₦airaland Forum

shdemidemi:
How do you have eyes and yet not see?

Nobody is debating WHAT he does. We are asking you HOW he does it and WHERE he does it from.

vooks:
Who said these groans are ours?

The bible clearly says so. Remember the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. He already knows God's will and thoughts but the Human being praying doesn't. So the Holy Spirit uses the human to pray (with the humans voice) because the human doesn't know how to pray as he OUGHT to. Not that he doesn't know how to pray at all.

Now Paul has told us that that prayer could be in articulate speech for e.g, tongues. And now in this verse he has shown that it could be inarticulate like groans (or even laughter) emphasis mine. All that matters is that whatever sounds are heard, they would always be interpreted to the will of God.

WinsomeX,

From basic mysticism, do you hear voices from spirits? 

Do you speak in tongues? 

What does mysticism say of the after life?

I believe that is your quote on the 2nd page of your thread. Now feel free to explain to us the line of your reasoning.

1. FROM BASIC MYSTICISM, do you speak in tongues?

This can be rearranged to mean that speaking in tongues comes from basic mysticism. QED

Secondly, I didn't say the Holy Spirit told me you said that. Please don't let your poor comprehension ability to betray you. I said the Holy Spirit told me you have NO fellowship with him and I stand by my claim. Then I said, I didn't even need him to tell me that before I knew. Your own posts have shown it over time. One of such posts is the above where you insinuate that speaking in tongues is mystic.

Do you understand so far?

vooks:
You need to man up and state your position like mbaemeka, I will toy with him till rapture but he knows his beliefs however wrong they are. I wish I could say the same for you.

Intercession is doing something on behalf of somebody. How do your prayers become Holy Spirit interceding for you?

The Holy Spirit does it through our own groans I.e with our own voices. The same way he uses our own hands to heal people or aid them financially. We are his outstretched arms and mouths. He speaks through us. That's why he could groan through Paul and other believers during their prayers and Paul said such groans are always in sync with the will of God.

vooks:
And you are deliberately muddying your ignorance when called out.
Christ blood was shed for everyone and in that sense he is a mediator between man and God. Having done that and. Moving into Heaven, there is NEW role He plays, interceding for us believers. If you want to understand what he is interceding for, look at the one intercession prayer he made in John 17.

The absurdity of claiming that Jesus is not in heaven mediating but his blood is is a testament to indoctrination. I can pick an Oyaks tape and you bet it will be there.

You want to demonstrate your arrogant ignorance by telling us exactly how his blood is in heaven is mediating in heaven for sinners or how his blood got there and where it is stored not to mention what anti-coagulants it has

My problem with you is that you do not study before posting any verse. And after you have done so, you keep applying underhand tactics to force others to teach you but at the end of the day, you offer no gratitude or obeisance.

You claimed Jesus blood does not speak but that he himself is doing the interceding. I showed you a clear verse saying his blood speaks and then you accuse me of muddying ignorance when it is obvious who the ignorant one is.

I from the beginning showed you how that Christ's role as an intercessor is not the same as the Holy Spirit's role. Christ is an advocate for the WHOLE WORLD (christians and unbelievers) but the Holy Spirit is an advocate for ONLY believers. You insist they are the same but you can not show just one verse to prove it- not one. Instead you misquote John 17 and tell me that was Christ's role as an intercessor yet the same inconsistent you, claimed the role you are referring to is a new one that he took on after his ascension in HEAVEN. Now kindly tell us whether Christ had even died by John 17 and if you cannot tell us that, we can conclude again that you spoke under the same infantile impulse that we have been warning you about.

Please take your time to read John 16:26-27 and take note of the phrase "in that day". You would understand what I have been saying from the bible which is:

1. Christ's role as a mediator, propitiation, advocate and intercessor is for the whole world (sinners and saints) and his presence in heaven is the proof of his role. For sinners he saves them when they come to him and for saints he keeps them saved as they abide in him.

2. The Holy Spirit's role as an intercessor, advocate etc is different because he is a gift to the believers alone. But he lives inside the believers so that is where he works from, using their own hands and mouths and bodies in general to fulfil God's will for them.

In a nutshell, Jesus is for the whole world and when we accept him he gives us the gift i.e the Holy Spirit to live in us.

^^^

Hebrews 12:24 KJV

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel

Feel free to call the scriptures terminal lunacy. You are only exposing yourself further and further. You have now also claimed that I said Christ's intercession is symbolic when all I have said all through is that Christ is interceding for the whole world and not just christians, unlike the Holy Spirit who does so for only christians.

You claimed Christ was only interceding for us and tried to relate it to the Holy Spirit's role in Romans 8:26 and I told you how both roles differ. To prove my points I asked you how Christ performs his intercessory role and what he aims to achieve through it but you could not answer me. You even mocked yourself by saying intercession was not for forgiveness but could not still tell me what it was for.

It is clear you do not know what Christ's intercessory role is and for whom he performs such roles for. So I charge you to keep mum and let those who have a clue discuss.

vooks:
You are a dishonest man


You have just denied something you posted. You need to repent over lying. You are aggressive in defending your beliefs but it is a shame that a man who prides himself with immortality ,maturity and immense spiritual experience can tell a bold lie

The other readers can judge what you are trying to claim all because you cannot answer the questions I asked.

How is he pleading for us? What is he pleading for? I dare you to answer it so we can see how it is exclusively for christians. Your answer will prove who is being dishonest here.

You are taking my question that you cannot answer and claiming that I have a negative implication for asking it? How dishonest of you.

I asked that question to prove to you that you do not understand Christ's role as an intercessor because you are comparing it to the Holy Spirit's when I told you that Christ's role unlike the Holy Spirit's has a wider reach in that he is working externally and for the whole world but the Holy Spirit is working in US and for us alone.

vooks:
You are wresting with scriptures my brother


Romans 8:34 (ESV)
34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us

Hebrews 7:25 (ESV)
25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

Hebrew 9:24 (ESV)
24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.


Once again, can you categorically say that as a believer you mr mbaemeka don't need ANY of Christ's intercession in heaven, and are excluded from the words highlighted in blue?

1 John 2:1-2. I didn't say he doesn't intercede for the christians. I said he doesn't do it for the christians ALONE. It is for the whole world.

vooks:
You don't need his intercession, right?

He is not begging for me to be saved or to stay away from evil. Jesus is on the place of power now (the right hand) and the father is IN him. Jesus is not pleading to the father per se. Jesus blood is what is pleading that men can be saved and that saved men are still saved.

vooks:
These verses restrict themselves to Christ sacrifice and not His intercession in Heaven
Again, Christ sacrifice is for everyone. Mediation is NOT intercession as used in the verses I just shared; it is ongoing in heaven. Is Christ still offering himself?

To understand why I said Christs intercession is not for only christians you need to understand what his intercessory role entails. What is he pleading for? How is he pleading?

I said it before that to us christians he is there to prove that we are saved. To the world he is there to prove that they can be if they believe in him.

But when it comes to the Holy Spirit, his role was for only us because he performs that role while dwelling in us.

vooks:
Hebrews shows us Jesus as BOTH a sacrifice and a High Priest. It is very clear the sacrifice was offered once and for everybody but his role as an intercessor is different from his sacrifice and that's why he is still at it. Again read Hebrews 9:24,7:25 and Romans 8:34

I can't dignify your spiritual aberrations sir, am too busy.

Again, the intercession for the saints are Holy Spirit's not yours

Jesus as an intercessor, is he pleading with God on the christians behalf? How so and why seeing that they are already christians?

The Holy Spirit makes the intercessions THROUGH the believer.

shdemidemi:
You make it sound like He is restricted to the body of a Christian, He is a spirit(wind) remember!

His presence is everywhere but his manifested presence is not everywhere.

vooks:
You have not shown any verse supporting Christ intercession for the world. Read Hebrews 9:24

Gal 3:20, 1 Timothy 2:5

To Intercede is to mediate.

shdemidemi:
Are you joking? The focus here is the word 'help' and not the helper's position.


check this -

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ctWbMD0_p_UC&pg=PT2720&lpg=PT2720&dq=Romans+8:26+vine%27s+expository+dictionary&source=bl&ots=XyaKu9q7uo&sig=xT7CmR6f78IH6o_f31oo9S38e4Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6_lbVIO6LNPfaPaCgMgH&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Romans%208%3A26%20vine's%20expository%20dictionary&f=false

I read the links and I would wish you would answer the HOW-question me and Bidam have been asking you. We didn't say the Holy Spirit doesn't make intercessions. We said he does it THROUGH the christian. He does not do it on his own.

Why not read up the meanings of the word Help as used there and the commentary he provided.

vooks:
Jesus intercedes for the saints. To whom does he intercede? To God? Does God intercede to God? What/who does he use to intercede?

I have shown how Jesus intercedes for the world and how the Holy Spirit intercedes for the saints. You lot should tell us how Jesus is there in heaven begging the father to keep the saints saved or answer their prayers. Even when Jesus told us he would never do that.

vooks:
High Priestly ministry even in the OT was for God's people not EVERYONE. There is nothing in Hebrews suggesting intercession is for everyone. The very verse employs pronoun THEM. who are 'them'? Those that come to God by Him. How difficult is it to see that. We are running against man made traditions again!

Show me where Christ's intercession is for EVERYONE. Your question is hopelessly irrelevant. You need to aks you EXACTLY what intercession Christ lives to make for those that come to God by him. Who told you it is forgiveness? Silly strawman you are erecting and knocking off


The parallel between Jesus' and Holy Spirit intercession role is to demonstrate how they are done independent of the beneficiary. So there is no way Spirit intercession can be the very prayers you are making

The word mediate and intercede mean the same things hope you know. Also, your reasoning that the High priest only worked for God's people and not everyone is equally OP like most of your posts. Jesus did not die on the cross for God's people, he died for the whole world. Do you see how the OT high priests and he differ?

My question was not irrelevant but because you don't even understand what is being discussed you saw no reason to respond to them. If you say his role as an intercessor is for only christians and that it had nothing to do with forgiveness then please show us what the role is. Also show us how he carries them out.

Your last paragraph is as dumb as it gets. Jesus is in HEAVEN making intercessions. The Holy Spirit is in christians helping them while they pray and you are drawing a parallel. What parallel? Why didn't the Holy Spirit stretch his own hands to heal people? Why did he answer the apostles by using their own hands?

shdemidemi:
If the Holy Spirit mediates like you said, that makes Him the mediator. A mediator gives a picture of somebody pleading for or against a person before another.

Do you agree?

The Holy Spirit is in the christian. That's how and from where he mediates.

shdemidemi:
What did he tell the fathers to expect?

What did he tell the diminutive to expect?


At least, you did not lie that you do not sin. Thank God.



They do differ, I agree. Do you know of any man that does not sin?

Just take your time to read it. The fathers are the mature christians. The one's who are well acquainted with the workings of God. They have known him well. The young men are those who are no longer tossed to and fro by doctrines. They are the one's who have placed the devil where he ought to belong- under foot.

Instead of asking me if I know of any man that doesn't sin why not believe John enough to grow to that level that he said was possible.

shdemidemi:
Lets say you help your child do his homework, does that translate directly to doing the homework together with the child?



I am also giving you the greek meaning for the same word...

Can 'helpeth' also mean 'help in bearing, help in general'?

I am not in my child. The Holy Spirit is in the christian.

There are different words for help in the scriptures. The one used there is not a help in general. It is a joint help.

vooks:
Semantics again.....The help is by way of intercession. So define intercession other than praying for somebody

I don't know how you people read.

1. Likewise the spirit helps US.
2. In OUR OWN weaknesses
3. For WE do not know how to PRAY the way we ought to.
4. So the Spirit makes intercession FOR US with groanings.

Helps- joint help, a partnership. The Holy Spirit partners with us when we are weak in prayer because we do not pray rightly as we ought to. So he intercedes for us through groanings.

How does the spirit groan? Through us.
Why? Because we may not be praying rightly.

The verse is clear enough. The Holy Spirit does not stand on his own. He is God himself. He cannot pray to himself so he uses the christian to pray so that he would pray rightly. That's why it is a collaborative effort.

shdemidemi:
If we don't know what he does, how then do we know how he does it?

What does it mean to intercede?

To mediate, to arbitrate, to moderate etc.

Now how does the Holy Spirit do it?

vooks:
Hebrew 7:25 (KJV)
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

This is the verse I had in mind when I compared Holy Spirit Intercession to Christ's High Priestly work in heaven. Intercession however you look at it is something done on behalf of men and nobody has explained how this is accomplished through my own prayers. Let's not be so dogmatic in reading tongues in Romans 8:26 just because we been told so

Mbaemeka,
About Jesus interceding for the whole world, you have provided a verse that says Jesus is PROPITIATION for the whole world a term am sure is totally different from intercession. Please, with the same energy you are dissecting HELPETH, paste the meaning of the word propitiation or at least look it up and you will see it is different. Propitiation has everything to do with the sacrifice and this is available for the whole world to any who believes. Intercession He does for believers alone.

Mediation is intuitive. He does it for all men. Nobody comes to the Father except through Him. This is closely related to the propitiation (sacrifice). But intercession, that's a Christians-only benefit

Go back and read my posts well and stop asking me questions OP. I said Jesus role as an intercessor is not the same with the Holy Spirit's because the Holy Spirit's role is metted out to the christian with the cooperation of the Christian but Jesus role is for the whole of mankind. If you read that whole chapter well you would understand the writers point. Paul was saying that as High priests in the past made sacrifices for themselves and for others this present High priest did same for others even if he himself did not need it. But unlike the other high priests who needed to keep making the same sacrifices yearly and who eventually died this present high priest did his once and is forever alive to make intercession for those that come to him.

The question you would need to answer in understanding that verse is to ask yourself why he needs to make the intercession. Is it that he needs to reshow the father his blood and say forgive him, forgive her or is it that his blood is forever there as proof that those who are in him are forgiven? Does he speak or does his blood speak?

Now compare that with the Holy Spirit's role to the church

shdemidemi:
Can 'helpeth' also mean 'help in bearing, help in general'?

Thank God the bible said the Holy Spirit helps US and not that he does it for us. The greek has shown that the help refers to a corroborative effort. The Holy Spirit does not automatically do anything. He helps us while we pray. That's what the scriptures say.

shdemidemi:
Don't confuse yourself sir.

If it is yet to be actualised, then they can't partake in what Jesus did or what He is doing or what He will yet do. The privilege is for those under the blood of the lamb and not those under the authority of the devil.

Did Jesus die for Christians? Is it not the whole world? Do you tell a sinner come to Jesus so that God will forgive you for your sins or do you say to him come to Jesus because God has forgiven you for your sins.

Jesus is not begging anyone. He never told us he would beg anyone. His sacrifice was perfect and complete. If he has to beg the father for anyone then it means his sacrifice wasn't good enough.

NB: Forgive as used here means remission.

shdemidemi:
Forget the role of the Spirit for a second. What does it mean to intercede?

Forget what it means to intercede. How does the Holy Spirit do so?

shdemidemi:
Why do you just jumble everything together?
'Children' as used in verse 1 and verse 13 of 1 john 2 is a term of affection teachers use when addressing their disciples. Peter and the rest of the disciples were not literally kids when Jesus called them children. Paul call believers children as well, regardless of the size of their spirituality.
Do you sin?
John knew a bit of how impossible this is hence he made this conditional statement- 'And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous':

I don't know how you can read your own posts and accuse someone else of jumbling things together. You quoted John and I showed you how John classified all those he wrote to in the same book and chapter and yet you left it to tell me Jesus called his disciples little children. While you cannot prove that it was only his disciples he called little children, it is also important to note that calling them little children had nothing to do with their ages or an endearing term but their level of spirituality as he duly explained when he told them so many things that he knew they could not understand at the point in time. Now John has done the same thing. He has told each level of Christians what to expect. If you cannot see it there, then I cannot help you.

Don't ask me that question about sin. I am quoting the scriptures because I believe them and I am growing to that level. I am not claiming it is not for me. The right person to ask should be John. Besides, John didn't say WHEN any man sins he said IF. Do you see how those words differ?

shdemidemi:
Are you confused?

What does it mean to intercede?

One of the roles of the Holy spirit is that he is a standby. How will he do that? Hint: like a standby Generator- he switches on when we switch off in weakness etc.
One of the roles of the Holy spirit is that he is a teacher. How will he teach us? Externally or from within?

That's the same way he intercedes.

shdemidemi:
Bro, get off your high horse, even the disciples and Apostles that walked with Jesus were not this vain.



Well, I won't employ your condescending approach to reply this post in as much as I am tempted to. God is in me, He lives in me, just like Christ is in me in the person of the Holy Spirit.

OK

shdemidemi:
How can you say Jesus is advocating for an unsaved world? An unbeliever can only be a part of Jesus when he accept and believe the gospel of Christ. Before that is done, they are condemned.

The same way he Mediates for MANKIND.

1 Timothy 2 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
5 for one [is] God, one also [is] mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus

I explained how Jesus advocates for the whole world (after quoting the scriptures). He is not in heaven begging God for sinners. His presence in heaven is his duty as an advocate and a mediator. He is there to prove that all men are already forgiven. But this truth will not be actualized until they believe in the Gospel.

shdemidemi:
Even this statement is one of an inflated self evaluation.

OK.

STRONGS NT 4878: συναντιλαμβάνομαι

συναντιλαμβάνομαι; 2 aorist middle subjunctive 3 person singular συναντιλάβηται; to lay hold along with, to strife to obtain with others, help in obtaining (τῆς ἐλευθερίας, Diodorus 14, cool; to take hold with another (who is laboring), hence, universally, to help: τίνι, one, Luke 10:40; Romans 8:26 (Psalm 88:22 (); Exodus 18:22; Josephus, anti. 4, 8, 4).

Hope you can see that there is an ALONG WITH, WITH OTHERS, WITH ANOTHER and not ONE PERSON DOING EVERYTHING? Let me spare you of not knowing that it depicts a joint help.

shdemidemi:
1) He doesn't call the unbelieving world his children. It's the believing element that is being addressed

2)We're going to sin! You might as well admit it rather than the 'adult christian mentality' you would like to depict.

1 John 2 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
2 My little children, these things I write to you, that ye may not sin: and if any one may sin, an advocate we have with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one,
2 and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,

Read your bible well.

12 I write to you, little children, because the sins have been forgiven you through his name;
13 I write to you, fathers, because ye have known him who [is] from the beginning; I write to you, young men, because ye have overcome the evil.

3 groups of people he addressed and these are not physical demarcations but spiritual as one can see what is expected of them all.

1 John 3 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
9 every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten.

Tell John that everybody must sin.

He was not speaking to babes but all believers Mba. He made mention of the world to make it clear that the salvation story isn't just limited to a specific group but for the entire world if they believe.
1 john 2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours(believers) only, but also for the sins of the whole world(caveat: belief).

Please read up. No need belaboring clear scriptures.

Have you visited the heavens to see what and how things work there? Please stay within what we have been told rather than try explain mysteries that are beyond us.

The joke is on you. I am quoting scriptures. If every christian will do that without pushing all behind or to the future