Redman44:

Fellow Nairalanders, I deeply believe free, fair and credible elections can be held in Nigeria. We don't have to give up hope. I just read read Reuben Abati's article about his trip through Northern Nigeria. It is on The Guardian website. Nigeria is a great country. It is the hatred of change by most citizens of the country that is holding our progress back. We need to change our mentality that always believes positive things cannot happen. Cheers.

The hatred of change by most citizens of the country that is holding our progress back?  We need to change our mentality that always believes positive things cannot happen? Are you sure that is a solution here, fellow? I mean we have already labeled the “happiest” people on the planet. Add to that the fact that we are about the most “Religious” on the planet.

How much more “positive” do we need to get in order to see Change become reality? If positive thinking were high on the list, how come other countries where the people are not necessarily the happiest, and hence not the most positive, seem to be doing pretty well for themselves? 

Sky Blue:

That is why I brought the whole issue of the media playing a part and the fact that is CCTV means live streaming is possible and it is hence possible to catch images of people disconnecting cctvs before they do so. I don’t want to get into the whole technicality of it because this is not the intent of this thread however CCTVs aren’t just erected or thrown in any how, they are normally carefully networked so that things like successfully disconnecting cameras without your image being caught on camera and streamed to monitors are made more difficult than you might presume.

I don’t know whether it is necessary to inform people on here that they are the change or any of that, such rhetoric has been posted en masse on this forum already, yeah we know we are the change, etc. However what does being “the change” mean if we are not willing to work towards solutions to changing things or if we are not willing to work at all but rather sit in comfort knowing that “we are the change”? Such rhetoric isn’t new, it is like someone else coming to give another “the problem with Nigeria” speech as if we don’t know the problems. Correct me if I am wrong but the poster was looking for ideas.

I have not got time to bore people with rhetoric, you must not resort to cheap shots and get all defensive about my constructive comments otherwise we'll end up exemplifying the current problem. You mentioned cctv and I made a comment about it, if its petty why mention it at all? I emphasized the fact that the solution is more than tinkering. I have mentioned the change I am talking about twice, so the fact that you are asking: "what does being “the change” mean " shows you did not read my post in its entirety.

linxon:

I have not got time to bore people with rhetoric, you must not resort to cheap shots and get all defensive about my constructive comments otherwise we'll end up exemplifying the current problem. You mentioned cctv and I made a comment about it, if its petty why mention it at all? I emphasized the fact that the solution is more than tinkering. I have mentioned the change I am talking about twice, so the fact that you are asking: "what does being “the change” mean " shows you did not read my post in its entirety.

No need to worry about our discourse degenerating into petty arguments and fights, I don’t do such, don’t partake in such and exclude myself from such conversations. If you feel I am being defensive over the CCTV thing as opposed to simply elaborating what I meant as a response to a statement you made which felt generalised then there is nothing I can do about it. However, I presented a case of what I meant, highlighting that the issue of monitoring is a major facet to the “elections in Nigeria conundrum”.

With regards to what you might term a “petty shot”, I did read your post in its entirety and I was responding to not just the quote you used at the end but the rest of it. The poster was calling for Ideas on how to run credible elections in Nigeria, I was just pointing out that such seemed to be the focus of the thread and that the premise of citizenry development, participation, etc, has been discussed en masse, I was simply making an observation, any problem with that?

@blacksta, your ideas are quite interesting however seem like factors to consider and develop for the long term. However, if you were asked to run the next elections then what steps would you deem necessary? It just seems like we have all accepted that the 2011 elections are doomed and we should be looking for fair elections for 2050, I however don’t buy that.

Sky Blue:

No need to worry about our discourse degenerating into petty arguments and fights, I don’t do such, don’t partake in such and exclude myself from such conversations. If you feel I am being defensive over the CCTV thing as opposed to simply elaborating what I meant as a response to a statement you made which felt generalised then there is nothing I can do about it. However, I presented a case of what I meant, highlighting that the issue of monitoring is a major facet to the “elections in Nigeria conundrum”.

With regards to what you might term a “petty shot”, I did read your post in its entirety and I was responding to not just the quote you used at the end but the rest of it. The poster was calling for Ideas of how to run elections, I was just pointing out that such seemed to be the focus of the thread and that the premise of citizenry development, participation, etc has been discussed en masse, I was simply making an observation, any problem with that?

@blacksta, your ideas are quite interesting however seem like factors to consider and develop for the long term. However, if you were asked to run the next elections then what steps would you deem necessary? It just seems like we have all accepted that the 2011 elections are doomed and we should be looking for fair elections for 2050, I however don’t buy that.

Yeah I've got a problem with that I said "Cheap shot" not “petty shot” - JOKE!
Since we have found some common ground, my point was although he wanted solutions I belive that such measures will always be sabotaged by corrupt leaders. some of my sggestions would be:

1. Hold a referendum on a vetting system for candidates

2. As you mentioned live streaming of the vote count; with any disruption to the transmission leading to the votes being recasted.

3. finger printing

4. International observers

5. A cap on campaign funds

If i were the next  chairman -  Having concurrent elections in Nigeria is obviously not working.  I would immediately adopt staggered elections approach with the focus of two states per day. Hopefully the electoral laws should allows this.  involving all stakeholders, media and all civil liberties group. An election in a state will have to be concluded before moving to another state.

There are so many good ideas to reform our election.

The problem is lack of political will.

Maybe there needs to be some kind of chaos so that every stakeholder PDP or non-PDP appreciates the need for reform.

We have nutured this nascent democracy too much, I think maybe a little bit of chaos and bloodshed might do the trick . . . . . .

or may be an anonymous warning from the Army to the politicians to sit up.

This is exactly how Shagari led this country into another Military dictatorship

linxon:

Yeah I've got a problem with that I said "Cheap shot" not “petty shot” - JOKE!
Since we have found some common ground, my point was although he wanted solutions I belive that such measures will always be sabotaged by corrupt leaders. some of my sggestions would be:

1. Hold a referendum on a vetting system for candidates

2. As you mentioned live streaming of the vote count; with any disruption to the transmission leading to the votes being recasted.

3. finger printing

4. International observers

5. A cap on campaign funds

Do you mind elaborating on your first point? Like @chidichris stated, the power to appoint electoral officials needs to be removed from the hands of the president, it would make more sense to place such a responsibility on the house of assembly. The sad thing is that some of these points are quite obvious that suggesting them even seems patronising and self indulgent, the issue is finding a way to bring the issue to be discussed vocally by everyone (especially the media) in Nigeria to a point whereby pressure can be put on whoever pressure needs to be put on so that such things are implemented. One thing seems sure though, the current INEC set up is simply not working.

As for me, I am all for the ideas of getting elections in Nigeria right even if the elections have to take a month to be conducted. This issue just needs to be gotten out of the way; we just need one free and fair election, just one to build on even achieving such would mean a crude “one for me, one for you” style counting of the votes. Nothing else will do if not the issue of free and fair elections would continue to be comfortably postponed and procrastinated like some work you know you have to do but don’t really want to do it while you complain you have work to do.

Sky Blue:

The sad thing is that some of these points are quite obvious that suggesting them even seems patronising and self indulgent

Sorry, whats that about?

linxon:

Sorry, whats that about?

Meaning some of the ideas postulated although sensible, are quite obvious and perhaps so obvious that stating them would be as patronising as saying don't forget to eat to stay alive, hence perhaps highlighting what @mikeansy was talking about (i.e. lack of actual will to implement such ideas). Do you understand what I meant now?

Sky Blue:

The sad thing is that some of these points are quite obvious that suggesting them even seems patronising and self indulgent,

This is what I mean by a cheap shot, do you not think that saying the media should be responsible and installing CCTV is not obvious! Its pathetic!

The whole point is that the Nigerian government is corrupt you are asking for solutions that do not exist, Now I'll tell you what is sad, what is sad is that the election in 2011 will be rigged for fun and no amount of CCTV and tanks or other desperate measures can stop that!

The problem is with the people, what has government got to do with it? It is the people, the politicians who employ people to fight for them, the politicians who uses thugs, the politicians who will do it in a do or die affair, it is with the politicians and majority of the people who can have their conscience bought by these few rich politicians.

I hope I am not the only one to see this !!!  Salvation is truly nigh!!! roflmao!!   

tombola:

The problem is with the people, what has government got to do with it? It is the people, the politicians who employ people to fight for them, the politicians who uses thugs, the politicians who will do it in a do or die affair, it is with the politicians and majority of the people who can have their conscience bought by these few rich politicians.

Permit me to use your post as an example of what I was referring to earlier. If politicians offer people food and money to vote for them and the people take such items and go and vote for the politicans who iffered them money (even if in ideal elections no one should know if they infact took the food and voted for someone else instead) does that mean the elections were unfair? Sorry but I beg to differ, elections is about people exercising their power to choose, if someone chooses what might seem sacrificing long term substantial development for short term satisfaction then guess what, they have chosen and that is their choice. Elections don't guarantee that the "right man" gets in, it guarantees that people choose and their votes count. That was the reason why I was trying to avoid long debates of citizenry empowerement, etc. Such things are obviously important for the overall democracy and for ensuring "better" leaders get a chance to be voted for. However if we are strictly speaking of elections, its simply a choice issue, hence the reason why I disagree with @linxon, I do believe peculiar solutions to "elections in Nigeria" are obtainable.

As i said i earlier  - until we have other alternative ways of making money, political positions will be the desired route.  It is just to attractive.

blacksta:

As i said i earlier  - until we have other alternative ways of making money, political positions will carrying on being the desired route.  It is just to attractive.

I concur and perhaps that is part of the solution to free and fair elections in Nigeria.

Sky Blue:

I concur and perhaps that is part of the solution to free and fair elections in Nigeria.

That is what I said an Hour ago! you did not concur then did you?

blacksta:

As i said i earlier  - until we have other alternative ways of making money, political positions will be the desired route.  It is just to attractive.

That I belive is the root of the problem, it should be credible candidates sponsored to serve the nation.

linxon:

That is what I said an Hour ago! you did not concur then did you?

LOL, I did not necessarily disagree with your whole post, it had good points and all I did was respond on the basis of where I perceived it was all generally going. I did not completely agree with the last paragraph about it being a matter of simply waiting for the secondary or even tertiary pary of the industrial sector to develop and hence prove more viable before we begin to get some democracy. I disagree because government positions in America and Europe are also quite attractive and come with a lot of perks, yet you don't see the ammount of insensitive gross corrupt practices at the rates you see in Nigeria. The single sentence @blacksta posted, I simply agree with. Clearer now?

Anyway, as nice as the intent of this thread is, it would be more meaningful if the discussion could be carried out beyond the internet and by more Nigerians in Nigeria and abroad at a larger scale because this is a serious issue hence it will be a shame if it just ends here. Perhaps such wil lead to actions in varying degrees that can help remedy the situation even if it me ans succesfully conducting a local government election.

tombola:

The problem is with the people, what has government got to do with it? It is the people, the politicians who employ people to fight for them, the politicians who uses thugs, the politicians who will do it in a do or die affair, it is with the politicians and majority of the people who can have their conscience bought by these few rich politicians.

Not the people my dear, it is the system. If you want political thugs in USA, ENGLAND or anywhere in the world,  it can be acquired.

blacksta:

As i said i earlier  - until we have other alternative ways of making money, political positions will be the desired route.  It is just to attractive.

what are u talking about?

yeswecan:

Not the people my dear, it is the system. If you want political thugs in USA, ENGLAND or anywhere in the world,  it can be acquired.

what are u talking about?

What exactly is wrong with the system? Can you just give me some specifics on what you think is currently wrong with the SYSTEM, not the politicians or how they choose to run it, but the very SYSTEM itself?

there is no distinguishing between the 'system' and the politicians. The way things are run is what is termed 'system' - in that regard you cannot separat the individuals from the system.

I happen to believe that the politicians, and the people make up the system in a democracy. So when someone says the politicians alone make up the system then I want to understand what sort of system the person is speaking of.

Sky Blue:

LOL, I did not necessarily disagree with your whole post, it had good points and all I did was respond on the basis of where I perceived it was all generally going. I did not completely agree with the last paragraph about it being a matter of simply waiting for the secondary or even tertiary pary of the industrial sector to develop and hence prove more viable before we begin to get some democracy. I disagree because government positions in America and Europe are also quite attractive and come with a lot of perks, yet you don't see the ammount of insensitive gross corrupt practices at the rates you see in Nigeria. The single sentence @blacksta posted, I simply agree with. Clearer now?

Anyway, as nice as the intent of this thread is, it would be more meaningful if the discussion could be carried out beyond the internet and by more Nigerians in Nigeria and abroad at a larger scale because this is a serious issue hence it will be a shame if it just ends here. Perhaps such wil lead to actions in varying degrees that can help remedy the situation even if it me ans succesfully conducting a local government election.

Okay, now you have read my post before responding, phew! I will re-iterate that you're attempt at an essay about CCTV, keeping balot boxes static and making sure the media behave was ridiculously poor and lacked substance.

The leaders (Politicians) determine the system, so they cannot be separated from it. they are the system. The system is the politics as well as the policies.

linxon:

Okay, now you have read my post before responding, phew! I will re-iterate that you're attempt at an essay about CCTV, keeping balot boxes static and making sure the media behave was ridiculously poor and lacked substance.

And it is perfectly ok and fine with me that you think my suggestions were poor and lacked substance, I on the other hand thought the post in which you simply stated your ideas for solutions was quite sensible and I concur with most of the points on there. My issue was with your earlier was the last paragraph and the fact that it seemed to be bothering on one of those posts which while eloquent always seemed vague and full of rhetoric. It is ok for us to disagree.

yeswecan:

The leaders (Politicians) determine the system, so they cannot be separated from it. they are the system. The system is the politics as well as the policies.

Why do they (Politicians) determine the system in a DEMOCRACY? I mean if we were still on millitary rule, sure, but DEMOCRACY? Where are the people in this? Why is mention of the people absent from your definition of the "SYSTEM"? Whose fault is it?

Your question “Whose fault is it” can be seen from different angles. There is a problem with the formation as well as the foundation of our state.

It is very easy to put the blame on the citizens or a collective individual. But a terrible mistake was made from the beginning. The mistake made by the British cannot be overlooked, Please remember we have over 300 ethnic groups in this country.

I know where you are driving at

Sky Blue:

And it is perfectly ok and fine with me that you think my suggestions were poor and lacked substance, I on the other hand thought the post in which you simply stated your ideas for solutions was quite sensible and I concur with most of the points on there. My issue was with your earlier was the last paragraph and the fact that it seemed to be bothering on one of those posts which while eloquent always seemed vague and full of rhetoric. It is ok for us to disagree.

You ended your very first post with:
"Or do we all prefer the alternative of more wasted years of crying electoral fraud and using it as an excuse for underdevelopment?"

I ended the post you are talking about with (if I remeber correctly): "Since most on this board like President Obama, remeber he said 'You are the solution'"
Now, this referred to the fact that Americans can solve their own problems collectively and no person should feel excluded. Now I am not a political scientist like you I am a Computer Scientist, so I cannot be bothered to explain every point in detail I expect my fellow inteligent Nairalanders to read between the lines sometimes. My main point was all our creative ideas will probably go to waste with the current political system - it needs to be changed completely before we can come up with NEW ideas that will be IMPLEMENTED. On reflection, some of the points I listed (finger printing, International observers, A cap on campaign funds) may have been quite obvious but this reflected my "why bother with them" attitude.

Finally, whilst there is more corruption in the west than there is Africa, African politicians are corrupt beyond what their nation can afford. What I have gathered from your posts is that you are saying you will not give up with that corrupt cabal and if anyone has some "fresh" ideas that WILL NOT BE IMPLEMENTED they should type their soul away, well lets agree to disagree on that one.

yeswecan:

Your question “Whose fault is it” can be seen from different angles. There is a problem with the formation as well as the foundation of our state.

What has foundation of our state to do with the current SYSTEM of GOVERNMENT?

yeswecan:

It is very easy to put the blame on the citizens or a collective individual.

I never said anything about putting the blame on anyone here. I simply asked you questions so as to extract information from you here.

yeswecan:

But a terrible mistake was made from the beginning. The mistake made by the British cannot be overlooked, Please remember we have over 300 ethnic groups in this country.
I know where you are driving at

Am I to understand that the British are now the reason why the people of Nigeria are not a part of your take on the democratic system in Nigeria? You men the British were there when Obasanjo took office back some 10 years ago?

I don’t think you understand what I am getting at here. You seem to be all over the place and I am simply trying to get you to focus on the current state of things under the current system of government, and hopeful help you better identify the problems that we likely have with elections, as opposed to the general issues we have as a country and as a people, especially with our perception of our past and what not.

@Kobojunkie

You're entitled to your opinions. We need to take this thread beyond the internet. One of the first obstacles to real development in Nigeria is the mentality of the Nigerian people. I know what I'm saying. We can discuss and proffer ideas on how to hold credible elections in Nigeria for ages, but nothing will be achieved if the way of thinking of most Nigerians is not changed. We need to work hard to ensure that credible elections are held in the country. The solution lies with all of us.

Let me give you an example of how we can change things in Nigeria if we can just try. Sometime in 2207, my church held its Annual Youth Weekend. I attend one of the Parishes of RCCG.  I had just come back from a trip to Britain. There was no substantive Youth leader on ground, and I was not willing to become the Youth President because I knew I would be travelling out again. Anyway, the onus fell on me to organize the program. I spent a lot of time developing ideas into reality. Many of the youths and teenagers were not willing to help out. I found out that they just did not know what to do. I had to type letters myself and take it to the Guest Speakers for the Seminar Program which was held on the Saturday of the Youth Weekend. My job was made easy because I had a Laptop. The church did not give us money for the Program. We had to raise money among ourselves and from the Matron of the Youths Fellowship. God helped us out gretaly. It was when it was clear that the 4 day event will be successful, that many youths started coming on board. I really taxed myself intellectually and financially to carry our plans out.  To cut the long story short, the program was hugely successful. You need to see the joy on the faces of the youths after the event. One of the outcomes of the 2007 Youth Weekend was that my Parish has become an Area Parish of RCCG.

If we can all take up the gauntlet and start taking the destiny of Nigeria into our hands, things will change. We need to stop being armchair critics. People will always follow the man who knows where he is going. Everybody is hailing Fashola because he decided to be different. I have been reading some copies of EBONY and ESSENCE Magazines over the weekend. African-Americans are not waiting for the Government to solve their problems for them. They are creating opportunities and opening up businesses for themselves. They know they are one of the minority groups in a country of mainly white folks. So they have decided to help themselves. Change in Nigeria starts with me and you!!! Cheers.

Redman44:

@Kobojunkie

You're entitled to your opinions. We need to take this thread beyond the internet. One of the first obstacles to real development in Nigeria is the mentality of the Nigerian people. I know what I'm saying. We can discuss and proffer ideas on how to hold credible elections in Nigeria for ages, but nothing will be achieved if the way of thinking of most Nigerians is not changed. We need to work hard to ensure that credible elections are held in the country. The solution lies with all of us.

Let me give you an example of how we can change things in Nigeria if we can just try. Sometime in 2207, my church held its Annual Youth Weekend. I attend one of the Parishes of RCCG. I had just come back from a trip to Britain. There was no substantive Youth leader on ground, and I was not willing to become the Youth President because I knew I would be travelling out again. Anyway, the onus fell on me to organize the program. I spent a lot of time developing ideas into reality. Many of the youths and teenagers were not willing to help out. I found out that they just did not know what to do. I had to type letters myself and take it to the Guest Speakers for the Seminar Program which was held on the Saturday of the Youth Weekend. My job was made easy because I had a Laptop. The church did not give us money for the Program. We had to raise money among ourselves and from the Matron of the Youths Fellowship. God helped us out gretaly. It was when it was clear that the 4 day event will be successful, that many youths started coming on board. I really taxed myself intellectually and financially to carry our plans out. To cut the long story short, the program was hugely successful. You need to see the joy on the faces of the youths after the event. One of the outcomes of the 2007 Youth Weekend was that my Parish has become an Area Parish of RCCG.

If we can all take up the gauntlet and start taking the destiny of Nigeria into our hands, things will change. We need to stop being armchair critics. People will always follow the man who knows where he is going. Everybody is hailing Fashola because he decided to be different. I have been reading some copies of EBONY and ESSENCE Magazines over the weekend. African-Americans are not waiting for the Government to solve their problems for them. They are creating opportunities and opening up businesses for themselves. They know they are one of the minority groups in a country of mainly white folks. So they have decided to help themselves. Change in Nigeria starts with me and you!!! Cheers.

Ok . . . just that I didn't understand the whole " People need to be positive" talk you posted earlier !!

execute all those in current power now