of your history,

I'm surprised you didn't see this:

Jem1: @Image,
You would have to go to ABRAHAM's one off example which we WERE NOT told was COMMANDED (Unless you want to read that into scripture).
The bible shows him as being extremely successful EVEN BEFORE the one off tithe.

Now regarding 2 Chron 31:5 in your quote below, it was also agric produce for eating

Image123: iguess Abraham is not a part of your history, also 2chronicles 31.5 [/b]and Malachi that mentions bringing ALL the tithes. All that matters to you is to obey your interpretation that only crop and animal was acceptable, a point not stated anywhere in the bible.

@Image, I know you know that tithe in 2 Chron 31:5 was eaten. Because I already showed in the previous page that 'the [b]tithe of all things' [/b]in 2 Chron 31:5 was agric produce BECAUSE Azariah the priest [b]CONFIRMED they ATE [/b]them.

2 Chron 31
4 Moreover he commanded the people that dwelt in Jerusalem to give the portion of the priests and the Levites, that they might be encouraged in the law of the Lord.
5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and [b]the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.
6 And concerning the children of Israel and Judah, that dwelt in the cities of Judah, they also brought in the tithe of oxen and sheep, and the tithe of holy things which were consecrated unto the Lord their God, and laid them by heaps.
7 In the third month they began to lay the foundation of the heaps, and finished them in the seventh month.
8 And when Hezekiah and the princes came and saw the heaps, they blessed the Lord, and his people Israel.
9 Then Hezekiah questioned with the priests and the Levites concerning the HEAPS.
10 And Azariah the chief priest of the house of Zadok answered him, and said, Since the people began to bring the offerings into the house of the Lord, we have had enough to eat, and have left plenty[/b]: for the Lord hath blessed his people; and [b]that which is left is this great store.

It shows the following:

1. The Levites and Priests made the items collected in 2 Chron 31:5&6 into HEAPS
2. Hezekiah and the princes asked them about the HEAPS collected in 2 Chron 31:5&6
3. Azariah the chief priest said CONCERINING THE HEAPS from 2 Chron 31:5&6 that they had lots to EAT[/b]and plenty left over.
4. The [b]HEAPS are the plenty left over after eating

**You only 'EAT' things like the ones defined in Lev 27:30,32 (crops/animals)

@Image,

I think you will continue to struggle if you try to re-write History.

History says Israelites were commanded to tithe agric products according to the bible - You agree

History says all the examples we have were of people who tithed agric products to be EATEN according to the bible - You agree apart from Luke 18:9-14 (and maybe Mal 3 where you say God mentioning the tithes they robbed HIM of as food, crop etc don't matter)

History says in the bible there were others who increased in other ways apart from the COMMANDED items in Lev 27 e.g. cash, wages, gold etc

History does not give us EXAMPLES in the BIBLE of those who tithed the said cash, wages, gold etc. EXCEPT maybe a non-living, hypothetical, self righteous man in Luke 18:9-14

BUT STILL - You do not want to limit yourself to THE HISTORICAL FACTS because You say it didn't really matter to God what HE COMMANDED and that EVERYONE MUST HAVE TITHED

1. Even though you have NO EXAMPLES (unless you want to add the non-living, hypothetical, self-righteous man who was NOT JUSTIFIED in Luke 18:12)
2. Even though you would have to add such conjecture to RE-CREATE the tithing doctrine.

WHY does it matter SO MUCH to you that they should have tithed OTHER THINGS? AFTERALL YOU ARE NOT trying to keep the letter?

Is it because you have deemed EVERY 10% INCREASE for Christians as HOLY and belonging to God.

Unfortunately, the BIBLE does NOT support YOUR NOTION, not every 10% increase for the the Israelites was Holy and belonged to God! Only those in Lev 27:30-34!

You would have to go to ABRAHAM's one off example which we WERE NOT told was COMMANDED (Unless you want to read that into scripture).
The bible shows him as being extremely successful EVEN BEFORE the one off tithe.

You cannot keep the letter (it was agric produce per lev 27 in the land of Israel)
You do not want to keep the letter - good!
You say you keep the SPIRIT of taking care of those who minister

WHY A 10% RULE ON every increase compulsorily (according to some any deviation will lead to curses and a devourer contrary to the Word of God)?

@Image,

"God said the whole nation had robbed Him, jem 1 says its not the whole nation."

I think it's very disingenuous giving people the impression I woke up and said the above!! Why didn't you give people the truth? I'm beginning to suspect you're not an honourable man

You quoted Malachi in response to my comment below:

"Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even[b] this whole nation[/b].

I had said "Stop trying to give uninformed people the IMPRESSION THAT ALL ISREALITES TITHED. A lot were EXEMPT and WERE NOT CONSIDERED ROBBERS OR CURSED neither were they constantly afraid of the DEVOURER. In fact THEY WERE AS BLESSED AS THOSE WHO had Land and tith, then you quoted as your answer the above Malachi 3:8-9 scripture.

Jem1: @Image
The above is your answer to my comment (START QUOTE Jem1)"Stop trying to give uninformed people the IMPRESSION THAT ALL ISREALITES TITHED. A lot were EXEMPT and WERE NOT CONSIDERED ROBBERS OR CURSED neither were they constantly afraid of the DEVOURER. In fact THEY WERE AS BLESSED AS THOSE WHO had Land and tithed"(END QUOTE Jem1)

The GOSPEL BIBLE according to @Image!!!

Even though Malachi 3 PROVES it was tithes according to Lev 27:30,32,34; YOU (inorder to fulfill your agenda) would BLATANTLY lie in your interpretation of "this whole nation"

You know that the tithes referred to regarding ROBBING GOD were as DEFINED IN Lev 27.

HOW do we know this? See the items highlighted in my quote of Malachi 3 below.

(God is NOT A MAN @Image. He did NOT CURSE those who never broke HIS COMMANDMENT. He never cursed WAGE earners etc, i.e. people who didn't have the food items referred to below! He was not unaware of their existence! He just CHOSE NOT TO ask them to tithe, deal with it bro!

Mal 3:8 “Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me.“But you ask, ‘How are we robbing you?’“In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse —your whole nation—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food [/b]in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the [b]floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not drop their fruit before it is ripe, ” says the Lord Almighty.

According to your lie, "this whole nation who are ROBBING GOD" NOW means that the follwoing Israelites were commanded!

Obviously you (@Image) would have to include/replace in your (@Image) version:

Malachi 3:10 "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food (wages, shekels, gold, diamonds etc)in my house";

BECAUSE ONLY THEN would the groups below be part of this "whole nation" which you are reading out of context.

- Hired Workers did NOT tithe their wages
- Fishermen did not tithe
- Miners and the minerals were not tithed
- Carpenters/Construction Workers
- Traders who made/sold jewellery
- Priests
- Israelites without land e.g. the poor would receive tithe NOT PAY TITHE

I know you would prefer to HAVE PEOPLE BELIEVE that ALL Israelites tithed BECAUSE if they DIDN'T it WOULD SHOW UP THE LIE where Pastors teach people that ALL CHRISTIANS MUST TITHE EVERY INCOME/INCREASE or else they (Christians)are ROBBERS!!

NOT every tenth (10%) was HOLY & BELONGED to God!!

If they Know that even the Israelites who were COMMANDED at Mount Sinai DIDNT HAVE TO TITHE EVERY INCOME, it puts paid to the lie that CHRISTIANS ARE ROBBERS IF THEY DONT TITHE EVERY INCREASE!

You know the groups above were not a part of this "whole nation" you are attempting to read OUT OF CONTEXT!

See more people below who DIDN'T HAVE TO TITHE

1. Those who's animals increased by less than 10! So if your animals increased by 6, you don't kill some so you can tithe. They didn't tithe at that point and WERE NOT ROBBERS
2. Those who were Gentiles (yes even gentile CHRISTIANS).

IT takes NOTHING from You to admit their practice in biblical times as confirmed by historical facts in the bible.

So today you come with the quote below out of context and trying to portray me in a bad light? I laugh in pidgin!

Image123:
God said the whole nation had robbed Him, jem 1 says its not the whole nation. It's not very hard for me to choose who to believe. you can continue with your conjectures, suppositions and ideas.
(GNB) A curse is on all of you because the whole nation is cheating me.
(GW) So a curse is on you because the whole nation is cheating me!

Here's my answer:

I said you were reading it out of CONTEXT.

HOW?

By giving the impression that 'the whole nation' being said to have ROBBED HIM IN TITHES AND OFFERINGS NOW MEANS even those who had increased in CASH, DIAMONDS, GOLD etc owed him a tithe 10% of cash, diamonds, gold etc (We know NOT every 10% increase was HOLY and BELONGED to God per Lev 27:30-34

See the ITEMS God called His tithe


[i]Mal 3
8 “Will a man rob God?Yet you have robbed Me!But you say,‘In what way have we robbed You?’
In tithes and offerings.
9 You are cursed with a curse,For you have robbed Me,Even this whole nation.
10 Bring ALL THE TITHES into the storehouse,That there may be food in My house,And try Me now in this,”
Says the Lord of hosts,
“If I will not open for you the windows of heavenAnd pour out for you such blessingThat there will not be room enough to receive it.
11 “And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes,So that he will not destroy the fruit of your ground,Nor shall the vine [/b]fail to bear[b] fruit for you in the field,”
[/i]Says the Lord of hosts;

The ones who ROBBED Him of HIS tithe robbed him of tithes of FOOD, FRUIT, some versions say MEAT (Consistent with HIS COMMANDMENT see Lev 27:30,32,34)(If you have another 'non commandment to tithe other things' apart from Luke 18:12 or Abraham's tithe, let me know.

I'm sorry Image, HE never added that they robbed him of cash, gold, diamonds etc. They simply were NOT COMMANDED to tithe outside of Lev 27 definition neither do we have examples of people choosing to do otherwise. If they do, it would be of their own volition NOT per commandment of the Lord.

If you do add the above (i.e implying that they robbed him of cash, gold, diamonds etc), You would be adding to the scripture. I know you've said you want to keep to the SPIRIT not the LETTER all well and good, their is no requirement that it MUST [/b]BE 10% to take care of ministers.


p.s Did you deliberately remove the line I drew accross 'FOOD' here when you quoted me earlier or is it nairaland? sorry if I'm accusing you wrongly.

Jem1: @Image
Malachi 3:10 "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be [b]food (wages, shekels, gold, diamonds etc)in my house";

Image123: Obviously, no one is denying that tithes were given of crops and animals, the issue is that it involved MORE THAN crops and animals. if that's the point i'm trying to prove, i do not need to be proving or quoting that they gave tithes of crops and animals. we all agree to that ithink. What i showed or highlighted was the FACT that tithe was given in other forms other than crops and animals and it was not/NEVER rejected or disapproved. And i have consistently said that NOBODY would go to hell or be punished by God for giving tithes of things other than crops and animals.

[quote author=Jem1] So here we have the ONLY portion @Image can cling on to as EVIDENCE that GOD COMMANDED A TITHE OF items apart from AGRIC PRODUCE; i.e the PHARISEES EXAMPLE!

[quote author=Image123] It was not a 'command' in the sense that you define commands. the passage simply shows that it was not absurd in the times of Jesus to give tithes, or to give them from one's income or gains.

The only example OF IT EVER INVOLVING MORE THAN CROPS AND ANIMALS is your example in Luke 18?

Lets read

Luke 18:9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

- Goodluck emulating a man in the parable (NOT EVEN A REAL PERSON) who was trying to display his self-rigtheousness. A HYPOTHETICAL man Jesus castigated.

If he tithed other things apart from agric produce, that CERTAINLY is NOT by command of the Lord. He might be your example (THE ONLY ONE) but excuse those who dont believe it's sufficient to justify todays tithing COMMANDMENT not to use 10% of a tither's income for hospital bills for a dying child if that's all the tither has, thank you.

- It's already been confirmed that the only time money was ACCEPTED AS TITHE was when it was REDEEMED by COMMAND OF THE LORD, by adding a fifth! It was NO LONGER 10%. Every other time we encounter the Moses' Tithe, it was to be eaten.

The two items i.e. 1. Agric produce and 2. The redeemed money were COMMANDED via Lev 27:31-34

The only other example is Abraham's ONE-OFF TITHE given after he was already a successful man. The tithe was not A PREREQUISITE to his SUCCESS!

- If you see Zikky's post, tithe was NOT STRICTLY DEFINED as a tenth 10%.

Zikkyy:
Not all the time sir. Tithe as a tenth was created by man, God did not say it will always be a tenth. If we follow God's definition of tithe (Leviticus), you find that that God's tithe is not always a tenth It ranges from zero to 10% with the possibility of increasing your total tithe cost to 12% when exercise the option to cash-in your tithe and pay additional penalty/fine of 2%. for example (edit: reference to Jem1 post above) the shepherd with an increase of 9 animals will pay zero tithe, one with an increase of let say 18 animals will submit one (about 6%) as tithe. If we decide to push it further, God's definition of 'annual tithe' will amount to a maximum of 20% (22% with penalty) and 30% every third year.

A self created/imposed obligation to render a tenth of your income to God via remittance to your pastor is not bad, what's bad is when the pastor preach this man made/defined ritual as God's instruction

Image123: plus the Word of God NEVER FORBIDS tithe of things other than crops and animals, only antitihers do. i obey the Word of God, not antitithers.

Forbidding the Israelites The quotes were based on what the Israelites did ( Lev 27, Deut, Num 18, 2 Chron) how do you mean forbid them? They chose to follow the commandment on Mt Sinai by consistently tithing things that can be eaten according to the scriptures we've looked at. Or are you talking about money when they redeemed it and added a fifth? Or are you talking about today?? My grouse for today you know, it's the way it's taught without giving the full truth, lying that every 10% is HOLY & BELONGS to God when even in biblical times it was not so, it is a NEW COMMANDMENT by today's teachers and they tie it to calamities befalling people who they accuse of 'stealing' the 10% errorneously declared as being holy and belonging to GOD.

The following Israelites

WAGE EARNERS who earned money increased
People who had mined, some who had gold, diamonds etc increased
The poor gleaned the fields and increased (they received tithes)
Priests increased
Those who's lambs increased by six etc increased
etc

They were NOT COMMANDED [/b]by the LORD to tithe (give 10%)
They were [b]NOT CURSED IN MALACHI [/b]for robbing God of crop, fruit, meat etc!
Neither DO WE HAVE [b]EXAMPLES in the bible of them tithing!

NOT EVERY 10% WAS HOLY AND BELONGED TO THE LORD
NOT EVERY 10% WAS HOLY AND BELONGED TO THE LORD

@Pastor Kunle @Debosky @Goshen @Zikky @BERNIMOORE @Enigma and many others

I just want to thank you for taking your time to debate this issue on Nairaland. When I first stumbled on the argument, my first reaction was surprise at people whom I felt were simplistically challenging a doctrine whose foundation was sure in the Word. I grabbed my bible and searched the scriptures.

I've learnt by following patiently the argument from both sides. For that, I also have to thank people like Pilgrim, Wordtalk, Joagbaje, Image, Snowwy, and a host of other noble brothers. Some are like me in their study. I walked through several stages when following the argument; through each step in trying to find the biblical foundation for the tithing doctrine for Christians, my firm desire was for it to be rooted in the Word of God.

The tithing doctrine is preached relentlessly and CONFIRMED by great men to be COMPULSORY, a 10th of every increase DOES NOT BELONG TO YOU but belongs to GOD and the Malachi Curse very like the proverbial sword of damocles hangs over the Christian, daring you to miss tithing by a jot. The windows of heavens blessings belong to you for 'giving back to GOD' via pastors HIS 10%.

So rigidly is it enforced, people are denied church promotion, marriage, burial etc if they are not tithers, some will NOT GIVE to non-tithers because they are NOT fertile ground/or they don't want the curse attached to non-tithers to transfer to them.

It at first appeared that the doctrine was rooted in the WORD because it had bible verses quoted (sadly Mal 3 most profusely) to support it.

And also who wouldn't want the oracles of God we have in our Pastors/Bishops/Teachers to be right everytime.

Unfortunately, they ARE NOT GOD. They are men of God. They are but men.

As sure as the Lord is, His Word will forever be exalted above every one who decrees a contrary doctrine using His name; His Word will be exalted above every proclamation COMMANDED to HIS people contrary to His word.

- Do you want people to follow the example in the scriptures of those who tithed?

Then teach them the entire truth. That there were men who lived in ISRAEL (some who strode like collosus) rich in silver and gold who WERE NOT commanded to tithe the silver or the gold. That NOT EVERY 10% was HOLY and belonged to God per commandment of the Lord. That Abraham's example CANNOT translate to the compulsory, malachi 3 curse ridden definition given above. Let them know it is voluntary and NO CURSE awaits them for not 'PAYING'. I think some MOG underestimate Christians and underestimate God. That HE would do what HE says HE would do; without co-ercing the people using half-truths, without giving them the bread of fear.

What I know is the half-truths will RULE because our people are a people steeped in SUPERSTITION. Who wouldn't want to ensure the hedge is not broken so the proverbial serpent will not bite. The 10% is wrongly preached as the glue that will fix the gap.

Fears of blood-sucking demons on roads causing accidents are dangled temptingly during sermons (the tithe the sure way to protect against them); TURNING THE PEOPLE away from the reality of THEIVING POLITICIANS who won't fix the roads, turning the people away from those WHO STEAL THE CHILDREN'S BREAD from the nations coffers ensuring there are NO GOOD HEALTH FACILITIES- BEHOLD THE REAL WINSHES AND WISARDS.

And so the poor man earning N5,000 with the sick and dying child will give 'God's 10%' back to him via pastor because he does not want to be robber. He is taught that even though he desperately needs the N500 to add to the amounts for treatment at hospital, HE MUST NOT GIVE IT TO THE DOCTOR. Best allow the child to die.

@Image

Image123:
Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

The above is your answer to my comment (START QUOTE Jem1)"Stop trying to give uninformed people the IMPRESSION THAT ALL ISREALITES TITHED. A lot were EXEMPT and WERE NOT CONSIDERED ROBBERS OR CURSED neither were they constantly afraid of the DEVOURER. In fact THEY WERE AS BLESSED AS THOSE WHO had Land and tithed"(END QUOTE Jem1)

The GOSPEL BIBLE according to @Image!!!

Even though Malachi 3 PROVES it was tithes according to Lev 27:30,32,34; YOU (inorder to fulfill your agenda) would BLATANTLY lie in your interpretation of "this whole nation"

You know that the tithes referred to regarding ROBBING GOD were as DEFINED IN Lev 27.

HOW do we know this? See the items highlighted in my quote of Malachi 3 below.

(God is NOT A MAN @Image. He did NOT CURSE those who never broke HIS COMMANDMENT. He never cursed WAGE earners etc, i.e. people who didn't have the food items referred to below! He was not unaware of their existence! He just CHOSE NOT TO ask them to tithe, deal with it bro!

Mal 3:8 “Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me.“But you ask, ‘How are we robbing you?’“In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse —your whole nation—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food [/b]in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the [b]floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not drop their fruit before it is ripe, ” says the Lord Almighty.

According to your lie, "this whole nation who are ROBBING GOD" NOW means that the follwoing Israelites were commanded!

Obviously you (@Image) would have to include/replace in your (@Image) version:

Malachi 3:10 "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food (wages, shekels, gold, diamonds etc)in my house";

BECAUSE ONLY THEN would the groups below be part of this "whole nation" which you are reading out of context.

- Hired Workers did NOT tithe their wages
- Fishermen did not tithe
- Miners and the minerals were not tithed
- Carpenters/Construction Workers
- Traders who made/sold jewellery
- Priests
- Israelites without land e.g. the poor would receive tithe NOT PAY TITHE

I know you would prefer to HAVE PEOPLE BELIEVE that ALL Israelites tithed BECAUSE if they DIDN'T it WOULD SHOW UP THE LIE where Pastors teach people that ALL CHRISTIANS MUST TITHE EVERY INCOME/INCREASE or else they (Christians)are ROBBERS!!

NOT every tenth (10%) was HOLY & BELONGED to God!!

If they Know that even the Israelites who were COMMANDED at Mount Sinai DIDNT HAVE TO TITHE EVERY INCOME, it puts paid to the lie that CHRISTIANS ARE ROBBERS IF THEY DONT TITHE EVERY INCREASE!

You know the groups above were not a part of this "whole nation" you are attempting to read OUT OF CONTEXT!

See more people below who DIDN'T HAVE TO TITHE

1. Those who's animals increased by less than 10! So if your animals increased by 6, you don't kill some so you can tithe. They didn't tithe at that point and WERE NOT ROBBERS
2. Those who were Gentiles (yes even gentile CHRISTIANS).

IT takes NOTHING from You to admit their practice in biblical times as confirmed by historical facts in the bible.

@Image

Image123:
There is no place in the Bible that commands that tithes must be ONLY of agric produce, you are getting it twisted.

My bro, the SCRIPTURES YOU GAVE to show tithes as COMMANDED by God TO THE ISRAELITES on Mount Sinai WERE NOT JUST AGRIC PRODUCE are:

A. Num 18:21

“I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the tent of meeting

My answer:

@Image, to show you it was AGRIC PRODUCE, all YOU have to do is read a few verses down & see the following:

- Num 18

24 Instead, I give to the Levites as their inheritance the tithes that the Israelites present as an offering to the Lord.
25 The Lord said to Moses,
26 “Speak to the Levites and say to them: ‘When you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the Lord’s offering. 27 Your offering will be reckoned to you as grain from the threshing floor or juice from the winepress. 28 In this way you also will present an offering to the Lord from all the tithes you receive from the Israelites. From these tithes you must give the Lord’s portion to Aaron the priest. 29 You must present as the Lord’s portion the best and holiest part of everything given to you.’
30 “Say to the Levites: ‘When you present the best part, it will be reckoned to you as the product of the threshing floor or the winepress. 31 You and your households may EAT the rest of it anywhere, for it is your wages for your work at the tent of meeting.

B. 2 Chron 31: 5

And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things [/b]brought they in abundantly

My answer:

I already showed you where they were eaten in page 26 from 2 Chron 31:6-10(pls refer to it)

- They were set as [b]HEAPS and ATE from it, Azariah the chief priest even confirmed to HEZEKIAH that the HEAPS he saw were what was left after EATING

C. Luke 18:12

'I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get'

My answer:

So here we have the ONLY portion @Image can cling on to as EVIDENCE that GOD COMMANDED A TITHE OF items apart from AGRIC PRODUCE; i.e the PHARISEES EXAMPLE!

(I believe if he was as fastidious as described, his saying he 'tithed' would mean the agric produce AS COMMANDED in Lev 27:30,32,34; afterall we interprete scripture with scripture. The hearers as Israelites would know Num 18, 2 Chron 3, Mal 3 etc and their everyday practice had ALWAYS SHOWN Moses' tithe as agric produce to be eaten)

If YOU (@Image) BELIEVE he gave MORE items than agric produce as God commanded,

Let me ask you;

IS THE PHARISEE NOW GOD TO GIVE THAT AS A COMMANDMENT??
IS THE PHARISEE NOW GOD TO GIVE THAT AS A COMMANDMENT??

@Image,

Here's your answer on 'TITHE OF ALL THINGS' which you assumed were not the agric produce commanded by God in Lev 27:30,32,34

2 Chron 31
4 Moreover he commanded the people that dwelt in Jerusalem to give the portion of the priests and the Levites, that they might be encouraged in the law of the Lord.
5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things [/i]brought they in abundantly.
6 And concerning the children of Israel and Judah, that dwelt in the cities of Judah, they also brought in [i]the tithe of oxen and sheep, and the tithe of holy things which were consecrated unto the Lord their God, and laid them by heaps.
7 In the third month they began to lay the foundation of the heaps, and finished them in the seventh month.
8 And when Hezekiah and the princes came and saw the heaps, they blessed the Lord, and his people Israel.
9 Then Hezekiah questioned with the priests and the Levites concerning the heaps.
10 And Azariah the chief priest [/b]of the house of Zadok answered him, and said, Since the people began to bring the offerings into the house of the Lord, we have had enough to [b]eat, and have left plenty: for the Lord hath blessed his people; and that which is left is this great store.

It shows the following:

1. The Levites and Priests made the items collected in 2 Chron 31:5&6 into HEAPS
2. Hezekiah and the princes asked them about the HEAPS collected in 2 Chron 31:5&6
3. Azariah the chief priest said CONCERINING THE HEAPS from 2 Chron 31:5&6 that they had lots to EAT[/b]and plenty left over.
4. The [b]HEAPS are the plenty left over after eating

**You only 'EAT' things like the ones defined in Lev 27:30,32 (crops/animals)

P.s.

- Concering 'PERISHABLE' crop. Here's the web definition (hope it helps)

"per·ish·a·ble/ˈperiSHəbəl/
Adjective(esp. of food) Likely to decay [/b]or go bad [b]quickly.
Noun: Things, esp. foodstuffs, likely to decay or go bad quickly."