Mee234: Some muslim leaders during the golden age became uncomfortable with openness and pursuit of any other forms of knowledge but that of Allah. Their felfdom was threatened by people's interest in other things hence the need to discourage education. The result is what you are seeing. While the Arab world increased in the knowledge of Allah, they decreased in technology.

Some lessons in history should never be forgotten.


However, your comment in bold is interesting. Wouldnt you rather say that they were trying to find Allah through the wrong avenue of politics and power instead of finding Allah in the diverse nature of people and the wonders of the world through science and technology?

usermane:
You want my answer?,u want my own version of the truth?. Ever wondered why there have been no response so far on your thread?
Nairatalk, this is no joking issue. This is a serious issue where a lot of muslims hate to discuss. I already spoke with someone about this and he was getting emotional over it. Is this section ready for my answer?, can you all handle the truth? The truth is like fire, i 'll give it to only those who can handle it.
No,no i cant spill out the truth, not everything, not this morning.

Nobody is perfect. The islamic states have their fair share of faults, a lot they are unwilling to take responsibity of. They are wealthy and could stand on the same technological level like Europe and america if they wanted. However, they just won't because they are scared, too scared of venturing into anything else because they believe it might lead them astray Look around them. Nearly everything is forbidden. Look how they dress, especially the women,does it create room for manufacture of varieties of clothing. How much of socialising and recreation do muslims indulge in, to desire for their own technological invention. The world mean nothing to them. Their only concern is the Hereafter and if securing success in the hereafter mean forgoing science and technology then so be it. But the western world don't give a damn. Rather they are willing to strive for a better world here on earth.

Yeah Khalid,there are several reasons why we 've become backbenchers. It is just too much of a stretch to say this is the only cause, but i wont mention the rest.

Wait, are you a muslim?

Well, thanks for your answer. Some of what you say is true. I noticed that the West is moved by profits and individualistic gains. While there are some problems with such western motivations, there are advantages to it in the sense that the Westerners focus on things that work and bring profit/comfort to them.

I think many Islamic countries have actually become dogmatic theocracies rather than trying to find a balance between religion, politics and science. Everything is religion and anything outside religion is wrong to them. Such a philosophy is wrong. The Quran has an answer to that- there is no compulsion in religion

usermane:
u r still the asker here jack... Khalid asked the question originally and u passed it down here cos u need a response. Perhaps u might have seen the validity of this question in the past even before khalid asked.
Whatever u do,try answering my initial question

Why dont you answer the question in the op?

I didnt create this thread to answer you own questions

usermane: Mr OP, dont be so naive. You really think, only one fella could answer your question? This is not a simple question and the answer is not as simple either.
If u really want the answer to this question, a question which a lot of muslims either never ask or dont have the right answer to, then find the answer to this question:
"WHY DO BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE?"
It took me sweat,blood and tears to get the answer to this question. Once u get the answer, u automatically answer your own question.

I am not the one asking the question. It was a question by a young muslim which I found interesting.

To be honest, I am not satisfied with Tbaba's response. I am not here to argue and that is why I just agreed with Tbaba.

Paschal007:

One quick question sir. The west that are technologically advanced on the right path?

Depends....what is the right path to you?

tbaba1234: Like I said, all he needs to do is read his Quran.

.....God does not change the condition of a people unless they change what is in themselves, but if He wills harm on a people, no one can ward it off–apart from Him, they have no protector (Surah 13:11)

you are sure to be tested through your possessions and persons; you are sure to hear much that is hurtful from those who were given the Scripture before you and from those who associate others with God. If you are steadfast and mindful of God, that is the best course. ( Surah 3:186)

The messenger heard worse to his face.

The muslims had their golden age under islamic rule, they abandoned Allah and his laws and then complain.

Does it make sense?

I understand your point. You are saying that some muslims have deviated from the path by their own will and are now complaining about ending up in the bush.

Surah 13;11 is deep....

Thanks

tbaba1234: The question is dumb... The guy should go and read his Quran and some history.

Sorry.

I actually thought it was interesting and also believed that he could find answers here.

Well, I am truly sorry for wasting your time.

Salaam,

I have realised that Tbaba is the chief Philosopher here and so, I want to direct a tough question I found online from a troubled young man about the Ummah and Allah to Tbaba;

Khalid:
Do we really worship an almighty God as muslims?
We all know that Allah is Al-Mutakabbir (the supreme) but I am really in doubt of this when I think about the situation we muslims are in today.

We say that our religion is perfect and our God is the almighty but we muslims are being bullied by the West. Our countries invaded for oil, our Prophet mocked and caricatured by Europeans, our brothers referred to as "terrorists" and our sisters ridiculed as "caged ninja women". We are oppressed. Why is Allah not helping us against the non-believers who disrespect us and our religion?

Our countries depend on American and Japanese technology. Saudi Arabia, UAE and other oil rich countries use American systems to drill and refine oil. The sultans and sheiks drive German Mercedes Benzs. We are dependent on the West. We are dominated. An American christian once asked me- "how many muslims have walked on the moon"?

If we are worshiping an almighty God, why are the Ummah so oppressed? Why are we not as technologically advanced as the West? Why are we "backbenchers"?

tbaba1234: Well, the followership comes from the promotion in the media. And 4000 is not much of a followership for the kind of publicity, he gets globally.

What is the strength of those who come for his demonstrations?

I will leave you to your falsehoods and claims that you can't prove.

tbaba1234: ^ He only has that much following because he is promoted in the press.

People follow him to see what crazy thing, he will say next.

And his ability to organise demonstrations? How can he organise demonstrations if he has no significant followership?


Then, you would also have to prove your claim that the most of the 4,000 followers on twitter are there to see the "crazy" things he will say. I have advised you that Islam is against falsehood. The Quran advises us to be careful with our words

tbaba1234: How many followers does anjem choudary have? The press loves the guy so they keep putting him on..... Why can't they get a normal muslim speaker?

Anjem's views are extreme but that is what the press enjoys.

Anjem Choudary, Abu Qatada, Omar Bakri etc (Hate preachers)

Anjem Choudary has over 4,000 followers on twitter. Choudary also has orgnaised some demonstrations. He has significant followership

Salaam,

Tbaba, I am leaving your thread.

I only hope that you have either studied psychology or you are a psychologist since you are talking about modern psychology.


Thank you

tbaba1234:

The thread is beyond freud's ideas. I am sure you could have calmly corrected what you think is a Misconception without the name calling.!
.
You should read what it is saying first.

Salam,

Please, I didnt call you any name. You can look at my comments here. I only disagreed with what you wrote. If I am vexing you, then I will leave your thread.

I know that your thread is beyond Freud's theories but you were still wrong in the part you mentioned Freud.

tbaba1234:

I don't care about your lecturer and freud defined human behaviour from that.

Did he not relate the human behaviour to it?

If I say a muslim should study modern psychology, doesn't it mean he should read the ideas out there or did I speak french?

A muslim believes that the Quran is the absolute word of God so belief in any idea will depend on whether it matches up, if it contradicts the Quran then a muslim will not believe in it .

Salaam,

Sorry if I angered you. You dont have to care for my lecturer.

I think you misunderstood me. Reading a theory is quite different from accepting it. Should a muslim accept Freud's theory and other modern psychological theories?


As for your comment regarding Freud and s.exuality;

The father of modern psychology, Sigmund freud concluded that the core motive of the human being is s.exuality. He defines all human thinking from s.exuality. He says that even when a mother looks at her child, there is lust
involved subconsciously and vice versa.


Here is a decent rebuttal;

There are, he held, an indefinitely large number of such instincts, but these can be reduced to a small number of basic ones, which he grouped into two broad generic categories, Eros (the life instinct), which covers all the self-preserving and erotic instincts, and Thanatos (the death instinct), which covers all the instincts towards aggression, self-destruction, and cruelty. Thus it is a mistake to interpret Freud as asserting that all human actions spring from motivations which are sexual in their origin, since those which derive from Thanatos are not sexually motivated–indeed, Thanatos is the irrational urge to destroy the source of all sexual energy in the annihilation of the self. Having said that, it is undeniably true that Freud gave sexual drives an importance and centrality in human life, human actions, and human behavior which was new (and to many, shocking), arguing as he does that sexual drives exist and can be discerned in children from birth (the theory of infantile sexuality), and that sexual energy (libido) is the single most important motivating force in adult life. However, a crucial qualification has to be added here—Freud effectively redefined the term “sexuality” to make it cover any form of pleasure which is or can be derived from the body. Thus his theory of the instincts or drives is essentially that the human being is energized or driven from birth by the desire to acquire and enhance bodily pleasure.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/freud/


Furthermore, Psychology has evolved. Freud's works have been studied and refined. Take for instance, Oedipus complex which evolutionary psychologists find to be of very little predictive and statistical use in humans. w

sino:

Hold it there bro, what is your aim here? If you see a misconception about freaud's work then point it out and stop being confrontational ain't you a Muslim?

The post is quite insightful, i never read or heard about the oaths being related to the 5 prophets as being presented by the OP, talking about being the best of creation and mentioning the best of mankind especially the Prophet Muhammad(SAW).

I'm not a psychologist, but its an area that interest me, i read about freaud's theory back in the day and didn't have any objection to it, i did see how male children where fond of their mums and females their dad, it looked plausible. The main issue is, is this based on s.exuality at this tender age?

Salaam,

I am sorry, if I came on too confrontational. I had already pointed out where I felt that Tbaba was wrong onFreud before making my comment to you.

Tbaba made the claim that Freud state that the core human motive is s.exuality, which is quite false.

There are other claims in his article but I focused on this one

sino: JazakumuLLAHU khayran bro, this is very insightful, especially relating the oaths to the five prophets(may the Peace and Blessings of Allah be on them all).

You know i never gave a second thought about Freaud's theory, not until now, talking about lowest of low...

I doubt Tbaba has any capacity to really discuss Freud's work.


I shiver at people taking this thread as something insighful

tbaba1234:

Salaam,

On the contrary, I think muslims should study modern psychology. It is a very interesting field and there is plenty of research that needs to be done. This piece addressed theories that exist out there, it is by no means exhaustive.

I feel the Quran has a lot to offer in this field and muslim psychologists should know enough about the Quran so that they can make good research on the Quranic assertions on the human being. As much as humans make effort to understand humans, it is always going to be limited.

As regards freudian psychology, I would encourage you to read freud's stages of psychosexual development. It is one of his most controversial works, he defines human development through s.exuality. He hinges the development of a healthy human being on his psychosexual development.

In the Phallic Stage (ages three to six). Freud believed that during this stage boy develop unconscious s.exual desires for their mother. Because of this, he becomes rivals with his father and sees him as competition for the mother’s affection.

Most people would not define a child's affection for his mother by s.exuality but freud did.

I am sure, you can google the book.

Peace.

Salaam,

You didnt answer my question clearly. Should muslims only read these modern psychological theories? Is it wrong to accept them?

Regarding Freud and sexuality, here was your comment-

The father of modern psychology, Sigmund freud concluded that the core motive of the human being is s.exuality. He defines all human thinking from s.exuality. He says that even when a mother looks at her child, there is lust
involved subconsciously and vice versa.



Are you willing to stand by this statement? I studied psychology and my lecturer loved Freud. He was very clear on this particular misunderstanding of his work when it came to s.exuality.

tpia@:
psychology is not a non-muslim endeavour.

muslims are actually some of the most advanced psychologists there are, regardless of educational level. Only whites have a greater psychological background than muslims, imo.

Thank you for the information. I agree with your point.

My problem is that I feel that Tbaba is trying to say that Islam doesn't agree with modern psychology. I await his response.

Thank you

Salaam,

Tbaba,

I sincerely do not understand the point of your post. Are you really trying to say that no true Muslim can be a modern psychologist or can accept modern psychological theories on the self/human behaviour?

I also think that it is a sin to lie or peddle falsehoods. You have repeated a common falsehood: the claim that Sigmund Freud claimed that the core of human motive is s.exuality. Please, read the Internet encyclopedia of philosophy's entry on Sigmund Freud to see this falsehood addressed.

I await your reply.

Thanks

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