the features and how to represent it using the User Interface. I noticed that focusing on user interface and features enables you to end up with a nice looking website. Don't think of the UI in terms of javascript, html, css, just design the graphics and how each UI component will respond then map the flow to the features of the web.

u guys didn't even recommend any php book, secondly, he wont die if he learns PHP from the manual, it has programming examples, data types, language construct sections etc. The guy tell una say he wan learn programming abi PHP mtscheew

In addition to what seun said, go to www.php.net and download the php manual.

ekt_bear: I do have some minor annoyances with this language though, I must say.

I don't like how I write len(object) rather than object.length or something.

The former doesn't feel very object oriented

I also dislike that parenthesis are required for print() statements in python3.

lol c'mon even parenthesis, soon you the computer 'll compile your thought since you dont wanna write anything lol

Seun:
- GUI programming.
- Sysadmin scripting.
- Programming for embedded systems.
- Building a shared components like caches for use in multi-threaded web programs.
- Processing background tasks.
- Building a standalone web server.
- Exploratory programming using a REPL.
- Programming with co-routines and lightweight threads.
- Software projects that make use of exotic architectures.

I'm not an expert in PHP, but the basic idea is that Python, as a general-purpose programming language like Java, C#, or C++, is designed to handle any type of programming task - provided your performance requirements are not extreme - while PHP evolved as a web templating language and struggles with anything outside that narrow area. It can be made to work for other things, though.

@seun thanks for pointing them out but PHP can equally be used for these things like
-PHP GTK for GUI programming.
- sysadmin scripting tru PHP CLI(Command Line Interface)
-Build Thread App.
-Background processing through PHP exec() function (thats if what u mean by background processing is same as what i think).
-Web Server- i think PHP can be used to create a socket that listens for connection at a particular port and hence can serve web pages.
- PHP can equally be used to do REPL.
- as for exotic architecture etc i don't really get what you mean.
Finally, i what i understand is that PHP can equally do whatever Python can do, it's a matter of how good one is, though it might be harder to achieve in PHP, same goes for Python, PHP can be better in some areas, so my verdict is that beginners should spend a week to learn both and even other languages, consider the part they want to follow then pick the best. Most of these features wont even be used by a programmer. For instance, how many Nairaland programmers does sysadmin scripting(No Offence intended), how many people need standalone web server etc. whether Python or PHP focus on algorithm design and learn programming paradigms. Cheer. Once again, Seun, thanks for pointing out these things. This is what i expected and some people were busy telling me python enables println 'hello world'.

spikes C: seun is still commiting the crime. The OP wants a specific example,not something generalised. I can say that PHP is better than python because it does what python stuggles to do,now that needs an explanation and few examples.

Now, PHP in its simplistic form is a language meant for beginners. New programmers who started with PHP mostly end up on the web part. It is very easy to pickup and has so many functions that performs almost everything. The problem with PHP is that, it is not static and doesn't follow a proper coding style. They accept external functions and classes without much review. Infact PHP is a does-it-work language. I wonder if the people adding those functions ever read the documentations,but on the other hand it might be good. There're so many functions that does the same thing and even more are been added. The PHP developers are die hard backward compatibility keepers. If they remove most of those functions, 80% of live websites will go offline. Secondly, there libraries, people say that they have so many classed that actually does the same thing. But what they don't know is that people have preferences. So many xml parsers abi, well some of them are more advanced that the others. I have a friend who uses regular expressions in all text searching instead of the normal string functions. These are all personal preferences.
To me, use what will get the job done on time, efficient,reliable and fast. I would never use PHP to develop enterprise desktop apps. It can do it but not suitable for it. So,for my fellow developers, go learn new languages and beef up your resumes.

To the guy that gave an example of python's print('Hello world')
PHP has echo 'Hello world';
Pls,which one is shorter

In addition to ur statement 'go and learn new languages and beef up ur resume' i'll add learn atleats one language from each programming paradigm, like a procedural language, an OOP language, scripting language, Functional language, etc even if you dont use it, the idea and concepts learnt will be help. for instance, i had a need for an embedded database for a desktop app that i developed. I didn't want to use sqlite cos it doesn't mean d demand without stress, if i must use mysql(which i use always) i'll have to embedded the Mysql embedded driver which is about 10mb(driver alone), i researched and found H2(1MB driver size yet has same features that mysql has) and used it, i spent few days to master it and integrate it into my java desktop app. That doesn't mean if 2mao someone asks me which database should i use i'll say H2. Before picking any technology or language, try available options and pick the best that suits your need. In the book seven languages in seven weeks(not the exact name sha), the author stated that beginners should spend a week to try out languages Haskell(functional), Java(OOP), Prlog(inductive/logic) etc then pick one based on his/her needs. One the person will have knowledge of programming paradigms etc. When i learn programming with Java, i thot that the authors style of coding(most) are defined in Java, then i read another Java book, Java became clearer to me, then i read a VB book for like a week, i started thinking in terms of algorithm and solutions not in terms of programming language.

Seun: @megaplaza: Python is a general purpose programming language. It can do web, desktop, CLI, whatever, though it's rather slow. The problem with starting with a specialized web programming languages is that, when you need to do something outside the web, you'll have to learn an entirely new language. That's a steep learning curve. You end up limiting yourself to the web in order to avoid that. The problem with PHP specifically is that, even in web programming, it struggles to do things Python does elegantly & effortlessly.

@seun thanks for your comment but stating those things that PHP struggles to do that Python does elegantly and effortlessly will be great.

A-ZeD:
Megaplaza
I get your point about the whole issue(reason for starting the thread)and the best advice in my opinion is to use which ever language your friends use because when ever you run into problems your friends are the ones likely to help you.
I learnt python before php and i love the language but i've never used python for anything proffesional cos the two places i've worked use vb.net and php.
I intend to do something with python soonest

thanks, goodluck with whatever language you pick. Atleast you understand my point which is for instance, i use PHP and love it but i wont use PHP GTK for GUI programming, not that its bad but i think PHP is for web development. That doesn't mean someone won't use PHP GTK zetcode.com/gui/phpgtktutorial/introduction/ for GUI app development. PHP CLI enables it to be used for shell scripting, running from command prompt and development of GUI app but i only use it for rapid web app developement and Java for desktop app development. Know about things then pick what suits ur style or ur need.

webdezzi:

do you package non-tested code.
when you run it, you get the error, then fix it, same way you get syntax errors.
if you expect an int and your user passes in a string, you need to validate user input.

i rest here, i believe anyone looking to raise a topic like this need to speak both languages.

lol ofcourse u validate all user input, you might even be the one to override the type of a variable in ur code, the fact that vaibale i can be int then string without error being generated is quite confusing and this is a minus for dynamic typed languages not just Python. look at Scala it's static typed but you dont have to declare variable like public int sum =0; u do val sum = 0, it automatically detetcs the type int but you are not allowed to change sum again. If i declare a function variable as int, i dont have to worry about mistakenly changing the data type by assigning it to say string later in the program. I should program in both? through my 4 years in school i have been able to write atleast basic programs in FORTRAN, GWBASIC, PASCAL, C/C++, PHP, Javascript, Java, Python(yes python surprised), C#.net, VB, VB.net, ASP.net/ASP, Scala, Clojure, Haskell, etc, oh i forgot i even tried Erlang, some i learnt and used only for a week. I have my reasons for picking PHP, Java and Scala(recently), maybe am not that good in python infact am not good but i haeython IDLE and books on my laptop, i look at it everyday, sometimes i load the IDLE and write some python codes but it doesn't apeal to me to even decide to go deeper. Scala construct is close to Python's, etc i dont even like the code organisation, using one line to get a result like listVariable.reduceLeft(_+_) give u sum of a list of values, listvariable.map(_*2) will return a new list with values that are multiples of 2. (1 to 50).sum gives u the sum of the range these are even simple one liners that does magic in scala. etc. It's was very confusing but i decided to learn Scala because of It's Actors support for concurrency programming. Easy integration with Java code/library and it's easier atleast to me than Clojure(very close to lisp). My point is learn languages especially for beginner, it won't hurt, it will even increase ur knowledge of programming, then pick the ones that suit u and ur style then go deeper in it/them. my way of thinking about programs changed after learning all these languages. Now i see alogrithmic solutions not programming language dependent solutions,

webdezzi:

php codes written by Rasmus Lerdorf will definitely beat my python code, same way python written by guido van rossum will beat your php code.
cos the experiences we all have may not match.

comparing a language against another is really not worth it since the programmer's experience and logical reasoning is what counts.
except like yea, this available method saves time, that syntax makes life more easy.

You dont even get my point about the typing stuff. Have you ever passed a variable to a function and when you run it it pops up error that parameter type passed doesn't match expected parameter type, this will be detect in java while you are still writing the code but in PHP and even Python, you wont find out until you run the code, thats a minus for dynamic typed langauge. And finally let me make it clear, am not comparing Java, PHP and Python. My point is when newbies ask questions about what to learn, we should just recommend langauges and how to get started let the newbie pick what to learn cause like you said the logical reasoning and experience is what matters, i have said this when i gave an instance of what happen on stackoverflow where a python programmer critised PHP for not having a function for extracting file extension maybe he wasn't aware of PHP pathinfo($filename, PATH_EXTENSION_INFO) or so function in PHP and he was busy saying trash about PHP. Some people might see it and buy his idea. Which is false. Same way i said python programmers promote python saying it has Functional Programming support while PHP doesn't but PHP 5.3(am sure) supports Functional programming and has functions such as mapreduce, list construct, closure(anonymous functions), defining functions inside a function, even callback functions and passing a function definition to a variable then call the function using the variable name etc. I rest my case.

webdezzi:


i quoted that example to support python as a rapid application development language.





thats cos the interpreter does the type conversion bro!
thats no point.

ok i get your point, just trying to say that Java is pure OOP, if you write python OOP code i doubt println 'hello world' will be enough. I think i have achieved somethingg with this thread, now newbies can go through it, do google search, trying out some of the languages mentioned and pick which to learn. I still think PHP beats python in terms of rapid web development especially if you dont use framework, same way i think Java EE is an overkill for small or medium scale web app even though am a Java developer and i use Java for desktop app evelopment. I intend to use Scala for future Large scale web app developement using Lift framework. Thanks for your comment. Cheers.

webdezzi: haha, thread already escalated!

@OP i am not going to try to convince you instead state my own experience.
I use PHP, Java and Python

from my experience with all 3, i "believe" python has no match.
I am yet to use python on the web but i can see right through why Seun is a python enthusiast.

This is fact and true, Python gets the job done, faster and efficiently.

in java, to print a word, you will have to



in python


I worked on a project recently where i had to do python and Java side by side,
I can recollect going back to declare variables before using them in java whereas in python, i can use a new variable on the fly, no object casting like you have to do every time you fetch an object in ArrayList and other containers in java.

I read someone said python aint clean, Please go and learn it.
It is so clean, it looks like an art work, Most of what you do in python will fit in your head easily

in python your code MUST looks like this



in java, you are permitted to code like this, like a mad man





in python, i can have more than 1 class in a single file, unlike java where you Must create a new file for a new class
the beauty is this, you can have 4 or five small cool classes in a file tucked somewhere, just import that file and you are good to go
very good when developing a large application with several classes


you cant get all am saying until you try python out.
If you dont intend to stop coding in your current language, then dont try this cos you wont go back.

you forgot that Java is a pure OOP language, can you give me a python version of println hello world. Besides this instance to me is not enough reason to recommend a langauge for someone, I also program in Scala, you can also do println 'hello world'. That doesn't mean i will come here and tell someone is Scala or nothing. I believe someone should be given examples of each language, their strength and weakness infact the person should learn each langauge atleast variable declaration, syntax etc, language construct then pick the suitable one. Some might say that Java is verbose because of curly braces etc but the truth is that i dont face codes without curly braces cos it's easy to get lost. I know number of times i used IDE's curly brace matching feature to even know what is what, no matter how you nest and clean up your code, once it gets to 100, thousands lines of code, you need a marker.

webdezzi: haha, thread already escalated!

@OP i am not going to try to convince you instead state my own experience.
I use PHP, Java and Python

from my experience with all 3, i "believe" python has no match.
I am yet to use python on the web but i can see right through why Seun is a python enthusiast.

This is fact and true, Python gets the job done, faster and efficiently.

in java, to print a word, you will have to



in python


I worked on a project recently where i had to do python and Java side by side,
I can recollect going back to declare variables before using them in java whereas in python, i can use a new variable on the fly, no object casting like you have to do every time you fetch an object in ArrayList and other containers in java.

I read someone said python aint clean, Please go and learn it.
It is so clean, it looks like an art work, Most of what you do in python will fit in your head easily

in python your code MUST looks like this



in java, you are permitted to code like this, like a mad man





in python, i can have more than 1 class in a single file, unlike java where you Must create a new file for a new class
the beauty is this, you can have 4 or five small cool classes in a file tucked somewhere, just import that file and you are good to go
very good when developing a large application with several classes


you cant get all am saying until you try python out.
If you dont intend to stop coding in your current language, then dont try this cos you wont go back.

as for mutiple classes in a single file, i guess you know about Java Inner classes, as for declaring variables on the fly? Dont even go there, Python dynamic and weak typin is to me a minus(-), cos sometimes the variable doesn't have the data type you think it has. I think to reduce bug, any programming language should be static typed. If you want variable sum to store integers, why in a later part assign it string. This has been proven to make dynamic languages not just Python to generate error during use easily cause you have to remember the expected data type of variables, i dont even like the fact that PHP has weak typing, u can do $i = 3; then $i = 'hello';

broswilli: Python and PHP are two powerful scripting languages. Python was Developed by a mathematician so the language is structured logically. PHP was developed when the need arose to create dynamic web pages as quickly as possible and it continues to excel in this direction. PHP developers slogan is to Keep things Simple Stupid (KISS) Methodology. If you want to enjoy PHP Programming try using a framework like Codeigniter (That is after knowing the basics). Python programing is quite simple but it is more difficult to built a web app from scratch with python than with PHP. Knowing python means you can apply your scripting skills in other applications like Inkscape, Gimp, Blender and the list continues. There is nothing wrong knowing both programing languages, but if ur priority is web development you may startup faster with PHP, You can be brought to speed with Python Web Development using frameworks like Django or Turbo Gears. Please note that programing languages are more like personal preference just like Dress Sense. Good Luck making ur choice

Nice comment, i started this post because once newbies come here and ask which programming language should i learn people start sayin python, python, python. So i wanted them to prove their point. I remember back in 2004 when i was about to learn programming, my mentor was an egyptian .NET programmer. He didn't say learn C#.net or Java. He gave me the pros and cons, etc solid reasons without sentiment and i went for Java.

mikron: @OP, what is the meaning of PHP? Just curious

you can google it, hypertext preprocessor which in my own understanding was meant to preprocess html pages before serving. I dont think python beats PHP in terms of web development. Because PHP was built for this, try coding web app without python framework and try coding PHP web app without framework, you will understand.

A-ZeD:

So far, i've not run any php code without starting up the browser


Python Php
1) start python interpreter(idle) 1)start IDE for php
2) Write code 2) Write code
3)See result immediately in idle 3)Run code
4)Wait for browser to start
5)see result

i can remember back in 2007 when , i installed PHP not with wampserver though php installer from php.net, you can write php codes from command prompt, it runs and displays result immediately i think with cmd>php echo 'hello word', press enter so get your facts right. If you develop a python web app shey you do test it at ur cmd prompt?

moderattor: python can be used to develop phone apps PHP cant.
But python is the chief priest, PHP is the god!

lol are you trying to say that Python serves PHP.

ekt_bear: @megaplaza:

The Java programmer is actually pretty good imo. Like, in this group, it wasn't as if any of us are much better/worse programmers than the other...all approximately equally talented at programming.

my point is that the feature you need in a language might be available but because you are not aware of it, once you see another language with that feature, you will say ok this (the new one) is better. So maybe he doesnt know about Java statistics api/numerical lib that can be used to perform intense numeric computation

ekt_bear: For our project, we had one guy who spent a ton of time writing stuff in Java wasting his time implementing low-level features. His stuff didn't work.

The other two of us did Ruby (me) and Python (the other guy) respectively, and got a ton of work done in our time frame.

You can always optimize away bottlenecks later...first important to get up something running before you worry about speed imo.

You are judging java based on the ability of your java programmer, smh, for instance some weeks ago someone was saying that php is trash that php doesnt have a function that gives file extension once given the file name on stackoverflow, someone said it's not true try PHP pathinfo($filename, PATH_INFO_EXTENSION), my pointis this same person said he likes python cause python does have such function, he didnt even know PHP has same function. some said Python can be used for functional programming, i found out that PHP as at PHP5.3 can also be used for functional programming, finally, some programmer struggle with algorithms, api and methods. if someone doesn't know about a feature of a language that he is using, he 'll have a very hard time achieving that feature in the language. like the example above the guy might be forced to write his own pathinfo() or switch to python like he did.

goon:
Ermmm, i totally disagree. It depends on the type of application. Some applications are better written in Java than in Python and vice versa...

canyou give instances, for instance we all at least i think most know that C/C++ is suitable for system programming, python and Java can compare .

goon: Python makes a programmer's life easier.
@OP, i guess as a java programmer, u must have written some android apps in java before...
Try same in python and u would understand what am talking about...
Compared 2 python, Java and PHP are a pain in d ass.

i dont understand your point. please be explicit.

kodewrita: Another strike in python's favor is the fact that its currently also being used as the macro language for very many applications ( Inkscape, Blender, CorelDraw, AutoCAD etc). So if you have Python skills, you only have to learn the unique objects in each application to become AWESOME. Not a Python fanboy by the way ( or any other language for that matter). I adapt based on expectation (customer's).

Good, some days back i downloaded Blender but my point is even if python is being supported by these groups does it make it better than PHP. cause i know marketing is involved in the pythin buzz. for instance, people adopted Java mainly because its open source, write once and run anywhere feature, it abstracted things like socket communication, garbage collection etc eliminated pointers these feature made it easier to program in compare to see. all i want is for python programmer to say look at what my python has and how easy it makes these or that. Coreldraw, etc support to me doesn't make sense cause Most python programmers dont even use this python say blender integration. how many python programmers design games in Blender and use python scripts to .....

@ekt_bear, well thats you choice, i still dont see how a language that hardly marks group of statement is consider clean. can you give an instance of where Python was productive over other langauges used in the project. am not doubting what Python enthusiasts are saying, am just saying show me proof and facts. atleast, i know all the buzz about being clean is a lie, all these magic words are marketing strategy fueled by Google.

Thanks for your comments, i dont intend to learn python, got the ebooks last year around May but the code looks gibberish to me and i wonder why people keep saying that its clean. even with Java and PHP curly braces somethings i have to rely on IDE brace matching to know which which group of code is which and i wonder why people keep saying lack of curly brace etc makes python clean. one more thing a lot have been said about php security flaw can someone please point one the flaws and how python fixed those flaws. thanks all.

i started programming with php, then moved over to Java, i did more java before coming back to php to tighten up my skills. am not about to start another best programming language war but what i want if for Python enthusiasts on nairaland to give me instance where Python beats PHP, or USES Cases where Python 'll outperform PHP. also if there is any of you that have done a benchmark of memory and runtime of both should post the code and results here. i think PHP has been maligned so much, it was the Goose that Laid the Golden Egg for web developement and i want to use this opportunity to restore its honor. i have done my research functional programming is possible in PHP, closure, list, is possible even range, array_map, array_filter etc. i await the response from Python Purist and enthusiast here, convince me to drop PHP and Scala atleast the former to learn Python, i need facts not links personal development experiences.

you have to create the human like object using 3D modelling tools then save as .3ds file or .obj file etc then use a loader class for the file format e.g for .3DS file you will need a 3DSLoader class which you passes the path/filename to create an objectt then use in ur app.

i heard and have seen examples in Scala and Erlang, both are functional programming languages, that handles concurrency with few lines of code using Actor model. Good new is Scala interoperate with java and compiles to JVM bytecode i.e java classes. Check out Scala concurrency examples on google,

you can use java as front end and sqlite as db but u need to get java sqlite driver and package it with the java app. its very simple but i recommedn that you use h2 embedded database. it more robust and sophisticated than sqlite.

[b][/b]hey folks,share in d ekubos' joy as they r crowned d best dance family in d just concluded maltina dance all season five. Me think it ws freest n fairest n well deserved as d family members hv exceptional dance moves tht got them endeared to the hearts of many viewers. Wht d u think?

please, fellow Nairalanders, i will like to know the pros and cons of studyin for M.sc in India while getting IT certifications too. I need responses from experiences, stories, cost, welfare, , Thanks.

@fayimora, i must give it to you that you are smart but then the JAND factor is playing a role. You spent 6 years schooling in Nigeria probably secondary school education in a good school. Hmmm try studying com. Science in Nigeria and you will confess. I did comp sci, just graduated 4rm unical, the truth is dat till u graduate you will be writin only programs to calculate sum of numbers, standard deviation blah blah blah, ask the hard question and they will turn into assignment 4 u. Dat apart, talk about resources, books(there is hope now cos of ebooks), internet access (very expensive), power supply, na when u spend 2 weeks without power supply you will know weda na solar energy ur lappy or desktop dey use. am not sayin d JAND factor made u who u r, just sayin it encourages you, the environments here discourages and frustrates. I keep telling people if my lectures in school couldn't stop me from loving programming then i can neva stop.