₦airaland Forum

9inches:
All you've been saying here is nonsensical, you can try to present sensible arguments. See, it's easy to do what you're doing. Labelling arguments you don't like as incoherent or fallacies doesn't make them as such, especially if you don't "coherently" and credibly refute those arguments. You're being openly dishonest in this conversation.

Come back here and tell all of us how much you tested this and how true/false this is.

9inches:
The uncreated Supernatural from whom every other thing came into being.

9inches:
I totally agree with you. Rhetoric doesn't cut it, and reasonably so. That's why you don't have to take my word for it. Evidence are meant to be tested.

At this your level of faith? You're still struggling with "Preambles of Faith" while asking me to talk to you about "Articles of Faith". Talking to you about deeper matters of faith at this point will sound to you like tales by the moonlight. You'll be lost in confusion. In the Catholic Church, we start from the basics, deal with the fundamentals and work our way deeper. We don't just throw you into the middle of the bible and tell you about 'Works of the holy spirit when you are yet to grasp information about God or Jesus Christ. If you don't know God, how could anything that come out him make sense to you?

9inches:
God I believe.

9inches:
Merriam-webster: moral law is a general rule of right living especially such a rule or group of rules conceived as universal and unchanging and as having the sanction of God's will, of conscience, of man's moral nature, or of natural justice as revealed to human reason.

9inches:
No sir, uniqueness does not mean validity. I wonder where you got that from. Something can be unique without it being valid or credible or authentic or even good. Check definition of unique.
By the way, I said this [Quote author=joseph1013 post=74566998]
In terms of answers to question is fine.

I'm actually just interested in the verifiable proof you have to belief that Christianity is the one and only true religion. Got it.

Truth by its very nature is exclusive. If it is true, as Christianity claims, that Jesus was crucified, died and rose again -- that it is not true as islam claims, that Jesus never died in the first place, and that somebody else was killed in his place... both claims cannot be true.
and you mischaracterized my statements and accused me of fallacy

You are being fallacious.

Your argument is akin to this conversation:

John: I am my father's son

Joseph: How do you know?

John: My father told me.

It's called a circular argument.

Jesus died and was crucified. Who told you that? The Bible did. See?

See...you realize that Islam and Christianity agree on certain aspects. They are both Abrahamic religions. They both recognize the Old Testament. Of course, they both disagree. Even Christianity is not singular. These are about 3000 denominations in Christianity, so this exclusivity you intend to give yourself has no validity.Way more than 3000; it's about 33,000 and counting although a lot of them believe precisely the same thing. But even if, let's say, they account for 3000 different beliefs, those differences matter a whole lot, more so, if those are fundamental differences. Like I previously said, every belief system has some good in it; some have more, some have less. But the whole point here is that you should not equivocate different contradicting belief systems even if they share some similarities or have some good in it. It's a postmodern moral relativist and nonsensical thing to do.

That's the point. The claim is that that's what makes the religion unique.Time to check the meaning of the word "unique".

When I ask for proof of Christianity, offering me absurd statements of Christ does not qualify as proof. Other religions offer some absurd claims too.
When I ask of proof, I'm referring to something tangible. Something like claims of the Bible being inspired by God. Something like a believer being a better human than anyone on earth due to the Holy Spirit indwelling. Something like miraculous claims by Christians that have been verified to be true.
Offering me claims I can make doesn't cut it.

Remember this? Now read the highlighted again.
You can use the following three tests to ascertain what the truth really is:

1. Correspondence theory
2. Coherence theory
3. Explanatory power

Correspondence theory asks the question, "look, what you believe, or what you've placed your trust in, does it correspond to reality? Does it have factual evidence to back it up." For instance, if I were to say to you "last night Manchester United won the football game", that statement is true if and only if Manchester United actually won the football game. That is the Correspondence theory - what I believe must correspond to factual evidence.

Coherence theory asks the question, "look, what you believe or what you've placed your trust in, does it cohere - is there a high degree of internal consistency?" Let's say, you and I we're talking and you say "hey, I just found out you had a new baby boy, is that right?" And I say to you with much enthusiasm "yes, we do and we are so pleased." Then another friend comes in and says "congrats man, I just heard that you have a son" And I say no no no, who told you that?" Now, you're going to look at me and be like "hold on, which is it?" As you already know, both can't be true because there's a contradiction there - there isn't coherence.

Explanatory power simply asks the question "does what I believe or what I've placed my trust in help me make sense of my observations of the world and also my longings and the desires that I have?" The observations that I have of the world - that the world is not the way it ought to be; there are many things wrong with the world. And then, my longing for significance - to matter; my observation that deep down I know I'm capable of doing great things but at the same time I'm deeply flawed.

The question then becomes, "what faith, system of belief or worldview best explains these observations and these longings?

The original Christian faith passes these three tests with flying colors.

9inches:
Moral law.

9inches:
Pardon, what did you think my argument was there? What's your understanding of the word "If"?

Where did I claim Christianityis true from the quoted? You're attacking a straw man now. Not good

Right. So what do you mean by "he recognized Jesus and what he has to say"? Do you think that according to the Christian claim of who Jesus says he is and what he taught...that both religions agree? See, I was pointing out the biggest (fundamental) difference between both faiths to dispel any argument of different religions being valid and true. I even used the law of contradiction, that shows what my argument was - the differences, not the validity of the claims.

Boom! You just helped me with another difference! Now can any rational person say both are equally valid and that their exclusive claims are both true? Of course not! Again, apply law of non contradiction - it's either the Christian claim is false and the Buddhist is the truth or vice versa. Both claims can also both be false but they CANNOT both be true. Do you understand that now?

Christianity makes those exact claims too, nothing unique here.

Here's one of Jesus' outrageous (special) claims: (John 6:52-58)
"Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, 'How can this man give us his flesh to eat?' Jesus said to them, 'Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.'"

It's either he is a nutjob, as in, a wacko - a crazy lunatic or he's telling the truth. Do you think any religion accepts this claim? Mind you, the group of people Jesus was talking to in this passage all believed in God, yet they were shocked, even a lot of his disciples left him because of such statement.

I asked what type of proof you are asking for. Maybe you can tell it now.

9inches:
Crime is a different conversation about secular law.

No, the gateman hasn't done an evil deed.

9inches:
Got it.

Truth by its very nature is exclusive. If it is true, as Christianity claims, that Jesus was crucified, died and rose again -- that it is not true as islam claims, that Jesus never died in the first place, and that somebody else was killed in his place... both claims cannot be true.

It's like asking why Jesus is the only way. Nobody else in history made the claims Jesus did. Nobody else claimed to be able to deal with the problem of the human heart like he did. Nobody else claimed as Jesus did to be "God with us!" So, whether you believe his claims or not, it's evident Jesus was utterly unique.

Note that christianity does not make the argument that other religions are totally false. That would be totally a false assertion. There is some good and truth in just about every other religion. If you apply the law of non contradiction - "A" and "B" cannot both be true at the same time. Either one of them is true or both are false.

So, now you know Christianity and islam could be said to be superficially similar but fundamentally different because they both make contradicting truth claims.

HellVictorinho:
"Can" in English means possibly.
'Objective'and 'Subjective' have different meanings in English.

9inches:
I said "it is", which means yes. I don't set to confuse. But mind you, we're not talking natural sciences where theories are reduced to short formulas and concise sentences. However, I understand what you mean.

9inches:
1. In what form do you want the results? The result is the readily available (a.k.a already-made) answers to just about every one of the ever burgeoning questions man could have. If that's what you're asking, then I can point you to where and how to search for information/answers.

2. I thought I've answered that.

HellVictorinho:
It can be objective.
It can be subjective.
So it is not fixed.

HellVictorinho:
Your question can't be answered simply to effect logic.

HellVictorinho:
Morality is not fixed.

HellVictorinho:
Murder is a crime-fact.
"Good"/"Evil" are just words.

9inches:
it is.
Cathechism [2269] says: The fifth commandment forbids doing anything with the intention of indirectly bringing about a person's death. The moral law prohibits exposing someone to mortal danger without grave reason, as well as refusing assistance to a person in danger.

The acceptance by human society of murderous famines, without efforts to remedy them, is a scandalous injustice and a grave offense. Those whose usurious and avaricious dealings lead to the hunger and death of their brethren in the human family indirectly commit homicide, which is imputable to them.

Unintentional killing is not morally imputable. But one is not exonerated from grave offense if, without proportionate reasons, he has acted in a way that brings about someone's death, even without the intention to do so.

9inches:
1. It has been subjected to more than those tests over the centuries. And the results are there to be seen. Infact, it's even christians that ask most of the hard-hitting and difficult questions.
I won't conclude without saying, "why not be the scholar and test it out yourself?"

I don't know your level of understanding and appreciation of the idea of God. Generally, I think for people without faith at all it's better not to plunge them into the religion and the bible right off the bat. Proper route to lasting knowledge is to start from the fundamentals and master the basics so you don't get shaken up when the more complicated information starts arriving.

2. Yes, I can say that I have knowledge of the other world religions. Belief systems can be grouped and understood in a nutshell. For example, if the Abrahamic religion is false, Judaism, christianity and Islam will fall in one fell swoop and your search for the truth focuses on the other religions. But if the Abrahamic religion is true, then your search narrows down to only the Abrahamic religions.

9inches:
It realized truth is objective and that we live our daily lives knowing, albeit unconsciously, that somethings are absolutely evil, and that we can also recognize some things are absolutely good. So, due to some personal research, I got to understand these terms: postmodernism, moral relativism, naturalism, deism, etc. I paid attention to both popular and unpopular atheists, christians, scientists... But here's the most fascinating/revealing part of it all for me, watching religious people of different faiths who became atheists and also atheists who became religious. Let's just say, I've heard loads and loads of argument. Not just heard but paid attention to them.

9inches:
You can use the following three tests to ascertain what the truth really is:

1. Correspondence theory
2. Coherence theory
3. Explanatory power

Correspondence theory asks the question, "look, what you believe, or what you've placed your trust in, does it correspond to reality? Does it have factual evidence to back it up." For instance, if I were to say to you "last night Manchester United won the football game", that statement is true if and only if Manchester United actually won the football game. That is the Correspondence theory - what I believe must correspond to factual evidence.

Coherence theory asks the question, "look, what you believe or what you've placed your trust in, does it cohere - is there a high degree of internal consistency?" Let's say, you and I we're talking and you say "hey, I just found out you had a new baby boy, is that right?" And I say to you with much enthusiasm "yes, we do and we are so pleased." Then another friend comes in and says "congrats man, I just heard that you have a son" And I say no no no, who told you that?" Now, you're going to look at me and be like "hold on, which is it?" As you already know, both can't be true because there's a contradiction there - there isn't coherence.

Explanatory power simply asks the question "does what I believe or what I've placed my trust in help me make sense of my observations of the world and also my longings and the desires that I have?" The observations that I have of the world - that the world is not the way it ought to be; there are many things wrong with the world. And then, my longing for significance - to matter; my observation that deep down I know I'm capable of doing great things but at the same time I'm deeply flawed. The question then becomes, "what faith, system of belief or worldview best explains these observations and these longings?

The original Christian faith passes these three tests with flying colors.

raphieMontella:
ahh...this Joseph guy still de

Bros, too many things to do at once for a mortal before we death comes calling, but we still dey here kampe.

9inches:
Lol, I have no idea. You have to put in the work to seek for the truth, only the truth, the absolute truth that when you know it and appreciate it, you will change your siggy to "I will die for this TRUTH."

I probably was in your shoes - once a believer, acquired some college degrees, started questioning but wasn't getting answers that made sense to me; considered atheism, made some sense for a while...... long story short, became agnostic!

But here's what I can guarantee you: you won't find the COMPLETE truth elsewhere (bragging toh bahd! ). I can only point you the way and stay available for questions; the rest of the journey is on you.

9inches:
Interesting. So, how do you determine truth?

9inches:
Which means there's a chance you have flawed belief....but you're always open to consider other ideas/beliefs. Am I right?

TATIME:
Hmmmmmmmmm UNTENABLE excuses as usual from a determined atheist!
Well why not ask Muslims saying "Jihadists aren't TRUE Muslims" to PRESENT, POINT, NAME or SHOW you a group that's PRACTICING Islam in their assumed PEACEFUL way?
For your information, you're discussing with a former Muslim, i studied Islam to it's root and found out that it's all about exterminating INFIDELS as we would call unbelievers back then!
The religion sprout from the race of Ishmael (Abraham's first son by Sarah's slave girl) God's angel foretold what will become of Ishmael and his descendants that "they will become TERRORISTS" {Genesis 16:11,12}
Now how do you expect a descendant of Ishmael (the father of TERRORISM) to fair if such should claim to be sent by God to propagate pure worship.
Don't you think that will be disastrous.
So don't think that's a hard nurt to crack for somebody like me who has dedicated all his life to read,study and meditate on several religious books before concluding on Christianity!

TATIME:
@joseph1013
God's ORIGINAL purpose for humans (the only intelligent creature on earth) is to supervise other creatures and keep their environment in conducive conditions! Genesis 1:26-28
That's what will bring honor to any landlord whose tenants are taking good care of the house in which they're living! Hebrew 3:4
Mankind have spent thousands of years on earth and realized the need for worship! That's why there is NO place no matter how primitive those existing there on earth where the inhabitants won't have any sign of worship!
Pure worship is what mankind couldn't resolve for centuries till now. The only nation God revealed HIMSELF to on earth is ISRAEL,but they love the customs and practices of surrounding nations. They keep killing God's messengers (prophets) in their midst and finally they killed Jesus (God's model for everyone to attain to purity or holiness) Matthew 23:37
That's why Jesus called the Christians the CHOSEN nation that will replace natural ISRAEL(Matthew 19:28)Israelites are supposed to exhibit the qualities God requires from humans to live forever,this they're to learn from Jesus!Matthew 3:17,17:5
But Israelites rejected Jesus(Matthew 27:18-25)so that glorious privilege was given to Christians who accepted the teachings of Jesus! Wherever you may come from, you're to be as illuminators of those divine required standard as you keep exhibiting Christlike qualities.
That's why Satan immediately moved into action to establish his own deceptive religious sects all claiming Christians today! Matthew 13:24-30
But Jesus has warned honest hearted persons that it's "BY THEIR FRUIT" you will fish out false religious groups claiming Christians! Matthew 7:15-20
The FRUITS in question means deeds that everyone can SEE, so it's unfair after knowing all these to continue categorising Christianity with all false religions created by Satan!
Know today that mankind is inclined to worship,so you shouldn't let it escape your notice that it's impossible for FAKES to exist without the ORIGINAL somewhere!
That's why i was determined to find that single original, and i'm obliged to tell you that it's Christianity the one and only group fitting all that was written in the Bible today are Jehovah's Witnesses!

9inches:
Your signature says you don't believe truth is absolute. Is that really how you live your life?

ogyunging:
Joseph1013

Most people tend to believe they are the centre of the world, and their culture is the linchpin of human history. Many Greeks believe that history began with Homer, Sophocles and Plato, and that all important ideas and inventions were born in Athens, Sparta, Alexandria or Constantinople. Chinese nationalists retort that history really began with the Yellow Emperor and the Xia and Shang dynasties, and that whatever Westerners, Muslims or Indians achieved is but a pale copy of original Chinese breakthroughs.

Hindu nativists dismiss these Chinese boasts, and argue that even airplanes and nuclear bombs were invented by ancient sages in the Indian subcontinent long before Confucius or Plato, not to mention Einstein and the Wright brothers. Did you know, for example, that it was Maharishi Bhardwaj who invented rockets and aeroplanes, that Vishwamitra not only invented but also used missiles, that Acharya Kanad was the father of atomic theory, and that the Mahabharata accurately describes nuclear weapons?

Yo friend.
I read the Mahabharata and Ramayana growing up, I always thought the stories had a bit of truth in them. Your write up just blew my mind. I have to go back and devour them. Bless

TATIME:
Most people likes lying to their own soul! You're blaiming all "believers" for evil deeds committed in the name of religion. I've been trying to explain to you that TRUE Christians NEVER participate in killing of any kind.
But you've resolved to blame everyone claiming believers for your choice to become FAITHLESS!
Know today that true Christians are now been separated from the religious confusion that Satan created to turn everyone against the true God!
According to Jesus, before the destruction of ungodly people true worshippers will be
*SEPARATED from other religious groups.
*known for love amongst themselves.
*have nothing to do with WORLDLY politics.
*preaching and teaching globally.
*have youths well mannered.
*hated for purity and equity.
So if you're now blaming religion for your faithlessness, know today that your claims are unjustified. It could be during the dark ages when TRUE Christianity wasn't standing out!