₦airaland Forum

shdemidemi:
My friend, you asked for a verse to back what I said about the Spirit's role as an advocate/intercessor. I gave you a verse that the Holy Spirit is not alone in this, The Son also act as an advocate for believers with God. I expected you to admit they both work as advocates for believers at least.

Hope you remember the thread where I mentioned 7 of the Holy Spirit's role in the life of the believer. I am asking again so you would know that I may not learn anything new on his roles, as I know all of them like the back of my palm. Now you said the verse in 1John was similar to that in Romans 8:26 and I said they are not because I knew where you were heading to. You tried to insinuate that the Holy Spirit is acting on his own in doing the intercession like Jesus is but that is not what the scriptures said. In 1 John, the bible said Jesus is advocating for the WHOLE world WITH God but in Romans 8 the bible says the Holy Spirit is in BELIEVERS ALONE advocating for us TO GOD. Hope you can spot the very clear disparities.

As for the argument of Jesus is with God, I said the Holy Spirit is in us just like God is in us and the son is in us. We have got these three persons working constantly on our behalf. These three constantly take counsel within the godhead, we don't need to know how these spirit beings go about these things in their realm. All we can do is believe because the book say so.

Let me rattle your theology again: Jesus and the Father are not in the Christian, they are SEATED in Heaven. The ONLY person scripture told us will be in us is the HOLY SPIRIT. Part of his roles is to make the presence of the son and father to be real to us. He is the one who takes from their presence and situates it in the spirit of believers. When people learn to understand the role of the Holy spirit and his person, some of these confusions would be put to rest. A little hint would be when Jesus said ". . .I go to my father. . ." and then later he said "My father in me, he doeth the works". Certainly, Jesus cannot be ascending to his father in him. The one whom he described as the father in him is the HOLY SPIRIT- the one who proceeds from the father.

The Holy Spirit intercedes on our behalf and the Son intercedes on our behalf to the Father, that is all tat matter. Why you think the Holy Spirit needs me to act uncanny or unearthly for God to pray is beyond me

Alas the confusion. The son is not interceding to God, God is in the son. The presence of the son is the proof of intercession for the WHOLE OF MANKIND. But the Holy spirit intercedes for the church through the church. He does not stand on his own to do so. It is an insult to his person to suggest that he is working without us- that would mean he is doing a terrible job. The reason for many of the things going on in the church today is because of people's neglect of the person of the Holy Spirit.


Acts 4:29-31Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

29 `And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings, and grant to Thy servants with all freedom to speak Thy word,
30 in the stretching forth of Thy hand, for healing, and signs, and wonders, to come to pass through the name of Thy holy child Jesus.'
31 And they having prayed, the place was shaken in which they were gathered together, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and were speaking the word of God with freedom,

The disciples prayed to God to stretch his OWN hands to heal, show signs and perform wonders. The bible says suddenly they were filled with the HOLY SPIRIT. So how did he [the holy spirit] perform the miracles? On his own? Let us see the scriptures:

Acts 5:12Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
12 And through the hands of the apostles came many signs and wonders among the people, and they were with one accord all in the porch of Solomon;

The Holy spirit does not act on his own. He uses believers to act. That's why he came to dwell in us to amongst other things, help us. Please take your time to study properly and know him.

shdemidemi:
You tend to think of yourself more highly than you ought to. [s]One will almost think Mba gives relevance to the body of Christ and not the other way round. Don't be overtly wise in your conceit my friend, you are a learner of the Word, regardless of the depth of God's knowledge you think you have acquired, He reveals Himself in deeper dimensions to every man which makes it impossible to exhaust God's word[/s].

No I don't think of myself more highly than I ought to. It is not also my fault if anyone does not have the same understanding of the word of God that I do.

he word used in greek is 'sunantilambano' meaning 'to take a share in, help in bearing, to help in general'. Where did you get your joint-help rendition from?

Don't be desperate to win an argument, it adds nothing to you or the Church. This is what that part of scripture says-

Rom 8a
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities- 'helpeth' here does not mean a joint-help like you tried to make it.

'infirmity' here means our inability to produce results.

You know what happened the last time you claimed I didn't translate a word well. Let me go slower again.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/8-26.htm

http://biblehub.com/greek/sunantilambanetai_4878.htm

http://biblehub.com/thayers/4878.htm

Hope these links are clear enough? Now please study properly.

vooks:
Call them Gifts or Workings, they are restricted to what scriptures say.
tongues of fire happened once. Other instances they are not there so we don't look forward to them. Mighty rushing wind twice. But in Cornelius none of that happened so again this is not a must.

Scriptures have enough diversity of manifestation of the Spirit son! Anything outside this is not of the Holy Spirit

Off point again without answering my own questions. The workings of the spirit cannot be boxed. That's what I am trying to show to you and it is different from the gifts. Let me explain with an example: there is a gift of healing but the workings for that gift cannot be boxed. So the Holy Spirit can say "Vooks spit on him and his tumor will leave". You see, your spitting does not mean that any time you see a tumor you spit. That's where many got it wrong. The only reason you spat at the time was that the Author of healings told you to. Now you may not find any instance where anyone spat to elicit a miracle in the bible, yet it doesn't make the spitting not of God especially when Jesus was being glorified during the healing.

Hope you understand.

vooks:
This is a personal jab meant at blackmailing you to back off.
Spirit has weighed your heart and found it wanting thus saith mbaemeka.
I find it decidedly curious that he resorts to the very tactics Jehovah's witnesses use when they are cornered;
1. Do not cast your pearl to swine
2. You are not Spirit filled so you don't and can't know the truth. You are a worthless primate

IF Spirit takes you to levels not recorded, against what do you measure them? This is the error of subjective progressive revelation where scriptures are not sufficient or not everything there is to God. It is mbaemeka's spiritual experiences and discernment that counts, perish the Epistles. This is how Joseph Smith birthed LDS and Ellen White SDA

Mr neither here nor there. I haven't said the Spirit took me to any experience that is without the confines of the scripture but even if I did, please share yours with us so we can know and understand what shapes your own convictions and how they measure up with the giftings and workings of the Holy Spirit.

WinsomeX:
I still believe it is a matter of semantics. And your explanation above have not proven them different.



Do you know what doctrine means. It is simply teachings or a body of truth. God word is eternal, so also God's truth. Experiences vary. Why is this difficult for you to understand. Romans 8:26 is part of a biblical doctrine on prayers. What is egregarious about that?



And I respond with a resounding "Amen" too, at the bolded.

While we cannot box the Spirit in, the saints are called to "prove all things and to unto what is good" 1Thess 5. There is a standard to judge by and I have enumerated them to you.



1. Righteousness, peace and joy: Romans 14
2. Liberty in the Spirit, 2 Cor 3:17
3. God's Word, the bible.

Those two standards Spirit and Word are covered in my listing. Spirit covers 1 and 2; Word is 3. A man can approach me and begin to preach and possibly do miracles. I will thank God for him but I will observe other things. I will request audience of his private life. I will observe how he treats his wife, his subordinates, what people in his office say about him, the freedom he permits others to operate by, etc. What he said and the miracles he did can be a testimony to his knowledge of the Word but his private life is a testimony to his Spirit. That's why no matter how we talk here, only our private can determine who we really are. Thank God for anonymous nature of nl but some of us cannot afford an inch of our private life to be known bc it stinks. And others who have kept theirs private are wise bc so msny people are so demented in their thinking that they very quickly leave issues being discussed to attack other people's private lifes which they innocently shared, possibly to butress a point.

My poin is that all three things I listed remains the yardstick to prove truth or error. You can call them Spirit and Word or the three I listed.



That's true. This same Spirit helps us to know error too. He is a discerning Spirit like you said.



That's right.



Just did. Prove me wrong.



I really was going to come all out on you on the bolded but I just thought otherwise. It's not worth it. Especially when you are not even sure of what you clsim you heard from the "Spirit" and thus the need to put the safe caveat "even if he didn't..."

I would not be commenting on tongues on this thread as it will naturally derail it. I have a thread on mysticism where I discussed my position on tongues. You may go there and leave a comment and I will meet you.


That's true but...

While Jesus speak through his word and his Spirit, there is nothing he has ever said through his Spirit thst cannot be found on the pages of scriptures. Thus tge saints are called to prove all things and discard whatever is being said by spirits that are not of him.

If you say that I employed mere semantics to the scriptures, you are allowed to and if you do not understand it, you are also allowed to as understanding isn't granted to everyone. FYI Jesus used "semantics' to disprove lifelong traditions and beliefs of the Pharisees of his day.

Secondly, the word I used was Egregious and NOT Egregarious. Please do well to understand the meanings. I will let whatever you said about doctrines slide as even your allies didn't seem to agree with you but for the sake of posterity, there is NOTHING like Doctrine of groaning. Paul was given a subjective experience that some christians like himself would have encountered. He didn't teach groaning there as any eternal truth. Even Angry men groan and many of them are children of the devil.

As per righteousness, peace and the rest, please be humble enough to digress when you are WIDE OFF the mark. You are struggling with the scriptures to defend the indefensible simply because you would not own up and learn. There are ONLY two ways of measuring spiritual things and the bible said the spirit and the word. If a Buddhist monk does not sin does it make him righteous? If Dangote has peace with himself does it mean he is of the spirit?

Please quit the bull. Righteousness, peace and joy are part of the fruits of the recreated human spirit. They are not yardsticks and the bible never said so anywhere. So you can either put out a corroborating scripture or learn the lesson today- from a WOF related person.

As per what the Holy Spirit said to me I can stand by. My statement "even if he didn't say" was my way of saying I already had the witness to that fact from the word before the author of the word spoke and your position on a lot of things especially the person of the Holy Spirit is all the proof any one needs. You called the gift of tongues a mystic practice. That says it all.

Don't forget, you prove all things by the spirit and the word and not by what you feel or what you have experienced personally.

vooks:
Jesus healing with spittle and mud is one of the diverse means of carrying out healing. I believe His diversity points to His creativity as God, He is not limited.

But Diversity of Spiritual gifts are fully expounded in the epistles. And this with very intelligent reasons. If Holy Spirit omitted some practices but later revealed them to you, then there was no point of revealing ANY manifestation.

Recall Peter saw Cornelius manifesting the SAME gifts while he yet spake. Point is the Christian has a reference point, the recorded manifestation of the gifts and teachings of the same. Care to guess if Cornelius started barking like a dog or hissing like a snake whether Peter would have concluded that the Spirit had fallen on them?


Arrogance is when you remind everyone that you have spiritual gifts and therefore you win the argument. That's unnecessary. Who told you we don't? Only that our subjective experience is totally irrelevant to the discussion. It's no different from reminding us that you use Vaseline hand and body lotion

The Holy Spirit told Jesus to use spittle and he did. That's how the Holy Spirit is. Secondly, there is a gift of the Holy Spirit and there are WORKINGS of the Holy Spirit. You see how you keep exposing yourself? You didn't know this because you do not have the gift nor know the giver. Peter saw Cornelius display the gift of the Holy Spirit but did he see cloven tongues of fire? Did he see a mighty rush of wind? Those are WORKINGS and they cannot be boxed Mister.

Arrogance is that you do not know or understand something, but you delve into the debate with nothing to contribute and when you are challenged to prove to that you have something meaningful to contribute you start throwing invectives and conjectures.

If you have experienced any workings of the Holy Spirit please share them with us. Let us compare it with Paul's. That's just what I want to establish. And if you cannot, we can conclude that the only reason you disbelieve Kenneth Hagin's experience is because you have none for yourself. Period.

shdemidemi:
Don't even link it to tongue atall, because Paul was not advocating for tongue speaking in this church of corinth. If anything, he was making them see how irrelevant tongue is to the general growth of the body of Christ.

Absolute rubbish and should not be heard or found in the mouth of a christian.

shdemidemi:
Did the bible say that?
Do you know what 'spirit' is?
It is like air, it can be everywhere at the same time, no restrictions.
1 John 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
My little children can only be believers bro not just men.
The mistake you make is thinking we become epitome of spirituality simply because we become believers. It isn't so. A christian with the Holy Spirit in him can commit adultery, he can kill, he can lie (and that is not the fault of the Holy Spirit) if he does not get transformed by the renewing of his mind through God's word daily.
The Holy Spirit can't work effectively in a christian that is in total conformity with the world. Such Christian does not even know God let alone His will. If such christian says he is prompted by any spirit, it will definitely not be the Holy Spirit because the devil/the world has higher dominance over such believer.
P.S God and the devil transmit information through our mind. If you do not understand or study God's word enough, you might be mistaking the devils influence on you for God.

Unlike some people here, I do not just post anything I like and start retracting them based on how wrong others expose my posts to be. I am quoting verses that I have studied for a while by the agency of the Holy Spirit.

Now you are asking me if I know who the spirit or just a spirit is and I feel that question is misplaced because I know who the Holy Spirit is very very well. And I am not even trying to boast here.

That Romans 8:26 used a word "Helpeth". Go and study that word in greek. It means a joint help - a help that 2 people working together give to themselves. That's why I told you that the Holy Spirit does not pray on his own. He uses a believer to pray and no I didn't say he is restricted but in his operation he works THROUGH believers. That's what 'suntailambanonai' or so translated as helps means. Please study.

As per Jesus being an advocate to christians. Again understand context and stop shifting the goal. You first claimed that the verse was similar to the Romans 8:26 and I said no because in 1 John the bible said Jesus is an advocate WITH the father while Romans 8 and John 14 said the Holy Spirit is ADVOCATING in Us. That's the first aspect. Secondly, yes John said my little children but why was he writing to them? He was writing because baby christians have the same consciousness with sinners (or the world of men in general) I.e they are sin-conscious. So John told them Little children, even if you sin you have an advocate with the Father- Jesus Christ. Then he went on further to prove that the information was for babes and the world in the next verse where he says Jesus is the propitiation for not just your sins but also the sins of the world. And I explained why before even as I would do so again for the last time: God the father is now resident in Jesus who is seated on the throne in heaven. Jesus sitting on the throne with his blood is the proof that men can be saved. So if our hearts make us doubt that we are saved we know that as long as he is on the throne we need not fear, for he is proof that we are saved.

Jesus is not praying to the Father or begging him to forgive anyone. Jesus is there as proof that we are forgiven.

Conclusively, the Holy Spirit is IN a christian and as we fellowship with him he likewise helps us during prayer to pray according to God's will. If anyone hasn't experienced this already and they claim to be fellowshiping with the spirit, then they are lying and do not doing the truth.

1 Corinthians 14:14 AMP

For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit [by the Holy Spirit within me] prays, but my mind is unproductive [it bears no fruit and helps nobody].

Bidam:
Mba, we have argued on this issue with shdemidemi before, these guys will hold onto their perceived dogmas. Read the AMP of 1 cor 14:14 and connect that scripture with Rom 8:26 to get more clarity.

Very Apt.

shdemidemi:
He does not search the heart of men. The heart of man is desperately wicked, none can comprehend it. What else will God find in the heart of man?

The Spirit knows the heart of God and He prays according to God's will while He comforts us through our 'sufferings' and infirmities.

The spirit of God knows the heart of God because he is the Spirit of God. He also lives in us. Now he takes from God and shows to us while he takes from us and shows to God. That's why he is a helper, advocate, intercessor etc.

God searches all men's hearts to know their intents. That's what the bible says. A christian does not have a desperately wicked heart the bible also says that. But we have needs, weaknesses etc that we may not even be aware of. So God's spirit in us uses us to communicate those needs, weaknesses to God according to God's will.

trustman:
1. Is Jesus presently functioning as God in heaven? Is he making intercession for us?
2. The verse of Romans 8:26 is quite clear that it is the Spirit that does it:
"Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words."

The Holy Spirit does it THROUGH the believer. He is not on his own doing it. The Holy Spirit is in the world through the church - the body of Christ I.e each member.

Jesus is FUNCTIONING as GOD now in heaven. Yes he is making intercession for MEN and not christians. Besides, he is not saying "father please forgive them, please help them" as the verse seems to suggest. Jesus finished works of righteousness and his blood is what stands as the "intercessor" for mankind. This means that he is in HEAVEN as the reason why men can be saved. That's how is an advocate and an intercessor. Remember that God the father is now Tabernacled in Jesus.

But when we talk about the Holy Spirit's role as an intercessor. He functions in US as he only comes into us when we are saved. Now in us, when we pray he helps. When we want to take steps he also helps. He helps us from within.

shdemidemi:
He searches the heart of God. The Holy Spirit can do that but you and I can't hence the bible says we do not know how to pray like we ought to i.e we can't pray in line with God's will because we do not know His will. The only soft landing I have is the assurance that His plans towards me are of good.

It is all God here, nothing for you and I to do in the entire chapter 8 of Romans. It is an indicative chapter that shows us who we are in God.

The scripture said God that searches the hearts of men can read the mind of their spirits because the Holy Spirit within will be helping the believer to pray the will of God.

BabaGnoni:
I laughed in WoF, you know that WoF authoritative laugh, mimicking the authoritative and assertive post in "It is MEN that pray and not God"
- it rubs on one after a while, one just has succumb to laugh

mbaemeka , do you talk to yourself at all? Sometimes possibly, maybe when psyching yourself up. Hmm? No?

Although not that one is saying God psyches Himself up, but the fact is God does talk to Himself (i.e. prays to Himself)
The Godhead talk with Themselves.The Godhood talk among Themselves...

Sorry I am stealing time contributing at the moment

PS: Wasn't it you a few posts up there who referenced a scripture of God the Holy Spirit praying on behalf of others (i.e. to intercede, to make petition for)

SMH. Please read up. I said the Holy Spirit prays through the believer to God. He doesn't stand on his own and pray. He is God himself, if he wanted to do anything he would do it of his own volition but in the life of the believer he has a role to play as a HELPER amongst other things. In this role he uses the believer to carry out the role that he wants the believer to do that he (the believer) might be weak to do e.g Pray According to the will of God.

^^^

I didn't improvise I rightly divided the scriptures. The same translators called him "itself". They translate based on what they understand and sometimes they get it wrong hence the editions.

The verse you quoted is not similar. Jesus is in HEAVEN with the FATHER. That much is clear enough. But the Holy Spirit is on earth not roaming about but in the Spirits of Christians. There are a myriad of scriptures saying so. Secondly, each member of the Godhead have inherent power to do whatever they please even though they work in tandem. It will be amiss for the Holy Spirit to pray to the Father to effect anything. In fact, the Father doesn't effect the works- it is the Holy Spirit that does.

A proper understanding of their works will help you convince the JWs about the trinity. I saw you struggling because you were calling them equal members in one breath and then showing Jesus out to be God's boy in another. And that idea didn't sink to anyone because you failed to realize that Jesus was not functioning as God while he was on earth. Jesus was functioning as a man- he put his powers aside to do that.

I showed you the scriptures and they said nothing about righteousness in the context. You my friend, should read it again. God's spirit is resident in the spirit of the believer. That's where he functions from. He does not function on his own. Jesus said "even the spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive because they seeth him not neither knoweth him but you know him for he is with you and shall be IN YOU". [In Your Spirit]

BabaGnoni:
^^^
Go for some anger management and control please
One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.
- Luke 6:12 NIV
⁴¹And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw and he bowed his knees and he prayed.
⁴²And he said, "Father, if you are willing, let this cup pass from me; however not my will, but yours be done."
- Luke 22:41-42 Aramaic Bible in Plain English

No vex. I am angry at the statement not you.

Jesus was not functioning as God on earth- he was functioning as a man.

Luke 18:1 (KJ21)
18 And He spoke a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray and not to faint

It is MEN that pray and not God.

BabaGnoni:
Yes, God does pray. God will pray to God the Father.

Thrash. Please use one scripture to back this up. Just one.

shdemidemi:
What does the scripture say? Even if you can't comprehend it, you don't have to adapt what the passage says.
There's not much we can do about it because we're dealing with the invisible, in the realm of the Spirit.

lol @ even if I don't comprehend it. The scripture is as clear as crystal. Don't let the "S" and ''s" used by translators confuse you. Many of them were as confused as some of the posters on this thread for e.g, Spirit "Itself" as if he is a thing.

The father, the Spirit and the Son communicate even within the Godhead, this isn't unusual.

The HOLY SPIRIT is the SPIRIT of GOD. He does NOT pray on his own- he prays THROUGH a believer. Please show just ONE scripture that suggests that he prays on his own. Just one.

Romans 8
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The Spirit with the capital 's' is the Spirit of God, it is different from our spirit. The verse above makes that clear. They are both indwelling but not the same.

Quick bible study:

1 Corinthians 6:17Common English Bible (CEB)
17 The one who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with him.

The Holy Spirit is not standing side by side with the spirit of a christian- they are intermingled into one being.

To fully understand Romans 8:26 you have to read the whole train-of-thought in context so you can get the full gist.

27 And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God

Who is he that searches the Heart and why does he do so? Heart of whom?

Proverbs 20:2721st Century King James Version (KJ21)
27 The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of his being.

A clear translation says:

Proverbs 20:27New Living Translation (NLT)
27 The Lord’s light penetrates the human spirit,[a]
exposing every hidden motive.

God searches a man's spirit to see his intents, wishes, motives and for a christian who has the spirit of God within, the spirit of God causes the man's spirit (and as such the man- for man is a spirit) to make those unutterable groans that are translated in the realm of the spirit to be the will of God. That's why it is called a "helping US in OUR weakness". I can show you another translation for Romans 8:26-28 AMP

27 And He Who searches the hearts of men knows what is in the mind of the [Holy] Spirit [what His intent is], because the Spirit intercedes and pleads [before God] in behalf of the saints according to and in harmony with God’s will.

As you can see, the Holy spirit is not on his own doing the praying. He is in the spirit of Christians helping us to pray through those groans that ONLY God can interpret.

shdemidemi:
Yes I did. Please check to see if the passage says what you insinuated.
Rom 8:26b
but [size=16pt]the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings[/size] which cannot be uttered.

How does he make the intercession for us? Is he outside us? Is he not one with our spirit? Does God pray? Who will God pray to?

shdemidemi:
Did you make the emphasised bit up on your own? Can't find it in the verse.

I quoted a scripture. Did you look it up?

vooks:
Mbaemeka,
If Paul had not penned Romans we would have called groanings extra-biblical and this rightfully so because nowhere is it taught. But note when we talk of extra biblical manifestation we are talking of either disciples never manifesting &/ a teaching of the same missing. We have no record of interpretation of tongues yet we know it is of Spirit because Holy Spirit taught us.

Paul mentioned interpretation of tongues in the book of Corinthians and that is how you knew about it. Period. Now tell us where Jesus got the idea that he could use spittle to heal a blind man and if you come up with any rubbish on sovereignty I would rest my case with you.

Did you just edit your post? Thank God Winsomex had commented on it. Did you shoot yourself in the hoof?

You and your delusions. That's why I eschew discussing with you.

I love the way you arrogantly flash your works, using the name of Jesus and now manifesting gifts to drive a point home. This is usually when you run out of ideas, you are essentially saying, 'hey, am too spiritual and I know better even if I lose this debate' Men test doctrine by scriptures NOT experiences. Hoping you know experiences birthed Mormons. And this is mysticism BTW, experiences which can't be measured by Spirit-Inspired scriptures because Holy Spirit forgot to record or manifest them in the Primitive/early church

I am quoting scriptures, stating how my experiences match up to the very scriptures and I am accused of "arrogantly flashing my works". As if it is my fault that you do not know the scriptures nor the author of the scriptures or can you prove me wrong by not evading my question again; do you speak in tongues or do you have any of the workings of the spirit as explained by Paul in Corinthians?

WinsomeX:
"By" or "in" - are we not dealing with semantics here. Common, you can do better this.

No we are not dealing with semantics. Groaned "in" the spirit means he didn't utter anything out but what Paul referred to in Romans 8:26 is how the Holy Spirit in a man causes him to groan outwardly in prayer. They differ and If you had experienced it you would have known.

I am not sure that scripture was a testimony. Paul was teaching doctrine there. I believe there is a difference there. A testimony is borne from an experience that change; doctrines are eternal truth.

Paul was not teaching a doctrine there. Infact this was the only time in scripture that he expressed the Spirit's role as an intercessor through unutterable groans. Besides, there is no doctrine of 'Groaning' and to attach the word "eternal" to the "truth" is egregious if not distorted.

I, however, will never be a partaker of this in my lifetime. I hope those reading have found sufficient scriptures from you to prove laughing in the Spirit. I hope they can see your effort to make scripture say what it is not saying. I hope they have ability to discern truth.

I say a big AMEN to the emboldened. I have not made the scriptures to say anything like the "doctrine of groaning". I however have shown that there is no hard and fast rule to decide how the Holy spirit will choose to manifest himself and those who try to box him only do so because they do not know him.

I gave you some biblical yardstick to measure the things of the Spirit:
1. Righteousness, peace and joy.
2. Liberty.
3. Scriptures.
When Jesus came, the Pharisee who knew scriptures well but where devoid of 2 and 3 could not recognize him.

I judge WoF by these three, they may claim 1 and 2, but they fail woefully in 3. That's the way to know truth from error.

There is nothing in the scriptures that even suggests that the workings of the spirit are measured by 1 & 2 especially when both items are subjective to the recipients and not the onlookers. And really anyone who has close fellowship with the Holy spirit would have known that. The bible gives us 2 benchmarks for measuring spiritual things: The Spirit and the Word (scriptures), period.

1 Corinthians 2: 10,11,12,13 (KJV)

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 . . .even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received. . . the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

It is the Holy spirit within that helps us to discern spiritual things. Natural men(lacking the spirit) or their wisdom and ways of reasoning will always see the things of the spirit as foolish but howbeit in the spirit they are mysteries.

Hebrews 4:1221st Century King James Version (KJ21)
12 For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The word of God is also a discerner of the intents and thoughts of the spirit.

As per whether WOF have the knowledge of the scriptures, this thread will tell. A Non-WOF just said there is a doctrine of "groaning" and now he has said liberty, righteousness, peace and joy are yardsticks for measuring spiritual things. We enjoin him to show us how he came about it.

John said many spirits have gone into the world. Which of them is behind laughing in the spirit? If I need manifestation I could easily go to Synagogue or Cele. They abound there. Fortunately, I don't need them. I am complete in Christ. I have fellowship with Jesus through his Spirit and I am content with this. My fellowsgip with Christ gives me discernment and I know enough to say that laughing in the Spirit is not of him.

If you know enough be kind enough to share some of those experiences you have enjoyed from your fellowship with him and if you cannot do so we would rightly conclude that you have none. I also have constant fellowship with the Holy spirit with many experiences to back my claim whether you believe it or not. He told me that you do not have any fellowship with him and even if he didn't the very words of the scripture prove that you do not. We can do a random check, do you speak in tongues?

This is not disputed. I only warn that beware of the spirit interpreting "truth" to you.

Jesus said my sheep know my voice and the voice of a stranger they would not listen to. Jesus speaks 2 ways- through his word and through his spirit. Constant fellowship with his spirit will make the words clear and audible enough.

vooks:
Can Holy Spirit manifest Himself differently from what is recorded in the scriptures?

He never told us that his manifestations are ONLY what would be recorded in scripture.

WinsomeX:
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Groaning in the Spirit is not laughing in the Spirit. Jesus was also said to have groaned in the Spirit, no one can claim the Master was laughing at that occasion of Lazarus' grave.
John 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,
You will need to go outside the bible to find occasions where people where laughing in the Spirit. Truth is that the biblical tongues are articulate, as you said, in the sense that they could be interpreted. We may need to find an interpreter for Hagin's laughter, if you must compare laughter to tongues.
While we can't box God's Spirit and his manifestations, we open up ourselves to deception when we cannot find a yardstick to measure a so called workings of God. Scripture says where the Spirit of God operates, there is liberty. The kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy. Finally, the operations of Jesus and his apostles found their origin in the given scriptures of that time - the OT. Thus we have the yardstick to measure God's workings. That something is new, spectacular or even spiritual does not make it God's. We must measure these things by God's standard as aforementioned.
So you may have to make some more efforts to prove that laughter in the Spirit is scriptural.
The challenge you and others have is that you cannot see the likes of Hagin or Chris Oyakhilome as fallible. Therefore anything they do is correct. You use them as standard of truth, rather than allowing truth to prove them right or wrong. So if they divorce their wives, they are men of God, they must be right doing it. If they laugh in the Spirit, the same thing.

The bible says Jesus groaned 'in the spirit' but Paul spoke about a groaning 'BY the spirit'. These two instances differ. That notwithstanding if Paul (by the Holy Spirit) had not recorded his testimony in Romans 8:26 we would have still assumed that groaning was extra biblical because we didn't see any other disciples do so. The fact again says that the invisible God laughs in Heaven even as he groaned while on earth. They are not extra biblical concepts as it were. Moreso, Paul never spoke about interpreting the groans. He simply said that such groans were initiated by God's spirit at times when we may not know how to pray as we ought to, so in the same line God's spirit could initiate the same laughter through us with a particular motive in mind.

Just like the example I gave Jesus did different things to elicit different miracles at different times and all still boils down to the workings and operations of the spirit. He made Elisha lay untop the widows son before raising him back to life but he made Peter to speak the word to Dorcas and she was raised. I cannot therefore say that the ONLY two ways he makes people come back to life is by making one lay untop of them or to simply speak the word. What if he says Laugh infront of person, will he stop being the spirit of God because of so?

Speaking of God's standard, how do me measure it? Hope you know that Jesus, the word is God's standard. So you may try to explain what standard Jesus used when he used mud to heal blindness and when he just spoke the word. You would find out that Jesus, like he said, only did what the Father in him (the Holy Spirit) told him to do.

The challenge you and some others have is that you do not have true fellowship with the initiator of the manifestations nor do you drink daily from that fresh anointing that he is known to constantly provide. When you do, you would find yourself experiencing some of these manifestations that some of these men experience(d) and as such you would have no qualms in recognising the works of the spirit more so, when the same Spirit lives in you and is ever ready to tell you which workings are his and which are not.

Jesus said God is looking for true worshipers who would worship him in spirit (first) and in truth (the word). No christian can be misled when these 2 conditions are met and Jesus never says something if it is not true.

WinsomeX:
I agree with everything you have written. I do not deny the person of the Holy Spirit. Indeed the Holy Spirit is Christ in us. If it is "in this sense" you see the Spirit REPLACING Christ in us, I cannot argue further. But note that the emphasis is on the name Christ: "Christ in us..." There is a reason for it. It is Christ the Holy Spirit glorifies.
There is however a danger with a devotion to spirits, it opens up the believers to all kinds of spirit that have gone into the world and that's why there must be that distinction btw the Spirit of Christ and other spirits. Same way as the NT has distinguished God as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ from other gods. The name Christ is the distinction and he remains the object of our worship. If our devotion is made to a Spirit, it must be in Jesus name, anything else is cultic.
This also does not justify extra biblical occurrences like laughing in the Spirit.

Very well.

Jesus said the Holy Spirit will be sent in his name (John 14:26) but the name of a Person isn't only in the pronunciation but also in the demonstration of the character behind the name and the authority behind the character. So even if I don't 'say' in Jesus name to do some things, one can still tell that he is behind what I am doing as long as it is done in his words or deeds (Colossians 3:17).

For example, the OT already talked about speaking in tongues as a manifestation of the Spirit of God. But on the day of Pentecost, many Jews and proselyte Jews saw that prophecy being manifested yet they critisized it because it did not happen to who they expected it to happen to and when they expected it as well.

In Romans 8:26 Paul spoke about another way that the Holy Spirit could manifest himself through a believer. On first read, you would think he was referring to speaking in tongues there but that could not be as Tongues in itself is a heavenly language but in ARTICULATE speech. In other words, proper words are spoken but they are of a heavenly origin. But in this verse I cited Paul said the Holy Spirit could also manifest himself through "unutterable" groans. This means the groans will not be in pronounceable words or in articulate speech but they would still have a heavenly meaning (in this case the will of God).

I am sure you have seen someone groan. Now imagine looking at him praying and groaning making funny sounds would you not think some thing is wrong? Well in the physical standpoint it could appear that way but Paul said in the spiritrealm such a person will be praying the will of God. Now compare groaning to laughing. We can see that they have the same denominators in the sense that they are both 'unutterable' or 'inarticulate'. So we would be amiss to see someone who might be praying that way and assume that he is doing so under any unction but the Holy Spirit's. That's why Jesus spoke and blindness left yet at another time he spat into the ground and used the mud to heal blindness. Who instructed him to do it either ways? The Holy Spirit. Do we have a fixed way for determining how he would manifest himself? The answer is simply no.

John 16:7 KJV

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient and I you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 16:28 KJV

I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Jesus was leaving the world. He was about to complete his mission by dying on the cross so he began to prepare the minds of his disciples by telling them exactly so. Naturally, they felt sad. The Teacher, helper, cormforter, advocate etc. Was going to leave them after all he had taught and shown them. They felt abandoned like Orphans. So he shares a secret with them that he is sure will make up for his absence: that when he leaves the father would send 'Allos Parakletos' meaning another one of the same kind. The only difference being that he would be a spirit that will live in the disciples butwwould be unseen or unknown to natural men.

Jesus goes further by saying it is to their advantage that he leaves the scene. For if he doesn't, that Spirit of truth will not come. The Spirit of truth is whom Jesus referred to as Allos Parakletos. He was to REPLACE Jesus in the lives of the disciples because he is EXACTLY like Jesus and Jesus was leaving the scene.

Jesus said he would testify of him and only take from him to show the world. Jesus said he would teach all truth (the same 'all' truths Jesus could not share with his disciples at the time). He was to glorify Jesus and make Jesus 'still present' in the disciples life even though Jesus would be in heaven. That's why Paul kept saying "if Christ be in you" "till Christ be formed in you" etc. Christ will only be present in the christians life by the agency of the Holy Spirit.

In 2 Corinthians 13:14, Paul shows us who we are to fellowship with. He says we are to know the Love of God and the Grace of the Lord Jesus but when he gets to the Holy Spirit, he tells us to have communion, fellowship, intimacy with him. Why? Because he is the one present now in the world and in the life of a christian. Not a single person can claim to know Jesus without fellowshiping with the Holy Spirit. That's why feel for those who neglect their devotions to him and in the same breath claim they know Jesus. It is not possible.

This is the reason there are some self styled christians that question the way this precious Holy Spirit of God chooses to manifest himself. They question it because they do not know the one who makes these manifestations possible- The Spirit of Christ himself and we are in his DISPENSATION.

nlMediator:
1. Go and check the meaning of the word "comforter" in the Greek. It's simply means somebody like Jesus that will be in His place among the believers.

2. So, I can assume you have the spiritual experiences that you ridicule? That would make you worse than a hypocrite. Therefore, I would assume that you simply do not have those experiences. Omniscience is not required for that. Simple deductive reasoning would do.

How someone can criticize the Holy Spirit in Kenneth Hagin for manifesting himself in a particular way but then believe that the 'one in him' is the original. As if the Holy Spirit in the USA is different from the one in Nigeria.

Nannymcphee,

I read your post and I agree with some things even as I disagree with some others. I don't believe we can curtail how much or how fast someone can get anything through faith from God. So I would be very careful about mixing everything when I am telling them about God so that they don't get shortchanged by the devil and then think that sovereignty played a part e.g Daniel's prayer etc., but I get you.

I love you too.

As for Lobeez, I didn't bother with the harangue I just zeroed in on the image you uploaded. God bless you for it!!!!

Now kindly tell us how anybody will see that image and think that the snake bit the tree because the Maltans (to you and yours) 'thought' Paul was bitten and the ONLY way they would have thought so, was if they saw the head and not the tail around Paul's hand.

nannymcphee:
While they might not be against it, much emphasis is placed on getting it NOW, the same way churches are not Aainst holy living & righteousness but much emphasis is placed on prosperity and you know what that has led to today, people are no longer heavenly conscious but earthly conscious, how best they can live the good life here



You didn't quite follow then, the issue wasn't that instant miracles/harvest wasn't possible rather it was an issue of the "instantness" being hinged on one's great faith !!

In order words, if you have great faith you can command your harvest to come now.

That's why I kicked against hezekiah's prayer as an example. Nothing there suggests that he got an instant reply from God because of his great faith but rather Gods mercy was at work there( I'm in no way saying his prayer had nothing to do with God changing his mind) but it was not his faith per say that moved God to add 15yrs INSTANTLY

Talking about instant harvest & "if thou shall say unto this mountain be that cast into the sea....." Why didn't Jesus command figs to appear on that tree that moment he needed them? After all he was hungry, this is the same Jesus that turned water into wine instantly!!!!

Maybe he didn't have "great faith" at that point!!!!

btw, Jesus said if you have faith as a muster seed(it has been established that the mustard seed is very small), one will say to the mountain

Gombs et al will have us believe that it is great faith that does the work & not the small muster seed size of faith that does the work

Just before you open ur mouth, I have the book "how to make your faith work" & I was in the meeting it was first taught:Charismatic Renewal Conference (this directed at Gombs)

You are going from neither here nor there. You once posited that there was nothing like an instant harvest and when you were shown that you brought up instances showing delays and generalized sweepingly by claiming it had to do with sovereignty. Of course, I showed you how untrue that was by showing God in the flesh praise someone's great faith as the reason he received an instant miracle while he secretly rebuked his disciples for having little faith when they could not get a result. He didn't tell them "oh, that case had to do with God's sovereignty" so please quit the bull.

If anyone is fixated on getting instant miracles they should be commended and not derided. That the scriptures related instant miracles to having great faith should not also be overlooked or swept aside. Speaking of having faith as a mustard seed and moving a mountain with it, doesn't it provoke you to grow your faith to that level? It should, because Jesus is telling all of us that our faith (as big as we think it is) isn't up to mustard seed size that would have sufficed to move mountains. Now Pastors who teach people to grow their faiths and expect instant miracles should be praised for trying to help people grow their faiths to the level that God expects and those who say otherwise should be worthy of double censure!

What you don't know about holy living and righteousness is that it is also a function of great faith. The bible says it is ONLY faith that can please God. That means, no matter what I do, be it crying, sowing, living holy etc if it is not mixed with faith it would not please God. It takes faith to be called names and yet turn to a blind eye. It takes faith to live above any type of sin. It takes faith to declare the word of God boldly even when your mind is saying contrary things. It takes faith to be healed and it takes faith to remain healed. Almost, strike, in fact every thing about the life of a christian is by faith and if you are not grounded in it like Paul, you would take the Demas route and abscond when the heat is on. What we should be asking you is your definition of faith.

You must be reading another bible to claim that Hezekiah didn't get an instant miracle. You must be bordering on the ridiculous to claim it was anything but faith that gave it to him. I told you before that when anyone receives an answer to a prayer from God it MUST have come by faith. Sovereignty only works where Hezekiah didn't ask God for a healing but God just gave it to him. If God was employing his sovereignty in that instance, then Hezekiah should have died as that was God's will for him. But God ALWAYS responds to faith so he obliged the man his answer even if it was contrary to his will for the man.

At the end of the day, God doesn't live in time and so it doesn't exist to him. Anyone who comes to God must be aware of this and also aware that God rewards those that seek him. If we ask God and give him a timeframe to respond because of "natural laws" then we are not walking by faith. But if we expect an instant miracle but it takes time then nothing is wrong (and I have never said anything was). But there are different levels of receiving and we should desire to grow to the highest- Jesus (even while he walked on earth). Jesus raised Jairus daughter shortly after she died. Many naysayers would have claimed she was in a coma. Jesus raised a widows son on his way to be buried and they would have concluded that maybe his spirit had returned. Then Jesus waited for Lazarus to die and be buried and then he raised the man who was already decomposed with no hope of the spirit returning (according to Pharisical beliefs) and this time the naysayers said within themselves "surely we cannot deny this miracle" thereby insinuating that they had always tried to deny or refute the previous one's.

I know you will ask me for Ebola and Bokoharam and even if I say anything you would conclude that I am a liar so I would recycle an old testimony I have. I prayed for someone with full-blown AIDS and I expected an instant miracle. The guy still died. (Don't tell me anything about sovereignty, sickness is of the devil and God came to destroy the works of the devil). Shortly after, I prayed for someone else that was bedridden and she got up INSTANTLY. It shocked even those around me.

I am still growing my faith, I never claimed to have attained all the heights there is to attain. I prayed for Dr Adedevoh while she was down with Ebola everyday till she was pronounced dead. It felt like my faith failed but that's not the excuse given. I didn't also use the cheapest escape route of 'sovereignty'. I told myself, "next time, I will get it right" and I will.

What have you done with your faith? How much has it achieved for you? How many lost souls have you seen repent? Will you rather be counted amongst those that tried or will you be with those who criticised and did nothing? Not everyone in God's house is an instrument of value. Some will get no rewards but their salvation will be intact- they are the social critics and co. Others will receive rewards for doing or at least trying to do. I am one of them, praise the lord !

nannymcphee:
And fastened on his hand - καθῆψεν kathēpsen. This word properly means to join oneself to; to touch; to adhere to. It might have been by coiling around his hand and arm, or by fastening its fangs in his hand. It is not [size=16pt]expressly affirmed that Paul was bitten by the viper[/size] yet it is evidently implied; and it is wholly incredible that a viper, [size=16pt]unless miraculously prevented[/size] should fasten himself to the hand without biting
just have an open mind, we know you have been taught that he was bitten, now the scenario is being presented in a new light, starting with the original Greek word(which doesn't suggest biting)
if you we're watching someone from afar, seeing a snake coiled around any part of his body, won't you assume he will be bitten, if yes( then your answer will account for the statement made by paul onlookers)

You are as close-minded as you accuse him of being and while his is better (because he is sticking to the word) you on the other hand are changing positions with each extra biblical idea that pops up.

The Book of Acts 28 from vs 3-4 says virtually everything that needs to be said and NlMediator and Gombs have done a very good job in showing it. To suggest that the scriptures didn't say Paul was bitten only shows how time has exposed what you truly believe about God or his power.

Vs 3 says a snake fastened itself on Paul's hand and that the Maltans saw it not that they assumed. Now we have quibbled over the greek word that was translated to mean Fasten but we have not checked what the word 'fasten' actually means in English. Most English dictionaries define 'fastening' as the act of attaching FIRMLY to something else as by PINNING or NAILING. It never defined fastening as wrapping, coiling etc. Yet you and the rest kept throwing about the word 'wrapping' even when the very scriptures NEVER mentioned anything related to wrapping. The word used was fasten and it means the snake attached itself to Paul as by pinning itself to him or nailing itself to him. This could have only be done by its fangs.

vs 4 then goes further to say that the Maltans SAW the snake hanging on or from Paul's hand. There is no way or even poetic licence that would grant a writer the liberty to express a snake wrapped around a man's hand as it hanging from or on his hand, Which means that gibberish about a snake wrapped around Paul's hand also falls flat in the face of reasoning. I have run a search across many dictionaries and there is NOTHING absolutely NOTHING that indicates that when something hangs on or from something it is wrapped around it- nothing! Virtually all the dictionaries I checked now said there must be a slope (downward slope), an inclination, something showing declivity etc. This means that (just like suicide victims or those executed by the gallows) the body must 'hang' or be free in the air with a downward inclign. If per adventure a man is wrapped around a tree branch by a rope one would not be permitted to claim that he hung on the tree. Better renderings for that will be that he was tied there or that he was wrapped there. But when you hear that someone hung on a tree, you know he must have dangled or occupied a position showing him in the air but tilted downwards.

Now the bible says the Maltans SAW the snake HANGING (they didn't assume) and that it FASTENED itself on Paul's hand. We can therefore rightly conclude that it used it's fangs to pin or nail itself to Paul's hand and that the Maltans saw it dangle right before he shook or brushed it off himself. This can be the ONLY reason why they concluded he was going to swell and die and also why they got shocked that he didn't. Moreso, This is why they retracted their words that he was a murderer faced by karma and called him a god.

As for those who claim that Vipers bite sharply and release immediately it is not ALWAYS the case. Sometimes, they could bite and hold on for long (if encountering a small prey). And this can be applied to Paul's case because the width of his hand or wrist (around which the snake bit him) is sizeable compared to a vipers regular prey. Even if that was not the case we have to take ONLY what the scriptures say which is: that they SAW the snake HANGING on Paul's hand.

Concerning the use of suffer or felt by different translations the word is better described as felt. Paul felt no harm. Which means the snake should have caused him harm but Paul did not FEEL it. That was the miracle. If we are to debate based on different translations then the argument is DOA because other translations used bite or that the snake latched itself on Paul's hand. Both words connote the same thing- fangs were used and as such immediate pain should have been felt but Paul felt nothing and by so doing, confirmed that Jesus promise in Luke 10:19 and Mark 15 weren't figurative but REAL and LITERAL.

If you want to keep arguing about it and lying to yourselves to accomodate your unbelief, feel free. I have rested my case on this issue.

trustman:
Gombs and Mbaemeka,

Only the original languages of Scripture can be said to be accurate in terms of inspiration.
 
Translations cannot be said to carry the same accuracy as the original languages. 

Therefore when there appears to be (or actually is) a contradiction between translations the best resort is to go to the original languages. 
In this case of Acts 28:3 the starting point should be what does the original say?
Is the word used in the original suggestive of
1. Hold on to, or
2. Bite?

The original translations said

1. It fastened in hostility; fit, etc his hand.

2. The Maltans saw it HANGING ON his hand.

3. He shook it off.

4. He FELT no harm and not that the snake DID no harm.

5. The Maltans watched for a long while.

6. When he didn't react to what they had seen, they concluded he was a god.

7. They brought the sick to him.

8. He healed them all.

Vooks,

You and your delusions. You are not deceiving anyone but yourself. Will I have to start explaining fastening and hanging to you? How does that relate with your picture? Anyone looking at any of the uploaded images can readily tell that it had nothing to do with a snake fastening itself or hanging ON a man's hand. I don't know what you smoke but I don't think Fela would have gone close to it. Even your comrades are trying to give you a softlanding by claiming that God prevented the snake from biting him. That's all extra biblical hocus pocus. The Eye witnesses called Paul a god because of what they witnessed. If a man shakes off a snake that barely wrapped his hands around him into the fire, how does that make him a god? If they didn't see the snake bite him then why conclude that he was a god when they could have simply called him a lucky man?

You lots problem is simply unbelief. The very Maltans after seeing this act brought a lot of sick folks to Paul and he healed all. The reason they knew he could heal them happened with his fulfilling the promises of Jesus.

If you don't believe, that is your own headache. The scriptures are very clear and besides, there are many other expositions and commentaries that say he was bitten. So it is not an issue of posting links to some commentaries (that's directed at the link posters).

vooks:
Puny brains,
That's in the scriptures and I posted the verse BEFORE you but you copied me
Is it in contention that the beast was hanging?

How does a snake fasten itself on someone and then others see it hang ON the person's hand?

'Non pruny brains' say it is by wrapping or binding.