Papparassi:

The facts about Christianity are overwhelmingly true.Jesus Christ existed and preached the gospel.

For which there is no conclusive evidence either way.

Papparassi:

If he did not exist the issue of Da Vinci Code and this outrageous idea of him having a child named ''Sarah'' with Mary Magdalene would never have been an issue.

This is as likely (or unlikely) as anything else in the Bible

Papparassi:

Christianity is all about faith and so as to other religions such as Hindu,Confucianism and others .It boils to down to what you choose to believe.

You really don't choose to believe, you either do or don't. There are certain things you can do though that will make it more likely that you believe in something, but ultimately, belief doesn't involve choice

Papparassi:

But, have you not considered that other religions have something positively unique to say about Jesus Christ.

Is this relevant?

I just find it funny how stupid they are.
the person probably found my IM here on nairaland, didn't even look at who I am and just assumed that I would fall for his/her nonsense
A 1 minute search on google exposed him/her for what she/he is.

Just had someone trying to engage me in a conversation on YIM.
just to warn you all to be careful if you come into contact with a certain Sharon David (sharondavid1900 on YIM)

I'm usually wary if someone I don't know contacts me, so I was first probing a little

Here's the full transcript of our talk (including typo's):

Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:20:54): yep, how are you?
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:21:11): huh
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:21:20): why did it take you the whole day to answer?
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:21:24): lol,
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:22:00): a twork
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:22:20): can't have my undivided attention, sorry
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:23:14): ok
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:23:25): its alright then
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:23:28): so how are you doing today?
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:23:50): ok over here
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:23:59): have we talked before?
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:24:20): not at all
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:24:26): so whats ur asl plz?
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:24:56): 34, male, belgium
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:25:25): ok
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:25:39): so what you do for a living?
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:26:18): project management coaching, training and support at the largest Belgian Bank (Fortis)
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:26:47): oh,your a banker?
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:26:53): what about you?
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:26:57): no not a banker
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:27:14): it doesn't exactly go that way over here in Belgium
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:27:14): i am a banker though
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:27:20): ah you are?
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:27:31): ur nigerian I geuss
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:27:39): found my im at nairaland?
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:27:42): yes i am
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:27:47): yeah
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:27:52): you have a problem with that/
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:28:10): no, should I
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:28:14): Just curious
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:28:16): yeah
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:28:23): at work now?
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:28:36): ok
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:28:45): well,are you married?
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:29:06): yes, 2 kids as well
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:29:29): oh,ok
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:29:59): and you?
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:30:24): well,single
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:30:29): my wife's naija, that's why I'm on nairaland
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:30:43): made a few online friends there
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:30:53): have you been active on nairaland?
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:31:09): yeah
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:31:14): why you ask?
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:31:42): jus like to knoww who I'm talking to
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:31:47): is that strange?
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:32:12): I'm doing 2 things at the same time so there may be a delay in my resonse
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:33:26): ok
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:33:31): under what username are you active on nairaland?
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:33:55): sorry i can't give that out, Okay
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:34:00): bye
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:34:30): why not?
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:34:50): cos your a fool for life
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:34:55): lol
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:34:57):
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:35:05): your ?
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:35:24): I just don't get your reaction
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:35:59): If you see my profile on nairaland, you'll see I'm an open book
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:36:36): thats you, Okay
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:36:47): and you don't expect everyone to be like you either
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:36:49): haven't seen it before?
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:37:03): what do you mean?
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:37:38): You started this conversation
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:37:59): ok
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:38:02): bye
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:38:04): atleast,am ending it
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:38:12): bye

At that moment I was curious as to why he/she broke off the conversation so abruptly, so I quickly googled sharondavid1900

And look what I found: http://www.urgentmessage.org/highlyconfidential/_l54510.html

After that I quickly wrote another IM to sharondavid1900

Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:45:38): seems you're into 419 dear
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:45:47): have to report you to yahoo
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:46:07): have to find another email address

Then waiting for a reply which promptly came:

sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:46:26): YOUR FATHER THERE
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:46:38): YOU ARE VERY STUPID FOR SAYING THAT
(all of that was in a very large font)

So I copied the page I just found (only too the first part):

Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:46:40): =0D Greetings to you,=0D =0D =0D This letter must come to you as a big surprise, but I believe it is only = a day that people meet and become great friends and business partners.My = name is MRS.SHARON DAVID, the present branch Manager of a bank here in Ni= geria West Africa. I write you this proposal in good faith, believing tha= t I can trust you with the information I am about to reveal to you. LikeI= said, I have a transaction that will benefit both of us, as your assista= nce is required as a foreigner.=0D =0D =0D I use to head the Accounts department in my bank head office, but last De= cember I was asked to take position of a Manager of our branch in Lagos w= ho passed on,so that was how I became the present Manager and discovered = a fortune. As I resumed duty, I di

And another pleasant rejoinder from sharondavid1900:

sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:46:41): ASSHOLE
sharondavid1900 (3/05/2007 14:46:45): CRIMINAL LIKE YOU
Niek Feryn (3/05/2007 14:46:53): classic advanced fee fraud

Seun:

As always, I want to remind you guys that I find the very idea of "submission" completely ridiculous and laughable.

It is. In Christianity the same concept goes by another label though, faith.
Maybe our Christian friends could explain an atheist ignoramus how exactly Christian faith differs from Muslim submission, except in their different degrees of irrationality?

stimulus:

It may be argued whichever way - and I know of many current crop of non-theists (and/or atheists) who would easily fail the test.

The test of superior ethics you mean? I have no doubt you can find many unethical jerks among the non-theists. What you should look at however is the overall ethical behaviour of atheists vis-a-vis theists on a proportional basis. I don't think athiest would come out that bad. As a matter of fact, if you would take imprisonment figures as a basis, they come out as far more ethical (or maybe they're just smarter not to get caught)

stimulus:

My point was simply this: I don't think it would be fair to make a broad statement that BOTH the Bible and the Qur'an are far worse in terms of your complaint. And that is why I posed that question earlier.

They are both pretty intolerant towards non believers. If you would go to the organisational counterweight among the non-believers as represented by different secular-humanist organisations, that would imply a far superior ethical stance.
I'll take e.g. the works of Peter Singer over any of the religious books at any time.

stimulus:

f you came across Muhammad and declared yourself an atheist, what do you suppose he would have done to you?

Probably kill me, just as the average pre-enlightenment Christian would have done. During that era I wouldn't have come out as an atheist anyway out of fear for my life.

stimulus:

Insult - is it just that?

With the current crop of Christians it's only that, yes (the dominionists notwithstanding though). We are progressing morally, aren't we

stimulus:
No, I'm not even thinking about how atheists themselves have done the very same thing to theists.

Talking about the persecutions of Stalin and the like are you not? Pray tell me, was it their atheism that motivated them?

stimulus:

Yet, when declaring both the Bible and Qur'an to be "far worse", I'm only concerned at the present moment about the question above. And my concern is borne out of what I know Muhammad is reputed to have done to the atheists he came across.

I don't follow you here. What exactly is your point?

davidylan:

Can you also assure us there are NO verses in the quran that insult christians and jews? Can you assure us there are NO nations on earth where christians and jews are either to be no more than dhimmis or to be killed?

Actually, both the Bible and the Qu'ran are far worse when it comes to atheist. What is somebody like me supposed to? Show respect for those that in their holy scritures never fail to insult me?

davidylan:

Islam means "submission". The submission of one's rights to freedom of expression just to avoid "offending" islam.

I know Islam is far more extreme in that matter, but Christians shouldn't get a free pas either. The anti-intellectualism in the Bible is staggering.

(edited after posting)

Why does a religion, any religion for that matter, deserve respect? they deserve to be tolerated, but respected, no.

Let's put it that way: your religion deserves respect in as much as your opinion that your children are exceptionally intelligent and your spouse is shockingly good looking deserves respect. Common sense dictates that people should not go out of their way to offend people, but never, ever should anyone hold back his or her mind just to prevent hurting someone else's religious feelings.

JustGood:

I have to agree with you

On what basis?

Jen33:

The evidence?

It's been presented to you on this thread. Links have been posted to mountains of evidence of survival of consciousness, which you pretend not to see.

The only evidence you've presented is the overwhelming evidence for the existence of NDE's, not for the survival of the consciousness. I know you like to equate the two, but they're not the same. You're not allowed to define things into existence.

Jen33:

You've presented precious little yourself apart from puerile name-dropping and glib references to ketamine and Susan Blackmore, whose arguments were destroyed in one of the links I presented, which u no doubt ignored.

1. I really wouldn't need to present evidence, as it's your case to make, but, contrary to what you say, those two references come from published, peer reviewed research in reputable publications. You only seem to be able to find references to journals like the Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research
2. Susan Blackmore's arguments were not destroyed at all. The critique by Greg Stone was full of logical, methodological and epistemological errors. He constantly falls in the trap of the most common logical phalacy, namely assuming the consequent, something you seem to have a knack for yourself.

Jen33:

I can't imagine your future state of distress and possible shock, when, upon your passing, you find that you're not really dead.

Assuming the consequent, that's what I was talking about, wasn't I?

Jen33:

Only then will a person like you get the ''evidence'' you demand.

Clearly you rants against religion are empty, as you dare not apply the same rigorous dissection of your own belief system, but who should be surprised, it's like watching Muslims and Christians in a catfight.

Jen33:

Nothing else will suffice in your instance, and that's ok too.

Have you ever wondered how closely your line of reasoning mimics that of the Christians you so much like to criticise?

spoilt:

@ nferyn

who are those demeaning him? that would be the joke of the century. if they knew what nairaland was worth i bet they would have not just a fit, but a foaming fit!

They've already been erased from our collective consciousness, or to put it more prosaically, their posts have been deleted.

I'm going to start in my usual 'quoting' mode, but I think that goodguy's contribution is worth it.

goodguy:

Hmmm. . . now you guys remind me of the good ol' days. The days of Layi, vexxy, Ijebuman, chrisd, nicetohave, Alheri, IAH, et al. One thing to note here however is that not all of them left (or became inactive) because of Seun. e.g. vexxy.

I would definitely not ascribe all people leaving to Seun's actions, although he did contribute to the fact that many of them did leave.

goodguy:

While it is true that Seun contributed in a way to the present state of this forum (disabling PM, banning unnecessarily, etc.), it is also important to note that Seun does not constitute Nairaland alone, as as such, cannot and should not be held solely responsible for its current state.

By no means is he solely responsible. He probably did much steering behind the screen to ensure that the forum didn't descend it total anarchy

goodguy:

I onced used to complain and whine a lot about how he administered this forum, then one day, he gave me a reply:

"Create a forum of your own, and when you have up to 20 thousand members, come back to tell me how it is being the Admin". (not verbatim).

Then, we were only about 20,000 on this forum or thereabout. Ever since, I started putting myself in his shoes.

Maybe, but things like changing usernames (e.g. DaHitler) to punish offenders isn't really the way to best administer the forum.

goodguy:

His point there, I believe, was that it was (an still is) difficult to administer a forum with all kinds of people from all walks of life at the same place, and at the same time.

No doubt, and he deserves our admiration for that. What is less admiring though is the capricious manner in which he sometimes uses his administrative powers. While there are understandable mistakes, the least you could expect in such a case is an apology for such a slip. I have no doubt that most of these administrative actions are well deserved, but the saying goes that from whom much is given, much is is expected.

goodguy:

Sometimes, one gets so frustrated that one takes some actions without forethought. And to be honest, the attitudes of most members here are so appalling, to say the least.

It's not about the understandable slips in judgement, but about the way they are dealt with afterwards.

goodguy:

Another thing to note here is that this forum is Seun's personal business. It is one of his major (if not the major) sources of livelihood, and such, he must maintain it to the fullest in order to achieve that "world-class" forum that he so much yearns for. I once read a post of his, where he said, "I want this forum to be as professional as possible. I want readers to read posts like they're reading a newspaper. . ." (not verbatim either). That was in regards to editing people's posts. Honestly, I wouldn't blame him for doing so.

An 'automatic' email when such a thing occurs would go a long way. There is a downward tendency visible lately regarding the quality of the posts, maybe more editing has become necessary now

goodguy:

If you follow the rules well enough, I don't think he will edit your post for any reasons. Throughout my almost 2 years of membership on Nairaland, I can't recall a single time Seun ever edited any of my over 6000 posts, though he has deleted countless of them for reasons I totally understand.

I get your point, we all take questionable actions at one time or another, but then again, that doesn't only apply to the simple users, does it?

goodguy:

And on this note, I appeal to reasonable folks here to please stop referring to Seun as a college drop-out, condescendingly.

You are absolutely right here. Very few people are capable of accomplishing what Seun has with this forum and anyone demeaning him for such trivial reasons is a jack-ass.

goodguy:

Do you honestly think he's happy being a college drop-out? As far as I am concerned, he is far more intelligent than majority of the so-called graduates on this forum. On my list of intelligent Nairalanders, Seun will always be in the top 10. So please, stop all these demeaning comments, as they are totally unnecessary.

I didn't even know that was the case and nobody would ever know from his write-ups. He's witty and intellectually stimulating.

goodguy:

Furthermore, we should all realise that people have always left, and many more will still leave. The number of people joining Nairaland everyday are far more than those that leave in 3 months.

Yes, but all the ones I spoke to were pretty clear about what caused them to leave, and it isn't the natural flow of things.

goodguy:

Around earlier last year to mid last year, this forum was completely boring for me, due the numerous teenagers that filled the whole forum and spammed every single topic at the slightest opportunity. My addiction to Nairaland was almost reduced to naught. Fortunately, they all seemed to vanish in a single night.

Is it hurricane Eve, you're referring to?

goodguy:

For me, that was a breath of fresh air. I started frequenting the forum once again, and to be fair and unbiased, there have been many more intelligent folks here than we had in the past (due to the population of course).

No doubt, but usually, their passing is only temporary

goodguy:

Moreso, I will like to say that I completely agree with Pain here. Nairaland is a world of its own, where we have the good, the bad, and of course, the ugly. We all cannot be the same. Our variations are what makes the forum interesting (at least, for me). In every community, there will always be the troublemakers, the peacemakers, and the onlookers. We'll always have the intellectuals, the morons, and the mediocres.

Your point?

goodguy:

For this reason, I hereby appeal to the "Intellectuals" among us, to please accommodate the "Morons" and "Intellectually challenged". Hopefully, they'll learn a whole lot from you guys.

There's no shame in being ignorant, we all were at some time and we all are regarding most things. There's plenty of shame though in empty intellectual grandstanding. People messing up interesting threads with vacuous opinions and actually proudly wearing their badges of ignorance is a real turn-off to me.

goodguy:

On a final note, I will like to say a big THANK YOU to Seun for creating a site as invaluable as this. Nairaland has helped me in numerous ways, and has greatly affected my life positively. Of course, I owe that to the vast majority of the intellectuals on this forum, including one of my greatest antagonists, davidylan. But a big part of my gratitude goes to the Admin for putting us all together.

Cheers.

Good to finish on a positive note. I - almost - agree with you
Seun, I truly appreciate your efforts in creating Nairaland, if only you could listen to some friendly advice once in a while as well, that would make it even better.

pilgrim.1:

@nferyn,

To be honest with you, even after leaving Islam, there are tons of issues that I don't understand, and can never understand. What I do know is that no honest Muslim can fault Hirsi Ali's carefully researched work.

They can't fault her work, yet they still consider her to be game during hunting season. How can anyone ever liver with him/herself following such a way of thinking.

pilgrim.1:

However, in any "liberal" society, Islam by default was designed to murder "unbels" (the infidels in Muslim thought and theology). The reason why no arrests are likely to be made is thanks to the well-known Islamic LAW of Qisas that guarantees Muslims go scotfree after perpetrating mordacious and heinous acts. You may follow a bit of this concept already referenced here:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46741.384.html#msg1079967

Actually, the murderer was arrested and convicted. Luckily the Netherlands doesn't follow sharia. It makes me understand the passive tolerance of the muslims in Europe regarding the Jihadists in their midst.
What they don't seem to realise is that this attitude is going to come back to them with a vengeance. Europe has reached a point in it's history where it embraces liberal democracy as one of it's one of it's core values. If the radical muslims in Europe don't change their tune, Europe may very well slip back into it's old habits. I dread the moment where there would be a real confrontation, because there is no way the muslims could hold back the European beast once it's unleashed. It took us Europeans two very bloody world wars to come to our senses.

pilgrim.1:

Until now, one may never suppose to know ANYTHING about Islam. Even if your clear reasoning conveys honest assessment of any situation in Muhammad's religion and book, you will ALWAYS meet with denials and double-speak. Why? Again, another verse that not many people know about is what the Ulema (Muslim scholars who interpret the tenets of Islam) hold onto for their avowed rejection of non-muslim reasoning:

Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 25, Number 3644:
Narrated Jundub: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If anyone interprets the Book of Allah in the light of his opinion even if he is right, he has erred.

Absolutely unbelievable. Islam is even far worse than Christianity in that regard.

pilgrim.1:

So, be sure that if you see "SLAY THEM" in the Qur'an 2:191, no Muslim will agree with you that the word "SLAY" means "SLAY" - because even though you are "right", you are bound to be in "error" for being a non-muslim.

Damned if you don't , damned if you do. There's no way to escape this dilemma of intellectual dishonesty.

pilgrim.1:

If you doubt me, wait for the typical Muslim reaction following this. I know because I was once there.

I'm eagerly waiting.

What baffled me were the completely disproportionate reactions to her film Submission. The director of the film Theo Van Gogh got shot, stabbed several times. After the last stab, the killer left a note with a death threat to Hirsi Ali stabbed to his chest. All of this happened in broad daylight in the 'liberal' Amsterdam. And then hardly any Muslim came out to condemn the murder.
Why don't the muslims go out to fight the lunatics in their midst instead of preaching that Islam is a religion of peace.

There's another troll. Why don't you try to find a rock to crawl under?

What do you think about the fact that she clearly states that the subservient role of women in Islam is ordained by the prophet and that the abuse those women receive are part and parcel of Islam.

GeeCee:

I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is.

What if the God you find isn't yours but e.g. Ra (unless of course you do believe in Ra )?

sisimose:

i wont ever attempt to convince you to join my faith, my faith is personal and precious to me, call it selfish but i don't believe in ramming the faith in people's ears

You have exactly the same attitude as my wife to these things. Much respect.
As for me, I despise proselitism and the normalisation of religious faith as if the non-religious are some kind of freaks.

sisimose:

100% agree with you. All you see is abuse, fights, swearing . You can never have a discussion without people being personal. It is shameful and really sickening. But wait, you think they all teens? nah nah nah , some are over twenty and look way older than me yet they act all child like. Its a joke

You may be right. What I find most sad is that the sense of community is really gone and there are only a few people left with whom to have a challenging discussion. It's like in the beginning (I'm thinking about 2005 here) we all chatted among each other. Once Seun cut off the message functionalty, that initial spirit was gone. Shame you weren't here during that time.

dayokanu:

David if you and other leave, just tell me on which website to meet our old friends to start challenging discussions again. This Nairaland is actually turning to a secondary school dormitory.

The problem right now is that those teens are messing up serious discussions with their brain dead interjections. Maybe some people should pass an IQ test before posting in certain subforums

has anyone read Infidel [/i]by[i] Ayaan hirsi Ali.
I'm especially interested in the reactions and observations of the nairaland muslims.

Bolarge:

Would u blame him or anyone else at that?
Your profile says u're just 'bout 4mths old on this forum ^{(no disrespect intended trust me)} so u're not likely to fully appreciate the gross disparity between what was n'what presently obtains in the forum.I am barely a year old myself and find the trend pretty disturbing.I can only imagine how those who've been around much longer would feel.
Really miss the intellectually stimulating n'challenging topics and contributions. . .
Now I make do with a few laughs here n'there.

You're bang on with that observation. When I just joined (august 05), this forum was the most invigorating thing I encountered on line (and I've been on the net for about 14 years), now it's just one of the many places where teenage kids run the show. There's hardly any more depth to the subjects and most of the interesting people have gone. You don't find people like like Ijebuman, Cinani, layi or Vexxy anymore on nairaland. Either they left in disgust or have been banned by the postmaster supreme, the yielder of the big stick.
I wouldn't say that it's all Seun's fault, some of it was bound to happen, but his capricious actions certainly didn't help things either

spoilt:

anytime nferyn. keep the pics coming. i feel like i know you guys already.
im thinking of posting pics of my family too. i have to revamp my face first though. (im kidding!)

Yeah right, I guess that's why you put a Lara Croft picture in your profile
I'm just guessing, but it probably doesn't have anything to do with a need for revamping.

And this one's a few weeks old

Here are 2 more recent pictures. This one's from yesterday.

Jen33:

Because their mental modes include those entities to start with.

Not always. Some experiencers have reported meeting relatives they'd NEVER MET on earth, such as great grandfathers, great aunts etc etc. Only to return to this life and have their identities confirmed by other relatives.

There is no incidence of any of these experiences to include information they couldn't have come up with

Jen33:

How do your mysterious 'mental modules' produce such an astonishing outcome?

How credulous can one be? through suggestive interviewing techniques. Ever hear of the so-called satanic abuses psychiatrists uncovered or the alien abduction stories. You might want to read the Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan, it will go a long way of peeling the shells of credulity from your eyes.

Jen33:

Sorry but this is a highly unsatisfactory attempt at explaining the NDE phenomenon. Mere saying that ketamine is released owing to oxygen shortage does not negate the reality of the experience. It's like someone saying you're not really hungry. What you're feeling is merely a 'chemical imbalance' caused by lack of food to your guts. While there may indeed be such an imbalance, it does not obviate the reality of the situation ie, that you were hungry.

Playing semantic games, are we?
Apart from the stories, there is no independent confirmation of the truth of these experiences, while the hunger is real in many different senses. If you stop eating, you will die.

Jen33:

Comprende?

The NDE experience cannot be explained by mere allusion to a physical manifestation of distress in blatant disregard of further realities reported by the experiencer.

Defining things into existence, are we? Where's the evidence of these realities?

Jen33:

This is true, but does not obviate the reality of the experience. The Being of Light encountered by many an experiencer does not announce himself as Jesus or Buddha or Horus or Ifa. It is the experiencer that labels the Being based on his/her earthly religious persuasion.

Exactly, and atheists don't give any divine interpretation to that 'being of light' when they undergo a NDE. What does that tell you?

Jen33:

But ALL experiencers have described SIMILAR sensations of Unconditional Love and Acceptance issuing from the person of this Being.

Something that can be invoked by administering ketamine. Do learn a little bit about the working of the brain before you draw unwarranted conclusions. Maybe you can read some Pinker.

Jen33:

Again, I'm at a loss as to how a dying brain's last throes could 'chemically' fashion out such wondrous, momentous realities identified by virtually ALL Near Death experiencers.

These are exactly the kind of memories that are made up and become more and more detailed as time passes; Concerning those coming back with scientific knowledge they didn't have before, I need to see some evidence that it doesn't come from elsewhere. People are way too credulous.

Ah. So they are lying then? Making things up.

Lying, no, because they don't have the intention to deceive. Making things up, definitely.

Jen33:

But WHY would a man that just suffered serious trauma like heart attack or cancer return from clinically certified death to 'make things up'?

Because they did have some profound experience and without the mental mode whereby the self is in control over it's body as far as the senses is concerned, they interprete that experience using their existing memeplexes. Besides, why is not really a relevant question, because they're no ultimate reason for that experience

Jen33:

Ever asked yourself that question?

Yes, but I know that's the wrong question to ask.

Jen33:

Then ask yourself why THOUSANDS of trauma victims would follow suit and ''make things up''.

You take incredulity to new, preposterous heights.

Pot, kettle anyone?

Jen33:

If you go through such an experience, it will affect you, regardless of what the ultimate cause of the experience is. Maybe we should all go through such an experience, if only to rid ourselves from the shackles of religion

Oh of course it wll 'affect' you - but WHY in the manner it does them? WHY does the experience engender greater spirituality for instance, or end the fear of death? I would think it takes FAR MORE than some random chemical reaction to induce such radical, near - uniform, and apparently permanent personality alterations.

Personal incredulity is the answer, then? Maybe, you can read up on the works of Susan Blackmore, who investigated NDE's scientifically, very much in opposition to the 'believers'.

Jen33:

Prove? Why? My explanation is far more parsimonious than yours, thus it is objectively more credible.

It takes the most astounding arrogance to arrogate to yourself an ''explanation'' that flies in the face of the reported experiences of millions of people, even more unforgivable to relegate their accounts to the status of mere tales lacking in 'objectivity'.

Once more, I don't deny their experiences, I question the explanations given to them. If their realities are anything more than a result of their brainstates, then there also must be some supporting evidence thereof from different sources. There is none.
If LSD can make one hallucinate, why wouldn't a profound altering of the brain states, caused by a NDE not be able to do the same thing? You just bring in unevidenced entities without any sound reason.

Jen33:

The universe doesn't owe us meaning or an explantion. It's not because you have an emotional need for meaning that there is ultimate meaning.

The search for meaning is not an emotional one - unless you're referring to religion.

More of an intellectual one. And if ND experiencers can make meaning of their experience, it becomes illogical for you to reject their accounts based on your prejudices with regard to the supposed inacessibility of 'ultimate meaning'.

OK, why don't you bring your first piece of undeniable evidence for that spirit world and I will start listening. There's nothing illogical in my approach. You assume that the universe owes you meaning and presuppose it in those NDE's, rejecting a merely materialistic explanation of the same phenomenon on emotional grounds, because it lacks 'meaning'.

Jen33:

I am of the belief that we are also containers for an immortal soul or consciousness that is capable of existing independently of the human coat - whose function is to act as a container for the human soul on the earth plane.

It's merely faith, i.e. belief without evidence. it's no better than the explanations from the religious creed. You're tied up in naive essentialism.

Jen33:

This is a belief that is shared by all the millions of people who have had a near-death experience. Your beliefs are based on the skeptical regurgitations of people who have NOT had anything resembling such an experience.

Argumentam ad populum. Try again. And do read the research of Susan Blackmore, she did have such an experience but didn't jump to unwarranted conclusions.

Jen33:

All experiences are merely chemically induced hallucinations, all of them. Some however have more resemblance to reality than others and that resemblance has nothing to do with how real they feel, but rather with the context of these experiences.

Ok, I know what you're driving at here. All matter is illusion as all we're doing is interpretating electro-magnetic waves which appear to us as 'solid' objects.

But again, reality in the afterlife, is - as on earth - what is perceived to be real by the observer. .

Is it now? Maybe you can start a new branch of philosophy, using imaginary logic as well

Jen33:

And many Experiencers have said that the reality of the NDE is of a far higher order and poignancy than what we can ever experience on the earth plane.

It has been described as similar to waking from a dream - the dream being the earth plane existence.

So, and?

Jen33:

Again, we have to look to their accounts for what the situation is, and if they don't fit into your inherited paradigms, it's no one's fault but YOURS!

But, contrary to my paradigms, yours are completely unfalisfiable and scientifically utterly useless

Jen33:

You simply need to jettison your ideas regarding what u suppose to be the limits of reality.

They've been made redundant by new realities, if u excuse the pun.

Where's the evidence, my dear, the evidence?