₦airaland Forum

@FlourishG,

Tithe means according to your answer to Zikky, "Tithe is a tenth part of ALL your increase. It is holy unto the Lord and must not be eaten." Wrong/Incomplete answer.

The only type of tithe which was compulsory was that directed at the Israelites. See below for the different types, your type of tithing is Pastors' creation which has different characteristics compared to the one God commanded as obligatory.[/quote]]


The word Tithes even though it's a tenth or 10% has had different meanings across the ages.


"Tithing" Preceeded The Law & "Tithing" was during the Law & "Tithing" outlives the Law" would if expanded read thus:

- "Tithing" (one off; voluntary; not commanded; not a precursor to blessings e.g Abraham) preceeded the Law;
- "Tithing" (Commanded on Mt. Sinai; Lev 27:30,32,34; Food Crops & Animals grown from Land freely given by God as they never had to buy the land or pay rent but owned it; Strictly from things grown/raised by person tithing, not from gifts; Tithes to be given to Levites, Widow, OrphanS, Tither to eat Tithes) was during the Law, AND
- "Tithing" (Pastor's creation; Cash from wages, egunje, gifts etc; Compulsory; contains a mix of Malachi Curses; a precursor to being blessed; doesn't differentiate between Gleaners of the edge of the field, the Poor, Widows. The Tither must not eat his tithe & Non Land Owners who still pay rent MUST tithe making it more burdensome than God's Tithe in Lev; must be given directly to Pastor/Church) outlives the Law.


* DEFINITIONS are very IMPORTANT.

When God gave the commandment on Mount Sinai defining His Tithe (i.e. what was HOLY & TITHABLE), anyone executing it would refer to the commandment to ensure they are maintaining the integrity of the Definition.

Lev 27:30,32 Lev 27:30‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD. 32 Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod —will be holy to the LORD

34 These are the commands the LORD gave Moses at Mount Sinai for the Israelites.


edited[/quote]

flourishG: This is where you are missing the blessing Jem1. You said, "Today's Tithing Instruction from Pastors is putting an even greater burden on God's children than God did on the Israelites". What is the meaning of this statement? So now you are saying God put burden on Israel to tithe and we MoGs are now putting greater burden on God's children? This kind of statement is too heretic from a child of God. Tithe is a way of appreciation to God for his increase. It does not have to be from crops, animals, land etc. You need to stop thinking carnally.

So I take it that your answer is this:

You agree that

- The Israelites were not asked to pay 10% of their increase as tithe until God made sure to provide them with Land. Which means Israelites did not have to Pay Rent ever again for Home or Business Premises. In their account books, their asset column would hold a positive balance for Land before God in His kindness asked them to tithe.

- You believe it is fair that Today's Christians who don't own land and are still struggling and renting; who are still in the process of using their resources, working hard to save money to buy Land in order to be on an even level with their Israelite brethren; You believe it is fair that they are being asked to start paying 10% of their income even when in their account books, their asset column does not hold this vital asset of Land.

That is an uneven scale, it is not Justice.

flourishG: Why are you trying to twist God's word. The bible defined Israel. The bible makes it clear that we are all Israel of God. One thing is your guys are always conflicting yourself and proves ignorant of God's word. The bible says he is not a jew who is a jew outwardly but he is a jew who is a jew inwardly. Are you saying you are not a jew when you accepted christ. Christ is a jew and in christ, there is no jew or gentiles. so stop differentiating Israel by geographical location. This is the things of the spirit.

@FlourishG, Please address the question and don't presume to know my character.

I would be grateful if you answer my question.

Fact. Israelites were given Land by God, they no longer had to pay rent for their homes neither did they need to buy land to run their business of farming.

Fact. Today, Christians still need their homes and some people need Land for their business; wouldn't it be more ethical for Pastors to allow Christians use their[b] increase[/b] towards acquiring the basics of a. Home and b. Business Premises before asking them to tithe?

Fact. Today's Tithing Instruction from Pastors is putting an even greater burden on God's children than God did on the Israelites.

flourishG: crops and animals are what? They are increase of the land. Since we don't all involve in crops and animal business but whatever makes our INCREASE today will be tithed from such. This is where many christians get confused. The crops and animals are increase and as long as you as a christian also increase, you must tithe unto the Lord. Your question is answered.

Permission to ask.

You agree the Israelites tithed on increase from land and our INCREASE today is different which I suppose is why Pastors ask for increase from cash/income. Which means Pastors want christians to tithe God's way; everything else should be patterned God's way.

If we must Tithe God's way:

1. Isn't it unfair of Pastors to ask Christian Tithers who do not own LAND to tithe their INCREASE when the basics of LAND (for a. Home & b. Business Premises) which God first provided for the Israelites (before He commanded that they tithe of its increase) hasn't been met for the Christian who doesn't own Land ? After all the basics of LAND (for a. Home & b. Business Premises) is not different from when God commanded the Israelites to Tithe.

So true @ Debosky. I tried to make the distinction in my quote below. Tithing today is really a mix of different types, bits of Abraham's Tithe and Moses' Tithe. A clear distinction would help when one is studying on the issue of Tithes. I tried to address the point to our brother Image especially when he said that:

'Tithing' preceded the Law, 'Tithing' was during the Law and 'Tithing' outlived the Law.

Jem1: @Image,

Have you ever seen a contract? Or Legislation? There is usually a page reserved for definition of terms, the reason being it reduces situations where there is confusion on what the term means during or even after the execution of e.g the contract. Lawyers normally carefully pore over the definitions to ensure confusion doesn't arise.

When the defined word e.g. 'Tithe' appears in any subsequent pages of the contract or legislation in this case, the Bible, the person reading the document would understand the meaning of the word (as within what was defined in the 'definition of terms' page). So when you begin to see the word 'Tithe' in the Bible used by those Israelites (& their descendants) who were addressed via Moses on Mount Sinai, you would understand what it means just like in a Contract even if it is not explained verbatim the way it was in the definition of terms page e.g. Num 18:21 "all the tenth", 2 Chron 31:4-5 "a tithe of everything", Mal 3: 8-12 "all the tithes", Matt 23:23 "a tithe of mint", Luke 18:12 "a tithe of all I possess" etc would mean what was already defined in Lev 27:30,32.

When God gave the commandment on Mount Sinai defining His Tithe (i.e. what was HOLY & TITHABLE), anyone executing it would refer to the commandment to ensure they are maintaining the integrity of the Definition.

Lev 27:30,32 Lev 27:30‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD. 32 Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod —will be holy to the LORD

34 These are the commands the LORD gave Moses at Mount Sinai for the Israelites.

If for example a student in ancient israel on his way to school for 3months boarding was confused on whether to Tithe food stuff given to him from his parent's barn; his parents would not refer to Abraham's Tithe. They wouLd go to Lev 27. He would not tithe the food cos he didn't harvest them. His parents would have already tithed earlier. He wouldn't tithe Shekels given to him as gifts!

If any Israelite chooses to 'tithe' any other items outside of the definition of food crops/animals like some argue that "all I possess" in Luke 18:12 could mean other things, it would be of the 'tither's' own volition and not per commandment of the Lord, the Bible is silent on any other specific items as to what is HOLY (and belonging to the Lord which[b] must[/b] be Tithed).

The word Tithes even though it's a tenth or 10% has had different meanings across the ages.

So your comment that

"Tithing" Preceeded The Law & "Tithing" was during the Law & "Tithing" outlives the Law" would if expanded read thus:

- "Tithing" (one off; voluntary; not commanded; not a precursor to blessings e.g Abraham) preceeded the Law;
- "Tithing" (Commanded on Mt. Sinai; Lev 27:30,32,34; Food Crops & Animals grown from Land freely given by God as they never had to buy the land or pay rent but owned it; Strictly from things grown/raised by person tithing, not from gifts; Tithes to be given to Levites, Widow, OrphanS, Tither to eat Tithes) was during the Law, AND
- "Tithing" (Pastor's creation; Cash from wages, egunje, gifts etc; Compulsory; contains a mix of Malachi Curses; a precursor to being blessed; doesn't differentiate between Gleaners of the edge of the field, the Poor, Widows. The Tither must not eat his tithe & Non Land Owners who still pay rent MUST tithe making it more burdensome than God's Tithe in Lev; must be given directly to Pastor/Church) outlives the Law.


* DEFINITIONS are very IMPORTANT.

edited

Pastor Kun: Absolutely brilliant summary.

Thanks.

@Image,

Have you ever seen a contract? Or Legislation? There is usually a page reserved for definition of terms, the reason being it reduces situations where there is confusion on what the term means during or even after the execution of e.g the contract. Lawyers normally carefully pore over the definitions to ensure confusion doesn't arise.

When the defined word e.g. 'Tithe' appears in any subsequent pages of the contract or legislation in this case, the Bible, the person reading the document would understand the meaning of the word (as within what was defined in the 'definition of terms' page). So when you begin to see the word 'Tithe' in the Bible used by those Israelites (& their descendants) who were addressed via Moses on Mount Sinai, you would understand what it means just like in a Contract even if it is not explained verbatim the way it was in the definition of terms page e.g. Num 18:21 "all the tenth", 2 Chron 31:4-5 "a tithe of everything", Mal 3: 8-12 "all the tithes", Matt 23:23 "a tithe of mint", Luke 18:12 "a tithe of all I possess" etc would mean what was already defined in Lev 27:30,32.

When God gave the commandment on Mount Sinai defining His Tithe (i.e. what was HOLY & TITHABLE), anyone executing it would refer to the commandment to ensure they are maintaining the integrity of the Definition.

Lev 27:30,32 Lev 27:30‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD. 32 Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod —will be holy to the LORD

34 These are the commands the LORD gave Moses at Mount Sinai for the Israelites.

If for example a student in ancient israel on his way to school for 3months boarding was confused on whether to Tithe food stuff given to him from his parent's barn; his parents would not refer to Abraham's Tithe. They wouLd go to Lev 27. He would not tithe the food cos he didn't harvest them. His parents would have already tithed earlier. He wouldn't tithe Shekels given to him as gifts!

If any Israelite chooses to 'tithe' any other items outside of the definition of food crops/animals like some argue that "all I possess" in Luke 18:12 could mean other things, it would be of the 'tither's' own volition and not per commandment of the Lord, the Bible is silent on any other specific items as to what is HOLY (and belonging to the Lord which[b] must[/b] be Tithed).

The word Tithes even though it's a tenth or 10% has had different meanings across the ages.

So your comment that

"Tithing" Preceeded The Law & "Tithing" was during the Law & "Tithing" outlives the Law" would if expanded read thus:

- "Tithing" (one off; voluntary; not commanded; not a precursor to blessings e.g Abraham) preceeded the Law;
- "Tithing" (Commanded on Mt. Sinai; Lev 27:30,32,34; Food Crops & Animals grown from Land freely given by God as they never had to buy the land or pay rent but owned it; Strictly from things grown/raised by person tithing, not from gifts; Tithes to be given to Levites, Widow, OrphanS, Tither to eat Tithes) was during the Law, AND
- "Tithing" (Pastor's creation; Cash from wages, egunje, gifts etc; Compulsory; contains a mix of Malachi Curses; a precursor to being blessed; doesn't differentiate between Gleaners of the edge of the field, the Poor, Widows. The Tither must not eat his tithe & Non Land Owners who still pay rent MUST tithe making it more burdensome than God's Tithe in Lev; must be given directly to Pastor/Church) outlives the Law.


* DEFINITIONS are very IMPORTANT.

edited

[s]@Image, have you ever seen a contract? Or Legislation? There is usUally a page reserved for definition of terms, the reason being it reduces situations where there is confusion on what the term means during or even after the execution of e.g the contract.Lawyers normally carefully pore over the definitions to ensure confusion doesn't arisem

When God gave the commandment on Mount Sinai defining His Tithe, anyone executing it would refer to the commandment to ensure they are maintaining the integrity of the Definition. Lev 27:30,32. So your comment that Tithing Preceeded The Law & Tithing [/s]

(Sorry, double post)

Image123: ^Jem1
Your above response is one of the reasons i said i would not rebut your 'answers'. This your response is worse than your first response. We'd have still been on the rebutting part, and yet to get to where i answer Goshen. Because i also wouldn't take your answers, like Goshen's is not taking mine immediately. Imagine the chaos this thread can have been.
The reason for my questions was obtained, i wasn't looking for your 'correct' answers, but something else.

hmmmm @ the bolded, still it's your prerogative. But still, what you want from our discussion here may not be what I want, no hard feelings. Still it's my prerogative abi? One thing no-one can accuse me of is being disingenous, my answer is what it is; as long as it contains a direct answer to your question (which it did), my choosing to explain myself further may bother you but you could have asked for clarification; you chose not to, no wahala. [b]I personally don't mind rebuttals as long as it provides clarity on the issue [/b]for others who may be reading.

I've avoided commenting on your answers to Goshen's questions to you because I felt courtesy demands he should have the first say and you should have the opportunity to explain yourself further but your response to Heb 7:8, where you said Paul was talking about Jesus receiving tithes instead of Melchisedec was so off point. The others were quite rightly surprised and I at first thought you made a mistake; you trying to defend it is quite shocking really...

Image123: Meanwhile, just to tell my friends to remove the log in their eyes before accusing others. i'm not referring to correctness or wrong of the answer. But the complete irrelevance and dodge of the answers given makes one wonder, "are these my accusers". Kunle and Goshen were major culprits in this.


Jem1:

9). Were ALL God's workers sustained through tithes in the Old Testament?

They would have received tithes but NOT ALL ISRAELITES brought them Tithes. Those who did not have the HOLY items in Lev 27:30,32 were not COMMANDED by God to do( so were not cursed and they were also successful).

@Image, see why you should have taken the opportunity to respond when you were asked to after we had all given our responses? You stuck to a clause in a little known part of your answer which you quoted about not agreeing to respond to us. No wahala, it was your prerogative lol. Now you're looking for who will join you in the playground after being yabbed.

Now to the above quote, are you saying the answer was not accurate enough in response to your question? Would you have preferred it this way:

Jem1:

9). Were ALL God's workers sustained through tithes in the Old Testament?

Answer: They would have received tithes fullstop?

- In any case two things I'd like to point out:

1. 'They' should be 'Levites'.

and

2. The explanation starting from "..but NOT ALL ISRAELITES brought them Tithes..."
was making sure a reader seeing my point that Levites received tithes in the Old testament did not mean I agree todays God's workers should. Pastors have made a mountain out of us Christians sustaining them (pastors) through Old Testament tithing; making it mandatory to bring them tithes like Israelites did forgetting that NOT ALL ISRAELITES TITHED. We christians have more in common with ISRAELITE WAGE EARNERS WHO DID NOT TITHE because God of His own volition exempted them.

So, can we say in conclusion that the formula for tithing is thus:

1. God’s command in Mount Sinai and definition of Tithes is in Lev 27:30, 32, 34

30And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.
32And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
34These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.


2. God’s people paid the tithes in accordance to His direction by giving the HOLY items to LEVITES/WIDOWS/ORPHANS/POOR/TITHER(ate his tithe)


3. If any Israelites had chosen to tithe any other item outside of the command in Lev 27:30,32,34 that it must be farm produce; it would be of the tither’s own volition


4. If the tither tithes other items it would be without an EXPRESS COMMAND of the Lord that he tithes said items (Since the scriptures never specified any other items)


5. Those who were cursed in Malachi 3:8-12 must have violated God’s EXPRESS COMMAND to tithe the HOLY ITEMS [/b]in Lev 27:30,32,34 (food crops/farm produce in the land of Israel)



[b]6. (To show the sanctity of God’s command in Lev 27, Tithes in MALACHI were referred to as ‘MEAT’, ‘FRUITS’. Malachi talked of ‘VINES’, ‘FIELDS’.)


7. And vice-versa, since one CANNOT VIOLATE WHAT WAS NOT COMMANDED, those who did not have the HOLY ITEMS because of their trade (whom God already knew existed at the time of Moses) e.g. wage earners, fishermen and those who do not live on the land of Israel are NOT CURSED; neither do they lose a blessing; neither are they inferior because they DID NOT TITHE.

Malachi 3: 8Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.9Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.10Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be[b] meat[/b] in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.11And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.



8. Any pastor who teaches MALACHI CURSES apply to those who GOD KNEW do not have the ‘MEAT’, ‘FRUITS’, ‘VINES’, ‘FIELDS’ which HE COMMANDED IN SINAI; such a pastor would be at variance with the sacredness, sanctity and historical reality of the tithing commandment.



9. If such a pastor attempts to use examples of tithers who MAY HAVE TITHED of their own volition OTHER ITEMS APART FROM THAT WHICH GOD COMMANDED WAS HOLY and therefore MUST BE TITHED:


a. if such a pastor adds such items and re-baptises them as HOLY (giving the impression that they are the HOLY items in Lev 27:30,32,34 and Malachi 3)


b. if such a pastor now insists Christians tithe the re-baptised items as compulsory OR ELSE MALACHI’S CURSE applies,


c. such a pastor would be considered to be imposing a man-made law


d. such a pastor would be using subterfuge to give Christians the impression that they are obliged to obey a command for which clearly they are not.

e. Such a pastor would need to repent of his twisting of scriptures as a lot of Christians today are living in fear (some would not even pay hospital bills for their dying child because they believe they would be under a curse if they do not pay pastors tithe (Levititcal Tithes)) if that's all they have.

Enigma: Now now now! From experience and observation, I will go as far as saying that the bolded is a gross untruth ----- a major falsehood.

1. Most tithers, especially in Pentecostal/Charismatic circles, tithe for material reasons! They are hoping/believing that by "tithing" they will be "blessed", 'devourer' will be 'rebuked' etc.

2. You will find that deliberate and considered "non-tithers" in general are not motivated by material gains for their position; otherwise they too will go with the "I want to be blessed so I must tithe" herd.

3. I will also claim that a considerable number, arguably the majority, of "tithers" do NOT do it because they love God; we would have seen them show that they love God if they are in the habit of following what God and Jesus said about how to show you love God. The fellow who attends church on a Sunday and "pays" his tithe while there [b]but cannot spare 10 or 20 naira for the poor beggar [/b]outside the church is not necessarily demonstrating love for God!

You are talking about 10 or 20 naira for the poor beggar, I read some 'tither' on Nairaland advice that even if your child is ill and dying, on no account must you use Pastor's Tithe (Levitical Tithe) for hospital bills. That's how entrenched and vice-like the hold of fear and bondage is

Snowwy: @Jem1,

All the tithe in Israel were for the ministers.

In all, the tithe is not relegated to just farm produce, we have enough examples to read from OT and NT.
I Corinthians 9 [/b]is also another proof of this.

@ Snowwy,

I just want to address the above 2 comments which were part of a larger post.


1. [b]All the tithe in Israel were for the ministers

Not true. Some tithe went to widows/orphans/strangers AND the tither also ate his tithe by command of the Lord.

2. I Corinthians 9

- Are you saying the above quote meant the Levitical Priesthood had been changed to Paul?
- Was Paul now commanded to take the Levitical Tithe? If on the other hand even Jesus (not being a Levite) was not commanded neither did He take tithes, can we say Paul also lived as Jesus did?
- 1 Cor 9 seems a rather generic verse to build a doctrine of compulsory Tithing seeing as we have Jesus' example of not taking tithes neither are we told early Christian tithed. They gave generously and celebrated the liberty from the curse of the law (even Malachi curses) as they were not commanded to Tithe via Lev 27:30,32.

Ministers of the gospel should not look towards shackling their followers to the Commandment Lev 27:30,32 not directed at Christians or Num 18:21 not directed at Pastors(or even Jesus).
If ministers today receive from our offerings, is it not enough?

Or are you saying a Christian's offerings DO NOT FULFILL 1 Cor 9?

13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

Snowwy: Well you said it yourself...it did not say what was contained in 'all I possess' so if you have a differnt view that is your opinion.

Clearly he said he tithes on all his possession [/b]and as such if you decide to read a different meaning to it, why do you have issues with those who see the clear meaning of what 'possessions' mean?

From the other scriptures we see that tithe was on all and as simply as it is stated...whatever views you have does not matter...they are your views shikena.


I am speaking based on the bible, whatever a pastor decides to command, is not the issue here as I am not a pastor so you can go ask your pastor that question.

The frequency of the tithe should not be the issue because as long as you have something to tithe, you tithe, be it every week, every month etc.

So whatever you decide then do it...others tithe based on the understanding of the word both in the OT and NT.
Therefore let all be persuaded....finito.

Based on your assumption that his tithes included other things apart from farm produce; [b]Is he now God to give that as a commandment? At least we have the scripture where God defined what was HOLY & TITHABLE, can you show us where this man got this command to tithe the other items from?

Enigma: The above was addressed only very recently, yet . . . . . .


From https://www.nairaland.com/911729/can-churches-survive-without-offering#10579392

@Snowwy

Enigma's response concerning Abraham's Tithing of 'all he possessed' show us why cross referencing scripture is very important. Any one who did not read the account of the war spoils in the old testament would on seeing 'all he possessed' be unaware the passage was talking about war spoils and begin to assume other possessions.

Are you uncomfortable with cross-referencing?

1. God gave a command in Sinai (Lev 27:30,32,34)

2. He then tells them later on how to apply the Law in Num 18:21 by giving it to Levites;

3. In Chron 31:4-5 Israelites were told told to give Levites tithes (in reference to the tithes belonging to Levites by command of the Law in Num 18:21)

'But' You (Snowwy) insist he must repeat verbatim the quote in Sinai or else you would read meanings into it. Even Jesus in referring to the Pharisees' Tithe mentioned farm produce (mint etc).

If we are to assume that an Israelite went beyond the call of duty concerning the Sinai Command to tithe farm produce, is it now a binding Law on all other Israelites to tithe other items? Is the Israelite who went beyond the call of duty now God?

Snowwy: @Jem1,
We still await your response on Luke 18:12. The pharisee gave tithes of all he possessed (these were those who knew the law to the letter).

@Snowwy, I believe I addressed that in 676

[quote author=Jem1]@Snowwy,

Here's your quote of Luke 18:12 to counter the 'mint etc'.

Luke 18:12 (KJV)
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

Here's my answer:

[b]If you (Snowwy) can ASSUME he had other things apart from farm produce which he must have tithed since Luke 18:12 didn't specifically tell us WHAT HE TITHED;

- Are we wrong to say all he possessed he ‘referred to’ were farm produce/animals? Afterall He was referring to ‘Tithing’ [/b]which as a very fastidious keeper of the Law our conclusion will be more accurate that [b]he was obeying the Sinai command[/b] given to Moses that the items be according to Lev 27:30,32?

If He went beyond a call of duty and tithed ‘other possessions e.g. slaves, war spoils, wages etc’, WAS THERE A COMMAND given by the Lord [/b]that the items (‘slaves, war spoils, wages’) are now the HOLY & THEREFORE TITHABLE items?

[b]Assuming we follow those who say it must be other items apart from farm crops/animals, Would this man's example of tithing the new items be a reason for Pastors to lay down a command that every month, Christians must give them 10% of their wages or else they will not be blessed or would be cursed?

Snowwy: @Enigma,
As you can see, my response was to add to Jem1's scriptures. The last scripture was said by a Pharisee as well since Jem1 said the pharisees only tithed 'farm produce'.

@Snowwy,

One would read your quote above and assume I was being duplicitious. I wasn't the one who included 'mint, dill and cummin' lol.

Here's your quote of Luke 18:12 to counter the 'mint etc'.

Luke 18:12 (KJV)
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

Here's my answer:

If you (Snowwy) can ASSUME he had other things apart from farm produce which he must have tithed since Luke 18:12 didn't specifically tell us WHAT HE TITHED;

- Are we wrong to say all he possessed he ‘referred to’ were farm produce/animals? Afterall He was referring to ‘Tithing’ which as a very fastidious keeper of the Law our conclusion will be more accurate that he was obeying the Sinai command given to Moses that the items be according to Lev 27:30,32?

If He went beyond a call of duty and tithed ‘other possessions e.g. slaves, war spoils, wages etc’, WAS THERE A COMMAND given by the Lord that the items (‘slaves, war spoils, wages’) are now the HOLY & THEREFORE TITHABLE items?

Assuming we follow those who say it must be other items apart from farm crops/animals, Would this man's example of tithing the new items be a reason for Pastors to lay down a command that every month, Christians must give them 10% of their wages or else they will not be blessed or would be cursed?



You also said to Enigma and I quote:

"Your anology proves that all other occupations did not get blessed by God in the OT."




Is it your assumption that tithes were they only way to get blessed? Do you assume that those who by reason of their occupation did not have the Holy Tithable items in Lev 27:30,32 were short changed and had an inferior position?


Did God put wage earners in an 'inferior' position know they did not have the Holy and Tithable items?

What was His plan for these 'inferior' groups?

How come there were succesful wage earners who did not tithe as they did not have the HOLY AND TITHABLE items per Lev 27:30,32 given at Sinai by command of the Lord?

On the contrary they were blessed and successful without tithing same as Carpenters like Jesus and early Christians.

Snowwy: @Jem1,
Other scriptures I thought you would add:

Snowwy's Quote 2

2 Chronicles 31:4-5 (KJV)
4Moreover he commanded the people that dwelt in Jerusalem to give the portion of the priests and the Levites, that they might be encouraged in the law of the LORD.5And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.
end Quote.

@Snowwy,

Is your argument here that ‘ALL THINGS’ in 2 Chron 31:4-5 does not mean the Lev 27:30,32 ( the definition which was given in Sinai?)

I have the same query like I did regarding your mention of Num 18:21

HAD GOD EXPANDED HIS HOLY TITHE AT SOME POINT AND SCRIPTURE FORGOT/NEGLECTED TO INCUDE IT?

It would appear both scriptures are complimentary and not at variance at all. They brought farm produce in 2 Chron31:3-4. Or do you think they brought their first fruits of corn etc and went back to bring other things as tithes?

This I believe is the logical progression:

1. Tithing Command from God in Sinai via Moses that a tenth of farm crops/animals are HOLY and must be TITHED (Lev 27:30,32)
2. Holy and Tithable items should be given to Levites (Num 18:21)
3. Years later, Israelites were being told to keep the Sinai Law and they would have been told what was HOLY and Tithable (2 Chron 31:4-5)

[quote author=Snowwy]@Jem1,
Other scriptures I thought you would add:

Snowwy's Quote 1:
Numbers 18:21 (KJV)
And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation
end Quote.

@Snowwy,

I assume you are drawing my attention to 'all the tenth' as opposed to tithes being farm produce?


So you are saying God changed His mind from His earlier command in Lev 27 where He said in

Lev 27:30‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD. 32 Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod —will be holy to the LORD

34 These are the commands the LORD gave Moses at Mount Sinai for the Israelites.

Is it your argument that it was no longer just from crops and animals but this was an EXPANSION TO INCLUDE OTHER THINGS AS HOLY AND TITHE?

At what point would you say the HOLY items now included other things?

Would ‘all the tenth in Israel’ in Num 18:21 include ‘war spoils, wages, service, land etc?’

I believe the two scriptures Num 18:21 and Lev 27:30,32 are complimentary. It was counting on the hearers to have heard of the Sinai command earlier.The Israelites were already told what to separate as tithe Lev 27:30,32 and were being told in Num 18:21 to give those items to Levites.

Chyysom: Don't misinterpret d bible. Jesus did say something abt tithing please read Matt 23 v 23 try and understand what He means by that when He said these things u ought to do without neglecting the former meaning tithing. Jesus never condemned tithing.He said while they r faithful in their tithes they shouldn't neglect doing other good things because of it.The old testament hasn't being abolished if so why is it still part of d bible or r u wiser than God?it is only d idea behind d laws that have been abolished.and the law is mostly in the book of leviticus.Take note pastor what do dey call u.

@Chyysom, let me rephrase your statement and replace your quotes of tithes with 'Lev 27:30,32 Tithes';

" Don't misinterpret d bible. Jesus did say something abt '*Lev 27:30,32 tithing' please read Matt 23 v 23 try and understand what He means by that when He said these things u ought to do without neglecting the former meaning 'Lev 27:30,32 tithing'[/b]. Jesus never condemned [b]'Lev 27:30,32 tithing'. He said while they r faithful in their 'Lev 27:30,32 tithes' [/b]they shouldn't neglect doing other good things because of it."

(end quote).

Please note that [b]Jesus never paid 'Lev 27:30,32 Tithes' [/b]from His income as a carpenter neither did the Apostles who were fishermen. Early Christians who were wage/salary earners also never paid Lev 27:30,32 Tithe. Their increase/income/wages was simply not what God defined as His Tithe. See below:

[b]*Lev 27: 30 “ ‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord.
32 Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the Lord.

p.s. The Pharisees tithed according to Lev 27:30,32 because the tithed 'mint, dill and cumin' which are farm produce.

Goshen360: @ Jem1,

No worry. Just leave Image123 to answer my questions. All things (Abraham tithe or levitical tithe) will be taken care of in my questions. Just siddon dey look. We still dey Q4. Am waiting for Image123 to now answer the question Q4.

That's okay Goshen, I apologise for coming into the middle and throwing punches anyhow lol. I guess I was responding to every and any one who has being saying 'anti-tither' and I really shouldn't let it bother me, thanks.

Image123: @Jem1
i almost forgot to chip in that your vex against any passage of scripture(in this case Malachi 3) is uncalled for. i don't recall even making a reference to that passage, or perhaps your post wasn't addressed to me?

I’m sorry Image, ok? You haven’t mentioned Malachi. I suppose I made that association from the talk earlier in the thread about 1st Tithe (Levites) which is the one Malachi said people are cursed if they don’t bring. It’s difficult to know people’s positions here though; it appears it is not cast in stone. Each ‘tither’ has his own definition. ‘But’ I must point out that a subliminal association with Malachi is made by church members when a pastor/teacher begins to use imagery from Levitical Tithing as a way of maintaining pastors.

See drama! Please who was calling me anti-tithe

To be quite honest, the following are the ones who are anti-tithe, i.e., anti-Lev 27:30,32 (although they are pro-Malachi curse) and I will explain. Those who approach tithing from a MALACHI (curse, devourer) perspective should not pretend not to know MALACHI was talking about 'Lev 27:30,32'. Malachi wasn't talking of Abraham's Tithe

You are anti-tithe and not pro tithe (how can you be anti-Lev 27 Tithe and insist you are Pro-Malachi Tithe?

1. You bluntly refuse to heed the definition of tithing in Lev 27:30,32 calling those of us who draw you towards it, anti –tithe. No, we are Pro-Lev 27:30,32

2. You assume those Israelites who lived during the time of Moses and Jesus who did not have the HOLY items quoted by God as tithable are somehow inferior [/b]to those who had the tithable Holy items (even though some were successful and were not considered by God to be robbers or cursed).

3. Why would I say that? Cos [b]you pretend wage earners did not exist [/b]even though [b]Christians have more in common with them cos they earn wages[/b. You attempt to join yourself to a LAW that was not directed at them neither was it directed to YOU.

4. [b]You believe there is a deficiency, an anomaly, an inferiority in Israelite wage earners [/b]which you feel you must correct by adding the following to God’s word [b]“A tithe of everything from your INCOME belongs to the Lord; it is HOLY to the Lord. 32 Every tithe of your INCOME—every tenth INCOME that comes to you as salary is HOLY to the Lord.”

5. Moses/Malachi could have written the new additional verse above for Israelites like Jesus who were carpenters, wage earners etc but even Moses refused to; Malachi refused and Jesus refused to add to God’s word speaking instead of’ Mint and Cumin’ which are food crops.

6. You sirs, and some pastors attempt to sneak MALACHI in as a curse and use the ADDITIONAL QUOTE ABOVE, a quote made by MAN and attempt to say 21st Century Christians are therefore CURSED AND A DEVOURER WILL COME AFTER THEM if they DO NOT GIVE PASTORS the new and additional HOLY TITHABLE ITEMS NOW BAPTISED and re-named’ INCOME’ by pastors.

7. Even Jesus did not do that!

8. Is it an attempt to steady the ‘ark’ [/b]because you perceive it is about to fall? Is the ark a deficiency, an anomaly, an inferiority? Are you attempting to correct the anomaly/deficiency/inferiority (in WAGE EARNERS e.g. carpenters/21st Century Chrisitians) you perceive in those groups? (see item 4)

9. [b]Are you Uzzah? 2 Sam 6:6

10. Stand fast in the liberty you are called to, if the word of Moses concerning Tithes was good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for you.

11. If you want to teach giving 10% of income, do not by sleight of hand, pretend you are keeping an OLD TESTAMENT LAW IN MALACHI to PROTECT YOU FROM CURSES or to CALL UP A BLESSING.

12. Do not teach your followers to live in FEAR trusting instead in the arm of flesh; trusting instead in their 10% to protect them from accidents and problems etc;

13. Israelite Carpenters like Jesus and fishermen like the apostles did NOT NEED THE 10% to protect them from curses, God gave them the liberty to NOT TITHE (Lev 27:30,32)

p.s. Abraham’s tithe did not come up with a curse neither was it a pre-requisite for his blessing (he was already blessed). ABRAHAM’s TITHE & MALACHI’s TITHE cannot marry lol, they are 2 parallel lines that cannot meet, YOU cannot lace Abraham's Tithe with Malachi curses and serve it as soup to 21st Century Christians to keep them in bondage abi you be winsh??

(not trying to derail the thread, no vex pls)

Pls @Image123, I may modify some typos later but I will let you know if I do. I have to log off now, thanks.

1). Did Jesus Christ ever argue against tithes?

Jesus never argued against Lev 27: 30 “ ‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord.
32 Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the Lord.
(See also Deut 14:22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year.)

2). Did Jesus Christ ever tell some group of people to tithe?

Jesus told people who satisfied the criteria in Lev 27:30,32 e.g The Pharisees (who had mint, cumin etc which are farm crops)in Matt23:23 were told ‘this you ought to have done’.

(Jesus never said '10% of wage earners income is HOLY and must be tithed'(Jesus never told them, this you ought to have done); that would be adding to God's word.)

Moses Tithing instructions were to Israelites and there were two groups:
1. People who had the holy items in Lev 27:30,32 & Deut 14:22 would tithe
2. People who did not have the holy items in Lev 27:30,32 & Deut 14:22 wouldn’t tithe. Wage earners existed, some were successful but God did not declare 10% of their earnings as HOLY unto Him, Moses also did not add to God's word by declaring 10% of the earnings as Holy and therefore tithable)

3). Do you believe that there are different types of tithes in the Old Testament?

Sure.
i. Abraham Tithed.
ii. Moses gave instructions on what God commanded MUST be tithed as they were Holy unto Him.
Abraham’s items would not meet the criteria in Lev 27:30,32 (pls refer to quote above); he (Abraham, tithed of his own volition, we are not told God commanded him to tithe the items or would be cursed if he did not).

We must note the differences in the 2 types of Tithes referenced in Hebrews
A: Abrahamic TITHE
B: Moses TITHE

If you believe you (21st century Christian) are commanded to tithe via Hebrews, you must note the characteristic differences in the two. You are not cursed as you cannot meet the conditions of the tithing required in MALACHI (as it is the Lev 27:30,32 tithe)


4). Do you believe that there was a tithe to be eaten by the giver at home and a DIFFERENT tithe to be given at the storehouse?

I believe the Israelites so commanded who had the HOLY items referenced in Lev 27:30,32 must tithe according to God’s instruction.
So yes ISRAELITES who were commanded had to give a tithe for BLOOD Levites, and another tithe to be eaten in their homes IN ISREAL per the Lord’s Instructions

5). Did Apostle Paul observe temple rites?

Yes, it would appear so. Whether he would have the HOLY items in Lev 27:30,32 to give as tithe is another matter. Some Israelites did not have the items and were not robbing God. God personally refused to say 10% of wage earners income was Holy unto Him even though He had the opportunity in Leviticus and wage earners existed when He gave the instruction.


6). Did Apostle Thomas observe temple rites?

It would appear so.


7). Is tithe a form/type of giving?

Yes, tithing which is defined here was a form of giving: Lev 27: 30 “ ‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord.
32 Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the Lord.
(See also Deut 14:22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year.)

Some would use the word ‘PAY’ as they teach 21st Century Christians that they must pay or else they are cursed and the devourer would come after them. As you can see, no Christian was directed by God to meet the command in the quote above; MALACHI curse does not apply.

Abraham also gave a tithe.


. Is anyone going to hell for giving tithes whether as money or crops today?
If anyone can meet the criteria in definition of tithe (Lev 27:30,32) and pays as the LORD commands he should be fine.

Conversely, any 21st Century Christian who of his own volition gives 10% of his wages to his pastor/church (without being coerced by lying instructions from the pastor by being told that he robs God if he does not) should be fine.
Any pastor who does that is ‘obtaining under false pretences’.

9). Were ALL God's workers sustained through tithes in the Old Testament?

They would have received tithes but NOT ALL ISRAELITES brought them Tithes. Those who did not have the HOLY items in Lev 27:30,32 were not COMMANDED by God to do( so were not cursed and they were also successful).

10). Is "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come." (1 Corinthians 16:2) a type of proportional giving or not?

NO. As the Lord prospered you does not refer to a percentage, it was more vague and generic than a specified percentage filled with curses of the devourer coming after you.

You can ask Image123, don't want to hold everyone up. I'll have to warn you though, I believe I've tried to state where my I draw exceptions in the teaching of tithing. It would have been great if you had answered my questions first although I'll defer to Goshen360 and let you ask. thanks.

hmmm, I'm wondering if I should agree to answer. Image parked me by the roadside since, ordinary pure water sef I no see.

@Image,

Are you also parking me by the roadside? It's okay though, I do have pretty strong views and respect your rights to hold a contrary one although I might not agree with some of them. I'm glad I found Nairaland, it's intresting reading the different views. Have a lovely Sunday.

brainchild78: The issue of tithes is a very contraversial issue and it appears to be a medium for unscrupulous so called pastor to extort money from their gullible members.

It is controversial as the teaching that one must give 10% of one's income or else one is cursed is pervasive; very very widespread.

In some churches, one can get excommunicated for challenging the teaching. Some are not allowed to marry 'non-tithers' etc.

Thank God for Nairaland where one can discuss controversial issues without the threats and the one way teaching one gets in a typical church setting.

Pastors must teach their followers that the tithing command was not carried out by all Isrealites e.g. wage earners, carpenters, fishermen etc.

21st Century Christians should make a decision on giving(not paying cos they DO NOT OWE GOD TITHES); giving 10% of their income voluntarily not forced under false pretenses that they will be cursed if they don't from Pastors.

Pastors must teach that some in the groups of Israelites in Moses' time that were exempt from tithing were successful. They were not cursed and did not have the devourer chasing after them because they couldn't tithe per Lev 27:30,32.

God knew even then during Moses's time that they did not have the HOLY items he commanded must be tithed and did not ask them to tithe of their income/increase on purpose. God couldn't have forgotten to ask them to tithe unless Pastors are telling us God made a mistake they (pastors) are trying to correct.

They are actually saying God made a mistake by adding to God's word.

- Some people who follow the 'tithe or else you are cursed' begin to use divinations/superstitions to check if their 'tithe' is working. If they get promoted they attribute it to tithe, if their car has a problem or their child is il, they'll use divination and say it's because I didn't tithe correctly cos I split my tithe and gave some to the poor instead of giving all 10% to pastor/church. Fear must not rule rather, faith; that He is able to do abundantly above all we ask or think Eph 3:20, because we are already His children, we cannot bribe God with tithe.

Leviticus 27:30,32
30 “ ‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord.
32 Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the Lord.
(See also Deut 14:22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year.)


Above is God's definition of the tithe mentioned in Malachi. A tenth of the tithe was given by the Levites to the priests who ministered at the altar.


Why did God in the scriptures above bluntly NOT to ask Israelite Fishermen, Carpenters, Blacksmiths, Strangers, Traders etc. to keep 10% of their income/increase as HOLY unto Him? Or else they would be cursed?

Was His plan to make them robbers and cursed?

Since they couldn’t meet up the commandment to pay tithe (since Lev 27:30,32 is crop/herds) were they, even though they lived in Moses' time, were they, even though they were Israelites, permanent robbers/cursed?

Would Moses have been right to add to God's word in Leviticus [/b]and add the following (see below) even though God didn't command him to do so:

[b]"a tithe of all your fish as fishermen, income/increase as Strangers, Carpenters, Blacksmiths, jewellery Traders, 10% of your increase as you poor people glean the edge of the fields is HOLY unto the Lord and and you must tithe them?"

Would he (Moses) have been wrong to add the above to prevent these Israelites from being robbers/cursed [/b]for not being able to fulfil Lev 27:30,32 (see quote above) [b]due to them not having grain/fruit/herd/flock as God commanded even though they had income/increase in monies?

Are Pastors right to say 21st Century Christians are cursed if Carpenters, Blacksmiths, jewellery Traders etc do not give them 10% of their income?

Do our Pastors have the same 'dilemma' Moses had seeing as [b]21st Century Christians do not have the items God commanded was HOLY & therefore
tithabe unto Him in Lev 27:30,32 [/b]the same way Moses' Israelite Fishermen, Carpenters etc did not have the HOLY items?

God, of His own volition, exempted 'Moses' Israelite Fishermen, Carpenters etc' in Lev 27:30,32. Moses DID NOT add to God's Word by commanding them to tithe thereby making them exempt from curses or robbing God if they did NOT pay 10% of their increase/income as tithe since it was not deemed HOLY by God.

God did not need to rebuke the devourer for the NON TITHE PAYING ISRAELITES (even in Malachi) since they did not rob God in the first place.

Why do Pastors hide the fact that a significant portion of Israelites were NOT Commanded to pay Tithes and were therefore NOT GOD ROBBERS [/b]or cursed for not tithing.

Why Do Pastors hide the fact that [b]21st Century Christians have more in common with the Israelites not commanded to tithe [/b]than those commanded since they (like those not commanded) DO NOT HAVE THE ITEMS DEEMED HOLY in Lev 27:30,32?

Are Pastors adding the quote below to God's Word?
[b]
"a tithe of all your income/increase as Carpenters, Blacksmiths, jewellery Traders, Bankers, Doctors, Teachers, Conductors, Akara sellers is holy unto the Lord and you must tithe them or else you rob God and therefore cursed?"

Are 21st century Christians right to approach tithing from a Malachi/Curse/Robbing God perspective?

Is it right to play on people's fears, superstitions, hysteria and paranoia?

Are Pastors Robbing God by collecting 'tithes' knowing fully well a significant number of people pay them out of fear of curses [/b]because they taught them a lie and have refused to tell them the truth of God's word? Is there an element of Manipulation and Control by the pastors.

Are they being disingenuous? i.e. 'Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.'(google def.)

Are Pastors trusting in the arm of flesh to provide for them because they hide the truth that there is no curse neither do Christians Rob God when they do not pay pastors a tithe because Malachi does not apply to them?

[b]Are Pastors frightened that once Christians no longer fear they will not pay them tithes and Christians will begin to help their neighbours/families who are suffering directly because they will stop believing the lie that the Lord commanded that a tithe must go to Church/Pastor?

Shouldn't Pastors trust that their followers will still give to them out of the abundance of their hearts without threats of curses?

Will pastors who have built empires from tithes obtained by sleight of hand apologise and ask for forgiveness from God & the people and begin to teach the truth of God's Word? Will they allow people give 10% if they so choose (knowing they are not commanded to or cursed if they do not); therefore obtaining honestly and not obtaining under false pretences?

Will they teach the people to: Gal 5:1 - Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Do Pastors have faith or fear?

Image123: @Jem1
i'd not want to ignore, it might appear like i am. But i want to keep it as short and as simple as possible, from one point to the next. That's a major reason i don't usually contribute on 'tithe talk'. So please permit me to finish with the OP's questions, that would take some patience though. And do remind me, and get us Bible passages that state all these your acronyms. Thank you too.

Thanks Image123.

I used the acronyms to better explain the obligations Israelites were under inorder to keep the commandment on what was deemed 'tithe' (and therefore holy)found in
Leviticus 27:30,32
30 “ ‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord.
32 Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the Lord.

And so

1. Israelites who got grain from the soil/fruit and animals herd/flock (i.e. every tenth)must tithe said items as they were holy unto God.
Thet are therefore;
'Those Israelites Commanded to Tithe' (TICT)

2. Israelites who do not [/b]get grain from the soil/fruit and animals (herd/flock) are not required to tithe as they do not have the said items that are holy unto God. They would therefore be;
'Israelites Not so Commanded' (INC).
Example, carpenters, fishermen, blacksmiths, traders in jewellery, clothes etc.

It follows that tithe in Matt 23:23 "....these ought ye to have done" would mean tithe per Lev 27: 30,32 which [b]contains an obligation by command of the Lord on what was holy and tithable which Carpenters, Fishermen etc and strangers would no be able to meet.

Jesus therefore did not tell INCs e.g. carpenters etc, 'these ought ye to have done'. He was speaking to TICT (as only they could meet the obligation.

p.s. If a Hospital Director gathers a group of surgeons and nurses who are to carry out a delicate operation on a person 'Good luck everyone, I want you to go in there and operate on the patient'. The surgeons would know what their obligations are and so would the nurses. The nurse would not grab the scalpel and insist, well the director was speaking to me as well, she would know what her role is and stick to it.

Maybe not a very good example but I hope I explained myself well.

I am actually more concerned with tithing taught using the Malachi curse as a foundation. A lot of people are only exposed to that teaching which has it's foundation in Lev 27:30,32 as that was the tithe being talked about in Malachi. People are being needlessly frightened and become physically agitated as they know that they know that they know they would be under a curse and are robbers because they did not set apart a tithe of their income.

If INCs; Israelite carpenters, fishermen, traders in jewellery, the poor, strangers were not considered to be under a Malachi curse/robbing God even in Jesus' time if they did not give a tithe of their income/increase, who is the person who attempts to lay a curse and cause hapless fear on 21st century christians. The teaching must be wholesome and based on historical and biblical truths. Thanks.

woodcook: @op this may sound trivial but it a warning to everyone out there.

Did your husband at anything during courting told you about his family kitchen "ritual"? If the answer is yes and that it involves everyone dishing food themselves then I think you invited the trouble yourself for trying to stop the little girl. I believe in total disclosure during courting no matter how bad or petty you think the info are just let it out. SO that your partner will have a clearer picture of what he/she is getting into. For instance, while growing up we don't dish food neither do we ask anyone to dish us food. After cooking you only dish food for my parents and to the rest of the household you just tell them to go "attack" the pot. I remembered my sis friend spending the weekend with us and that decided to prepare dinner to her greatest suprised after cooking, she just left the kitchen to shower, before she was out of the bathroom we have dished our food ( me and my younger brother ) and she went "red" in the face immediately. In fact it was my sis that came to our rescue and explained stuffs to her. Since then whenever she is around she allows us dish for ourselves. Imagine if am to get married and my younger comes visiting, being that it is my house and their blood siblings, by default they would o after the food themselves. Though at this point I have to add that as one grows you are supposed to know that people are different and that at home you are allowed to do things in a certain way does not mean your brother's wife was brought up that way.

to be cont....

First up, I'd like to say violence is wrong and the husband should not have laid hands on the OP.

I like woodcook's comment cos cultural reality matters. Most people here seem to come from backgrounds where the pot is sacred. It does not mean it follows in all Nigerian ethnic groups. A wise person will choose carefully when marrying and where you feel the culture clash will be too much, create with care and diplomacy, a system that will work for you. Belittling someone else's culture by holding onto the superiority of yours thereby claiming the other is inferior can work in your mind but the reality is much harder.

Scenario A: I've been to homes where the mother of the house does not cook for the entire week except Sundays. They buy food (soup/stews) from a cook. They make plain rice etc at home but mummy does not have to serve everyone. The father's food is dished separately and the children eat together from a communal plate. The scenario (sometimes minus the outside cook) is replicated accross the ethnic group. The mother may cook or allow some other family female to cook. This is more informal although some structure on when/what to cook exists. It's easier in this scenario for household members to take eg bread/buscuit/drinks to eat without asking. Here, women cannot use food as a bargaining chip on the rest of the household. The other issue is that there may be a bit more wastage as they don't have to wait religiously for mum to set out the food to be cooked or eaten. Their ways are not inferior just different.

Scenario B: I've also been to homes where only the mother (not the daughters/sisters etc) is allowed to cook. She is also the only one that can bring out the amounts of rice, bread, egg etc that should be cooked. She also is the only one that can serve the food. The family members also may be served individually and not together in one plate. In these homes, the women are powerful and can silently use food as a bargaining chip to put people in line. I was once in such a home where mumsy went on a short journey and was meant to be back to cook lunch. She got caught up, had no network to phone and give orders/permission on what the daughter should cook and got back by 6pm apologising profusely for keeping everyone hungry. But they had to wait for her. I could see bread, biscuits, drinks in the fridge but if the daughters are not touching who am I? There was less wastage in the house. Not inferior, just different.

There is a mix of such cultures with slight variations in our society and ignoring the differences can cause friction. In the past, families would not allow their daughters marry from other communities because they worried about culture clashes but as we become more open, we must consciously deal with the differences.

A husband/wife who grew up not seeing the pot as sacred and could eat whenever they wanted, who grew up eating from the same plate with his siblings and grew up reaching into the plate of his sibling to take meat without asking would appear uncouth to the husband/wife brought up differently. He/she on the other hand, may view the spouse as being stingy for not allowing access to food.

The one who grew up viewing the pot as sacred would view the communal living of the spouse as disrespectful of the sanctitity of the kitchen. She would see the wastage as horrifying especially since her upbring would involve being incharge of every cup of rice etc. I've seen where a spouse reached into the other half's plate to take a piece of food and it was viewed as being greedy rather than a loving gesture from the other half. Infact the spouse who's food was taken stopped eating and flung/pushed the plate away angrily saying the other half should eat the rest. The gesture was meant to be loving but misconstrued; communication breakdown due to cultural differences.

Personally, I feel since in our cultures women do most of the cooking, the wife's culture would come to dominate as it would be the natural order of things. A husband who grew up in a 'scenario A' setting and marries the opposite should know his home will not have the spontaneity of his parents home and a husband who grew up in a Scenario B home and marries the other should be ready for the seeming 'chaos' of his wife and adjust accordingly (the in-laws would have to step in line and adjust unless the wife is very accomodating).

Image123: You can't say that Jesus never paid tithe. the Bible doesn't say so, where did you get that? if you say He fulfilled the law, then He must have given tithes. [/b]The scribes gave tithes, the Pharisees did. how do we know? Jesus mentioned it. If He didn't mention it, we may not know for sure. We may all say"it's only farmers that give tithes". The scribes paid tithes, [b]all Israel were supposed to tithe. The Bible doesn't write that Jesus brought or offered things at Jerusalem. But it's the normal thing to do, or you think He just went on sight seeing excursions.All Jewish males went to Jerusalem every passover(i think 3times in a year even) and were not to come empty. It's all in the OT. These are normal things that all Jews did, and doesn't need unnecessary repetition. You don't have to teach someone what he already and always does, do you? You may correct if he's not doing it fine, that's what Jesus did.
Taxing was debatable in Jesus' days. the Jews didn't naturally pay tribute/tax. It was a mark/symbol of oppression to them. That's why they tempted Jesus with tax questions.. And so Jesus had to teach about it, and clear misconceptions. It was an occasion that came up. Tithing on the other hand, was not debatable in those days.


Tithe is a tenth of your increase. If you increase is anise,go ahead and give. Christ's point here was not mint and anise.His point was that the scribes and pharisees tithed to the smallest/barest detail. They were detailed and committed to it, but omitted weightier matters.

@Image123

All of Israel was not required to tithe. (Since you use 'tithe' in the context of Israelites)

And no, tithe was not just a tenth of your increase i.e. if we are speaking of how Israelites percieved it, it was a technical term that if you mentioned to the Israelites, they knew it meant 'a tenth of the children of Israel's (not Levites) increase in farm produce/crop and animals on the physical land of Israel.We can't re-write history. God's command was specific and Israelites knew not to add to God's word, may we not do the same.

This is where the question I asked earlier in post 49 comes in.

The Tithing command was spoken to Israelites who were made up of the following audience:

TICT - Those Israelites Commanded to Tithe. Examples, Israelites by birth apart from Levites who owned land in Israel and on commodities of farm crops and farm animals (not fish, not cats, and if they had for example a trade in selling jewellery they did not tithe on income from those sales).

INC - Israelites Not so Commanded. Examples, Increase or Income on work from Israelites who were Carpenters, Blacksmiths, Fishermen, traders in cloth, shoes, bags etc were not tithed. The poor/orphans who did not own land were not commanded to tithe. Israelites whose farm animals did not yield up to ten were not commanded to tithe until it got to the tenth.

(Strangers also were not commanded to tithe).

As a technical term, tithe was specific [/b]and unless Jesus had a farm where he produced crop and farm animals, He couldn't tithe. Even if He had the crop/animals, He would have to separate any increase/income from carpentery and not pay a tenth on the income.

p.s. you said "Christ's point here was not mint and anise." - What we can gather from His comment here is that He stayed true to the technical definition of tithe mentioning farm produce. It confirms the Historical reality which we cannot escape from if we must be good scholars and teachers of the word.

Therefore where He said in Matt 23:23 not to neglect tithing, He was

1. Speaking to Pharisees (TICT - Those Israelites Commanded to Tithe) re-iterating an existing statute for TICTS

2. Other non-Tithing Israelites (The INCs - Israelites Not so Commanded eg carpenters) would know [b]Jesus definitely WAS NOT asking them not to neglect something they were not commanded to do in the first place.

*Of the two groups; TICTs & INCS (pardon my usage),
- why do you insist Christ was addressing you Image123 in Matt23:23?
- (Do you belong to the TICTS?)
- What is your basis for the preference/choice between TICTs & INC
- Do 21st Century Christians belong to TICTS?

He certainly [b]excluded Himself and other carpenters [/b]when He said: 'do not neglect these things/tithe' in Matt 23:23 since they would belong to the INC group

Sorry for the plenty bolds (I'm also not able to quote my original questions in post 49, haven't really got the hang of how the forum works).

Thanks.