₦airaland Forum

joseph1832:
I was born into a very Christian family, into the strict order and dogmatic ways of the Eternal Sacred Order of the Cherubim and Seraphim. Religion was all I knew then and going to church was paramount!. I was liberated when I was in my second year in Uniben.

may I ask how that came about? I often wonder what it takes to break free from it when you're in deep already.

Empiree:
Humm, not at all. if you paid close attention, you could've seen these christian fellas actually hijacked your thread by constantly trying to paint Islam for "inventing" slavery. Okay, I wont go any further from here for the purpose of this thread. I will just complete my replies and fold my arms. Fair enough?.

By "you" I meant everybody involved Do complete your replies by all means and have a very good night!

[quote author=Empiree post=30955401][/quote]what I think? Ok, where do I start...

1) I think that you have hijacked this thread with preaching and attempts to shove your belief down people's throat, and I'm not too happy about it

2) blasphemy exists only in the framework of your belief. Since I don't believe in any of these gods I don't see how my words can insult them, because according to me they don't exist

3) it's like you are unable to think outside the box of your own indoctrination, else you'd know this.

4) When I say the gods are created in man's image I don't mean how they LOOK. I mean the character traits that are attributed to them. Can you seriously deny that the Christian god and Allah (as presented to us in the "holy" books) appear to be human (and rather archaic human) in the way they argue, judge, and act?

5) why exactly would anyone believe in a god that you can't see, can't hear, can't smell, can't feel and can't contact? The more reasonable conclusion is that such a god simply doesn't exist

6) one can't "hate" something that doesn't exist. I don't "hate" any god because I don't believe any of them exists. I do hate organised religion and its ugly excesses though.

7) since this thread has been hijacked by a discussion about whether christians or muslims are slave traders: kindly look at reality. Both are, TODAY. Nigerian christians sell women as sex slaves to Europe into forced prostitution, and muslim Mauritania is still deeply into slavery, just as an example. Seriously, what is this crap about one religion blaming the other for whatever each of them does? How does it matter who did it first?! Fact is: both did it, and both still do. It's so ridiculous!

joseph1832:
That's exactly what brainwashing does, it erodes ones ability to think/reason. Were you born a christian or moslem?

I was born as a naked little human with a brain that was thankfully not killed with moronic madness right from the start. I did grow up somewhat Catholic, but not in a very religious surrounding. How about you?

joseph1832:
Isn't that what religion preaches? "Blind followership" thus warrants "blind obedience". Obey without asking questions. That is truly the wonder, how a set of people who have brains will choose to follow what they're been told than allow themself think.

So true. I couldn't say i understand it. It's a mystery to me how one can totally shut off the ability to think because of brainwashing. But then again i never was brainwashed.

mmsen:
Brazil still has issues with corruption, anyone who follows the news would know this (recent scandal)- http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/brazil-prosecutors-seek-155b-petrobras-corruption-case-29105011

The Catholic Church is one of the world's most opaque and inherently crooked institutions in one of the most corrupt nations in Europe (Italy) - http://ncronline.org/blogs/essays-theology/financial-scandal-catholic-church

The Catholic Church is in no position to push an anti-corruption message. At least the Federal Government is not covering up mass child abuse.


P.S.
Prayer is an epic waste of time.

Exactly!

joseph1832:
Understanding is what many of them lack as they always hold fast to what their pastor tell them. They will never bother to find out for themselves.

Its such a wonder that Nigerians have become more religious than the people who brought religion to them.

I doubt it's a wonder. It seems to be more the result of bad education and a social system that detests critical thinking but is very fond of "obedience". And then of course too many are benefitting from it. It's probably the biggest business in naija. Too many have an interest in an uneducated and uncritical population.

reality777:
Are u insinuating that prayers for Nigeria is useless? If prayer did it for Brazil then it will do it for Nigeria ok. You should learn to copy and apply the good things in life or do u read testimonies upside down? Go back to the original post, read it and digest it then ask relevant questions if u dont understand what happened in it.

Yes that is exactly what i am insinuating. You can either look at a "testimony" or at reality.

simplex2:
My mind isn't made up. It worries me day and night. I make sacrifices to put things in shape: whenever she's around, we go to church together. Moving on won't be ideal for me; what happens when I move on and fall in love with another christian? I move on again? And again? I'm agnostic and not an atheist, at such, frivolous things as religion and existence/non-existence of god doesn't border me for once.

I want to spend the rest of my life together and can even accommodate her religious excesses (as long as it doesn't affect my finances and future children) but will she be willing to do same? My greatest fear!

I understand you. i know it's not easy to look at things unemotionally when you are in love, but i'm afraid it's necessary here. Ask yourself: do you WANT to put up with religious excesses day after day? Is it realistic that it won't affect your finances and children? You probably don't have the intention to get married more than once, so you should be very sure about who you spend the rest of your life with. Even if you move on now there is no obligation to fall in love with another overly religious one next time. Take a very close look at the person next time before you invest yourself emotionally.

joseph1832:
I tell you religion has enslave many who do not even know that they're slaves!.

Simplex2 talking it out with his girl friend will only complicate issues. When two people have opposing views, they always tend to contradict each other, especially if they both have strong belief they are right!. Its the classic case between Christians and Moslems, and just how well have both fared?.

This same thing have happened to me, I was wooing a girl who actually liked my lyrics, she has already said yes, as an after thought she asked if I go to church, simply told her I don't, then came all the kasala! I mean this girl practically disturbed the living day light out of me. She even asked me to attend her church which I did several times. I discovered that any time I tell her I want to see her she'll give me flimsy excuses, but when she tell me she wants to see me I oblige her, and she usually turn it into a preaching session which I always listen.

I was pissed a certain day when she told me via WhatsApp that I'm one stubborn guy, that most guys she speaks to about christianity usually succumb but not me. She told me that I don't listen. Then I actually reminded her that was there ever a time she told me to come to her church that I didn't come? She said no, and also if there was anytime she told me she want to see me and I didn't show? She said no, then I now asked her if she has ever oblige me by coming to see me when I tell her I want to see her, she kept mute, I now asked her who listen between myself and her, she kept mute. By this time I was really pissed, I just told her that "there can never be any relationship between a slave and a free man".

Since then, I've learnt never to have any personal dealings with anybody who is an ardent church goer.

I sure wonder why they are all so fanatic?!!? Nothing good comes from it, ever. It's actually quite tragic how this madness has gotten to a point that it destroys everything that could be beautiful and human. I would nevr even consider getting into a relationship or marriage with someone who is more than just a tiny bit religious. Understanding and reasonable exchange seems impossible in such a setting.

simplex2:
Does she have the capacity to think outside the box? YES! Will she be willing to go that road? That, I cannot say! You know how offensive religion makes one be. When you present hard facts, you will be taken as a lost soul who doesn't even deserve a listening ear.

I will cite an example. I gave her money for something relating to school last month and she used a tenth of it to pay tithe and sowed some seed with a part of the remaining. The money was no longer complete and she didn't have the nerve to tell me. It was money meant for her off-camp accommodation. When the landlord/caretaker's pressure became unbearable, she told me about it. I was so shocked/mad about it. I confronted her and we had this bitter argument over the phone. I was trying to make her see that her student/pastor was feasting off the students but she was understanding it that I was angry that she paid tithe and sowed seed because I was the one that gave her the money.

I was so pained! Here was I working my a'rse off to make ends meet and someone else is at the alter, making some gibberish proclamations and hoodwink naïve people to drop cash for him.

This is just a case among many! Its just becoming a little unbearable. The worst is that the 'offensive' religious attitude comes in play and negates any form of reasoning that would have taken place.

Apart from the love we have for each other, I don't think I will like to see myself having these sort of issues over-time. Trust me, even love itself has a breaking point.

Yep, it sure does, and after this post i have a feeling your mind is actually made up. If you know already that this is not how you want to live and you don't see any convincing development after some serious talk, i would advise you to move on and find someone who thinks like you. Everything else would most likely only lead to constant arguing and frustration on both sides.

joseph1832:
You think? Believe me if she's the type who feels her religion supercedes every other they may have problems, no matter the speaking to simplex2 may do.

What I've discovered about these christians, nope! I'll call them church goers is that they believe in absolutes!. Its either their way or no other way.

Simplex2, if she's been pestering you about why you stopped going to church rest assured that even if you guys get married, religion will still be an issue and she might take your case to her pastor who in turn may feed her his version of Sunday tonic which she'll bring to your face.

My advice to you is to stand firm in what you believe in, and always trust your feelings....

Oh i totally do agree with you. It's just that he doesn't want to lose her, so they at least can try to sort it out. From what i've seen i also have huge doubts that she'd understand it and not make a fuss about it. But then again what other way is there than to talk? Should it end due to this then at least both know why.

simplex2:
Yes, I know I should speak with her first; infact, that was the major reason I backed out of the supposed intro last year. I'm just not certain of the outcome. I can't risk losing her for something as false and irrelevant as religion. I just wish she sees things the way I do. I've tried to discuss it indirectly with her but the direction the discussion takes makes me to withdraw. I don't rob it in people's face that I'm agnostic; I don't even dabble into religious arguments offline. I let people hug whatever rocks their boat. I just wish there's a way I'd make her understand the fraud in religion without making it look like the only option for her if we'd spend the rest of our lives together.

This is not an easy situation at all, sorry. Do you think she is generally willing and able to think outside the box of what she has been indoctrinated with, provided that you explain your reasons and why it is a fraud very well?

simplex2:
Wow! Nice thread. There are loads of issues we can discuss in-house. Was thinking of starting a thread about certain things but decided against it; since the obvious religious felas will invade it with their fanaticism.



This is the first issue bugging me: My girlfrnd. We've dated for yrs now and we're planning on getting married next year. But one thing has always lingered in my mind: religion!
I'm agnostic but she is a devout christian. We started dating long time ago when I was still a christian; but after my mum's death, I realized all the promise of ask and it shall be given were false. That was the spark to my quest for answers: and I discovered I've been lied to ALL MY FVCKING LIFE!

I was supposed to see her parents this xmas but I developed cold feet and called it off. I'm yet to tell her I've left religion; she's yet to understand why I backed-off. Don't get me wrong, we love each other like mad! This is our 4th year dating. I do love her but the issue of spending the rest of your life with someone of contrasting believe scares the shit out of me; what happens to the children? What if she believes she can rope me in and then turns to a nag thereafter? I know I should tell her, but I'm still scared of loosing her. I wouldn't want her dumping her religion because of me so its kind of complicated.

What do you guys think?

I also think that you need to speak to her. It's only fair, and if you are patient and cautious she may start asking questions as well. You probably wouldn't have a problem with her belief if it were low-key and she's not being a pest about it? If this doesn't work, then i guess it's realistic to say that such a marriage wouldn't work well. The only way to find out though is getting into a respectful dialogue.

reality777:
Opinions are needed here please. Lets see how to make a positive change in this country.

Nigeria is the most religious and at the same time one of the most corrupt countries in the world. Use a speck of common sense and you'll easily see that prayers obviously are not effective against corruption.

true2god:
I like your style of argument but i refuse to accept the notion that colonialism is the cause of Africa's backwardness. Many asia countries, with the exception of Japan and china, were colonized, but today they are advanced countries and economies.

South korea, indonesia, singapore, malaysia, india, taiwan were all colonized, but today they are well developed above african countries. Many south koreans are fundamental christians and that does not in any way hamper their technological advancement.

In the middle ages, the arabs colonized many european countries, like spain, portugal, southern france and part of italy, but today europeans are world leaders.

So the argument that colonialism and christianity is the cause of african problems is not true.

I'm well aware that it's an opinion, and I also fully agree that there's more to it. But I'm still convinced it's part of Africa's problems. I'm actually less focused on the past though, it's just that we need to look at history to understand any given situation today. The big question is now where to even start to overcome this situation. I don't have an answer to that. Maybe being more rational, self-critical and honest would be a good start.

Empiree:
agnostic or you are now completely atheist?

I'm a total atheist when it comes to all the gods people have invented in their history as these were obviously all created in man's image and as a measure for people to explain the world around them and to organize their societies. I can't possibly believe in a god that suspiciously resembles a bronze age warlord, just to name one example. Many other gods were invented to reflect the bright and dark sides of human nature. We humans tend to see ourselves as the center of everything, and our gods reflect that.
I can't exclude that there is "something" out there, and I don't think we'll ever know. If there is such a thing as god I imagine it to be way beyond our imagination and certainly not some measly humanoid being that is obsessed with (only) us humans, that requires our praise and worship and is a control freak when it comes to what we do in bed, how we dress etc. Just like the sadistic and narcissistic traits humans attribute to their gods. Those are purely projections of human ideas and totally irrelevant in the bigger picture of eternity or whatever we wish to call it.

Empiree:
Were you theist at some point? which religion?

I wouldn't call it that. While I did grow up Catholic I started questioning the whole thing very early in life. It just never seemed to make much sense, and the older I grew and the more I looked into it from different angles, the less sense it made.

dabosuker:
@Liekiller, I just told the bar tender to get you a drink , whats your brand??
Very well said!...Religions seem to have similar DNA, ..instill guilt, instill fear, after-death reward, duress..etc

lets have one or two together. Anything you order oo!

michaelwestern:
Please explain to me how christianity is responsible for Nigeria's underdevelopment years after colonization.

That was not exactly my statement, but let me try to explain what I mean, michaelwestern. I said colonialism is the ROOT of the underdevelopment. Forcing Christianity on Africa was only a part of this, but a major one. As a result of colonialism, African cultures and societies were destroyed. These could have developped on their own and in unique ways, had they been left uninterrupted. Of course we can't know for sure in which way this would have taken place, but as a metaphor: if you let a seedling grow in peace it develops into a tree. If you cut if off at the root while in its infancy, it may develop into a malformed bush or die. This is pretty much what colonialism did. Christianity as the religion forced upon Africa during that time was used the eradicate African cultures, traditions, values and belief systems. The African sense of its own history and roots was cut off. How many of us even know that we have a history before colonialism, and how many care? Don't many - maybe unconciously and deep inside - feel that our forefathers actually WERE the "savages" they were portayed as by the colonialists?

As someone who has experienced both African and European reality I can say that most African societies today promote values that are 90% those of 18th century Europe. While Europe has moved way beyond these values, Africa hasn't. Religion (in its most fundamentalist and conservative and dare I say sinister form) is a major part of this. While I guess it's fair to say that poverty and hopelessness are an ideal breeding ground for exaggerated religious fervor, that's not the whole truth. Exaggerated religious fervor is also a cause of poverty and underdevelopment, and an obstacle in the way of a more educated, more active and more tolerant and peaceful society. It's a perpetuum mobile.

But there is still much more behind it. Let's have a look at who benefits from a people obsessed with religion today.

Firstly of course the clergy. The more uneducated and uncritical the people, the better for them. They can sell them all sorts of lies and get paid royally. All they need to do is perform a few fake "miracles" and indoctrinate people with fear of hellfire and promises of wealth and similar nonsense. Nobody is going to question them. Instead they will be paid and paid more for their lies and scams.

Secondly, the politicians. This follows a similar pattern of mind control. As you all know, our politicians have only one thing on their mind: power and money (their own, of course). So having an uncritical and uneducated population obsessed with religion is in their interest as well. Lets take the sudden extreme outbreak of homophobia in recent years as an example for what's going on.
Extremist homophobia is not an African value as we are made to believe. This was actually imported from the US. It is known that the US right wing fundamentalists (ironically they are known to be quite racist too) financed the anti-gay campaigns in Uganda. Similar things went on in Nigeria and still do.
So why is this in the interest of our leaders? Well, as long as people believe that their biggest problem is what a tiny and oppressed minority does in the secrecy of their bedroom, they won't be on the streets protesting against the corruption, criminality and looting of the said leaders - It's the perfect distraction strategy! Equally you won't expect any political activism and opposition if the same people are taught to "pray" over problems rather than to analyze and solve them. Neither will they be fighting for better education if you just indoctrinate them long enough that science is diabolical. Probably you can even convince them that too much NEPA, a functioning water supply and the like is a "sin". Then you can loot in peace and quiet, because the public will be busy beating gays to death and obsessing over other ridiculous matters that are entirely unrelated to reality and the ACTUAL problems.

This is how the plague of religious fanaticism helps in perpetuating a system that is rotten to the core. Nothing will ever change as long as a large majority live in a bubble of delusion and are basically out of touch with reality and what is really going on around them. Why do you think all major religions make us believe that rewards are only to be had after you die? Again, it's the same old story. This ensures that people are busy praying and obsessing over "sins" whereas they could also be out there changing the world in THIS life.

Ifeann:
To be honest I wanted to have a challenging, intelligent and lively conversation with you but several things u say just don't make sense.

For example, "But: increasing fanaticism is a huge worry nowadays. Ironically, this variety of Christianity is strongly supported, imported and financed by outlandish churches in the US"

What are u even taking about, us churches financing nigerian churches or did I misunderstand u.. Pls elaborate.

I don't have time to go into details right now so let me just provide you a few links for the time being so you can come to your own conclusions

http://www.politicalresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2012/10/Colonizing-African-Values.pdf

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jul/24/evangelical-christians-homophobia-africa

http://www.publiceye.org/publications/globalizing-the-culture-wars/pdf/africa-full-report.pdf

Ifeann:
I am not just a christain i am also a realist...
I don't praise what happened to Africans but i understand why it happened. .. infact Africans have been relatively lucky. .
Every civilization has its share of sad events case in point slavery for the africans, genocide for the native americans...holocaust for the jews, Hiroshima and Nagasaki for the Japanese, Britian and indeed europe has had countless wars for resources and otherwise, Spanish inquisition. .etc...its endless... humans tend to be very chaotic lifeform.. however atheism and attacking christainity is not the solution nor does it help on the least. ..

Africans have just refused to develop their society...

The root of Africa's undervelopment today IS colonialism. The destruction of entire societies and cultures was by no means a "liberation", and it's a terrible thing to say that. I'm not denying that a lot has gone wrong after it ended too, but the root lingers on and doesn't help matters. The religious madness we see today is a symptom as well as a cause of underdevelopment. I certainly don't say atheism is the solution to this. It's not, and it's not even my goal to change anyone's belief. But: increasing fanaticism is a huge worry nowadays. Ironically, this variety of Christianity is strongly supported, imported and financed by outlandish churches in the US. So, according to you the "liberation" continues. And I can tell you I'm not happy about it.

Ifeann:
We don't live in a perfect world. ..

ok I see. As I said, your true colurs are shining through. We live in a cruel and imperfect world indeed if you defend and praise what happened in those times and is still affecting Africa badly today. Where's your "Christian love"??

Ifeann:
I was under the impression u are African and the white folks came for u Africans with the gospel and their education.. what's the confusion. . Perhaps i should have said "africans" i only added "u" to emphasize u were liberated as well with other Africans. ..

I would expect you to say WE Africans if you actually are one. Apart from that your statement is just disgusting. Obviously you are not aware of the devastating consequences colonialism (of which forcing Christianity on Africa was a major part) had on the continent

Ifeann:
I won't even bother to doubt you. . U may as well be a professor of biology but ur assumed intellect is not reflected in the construct of the statements u have until now made. .. starting with the verbatim copy and paste from that silly website. .. that's unapologetic plagiarism man. .a post doc like u should know that

LOL now you definitely stopped making sense. "plagiarism"? haha. So if I post a link to a newspaper article it's plagiarism? do I have to go research and photograph a bomb attack myself to post it here?

Ifeann:
I am not American. .. i am not a racist, i am christain. . My roots are proudly African.

oh right, so why then did you refer to the readers as "u Africans"?

Ifeann:
If those terrible wicked white men didn't come with the gospel and education u Africans would still be blinded by ur superstitions And heathen traditions or perhaps beheaded for not converting to Islam like how usman dan fidio did in the North of Nigeria. .

Dude i make it clear i detest Islam. .

aaah now your true colours are shining through. Another American racist don show ooo

Ifeann:
The fellow is not a dr. I discuss with academics on a regular basis.. he doesnt sound like one... no offense drliekiller but i ain't buying it buddy..maybe u should give me an idea on what ur research paper was on..

Firstly, I'm not a "fellow", and secondly I'm a physical anthropologist, currently postdoc at a university in the diaspora. More specifically: bachelor in general biology (included math, physics, chemistry, biochemistry, molecular biology, genetics, zoology, botany, evolution, microbiology etc.), then masters in physical anthropology (included primatology, comparative anatomy, human anatomy, osteology, primate evolution etc. etc.) and archaeology and palaeontology, then PhD in physical anthropology. Published a few peer-reviewed and other papers too which I don't care to quote here since my identity is attached to them. No, I don't really care if you believe it or not, but it's the truth. So, let's get another dose of Joshthefirst toxine

Joshthefirst:
Lol. All you have done is copy and paste from evil bible then rant about having a doctorate in biology. How do you think anyone is going to take you seriously? Singing about your supposed higher knowledge of these things when you have demonstrated none here. Or should I start going about my own credentials? Do you think shouting about a doctorate will give credence to the nothingness you have shown so far? Doctorate I hear.

And the burden is on you to give a single scrap of evidence of common descent here since you spout it as fact, but you have given nothing but referrals to imaginary works so far. Makes me think you are afraid of having any serious conversation for fear of embarrassment of your very educated self.

Very well Dr. Liekiller, stick to copying and pasting evil bible. When you want to have a real scientific conversation inform people who are interested.

I mentioned that because I was ASKED. But yeah, just keep spewing your hatred about everything. People like you are another reason to turn my back on religion. I haven't seen you produce anything but vitriolic hatred here that is so characteristic for your kind, so what exactly do you want? Go read Nature, Science etc. if you want science. IT'S ALL PUBLISHED!!! I have NO obligation at all to waste hours and hours re-typing published research here, and I certainly won't. So why don't you publish your own papers in order to disprove it since you claim you can with your brilliant credentials? I'll certainly read it once it's in Nature

so if you want to check out some of the imaginary works after all feel free to go to
http://www.sciencedirect.com
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/
etc. etc.
Then type "evolution" in the search bar, or whatever else you can't resist learning about.

Denying that the research even exists is SO ridiculous

Ifeann:
That u agree or don't agree is irrelevant. .. Google for this evidence, it is avaliable online. Even Havard university traces its roots to christainity. ..it used to be a seminary school owned by the church.. .. Dont think i am trying to defend Catholicism. .i am often critical of it but the truth must be said.

Again i believe the bible, i also think some stories are allegorical. . Even Jesus spoke in parables and use hyperboles......

U don't expect God to state all the physics, maths chemistry and biology that was used to create life. .it isn't even neccessary to know ask that in such a manner, can all that information even be contained in a billion pages of manuscripts. . It's better we find out ourselves. ..

Again the bible supports the big bang theory, it supports the spherical shape of the earth. . It supports so many other facts that we know now that could not have been known 3000 years ago when the statements were recorded..

Unlike the quran in which several of Mohammed's claim has been disproven, the sun setting in a pool of muddy water, flat shaped earth, camel urine as medicine, dipping files in ur cup to balance the cure with the disease etc. .

I am happy u agree that christainity and science don't need to be mutual exvlusive.... can u now make posts affirming this rather than attacking christains ..

Shalom my friend..

Certainly in the long history of its existence the Catholic church has been involved in education, most notably in the "education" and oppression of African "savages" at the time (and all too often even today). The same "poor savages" who now depend on their "charity" due to having had their culture, economy and societies destroyed by this charitable organisation. Don't even get me started about it

Either way, I have the impression that your main reason to participate in this discussion is to bash Islam every now and then? How does that go together with your statements earlier in this thread please?

Ifeann:
Ok tell me when u are a member of it in physics, meta physics, chemistry, mathematics and all the other grey areas of science which can't still explain the universe. ..

your point and/or question is.... what?

Ifeann:
Would it surprise u if i told u the Vatican is one of the biggest supporters of science and education in the world. ..not to mention the leading contributor to charity initiatives in the world. ..

Christainity and science don't need to be mutually exclusive.

While I don't agree with your statement about the Vatican I certainly do agree that religion and science don't need to be mutually exclusive. Millions of non-fanatic Christians worldwide are the living proof. They have no problem accepting evolution and other scientific results as a fact, because they don't take the bible literally.