₦airaland Forum

shdemidemi:
When did healing the sick become a scale for measuring selflesnees?

When did having faith to receive forgiveness for your own sin become a scale for measuring selflessness?

No need to ramble, for faith to be selfless it MUST be used or directed to help someone else get faith or develop more faith in Jesus. So think of the many things that fit into that box.

vooks:
There is something about making proselytes twice as son of hell.
If you tell them that their faith is useless because they are 'just' forgiven, you beat Jews in looking for a sign. That's not faith growing into something, that's faith diluted. That's John the Baptist wondering whether Jesus is the Messiah halfway through his assignment

If all we needed faith for was for receiving forgiveness then there is no need for faith to grow.

Galatians 5:13 KJV

For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

vooks:
I don't know but forgiveness of sins is far much greater than the most spectacular miracle. So it is a question of WHAT you want their faith to show.
The Jew wants a sign

There is a faith for salvation from sin, forgiveness and one for healing etc for self. Good. But until one's faith is used in service for others then that faith is still in the confines of selfishness and Christ hasn't been fully formed in such a person because true faith is motivated by love for others.

There is a world of sick, broke, depressed and frustrated men. A rendezvous of broken humanity. Are we to tell them to remain that way till the next world or can we do something about it through faith? Paul says faith works by love (Galatians 5:6).

So let that faith grow away from just receiving forgiveness. Let it also help heal sick but forgiven men. Ciao.

vooks:
It is well my brother.
Those two extremist positions are toxic

I just won't go as far as claiming their faith is invalid if they have nothing to show by way of the miraculous

Their faith is not invalid if they have nothing to show. It is invalid if they insist that it has nothing to show.

flourishG:
Dude da gospel is not shameful but glorious. U n ya Joe r da shameful people shaming christianity

If it will give you peace of mind, you are right. We are shaming Christianity and you are extolling it. You and the JWs, Atheists, Agnostics and other confused people are doing a fine job extolling Christianity.

flourishG:
U r a shameless man in your entire generation for da statement. U know who da bible call a man of God?

God bless you.

Romans 1:16 for I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the POWER of God unto SOTERIA to all that believe whether Nigerian or American.

vooks:
My brother,
I know too well that a Mount Carmel experience is most believer's nirvana where raw power of God settles argument. And I know one too many urban legends along those lines. Those are EXCEPTION and extremely rare. How many believers turn to Christ out of the miraculous? Very few. Am one of them. Look at the church history. Was the church sustained by the miraculous? For a better part of its life, Christianity was just about as miraculous as atheism. And even today, it is largely propelled by anything but the miraculous.

In Acts 2, it was Peter's preaching not tongues that drew them to God. The tongues MERELY aroused their curiosity and actually caused a significant number to dismiss them as drunks.

Your two sentences below shows your intention and mindset; no power, no faith. Once again,this statement is in bad taste. You will only believe God if you saw miracles, otherwise he is as powerful as Shiva.

Remember the rich man in hell;

Luke 16:29 -31 (KJV)
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Recall also Jesus' words;

Matthew 11:20-24 (KJV)
Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: 21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

They witnessed Jesus at His finest and repented not. Who told you that miracles quadrupled today among Christians would draw more men and demolish arguments?

I have nothing else to add apart from appeal to you to withdraw those words in blues. Thank you

Brother, there is no need for the front and backs. My words very clear and my concomitant explanations were equally as clear. The 2 people I engaged in the cause of making that statement are professed christians who say

1. No christian has the Holy Spirit in him
2. The Holy Spirit's role as it was in the early church has ended.

You have engaged number 2 and you didn't sway him even if the both of you kept tossing scriptures at each other. What you didn't know about Number 2 is that you were right in saying with his style of discussing scriptures he would still maintain his beliefs in the next 20 years. We can readily prove it by viewing his past exchanges with people from last year to the year before on the same issues. What that brother needs is a demonstration and not the endless arguments.

I have few words for the number one because he is even more confused. Try telling him from scripture that the Holy Spirit enables you to speak in tongues amd watch him tell you that you do not have him in you. Then let me see you debate scriptures with him.

As per my claims, I would not be retracting them as they are not wrong and I can back them up with many scriptures. I never said seeing is believing. I said if you believe something long enough you will see it. So it is not about using miracles to convince anyone. It is about proving that what I believe is right by demonstrating it and showing that it works. Thank you.

BabaGnoni:
I am not sure what you agreed with, as I certainly didn't say wealth, prophecy, miracles, healing etcetera are on the other side of eternity

I think you might have just paraphrased me without the aim or intention to achieve greater clarity with it
- you've tried repeating my remark(s), but ended up repeating it out of context, omitted words or watered it down a bit and thereby misrepresented the crux and intent of my original remark(s)

This is part of what I said:
Wealth, prophecy, miracles, healing etc all are for the moment and so have a shelf life (i.e. after a length of time they all become immaterial, unusable, unfit for consumption, inconsequential etc)

Three things will last forever--faith, hope, and love--and the greatest of these is love.
- 1 Corinthians 13:13 NLT

1 Corinthians 13:13 above is a summation of what the new brigade is all about (i.e. a full circle, back to Eden, where Adam, pre-fall, was meant to live a life based on faith, hope and love)

What are the specifics that SOME are saying, are already immaterial now? (i.e. is unimportant under the circumstance now)
What exactly is the "they" that are already immaterial now? (i.e. a list of what are immaterial now as allegedly said by SOME)

mbaemeka, mind you, what SOME might be saying is that, unimportant now doesn't necessarily mean, it does not happen, it can't or it won't happen. SOME might be saying that these things though unimportant now to some degree, are still valid, as they are parameters, in the use-by-date or expiration date function (i.e. the shelf-life or time-to-live function) The sovereign power of God however has a stake in all this too and at will supersede events situations or outcome



Reading that "...how could that be..." just struck me as a catchphrase of a world famous person known for saying that
- what a small world we live in

Huh?

I said the et al would be immaterial on the other side of eternity because I understood that to be your position and I agreed with it. If that is not your position let me know so I can retract my agreement with you.

Joagbaje the man of God!!

Blessed are those who are not offended by him.

I am refreshed.

shdemidemi:
I hope you understand we are not linked to Abraham By flesh but by spirit, in that our belief was accounted to us as righteousness just as his.

We are connected to all the Abrahamic blessings. We being those who are linked to Abraham by the spirit.

hahaha.. tongues of angel wouldn't be an end in itself, would it? You speak in that tongue for the purpose of a consequent reaction. My question was if such reaction you get have never or can never be experienced by an unbeliever?

Yes sir. No Unbeliever can receive that gift of the Holy spirit.

BabaGnoni:
The shelf life occurs for the things mentioned above at the other side of the part of life or eternity
- there, they will be no need for money, no need for healing, no need wealth, no need for prophecy, no need for miracles etc. No need at that side.

"the time for such to be immaterial" sic, is undeniable or unquestionable

What really, exactly or specifically is what you "may not agree with is what people interpret as the time for such to be immaterial." sic

Some say they are already immaterial now. You are different. You say it is on the other side of eternity and I agree with that.

vooks:
We have one verse by John's contemporaries who listened him and watched his prophecies/teachings about Jesus come to pass. They saw no MIRACLES. Whatever supernatural thing John orchestrated, he did no miracle. Can't get simpler than that. If we are to doubt their no-miracle observation, we may as well doubt their testimony to the accuracy of his teachings on Jesus

I said John did NO SIGNS (i.e didn't heal the sick etc.) and that is exactly what the bible said: signs and not MIRACLES. A miracle does not have to be spectacular. What qualifies anything to be called a miracle is it's supernatural descent, cause or initiation. In that sense, John's ability to identify the Messiah was nothing short of miraculous. That's all I have said.

Imagine how scanty John's life details are and John will not bother correcting the erroneous notion he observed made about the greatest of all OT prophets. Luke told us that Jesus went about doing good. May be He didn't it is Luke who THOUGHT He did.

Here is the reasoning. If Jesus had done no signs, wonders, mighty deeds but he was able to tell the woman at the well her life history she would have still referred to him as a Prophet even though the multitudes would have been right in saying Jesus performed no signs. She would have been right in calling Jesus a Prophet because he did something miraculous by telling her things about herself that she didn't expect anyone else to know let alone a Jewish stranger. It was miraculous because he could have only known it beyond natural means A.K.A supernaturally.

Does it bother you that the greatest of all OT prophets did no miracles SIGNS and he was effective?

The emboldened doesn't bother me. He proved his office by identifying the Christ- healing the sick et al albeit wonderful add or take nothing away from his calling.

You said the only thing that distinguishes one message from the other are signs otherwise we will be arguing till eternity. You basically scoffed at a the very thought of propagating the gospel without any signs and miracles. You were not arguing about the existence of miracles but the necessity of the same for sharing Christ. Please withdraw that statement.

That word only is very strong. You might do me well to point where I said that is the only way to distinguish one message from another. The point I was trying to make is for e.g someone says the name of Jesus is not for the church. Jesus only said it to the "Jewish believers" and they were able to latch-on to what the Holy Spirit was doing post-Pentecost that is why the signs and wonders were possible then. And I refute that statement by saying Jesus was referring to all those who believe in him, How are we to resolve the issue? I can take up a case (Like meeting a demoniac) and I can cast out that demon to prove to the cessation guy that the word still works. That is the best way to settle the dispute instead of the endless quibbling over words and Paul shares sentiments with me. Read him:

1 Corinthians 2:4-5Amplified Bible (AMP)
4 And my language and my message were not set forth in persuasive (enticing and plausible) words of wisdom, but they were in demonstration of the [Holy] Spirit and power [[a]a proof by the Spirit and power of God, operating on me and stirring in the minds of my hearers the most holy emotions and thus persuading them],

5 So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the power of God.

Must God back his word with signs else He does not exist to you? Blessed are they who believe without seeing

Ofcourse no. I believed the word before I saw anything and I recommend it for all christians but I have found out from experience that if you believe something (the bible way), you would act like it is true and you will doubtless see that it is.

Let me share the story I heard from someone about a show where they brought a christian and some atheist or Pagan I don't know, to debate on the verisimilitude of the word of God and Christianity as a whole. The show began with the Atheist saying all sorts of blasphemous things about the bible while the christian looked on. When the atheist seemed to be getting too far the Christian instructed the demon talking through that atheist to come out in the name of Jesus. There and then, the atheist started manifesting and the debate was ended. You see, what he could not do by arguing the logos with the atheist with persuasive words he did by simply demonstrating the power of the word. That is the level we ought to be at.

One pastor said he went to India to preach and as soon as he brought out his bible the people there in brought out many other religious books like the Koran etc. Whenever the Pastor said A they would read something else from those other books that seemed to contradict what the Pastor had said and then ask him which they should now believe. The Pastor left India sad. Years later and after seeking the Lord he went back to India and as usual he met those folks who liked to refer to the words of other books. This time around the Pastor came prepared. When those folks tried to contradict him, he looked for a sick person and commanded the ailment to check out in Jesus' name and it did then he asked them to do same in the name of whatever deity they believed in and of course, nothing happened. Debate ended, now they had to believe in the bible. Someone said, what if the Indians performed a bigger sign than the Pastor and I said how could that be? At the mention of the name of Jesus, every other power bows. That's what the bible says and I believe it.

I am only quoting the areas that I either do not agree with or probably do not understand.

BabaGnoni:
Wealth, prophecy, miracles, healing etc all are for the moment and so have a shelf life (i.e. after a length of time they all become immaterial, unusable, unfit for consumption, inconsequential etc)

Three things will last forever--faith, hope, and love--and the greatest of these is love.
- 1 Corinthians 13:13 NLT

1 Corinthians 13:13 above is a summation of what the new brigade is all about (i.e. a full circle, back to Eden, where Adam, pre-fall, was meant to live a life based on faith, hope and love)

The question now is when does the emboldened happen? i.e when does the shelf life occur for the things you mentioned above. I do agree with Paul in that verse of scripture. What I may not agree with is what people interpret as the time for such to be immaterial.

Also mbaemeka, you can writhe (by the way, mind you, no offense meant by that) as much as you want to but it must be said, moreso for the sake of posterity and especially for the records, that it'll be a hard task you finding and quoting anyone (i.e. THOSE; sic) who rule out the existence, possibility or necessity of wealth or ability to wrought miracles (sic; somewhat)

Please quote verbatim (i.e. THOSE) or otherwise, THOSE that do not believe in posterity, healings, existence of the supernatural, ability to wrought miracles, wealth etc

Sorry to disappoint you this time around but now is not the time or venue for this. Maybe brother Shdemidemi can take it from here.

shdemidemi:
Do you agree God does not necessarily need to make a true christian wealthy?

God is not trying to make any christian wealthy anymore than he is trying to make them righteous. Wealth and Righteousness are part of the blessings of Abraham that came on the gentiles by christ Jesus.

What signs or wonders have you experienced as a christian that is beyond what an unbeliever or non-christian can also
experience?

I speak in tongues of angels for e.g.

vooks:
The point is, there was something John lacked compared to Jesus and His disciples. No signs nor wonders did John perform. They go hand in hand those two. The guys who said he did no signs were privy to his oratorical skills and their effects yet they said he did no miracle. Whatever supernatural measure manifested in him,he did NO MIRACLE.

shdemidemi:
John did no SiGNS means he did nothing supernatural to the visible eyes like Moses, Elijah,Jesus, Peter or Paul.

No they don't go hand in hand per se and a miracle is not ALWAYS spectacular- but it is ALWAYS supernatural so the claim that John did nothing supernatural is false.

I asked questions and none has been attempted by the both of you. I never claimed that John healed the sick or turned water to wine whether in public or secret. The bible says John was a Prophet and as such he proved his calling by spotting out the Messiah from a large crowd.

I hope you know that we have more knowledge about Jesus now than John did back then. So that should help you factor in how much of a prophet he truly was and how supernatural picking and baptizing Jesus was. Others believed in Jesus' calling when they saw the signs, but John spotted Jesus out without a single sign- he knew by revelation of the spirit and that my friends is not natural!

The bible also says Abraham and David were Prophets and they too had no signs but some of the things they were able to see in the realm of the spirit and also say out made them Prophets. So let us consider the message holistically. That aside, I never said anyone's christianity was proven by his wealth or ability to wrought miracles. We should however be wary of those who rule out its existence, possibility or necessity. Also, if anyone who calls himself a christian believes in the word of God with his spirit, it is only a matter of time. The belief will show up in signs, wonders, miracles and mighty deeds and I stand by that.

^

The bible said SIGNS for that was the actual translation in greek. The word frequently used for Jesus MIRACLES was ERGO meaning deeds, acts etc. So yes John did no SIGNS but he walked in the miraculous and that's what I am trying to show you.

1. John could SEE the Holy Spirit descend on Jesus.
2. John's baptism could Elicit such an occurrence
3. When John preached people's hearts burned with fire. The same way the bible says when Jesus opened the understanding of his disciples on the journey along Emmaus they too felt their hearts burn with fire. It was more than a mere preaching brother. It was the type of conviction that made them believe the word enough to stake their lives for it, something they weren't ready to do just a few days earlier.

NB: I didn't say he did his miracles to ONLY his disciples. I said it was the multitude of Jews that said to themselves "this man didn't show any SIGNS like healing the sick, raising the dead etc. But it was divine for him to spot Jesus out" (same way it was divine for Peter to call Jesus the Christ, the son of God).

Also, the Holy Spirit let us even know the words of the devil and of liars. It doesn't mean whatever they said was true.

vooks:
John 10:41 King James Version (KJV)
41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.

John must have been a hopelessly boring prophet; all talk and no show

2 things
a) John did no SIGNS
b) The people said. Not the disciples.

Now tell me, the ability to spot out the Messiah from a large crowd of people or to see the Holy Spirit descend on him is it short of miraculous? What about how John preached to the point that people's hearts began to born with fire and a strong zeal to repent was it also short of miraculous? Was John's Water baptism ordinary?

PaulGrundy,

I agree with everything you have said above. It's quite unfortunate at the turn of events albeit I wasn't privileged to see any of the said videos as I am one of those that staunchly believes the name of Jesus can heal any sickness or disease and as such, I ALWAYS believe in any miracle wrought in the name.

What was also unfortunate, is how otherwise naturally intelligent men kept intentionally misconstruing the stories and at times twisting them to make bro Jo look guilty. For example, Jo said he got the inner witness in himself that whoever he prayed for in that video got healed and when the so-called Jeff Niboro claimed the person to be him and also that he had medical proof that he was indeed healed of HIV Jo believed him wholeheartedly- who wouldn't? Especially when a HIV positive status is something that 99% of those suffering from, prefer to keep it clandestine. That's why Jo had the confidence to upload the video. But what did the naysayers claim? They claimed that Jo said the inner witness told him Jeff was the person in the video and one of them raised it as a poser to the cheers of his mischievous brothers.

As per John, he is now claiming to be giving Jo a soft-landing but that is not the case. Even he is convinced without a doubt that Jo is no fraud. He is only here to get his cheer-team heap faux praises on him while he surreptitiously attempts to bilk Jo of half a million Naira. Anyone reading his write-ups can tell that Jo only believed someone who wasn't telling the truth because he was trying to prove to these guys that the name of Jesus still heals today.

I didn't bother commenting on that thread about an hour ago when I peeped in and saw it. I have seen supposed true gospelers, atheists, mockers of the faith and JWs stand together and agree on one thing that they are so excited about. Let a few weeks pass and you would see 'caustic13' and 'irrationalsouls' say Christianity as a whole is fake and watch how the true gospelers won't be able to say a word against it because to a subtle degree they have already concurred with the atheists by endorsing their bile on that thread.

There is still more to happen. Even those who criticized now would renege in the near future. Some would stubbornly trudge on and be exposed (Euphemism alert). Mark it.

shdemidemi:
Please show me where Christ say we will have money wealth because He died.

Galatians 3:13-14King James Version (KJV)

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Paul allude to the fact all through his epistles to the church. One of such instances was when he unveiled all that would have mattered before he came in to Christ
Phil 3:5
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.


These things were valuable to an average JEW, Paul equated all his achievements in the flesh as dunk. He described every member of the body of Christ as-

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Misquoted. To walk in faith one must subject or disregard the flesh. It has nothing to do with health or wealth.

1 Timothy 4:8King James Version (KJV)
8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

The gospel benefits us in this physical world AND the spiritual world to come- Paul.

I said I can't describe what the place will be like, but I liken it to the garden of Eden before the curse. A place where Jesus will rule as king, a place where God says will be far glorious than our present suffering, regardless of what the suffering in the world may be. I also believe there will be saints with stars, as such there will be hierarchy.

I don't know about traders, all I know is that there wouldn't be sickness or lack.

I agree. That's why I asked what health and wealth will be needed for there when we know there won't be any lack or the consciousness of it.

Where we might have issues is the definition of FAITH. The object of their faith is God and not how much they can work their mind to do the miraculous.

The miracles happened because it had been endorsed by heaven even before Peter and Paul were born.

They have already defined faith for us. Faith is substantiating what we hope for and making it real. If I hope for someone to get well, faith is what makes it happen.

Listen to Peter: Acts 3,

12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

All christian faith is in God or his word for they are one. Jesus (the word) had told them earlier on that when he ascends if they demanded anything in his name, he will see to it that it is done. Now he has ascended and they know it so they acted on his word (which is the definition of faith) and they used his name and the man got a miracle. I will put a period here.

May be all I am saying just wouldn't resonate in your mind, for reasons best known to you. A typical example is Elijah. Elijah was annointed of God but he did not have absolute power hence why he ran away from Jezebel.

These apostles never had absolute power to be used as they deemed fit. They were constantly used by the Holy Spirit all through penteost to authenticate the message of Christ

This is a diversion. How does this say anything about an era? Has Jesus name lost it's power?

When did Jesus tell them they will all be killed the way they got killed?

The emboldened is dressing probably aimed at digressing the discourse. I said "Jesus told them they would be killed for the gospel". How they were going to be killed adds nothing to his prophecy.

It is a principle in the bible because of man's unbelief. Every time a message was to be revealed by God, a sign back such message up. Moses was enabled to perform miracles to authenticate his ministry before Pharaoh. Elijah was given miracles to authenticate his ministry before Ahab. The apostles were given miracles by the Holy Spirit to authenticate their ministry before Israel. The sign has never been the message in itself all through scriptures.

Did Moses' miracles end? Did the miracles wrought by Elijah end? Where did Jesus say the "signs" to the disciples will end? I will need 2 scriptures to corroborate this.

God definitely has the power to bless anyone with riches

GOOD. So the ability and willingness remains in tact.

christemmbassey:
@ the bolded, so if I do not give money to a pastor, I can not benefit all ur mentioned blessings?

I never said so.

pls can I understand more with reference to 2Peter 1:2-3, .. Grace and peace be multiplied to you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,
3. According as His Divine power HATH GIVEN TO USALL THINGS that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledgeof him who hath call us to glory and virtue.

There is a disparity between Grace being multiplied and ALL grace accruing to someone. 2 Corinthians 9 referred to the latter. Also 2 Peter said he has given us all things that pertain to life. . .through the knowledge of Jesus and that is true. But 2 Corinthians 9 said out of the all things that pertain to life which for e.g, Grace is. God will now give you the full measure of the grace and this is by giving.

Question: do we give to get blessed or we give bc we are blessed?

Use rope, tie goat. Use goat, tie rope. All na the same: so that the goat no go run comot. If you give you will be blessed and when you are blessed you would give.

Finally, the letter of Paul in 2Cor9 is never a priscribtion for sowing of money, it makes God a trader and money doubler, which he is not. Bless you.

God is definitely not a money doubler or a trader, but if anyone sows they will reap. Regardless of what they sow and the bible says it is the same God that gives one the seed to sow that will provide the harvest as well. Bless you too.

Candour:
@the bolded, if only the pastors who shout the lie that a man can't be prosperous without sowing into the kingdom (their ministries are of course the best way to do this) really believe this. God pours blessings on all mankind, not just Christians. See what Christ said below

Matthew 5:45 KJV
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Any madman not afraid to pull the trigger of a gun and shed blood can be a billionaire (eg Tompolo, Ateke and Asari), it doesn't mean anything. God sends rain both on the just and the unjust. God allowed them. Any tailor (Alakija) with the right connections (maryam Babangida) can become an oil well owner and a billionaire, God gave the chance. Bill Gates or Warren Buffet or Mark Zuckerberg wouldnt be where they are today if God didn't allow them the chance. This is the truth no matter how much they deny his existence. This is why I'll always stand firm on the truth that money or lack of it proves and means nothing, absolutely nothing at all with respect to a man's spiritual standing. Christ said a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things he possesses.

If its mammon, the world will always beat the Christian in its acquisition. No one needs Christ to make money despite the lies we hear from some mog regularly. What is impossible to get without Christ is salvation from sin leading to eternal life and that is what should stand Alakija out, not her billions whether they are tainted or not.

If you're blessed with health or wealth, thank God for you. The satanist next door probably has them too maybe in bigger proportions than you. What is important is the imputed righteousness of Christ open only to those who come to Christ. This is the only thing that distinguishes a Christian from the world.

I agree with most if not all you have said above. What I was trying to say to my brother is that righteousness and salvation from sin or even having a sound mind isn't ONLY what we inherited from God through Christ's death. God's ability or desire to help his children get wealth and health has not ceased as a result, if anything it persists and has even increased. What will be extreme is for people to say that Christ does not give us wealth and so we have to get it on our own. Another extreme will be that we can ONLY get it through Christ. The truth remains that for anyone to be considered truly rich in God's eyes it will have to be by God's help and in service to God. It is the same with health, security, soundness of mind etc. Someone can say as long as I have my security guards in check I am safe- I don't need security from Christ (and in the physical he might appear safe)

Psalm 127 King James Version (KJV)
1 Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.

This verse for e.g does not say that the men won't build the house or that the watchmen won't watch it, just that they would do it in vain. In other words, at the end of the day, it would amount to nothing in God's eyes.

2 Corinthians 9:10 KJV

Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness

christemmbassey:
thank you sir, pls explain in context as to whether it is a doctrine. Remain blessf.

Paul was admonishing his members to remember the gift of money that they promised to give to him so he could continue his ministry work part of which was giving to other poor churches. So he explained to them the necessity of giving as one desires but not grudgingly and under duress. He reminded them that one would receive a harvest for the seed sown based on how liberal or withdrawn was when they gave. His actual words were 'if you give little you will receive little. And if you give large you will receive large'. Then he explained the Harvest they were to expect which is:

1. ALL Grace will abound towards them
2. The unmerited favor will make them be very good at anything and everything they do.
3. They will always have enough to help others and themselves.
4. Their righteousness will remain forever.

The verse above I quoted is the clincher. Paul said God who gives people the 'seed' (raw material) to sow will also give them the bread to eat (harvest) even as he MULTIPLIES their seed sown and increases the FRUITS of their righteousness. Meaning Endurance, patience, Joy, love, longsuffering, faith, gentleness, temperance etc which are the FRUITS of the recreated human spirit (that was created in righteousness) will become more pronounced in such a person's life as well.

Compendre?

shdemidemi:
1) the primary purpose of Christianity is to herald the message of God. Suffering happens to be part of that deal.
2 Tim 4
2 Preach the message, [size=22pt]be ready whether it is convenient or not[/size], reprove, rebuke, exhort with complete patience and instruction. 3 For there will be a time when people will not tolerate sound teaching. Instead, following their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves, because they have an insatiable curiosity to hear new things. 4 And they will turn away from hearing the truth, but on the other hand they will turn aside to myths. 5 You, however, be self-controlled in all things, [size=22pt]endure hardship[/size], do an evangelist’s work, fulfill your ministry.

The commission in Mark 16 was given to authenticate and it served as a link to what is to become the church: body of Christ built on GRACE

2) God is a God of providence. He is the God who knows the end right from the beginning. It was never by Paul's power nor that of Peter nor their ability that they wrought the miracles, It was God working through them.

Like I said earlier, if it were to be by their power, no one would have killed them the way they died.

3) God stopped raining Manna from heaven the day He chose a new people for Himself. There is a difference between those He led by pillar of fire and wall of cloud and those He is leading by His Spirit today.

The Israelites were God's earthly people, they did not have any spiritual promise. It was not about hell or heaven in the Old Testament, it was all about instant death and destruction or God's wealth and mercy.

For us(the church) today, we have a spiritual promise through Jesus.

4) Mrs Alakija is the one wearing the shoes, only her can tell where it hurts. Our sufferings are relative my brother.

I don't think there are words to describe what heaven will be like.

I don't see how this responds to my questions. You said Christ's promise is spiritual ONLY and I disagree. I have shown verses that say they are Physical as well. What you should do is show me verses saying the blessings are ONLY spiritual.

Secondly, you said what we are waiting for in Heaven is a life of wealth and health there. And I asked you wjy we need them in heaven seeing that there would be no traders in there neither will there be mosquitoes to cause Malaria etc and you didn't answer me.

Thirdly, if you want the scriptures I can show them to you. The Apostles said they healed by the name of Jesus and by their faith in the name. You said it was the era, yet you cannot prove it from scripture. Your statement that if they had power they would not have died is flawed because Jesus told them they would be killed for the gospel. The same Jesus told them that they would have POWER as soon as the Holy Spirit comes upon them. Logic entails that as long as the Holy Spirit remains in them the power would be there, agree?

So where is your cessation theory coming from?

As per Mrs Folorunso Alakija, I mentioned her to show you that I can play that game as well. You guys like to call Billionaire Atheists to argue that if it were God who gives wealth, they wouldn't be rich (I don't know whoever said so). All we have said is that God has the power to make anyone rich and if God blesses you, you will be rich and in health etc.

Mrs Folorunso like any other christian is waiting for the redemption of her body- the Immortal body. That's what we are waiting for. She's not waiting for health and wealth in heaven where she would not need it.

Shdemidemi,

1. If there was a different assignment between suffering and then the concomitant signs of the believers in Mark 16 please show it to me. I have never seen it in all my years of studying the bible. Thanks.

2. Jesus told his disciples that they would be killed dor the gospel. That much is explicitly stated. What he NEVER told them was that they were to latch unto anything that God was doing at any time. That is weak and unscriptural. Peter and John said the reason the Lame man was made to walk was because of the name of Jesus and their faith in that name- nothing else!

Has the name lost it's power?

3. I asked a question, when did God relinquish the power to give people wealth? We know about diligence and Hard work. The most hard working people I know are Hawkers- they are all broke.

4. What do I need wealth for in Heaven? Where in scripture did God tell us we would get eternal life in the future? What do I need health for in Heaven? And what in that verse you posted suggests or alludes to Paul referring to health or wealth in heaven there? Mrs Folorunso Alakija is a christian billionaire and she's healthy. So what again is she waiting for?

Just thought to throw this into the mix.

1 Corinthians 13:1 KJV

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Paul said there is a Tongues of men and then there is one of Angels- heavenly beings, God. And he said he spoke both.

Tongues of men can be understood by men but I wager that Tongues of Angels can't be interpreted by men.

Yes Paul called it TONGUES of Angels not Tongue or what not.

2 Corinthians 9:6 KJV

But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

christemmbassey:
can we have d scriptures, pls?

What I don't understand is, we are to suffer with the Apostles but their tongues, abilities to heal people and cast out demons etc vanished with them. Is it fair? Is it rightfully dividing the scriptures?

What about God's power to make someone wealthy, did he relinquish that power in the OT?

What about God's ability and willingness to keep us healthy. Did he cancel such an agreement after Jesus died? Is it fair? I thought the NT was better and founded on better promises.

^^^

shdemidemi:
Bible says they heard them speak their languages. Mba says they miraculously understood the gibberish the 120 were uttering.

7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs

120 People from Galilee are talking loudly and simultaneously. How would anyone be able to tell what each man was saying even if for e.g, they all spoke in one language? Again, Parthians heard the 120 men in their own language. Medes heard the 120 men in their own language. Elamites, Judeans, Asians, Egyptians all heard the same words being spoken in THEIR own language.

You tell me how that is possible.

I wonder why the multitude needed to hear them praise their God, if it isn't to testify the work of God and ultimately to bring them to the knowledge of God.

Sorry to say, but all the men that stood around there knew God for they were Jews and Jew proselytes. There was NOTHING those men would have said in other tongues that was strange to them. The only thing that was strange apart from the miracle of each country understanding what the men were saying IN THEIR OWN language was what Peter said next about Jesus. If per adventure, the words the 120 were saying was "we bless Jesus" "We worship Jesus" the Jews would not have reported it as "they were praising God" because as far as they were concerned Jesus was not God. The witness Jesus wanted the disciples to be is the witness of his DEITY i.e that he is GOD. That is what Peter preached subsequently.

Unknown tongue cannot be put to words, it is irrelevant to our christian walk but tongues were understandable.

How can you say this?

Jude 1:20
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

There are some situations one can face where your natural instincts will tell you there is no way out. When you pray in tongues, the bible says you build up yourself ON YOUR MOST HOLY FAITH. In other words, praying in tongues can raise your faith to levels higher than the highest your faith has ever been before.

Ever wondered why Paul says when I pray in tongues my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful? Because many times our minds work against the leading of the spirit. I could give you an example: You could be in the office and then God shows you a vision that say someone you love is about to get into trouble or something of the sort. I assure you, you would immediately abandon that vision and start heading to the venue where you think the trouble might happen. Now when we worry, we are walking out of the will of God and God knows it. So he has given us a language that when we speak it, we are speaking forth mysteries that are according to his will yet we don't understand it ourselves and as such cannot act contrary to it or away from it. So I could be praying in tongues now and it is translated to mean that someone I know is about to get involved in an accident. You see, I don't know what I am saying, but God knows, so he rescues the person I am praying for and all looks normal. Yet if I am always praying in a known language I may not be aware of what is happening on the go and then wonder why some strange things happened to those I loved.

Praying in tongues is the better type of prayer.

vooks:
Are there some levels you believe Paul and his contemporaries never reached but you or somebody you know is sailing in?

You don't have to taste everything to believe. You don't have to have all the gifts to believe in them

I'd love to know example(s) of somebody who KNOWS that Jesus wants wealth,health and longevity for them. We readily associate Hagin with Faith. Let's put a name to this man of faith

Cheers

Jesus himself for he is the template.

We love all the MOG in the bible even though they like us are not infallible. So my understanding of God's word should not be bordering on how Epaphroditus or Timothy responded to the same word. That's why I told you that Demas had a disagreement with Paul because he didn't want to 'Die daily' like Paul. So when push came to shove he ran away for dear life even though he may have remained a christian where he was. He just didn't have the same convictions with Paul.

Paul was not infallible himself (and I love him so this is not to disparage him). Paul had an obsession for his people- the Jews. So even in the face of all the prophecies from the Holy Spirit through other Christians and even the inner witness to himself, he still went to Jerusalem even after the Spirit had told him not to. It was by so doing that he got himself killed in Rome but then again that itinerary he made enabled us to have the book of Romans.

The point is that there was an awareness, a consciousness if you please, that Paul had that made him so successful while on earth. I like to call it a Christ Consciousness. For e.g, he said "we are EIDO (Conscious or aware) that all things work together for our good" but he said this in relation to his persecutions. When he said "if the spirit of him, that raised up Jesus from the dead, dwells in you. He that raised up Jesus will also VITALIZE your MORTAL BODY" he was conscious of the Holy Spirit's ability to keep us healthy in our Corruptible flesh.

That's all I need to know to believe that God wants me healthy and thank God there are many more scriptures saying so. Whether Timothy believed this message or not adds nothing or takes nothing away from it. GOD WANTS US IN PERFECT HEALTH. God said it, I believe it. . .and that settles it.

The KJV was the 13th translation. It is very close to the original manuscripts but it is not infallible.

1. God opened the understanding of the crowd of Jews and Jew proselytes to the tongues that the 120 spoke. That was the second of the two big miracles he performed that day. The first being that a large crowd could hear what 120 men and women were saying simultaneously. You and I know that is not possible.

2. The crowd containing different people from different countries and languages all stood amazed saying how strange it was that they could understand what the 120 people were saying regardless of language barriers. And they heard them praising God not testifying or witnessing per se.

3. The witnessing that God told them to do was what Peter eventually did by standing on a 'podium' and preaching to the large crowd such that 3000 people gave their hearts to the lord.

4. Unknown tongues or tongue are one and the same.

5. Casting out demons is very much for the christian to do. We are commissioned to cast out demons from anyone that has them.

vooks:
I never said Jesus requires my permission to take me home, you did and you shouldn't be ashamed of it. And if you are, swallow your pride and withdraw your statement.
The creation GROANS in eagerness waiting the redemption of the children of God, it was subjected to frustration. That was a consequence of sin that is yet to be realized despite Jesus conquering sin and paying the penalty. Try hard as you may, you are housed in corruptible flesh in a fallen world. In the fullness of time, this will be no more. Before then, you can only do as much

Peter and John were both disciples but Peter couldn't ask Jesus some questions directly. Instead he told John to ask Jesus for him. What do you think was responsible for that?

Later Jesus told Peter the way he would leave this world, but he said nothing to John and when Peter queried Jesus told him it is not his business. What do you think was responsible for that?

Abraham had called God Jevohah but when God spoke to Moses he said Abraham didn't know him as Jehovah what was responsible for that?

Peter told Jesus that he was the son of God and Jesus praised him for that. Thomas Didymus called Jesus GOD and Jesus didn't say "Thomas you are going too far. I am only the son" what was responsible for that?

There are levels in God that you would never grow to if you cherrypick his words and tell him which you prefer to believe. Jesus said "if it were not so, I would have told you". Everything he said was true as he is not a liar and cannot even lie. The day that thought settles in your heart you would be re-awakened to the fatherhood of God and some of your unbelief will dissipate.

I was happy to see that you not only believe in tongues but that you also partook of such a wonderful gift. This means that from this level to the next one for you is not far. The level where you know (eido) that God wants you in perfect health, wealth, state of mind, shalom, security etc. That knowledge will not be revealed as some vision. It will dawn on you.

Cheers.