₦airaland Forum

vooks:
We have pursued this argument to its absurd conclusion where you infamously claimed that Christ would require your permission before taking you home with the obvious implication. You will once again be at pains in explaining the contradictions between pre-Fall life and life in CHrist. ANd once again you will resort the tired argument of faithlessness, little faith, ignorance bla de bla

There is no fixation with fallen world, it is a reality you can't ignore. A born again Christian does not live in Eden or even nothing close to Eden

As expected, adhominems soon to follow.

I didn't say this world is not fallen. I very much agree that it is. I explained the consequences of the fallen world and chief of which is SIN that reproduced- murder, wickedness, poverty, sicknesses, failures etc. Now Jesus came to defeat SIN as a whole and he told us that SIN shall not have dominion over us (who believe in him). Now if I tell people that they can live above sin and it's consequences in this world even while we wait for the new world and you say I am amiss? Even when I am quoting scriptures? Howbeit?

Bidam:
Good now you are contributing instead of your logical fallacy. I agree with James 5:14 which is a question, but does it contradict Isaiah 33:24?

Besides, James quizzed "is there any sick among you?" He ddidn't say "since there are many sick among you" or "there are definitely sick people among you". Even he expected it to be an anomaly.

shdemidemi:
No, when you take care of your spirit or nourish your spirit, you subsequently put your body under subjection and mortification. And this is the whole essence of God's truth. The word enable us deprive our flesh its desires.

That is why I don't completely rule out fasting(and this is not necessarily food, it can be anything) cos its a time to punish my flesh to keep my spirit man active especially when studying the Word.

The spirit and the flesh are constant enemies, the bible say they war against each other for domination. Therefore, at a time when our body is comfortable, our spirit man suffers.

Huh?

vooks:
Paraphrases are good but they often do serious injustice to the underlying message. Let's go Greek

Romans 5:17 English Standard Version (ESV)
17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Where did the idea of 'reign as kings' come from?
The contrast here is between the results of sin and the results of God's goodness.
1. Sin causes DEATH to reign
2. God's righteousness cause us to reign in life

But whatever meaning you assign to 'reign in life' (and am sure it points to more than the present life just like sin consequences extend to eternity), it was not sufficient for Paul to deem Christians without any hope of resurrection as any better than the rest of humanity. This would not have been the case if believers NOW have the monopoly of reigning as kings, have wealth,health and longevity...

MUCH MORE they which receive abundance....the Righteousness aspect is MUCH MORE than what sin could have done. Now let us take your own fixation on the fallen world and how that challenges come as a result of it. Paul says because of sin, the world became fallen and death reigned. What did sin bring? Sin brought poverty, sickness, lack etc. Now Paul says as righteousness came by Jesus Christ, those who now take a hold of the abundance of grace and the gift of Christs righteousness will reign in life. Reign over what? Reign over sin and the consequences of sin which are for e.g, sickness, poverty etc.

1 Timothy 4:8 AMP

For physical training is of some value (useful for a little), but godliness (spiritual training) is useful and of value in everything and in every way, for it holds promise for the present life and also for the life which is to come.

vooks:
If you had been following and UNDERSTANDING you would not have made some statements you just did. SO I had to waste my precious time just for your sake my brother


It doesn't matter how many scriptures call on you to 'agree with God', Paul clearly states that the Christian has nothing on the non-Christian in this world. This does not mean that at any given point in time ALL Christians will fare worse than the worst non-believer, just that Christianity's value proposition is resurrection and not a health,wealth and long life bliss tapped into by tons of faith

vooks:
It is well my brother.
Which scriptures have I ignored? This is a very serious allegation.

You may want to help mbaemeka in answering me on why Paul was INSPIRED to write that in absence of Resurrection Christians were the most pitiable

Paul did not say absent of resurrection we are the most pitiable. He said IF OUR ONLY HOPE was in this life then we are of all men most pitiable. In other words, if all the persecutions, beatings, scourgings, beheadings etc that Paul faced was ONLY so that he could enjoy in this present world, then he was suffering for nothing seeing that other men could enjoy life WITHOUT suffering the same persecutions that Paul suffered.

But thank God that our hope is not only in this life. We have a hope in this life and in the one to come.

shdemidemi:
SELF and how to love and care for self isn't part of christianity. Any one who love God must hate self thus says Christ. God's power is revealed when our flesh is weak.
2 cor 12
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: [size=24pt]for my strength is made perfect in weakness[/size]. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

When you are taking care of your spirit you are taking care of yourself. Ironic eh?

Thank God, that he told Paul his STRENGTH is MADE PERFECT in our WEAKNESS. He didn't say he leaves us till we come to join him in heaven.

shdemidemi:
Imagine 120 people storm out of a building to testify(i am using your interpretation of witness now) about a thing in diverse languages. I am sure one can assume they have been drinking from wherever they stormed out from.

One thing that is certain is that the languages they spoke existed. Does the contemporary tongue speaking christian speak any language that can be put in to writing.

The language spoken by the 120 wasn't a known language. The bible ONLY said that those around them understood the language individually in their own spoken language. What that means is that even though the tongue spoken was the same that Paul referred to in 1 Corinthians 14, in this situation someone from say Russia understood him, and yet someone from Spain too and someone from China too etc.

shdemidemi:
Good to know you are enjoying it bro. Your contributions are welcomed as long as we do not make this place a battle ground where we impose our opinions on one another.

You are right. However, the way God chose to arrange the writings of Paul proves that the bible isn't a man made idea but God inspired. Although the letter to the Corinth church was written before the book of Romans, Romans comes before it in subject arrangement on the bible table of content.

The Corinth church were certainly aware of the doctrines that were later documented in the book of Romans. How do I know? The book to the corinthians made reference to how they had been previously taught the teachings they were misapplying.

I agree that Paul wrote the book of Corinthians as a correctional tool. But what he was correcting wasn't necessarily what he taught in Romans. Paul had physically visited the Church in Corinth before and Taught them many things verbally but when he left they misapplied some things so he wrote them this time to correct the MISAPPLICATION of the things he had orally and personally taught them. So we can learn ALL from the book and not some.

In that book for e.g, he corrected the administration of tongues and not that he claimed there was an impending cessation.

shdemidemi:
The difference is that God's peace and joy are not earthly but spiritual, they are the manifestation of the understanding of God's word in the life of Christians.

On the other hand, wealth, health, security, prosperity et al are all worldly frivolities that does not have anything to do with ones spirit but relevant in the realm of the body/flesh.

Remember, man is divided in to two parts- biological (connected to the dust we were made from) and a spiritual life ( created by God) connected to God.

Our biological body responds to Wealth health money etc but our spiritual being is linked and responds only to the Word of God.

The spirit of man lives inside the flesh. So yes, we agree that the spirit (which is the real man) is more important than the flesh. But the flesh is what grants us access into this world without which we would not be here.

Now God told us he would take care of our fleshly needs even as he does our spiritual and you say I am wrong for telling people both? I can't possibly be. I am showing people the WHOLE COUNCEL of the word and not just one part. I cannot teach on ONLY the spirit, I would cheat myself of the vitalities in the flesh for e.g, Healing for my body, Security etc. Same way I cannot teach on ONLY the flesh and thereby cheat myself of the vitalities in the spirit for e.g, Joy, righteousness, Love, Soundness of mind etc.

The Two must be taught. That's the balance. That's what Paul said.

Vooks,


Romans 5:17 AMP

For if because of one man's trespass (lapse, offense) death reigned through that one, much more surely will those who receive [God's] overflowing grace (unmerited favor) and the free gift of righteousness [putting them into right standing with Himself] reign as kings in life through the one Man Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).

The word used for 'receive' here is active in the Greek. It means to take a hold of; to grasp; to grab forcefully etc. It doesn't mean to be given and then you collect it.

Now Paul is saying those who TAKE A HOLD OF the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness WILL REIGN IN THIS LIFE AS KINGS by ONE, Jesus Christ.

How can you say Jesus offers us little in this life? How can you say he offers nothing? How can you say Paul didn't teach so? What does it mean to reign in life?

Now use this verse to interpret your last two posts.

vooks:
Excellent submission
Christianity begins the moment faith in Christ is birthed in your spirit. This happened as Cornelius and co. sat listening to Peter.
On that verse, whatever benefits you can point to following Christians in this life, Paul felt Christians were the most pitiable of all men. How could he think this of a group that is privy to health,wealth and longevity?

Am certain you can see this point but you are avoiding it
Remember Paul is just pointing to the absurdity of faith in Christ if there were no eternity. It can't possibly be absurd for somebody enjoying all those goodies

You are conflating things. I know about Eternity and we agree on that but you deny the present and that is what I want you to see. It is the same Paul that said the gospel benefits us in this world and in the world to come. He didn't say it was absurd to believe the gospel could benefit us here. Eutychus is proof that the gospel benefits us here, the man at Lystra/Lycaonia is another proof.

Besides, the CAN there shows it is available in Christ but if one does not take a hold of it they will not experience it in their lives. Jesus is in the same token not dishing out any forgiveness per se. We are supposed to receive it as he has already given it. Same way with prosperity, security etc. Some people saw Jesus as only a teacher and all they got from him was his teaching messages. Some others saw Jesus as a Prophet and they benefited from his prophecies. Some others saw him as a healer and of course he healed them but there are some others who saw him as the SAVIOR of the world and to them he offered salvation.

It matters how you see Jesus. In the OT God said "I am the one who gives you the power to get wealth". So when did he relinquish that power?

^^^^

When people expressed worries about their needs why did Jesus refer to it as 'little faith'? Why did he in turn teach them that their HEAVENLY FATHER would PROVIDE ALL those things for them if they do not worry?

See, you cannot hold unto one side and then call others thieves for holding unto all. David did not say "I am the king of Israel, I will not want" he said "The lord is my shepherd". This means God also takes care of his children's wants.....

vooks:
And why would goDs be in trouble seeing they enjoy long life, health and wealth whenever and wherever they command it stuff ordinary mortals and baby Christians can only fantasize about?

See the point is to demonstrate how futile Christianity is in absence of eternity so much that there actually no point being in Christ

Everything is futile without eternity but Christianity does not begin at Eternity. It begins here and now. The strongest conviction that the lame man at the beautiful gate would have had about the resurrection of Jesus (and therefore proof of the afterlife) is that the man's name still did what the actual man was doing before he checked out. So if any Sadducee had told the man that his faith in a 'dead' Jesus was hopeless, the man could have easily pointed to his formerly lame legs to say "How can a man who is dead do this for me? Does it not prove that he is still alive?"

I am enjoying the thread so far but I just thought to correct shdemidemi on Romans and Corinthians. Corinthians was written before Romans so it could NEVER have been written as a means of correcting whatever was said in Romans since it came before it.

vooks:
Whatever benefits we get in this present world, they don't make a Christian ANY better than the next Satanist. If it were not so, this reductio ad absurdum by Paul would not make sense

1 Cor 15:19 (KJV)
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Here is Paul comparing a Christian's present life to a non believer. Anything Christians claim, you find it in abundance among heathens be it your long-life, health, wealth....with perhaps exception of spiritual warfare

The verse supports me. If our hope in christ was ONLY in this life we would have been in trouble. But thank God our hope is NOT ONLY in this life but in this life and in the life to come.

shdemidemi:
I think its only natural for men to always want to know what they can gain. Peter was no exception-
matthew 19:27
Then Peter said to him, "We've given up everything to follow you. [size=24pt]What will we get[/size]?"
Jesus never said your bank account will increase, or you will build a house or you will live forever. He said-
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
I believe true peace and joy is in Christ alone.

I also believe that true peace and joy is in christ alone. But not just true peace and joy: true wealth, true prosperity, true health, true wisdom, true security etc. They can only be found in Christ. So when you tell people that they can get all but the first two from the world, you are teaching a false message because Christ also gives the rest and a plethora of scriptures say so.

shdemidemi:
You think! Only the one who wears the shoes knows where it hurts. The bible says there is a false confidence that comes with money. Take money from an unbeliever you will realise how unbalanced their mind is in the midst of nothing.

Moreover, I am not deceived by glitters, I believe the word of God that says-
Romans 8
18 For I reckon that the sufferings(the entire world is suffering if we must compare it to the glory to come after the world) of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Their mind definitely react to haps and mishaps unlike a transformed believer who understand that all the world offers is but for a minute in God's eyes. A true believer maintain the same balance at all times regardless of plenty or nothing. Our confidence isn't in what the world offers but in God Himself.

The entire world is suffering, but in the midst of it all God's word says there is a benefit to be gained from it in this present world.

I have asked you for such benefits and you have claimed having a balanced mind. I haven't even asked for the scriptures that said so but I mentioned 2 Non-christians that claimed they too have balanced minds. I can also mention Tibetan Monks, the Dalai Lama etc. All non-Christians who are not pertubed by the love or lack of money. So how can this be what Paul was referring to? Remember, it is God through his word that said there are benefits to be enjoyed in this present life. So it is not even a question of what the world has to offer but what God himself said.

shdemidemi:
The benefit we get when we are spiritually fit is a balanced mind in the midst of nothing or plenty. We seize to see life from the world view but from God's stand point. Everything gradually seize being about self but about God and His service.

Dangote's mind is balanced. Oprah Winfrey's mind is balanced

christemmbassey:
God has given to us all things freely to enjoy, ......,.thrnugh his divine power, hath given to us all things that pertaineth to life and Godliness''. My question then is, why should i sow seeds or key into any man's anointing to recieve anything from God?

You don't need to sow into any man's anointing to receive anything from God but the bible still said if you sow you will reap, so one is not amiss to still sow.

trustman:
A quoted scripture may be misinterpreted and obviously subsequently misapplied.
A misapplied scripture can give false hope.

I agree. Now the question is, from that verse above, what are the benefits to be gained from this present world? I believe all of us agree that there are benefits in the life to come. But Paul also spoke about the benefits in this present world. That's what I am referring to.

^^^^

For Hope to be termed as false, it means the information that was passed to give anyone that hope was false. I quoted scriptures, and I can quote a lot more. Are you saying the scriptures are false?

What benefits will anyone gain in this PRESENT LIFE from the Gospel?

1 Timothy 4:8 AMP

For physical training is of some value (useful for a little), but godliness (spiritual training) is useful and of value in everything and in every way, for it holds promise for the present life and also for the life which is to come.

Jesus said the Pharisees on that day of Judgement will try to use Moses as their excuse. They would claim that if Moses indeed pointed them out to Jesus they would have believed in him. But Jesus said, Moses will be the one to deny them. He will tell them I told you many times but you didn't listen.

Now Paul is going to say the same things too. From the above verse he has told us how that the gospel will benefit us not only in this present world but in the one to come. Yet some people who claim to be following Paul have claimed that it is greed and love for the world that makes us believe so. Thank God Paul is not saying the same things with them.

How does the gospel benefit anyone in this present world? I thought it was suffer on earth and enjoy in heaven? I thought it was ONLY in heaven that the gospel will benefit us? I thought God was for the past and future while the present was for us to suffer poverty, ill health etc till we enter heaven?

Some gospel this is. I reject it in the name of the lord Jesus. Amen and amen.

Hebrews 11:8-9 KJV

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob lived together. That's how Jacob must have learned about tithes. If it was a one time event both Isaac and Jacob won't have known about it because they weren't born when Abraham tithed to Melchizedek.

shdemidemi:
And what is the moral behind the long sermon? you are an emotional, proud and egoistic man. All I see here is 'I, I, I', You just can't stand being challenged or chastised, yet you see yourself as the pinnacle of spirituality and an embodiment of God's knowledge. If the Word of God does not subdue the spirit of 'me, myself and I' in you there is problem.

Winsomex can't be entirely right and he can't be entirely wrong either, and the same applies to you so stop painting a picture of a perfect Man here.

Thank you for your very kind words even though my 'long sermon' was not directed at you nor did it mention you in any way, shape or form. You are the non-hypocrite who advised others not to take panadol for my own headache. I can see how you practice what you preach. Now please live me to learn from those I can learn from instead of condescending to discuss with non-egoistic, non-proud, non-hypocrite men who have nothing to offer.

Thank you again.

Bidam:
Mbaemeka was right. He followed the crowds that are calling the devotional gift of tongues gibberish. In other words he doesn't even believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

nlMediator:
Correct. Nobody is fooled by his antics. He claims he believes in tongues. But he turns around to reject tongues as generally understood by those who believe in tongues. So, he's no different from those who do not believe in tongues or who treat it as something "mystic".

Brothers, you need to understand the crux of the whole issue that is, if you are unaware. They created a thread to exchange prevarications and conjectures with themselves and nobody gave a hoot. Ihedi (purposely truncating his moniker so he doesn't see the unnecessary mention) tried to give opposing views but they didn't even let him have a say so he took the gentlemanly route and bowed out. In between I would see brother Image's moniker on the end of a page and I'd peep in and see he was trying to redirect their focus but they didn't entertain his "dissentious" views. One time he was pushed to the extent that he rubbished all their ideas on tithes so much so that they asked him to remove his post from their thread which he eventually did. The guy who suffered the most 'wounjuries' is here to testify. He is the same one that makes spurious claims and refuses to retract them even when cornered.

I only decided to make a post on that thread as I was led to and this was when I saw Nanny's post's. Initially they were not receptive of her as they felt she was there to disrupt their flow because she posed tough questions that they could not answer. I remember mentioning Nl and Brother Gombs to come and view the fiasco but you both disobliged . In retrospect, I am happy I posted when I did as until a few weeks back I didn't even know she worshiped where she worships.

The Bipolar disordered cum failed blogger cum multiple moniker owner kept making the same idiotic post's trying to give WOF a bad name and then hang them for it. He could say things like "WOF worship angels", "Paul warned us about worshiping angels. He said it is demonic" therefore "WOF is demonic, bro confused and bro dishonest will add more to this, I rest my case on F35" and then the troop will rush in to click likes. That thread would give BasketMouth comic ammunition for 2 centuries and a half.

With the last drop of commonsense that the failed blogger had, he avoided engaging me and I was happy because he didn't discuss with any ounce of spiritual or natural intellectualism of any sort. One time he developed enough clout and made one of those balderdash-laden posts at me, explaining how Jesus was a pauper who had nowhere to lay his head. Of course, I had him for breakfast and it is because of the whooping he suffered that he redirected his anger to brother Hagin when he saw from the 1st chapter of this book how he explained that Jesus was not a homeless Pauper as they had claimed. Interestingly, Brother Hagin's explanations where from a different perspective from mine but we still arrived at the same conclusions if not they would have called me a Plagiarizer- the last resort, when all else fails.

The few of them (and really I am referring to 1 person) who had some degree of Integrity Quotient didn't bother raising old dust from the previous thread as they silently learnt lessons and made amends but the chief Ignoramus tried to cast Hagin in bad light by even attempting to question his motives for writing the book. We saw how commonsense again made a fool of him on this thread. On one other thread he said Jesus used the word power twice and never referred to miracles while at it and I and Gombs didn't let him off so easily. He even had to claim it was a typographical error but I can assure you that he didn't misuse any tense or misspell any word. It was what it was- a ginormous goof !(pardon the portmanteau)

I warned him to steer clear off my posts which his old handle did but because he is suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder he created a new moniker to initiate threads on CEC's president. Of course, the name changed but not the bitterness, envy and ignorance. He quoted a post of mine and responded with the same lies but I spotted him out in a heartbeat without even taking note of his IP address or the etisalat line he probably uses to post. When he was asked to disprove that he managed 2 accounts he "pleaded the 5th" but everyone could tell he was still the same vo.yeur and I am right in calling him so, if not he should explain to us how he saw Rev. Chris "caught pants down" borrowing his own words.

Most of them don't communicate to exchange truth. It is all about "likes"garnered and the overbloated self-importance. One particular day while scouting through the Religion section as a guest, I came about a thread where the new moniker made a post and there was the old one on the side "viewing" it. Seconds later, I let my curiosity get the best of me when I refreshed the page and there it was- Old had liked New's post, as Old was at that point the only viewer and New had gained 1 more like. Imagine if such a person became a top office holder: He would rig-in his village headmaster to become the President of the Harvard Alumni.

Now imagine him and his delusions. On this thread he expressed his surprise that I responded to his posts which he directed at me, yet he is now telling me not to discuss with him again on this forum as if I enjoy dumbing myself down with his pseudo-intellectualism. 2 men exchanged words and when they were done the first one said "Let's not speak to ourselves again, no hard feelings". The other quizzed "no hard feelings?", and then he concluded insouciantly "no feelings at all". I am the second man.

John 16:14-15 KJV

He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

I thought I said it earlier? That Christ or The Father only takes form in us by the presence of the Holy Spirit. Jesus doesn't walk up and down. The bible says he is SEATED in Heaven at the place of power while the invisible Father now lives in Jesus. So whenever Jesus wants to make his presence known to anyone, the Holy Spirit is the one who shows up and we know that for 2 reasons:

1. The name of the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ (John 14:26)
2. The Holy Spirit is Allos Parakletos.

shdemidemi:
2 cor 5
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Col 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Is Christ in you?

shdemidemi:
You are back with this joint help palaver today.

Can 'help' also mean 'help in bearing, help in general'?

What does it mean to groan?

The word for help in greek as used there means we are working together with him and not that he is doing it for us while we stand and watch.

Groan means to make unutterable sounds I.e they are inarticulate and cannot be expressed in words or fine speech.

shdemidemi:
The same way Jesus does it. Why do you think the Holy Spirit need me to speak before intercession takes place?

Jesus is in HEAVEN doing it for those who will come to him and those who have. But the Holy Spirit is in us on earth and he uses us to do the interceding for ourselves. Just like he uses us to heal, feed, clothe people etc.

vooks:
Thank you mbaemeka,
Tongues I fully understand, but they are never called Spirit intercession; they are and are clearly depicted as OUR prayers. But here we have a verse where Holy Spirit is not once but twice said to be groaning for us. That's why I said if you are open minded or unbiased, you are least likely to conclude that Spirit intercession is praying in tongues. Just saying

He is groaning for us- we agree. What we asked is where is he groaning from and how? The very scriptures say he does it with our 'joint help'. He gives us what to say and we say it.

vooks:
Blood speaking is symbolic sir. That's why it speaks BETTER things than that of Abel. Is Abel blood talking? What did it tell you last night? Blood of Jesus speaking in that verse is as literal as Abel's. Again I won't compete with you in hallucinations.

In three clear verses, Jesus role as an intercession in heaven is well presented. Paul wondered who bewitched Galatians before whom Christ was evidently set forth as crucified. You have a Galatians spiritual IQ

Truly the natural man cannot understand the things of the spirit.

God told Cain that his brother's blood was speaking to him. It is God who hears these sounds- not natural men. The blood of Abel kept asking for vengeance. Now Jesus' blood is better because it is asking for Mercy. Jesus blood is in heaven as the evidence that men can be saved and that saved men should remain saved. That's how he is interceding.

The Bible says he has appeared before God ONCE. He doesn't appear every time neither does he beg God for us. That's an insult. Jesus intercedes by his presence and his blood I.e when Satan wants to accuse a christian, Jesus presence and blood shows that Satan has no case. And when Satan wants to claim a sinner cannot be saved, Jesus presence and blood shows satan equally has no case. That's how he intercedes, mediates, advocates for ALL OF US who have come and who will come to him.