Zikkyy:

Thank God you know i am talking about finance. I have no problem if Pastor restrict their sermons to the spiritual aspect. Money management is not for pastor unless he is a skilled money manager.

The principles of money management are all in the bible. The bible is complete. Read my post above

Joagbaje:

We should learn to ask questions about others first before we judge them.

. . .and you should attempt to understand my post before you respond.

Joagbaje:

Have you tried to see from the other side . If any one teaches about prosperity what is The motive.

My post goes beyond motive. Is the pastor qualified to advise a member which 'stock' to invest in I did note that this is allowed if he is skilled investment manager.

Joagbaje:

Is it not better to teach the poor how to prosper. Instead of being a liability on others.

I do agree with this. I also believe the poor should be taught; by qualified personnel

Joagbaje:

if he came to heal broken hearted , heal the blind , what of the poor ? To make them poorer? No. Rather to prosper them. True prosperity comes from God.

When John became impatient asking if jesus was really the messiah since they haven't seen action yet jesus directed him to scriptures that he has started fulfilling. And one of such is preaching to the poor. What else can be a good news to the poor than their prosperity.

You give the impression that Jesus came to make the poor rich. if i have a wrong impression, please provide the required clarification. You also stated that Jesus did fulfill this mission. So i can conclude that Jesus did enrich the poor. My question then is how? It's not stated anywhere that the poor became loaded with cash. What i read in the bible is that the poor has the good news preached to them.

Joagbaje:

It's about empowerment for members. And many testify to this how the message of prosperity has worked in their lives.

How many? i don't know much about your church, but for a good number of churches i have been to ( including some CECs), the poor easily outnumber the rich. The way prosperity is preached, it's assumed to be a condition of financial lack. I remember asking you one time if there is a benchmark, a threshold for defining prosperity. But as always, you avoided the question. Maybe for some, having enough to start a petty trade is enough to give testimonies, for some it could be a few millions in the bank while for others it could be having your own personal airport. It's possible i agree with you if i have a proper understanding of what you mean by financial prosperity.

newmi:

You see that is the problem your connotative and contextual interpretation of meaning nobody said that the purpose of properity is primarily to fund church l wonder where you are getting your insinuations from

Okay, maybe i got it wrong. But to prove i did, kindly explain the post below

newmi:
it is hypocracy for anyone to think that properity or the topic of money is convinient to be discuss every where else but in the church it is LUDACRIS.
does the church exist illusively in space? or are churches built and sustained with the "blood of Jesus" as the transacting legal tender or perhaps a big, cheerful and "holigirized" "God blesh you" paid the bill for sound equipment, television air time or may be internet expenses.

Avoiding this post will make you a big lier It also mean you desperately need to get a brain

Joagbaje:

Many Christians also have finacial issues with diferent reasons. . . . . 

Joagbaje:

. . . . . . cheating and all sorts which works against the principles of prosperity and by this they have financial problem. It is not prayer they need . They need teaching. Some Christians are lazy at work . A lazy man will be poor even if he is born again. It is a pastors responsibility to perfect them there.

Romans 12:11
11 Not slothful in business. .

Proverbs 12:24
24 The hand of the diligent shall bear rule: but the slothful shall be under tribute.

The teaching on prosperity and success are based on this principles .

Issues that has to do with ethics/morals and hard work can be taught by anybody with the requisite experience. It would be wrong to see it as a the sole responsibility of the pastor or to say only the pastor has what it takes to provide such advise. Some mothers can be better at this. But i don't think this is the kind of prosperity talk people criticize.

Joagbaje:

A brother who's case was so bad that he began to steal , Paul had to make him know he can do something worthwhile with his life.

Ephesians 4:28
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands [/b]the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

If the church has no business teaching property why would paul be doing it here. He was teaching the poor wretched stealing brother how to prosper. A pastor has such responsibility.

Again this has to do with hard work and morals. I don't think people have issues with this. You will observe that Paul told him to work hard, not sow into some pastor.

Joagbaje:

Many Christians also have finacial issues with diferent reasons. [b]Some have problem with managing funds, financial indiscipline

I do have problem with this. If the pastor is not trained in money management, then he is not in a position to advise his congregation.

Joagbaje:

These are one of the issues in the lesser truth versus greater truths. If you give the poor handout of food and spends ,it is lesser truth. But if you can make him stand to the point of helping others , that's greater truth.

Com'on Jo, you can't be serious. I think you are just trying to be funning here.

Joagbaje:

Prosperity is nit about eating with golden spoon and being materialistic . It is about maximising your potentials in God instead of living a beggarly life.

Jo, can you clarify. I am not sure i understand this bit. Thanks

Joagbaje:

The principles of money management are all in the bible. The bible is complete. Read my post above

I did read your post. All i saw was hard work, diligence & honesty. is that all that is required?

Joagbaje:

Many Christians also have finacial issues with diferent reasons. Some have problem with managing funds, financial indiscipline ,cheating and all sorts which works against the principles of prosperity and by this they have financial problem. It is not prayer they need . They need teaching. Some Christians are lazy at work . A lazy man will be poor even if he is born again. It is a pastors responsibility to perfect them there.

You know Jo, reading this post all over and i think your post above describes the average pastor pastors cheat when they lie about tithe, seed sowing e.t.c some pastors are lazy, not willing to work hard. You talked about financial indiscipline, we have seen pastors buying private jet on credit then come begging the congregation for support to write-off their debt. I have to say that the average pastor does not what it takes to teach or perfect anybody

Joagbaje:

A brother who's case was so bad that he began to steal , Paul had to make him know he can do something worthwhile with his life.

The average Nigerian pastor will advise the thief to sow the stolen cash unto the pastor we've seen that happen before. an example is that Sheraton staff that was sowing stolen money

Zikkyy:

. . .and you should attempt to understand my post before you respond.

My post goes beyond motive. Is the pastor qualified to advise a member which 'stock' to invest in I did note that this is allowed if he is skilled investment manager.I do agree with this. I also believe the poor should be taught; by qualified personnel

I get your point now. You're saying a pastor who is not skilled in financial issues should get qualified personel to teach it. Agree. I thought you are saying such teaching should not be done at all. Many pastors do get professionals to train their members in such empowerment seminars.

You give the impression that Jesus came to make the poor rich. if i have a wrong impression, please provide the required clarification. You also stated that Jesus did fulfill this mission. So i can conclude that Jesus did enrich the poor. My question then is how? It's not stated anywhere that the poor became loaded with cash. What i read in the bible is that the poor has the good news preached to them.

Jesus came to destroy all the works of the devil which include sickness ,poverty and death . He also taught many principles of prosperity .

for a good number of churches i have been to ( including some CECs), the poor easily outnumber the rich. The way prosperity is preached, it's assumed to be a condition of financial lack.

Generally it is assumed as though It is about finances. But I have often explained that prosperity is not about finances it is about functioning in the fulness of Gods blessings made available through christ. If a man has money and he is living on oxygen tank or he is in a coma, that's not prosperity.

I remember asking you one time if there is a benchmark, a threshold for defining prosperity. But as always, you avoided the question. Maybe for some, having enough to start a petty trade is enough to give testimonies, for some it could be a few millions in the bank while for others it could be having your own personal airport. It's possible i agree with you if i have a proper understanding of what you mean by financial prosperity.

I can define it as walking in Gods blessing

Zikkyy:

Again this has to do with hard work and morals. I don't think people have issues with this. You will observe that Paul told him to work hard, not sow into some pastor.

But he still told him to give. That's based on the principles of prosperity. We make money to give. Giving to a pastor is just one of the many givings . I have often said here that. There are about 7major givings in the bible . Giving to parents, the poor, man of God, offering, special projects etc. One doesn't replace the other. They all have their blessings . I'm sure you have read scriptures where paul admonished , sowing to the man of God. So it has it's place.

Zikkyy:

You know Jo, reading this post all over and i think your post above describes the average pastor pastors cheat when they lie about tithe, seed sowing e.t.c some pastors are lazy, not willing to work hard. You talked about financial indiscipline, we have seen pastors buying private jet on credit then come begging the congregation for support to write-off their debt. I have to say that the average pastor does not what it takes to teach or perfect anybody

For me it a dangerous thing to talk about such because God has said "touch not" "judge not" but I can't deny certain things may be abused but it is difficult for us to determine the circumstances under which certain Descision is taken. Or the motive of the heart. And knowing that a wrong judgement becomes a sin. I may not agrree with a minister descision but I will rather live him with God to be judged but I do intercede for ministers and that's what we should do. If a minister commit crime The Law should handle him. But I won't lift my tongue against them.it's based on my scriptural understanding.

The average Nigerian pastor will advise the thief to sow the stolen cash unto the pastor we've seen that happen before.

A real pastor won't ask a thief to sow stolen money.

an example is that Sheraton staff that was sowing stolen money

Nobody knew he stole, pastor chris has taught against such things . It is against Gods plan of prosperity. Judas was a thief does that make Jesus an accomplice? Paul had a thief in his church what does that make paul.

Joagbaje:

I get your point now. You're saying a pastor who is not skilled in financial issues should get qualified personel to teach it. Agree. I thought you are saying such teaching should not be done at all. Many pastors do get professionals to train their members in such empowerment seminars.

Teachings can be done. I think it's a good thing for church to organize training sections for members (especially if it is free) But i am still against the teaching of the kalo-kalo gospel in church it is unscriptural and criminal. Any pastor teaching this should be arrested. It's advance fee fraud

Joagbaje:

Generally it is assumed as though It is about finances. But I have often explained that prosperity is not about finances it is about functioning in the fulness of Gods blessings made available through christ. If a man has money and he is living on oxygen tank or he is in a coma, that's not prosperity.

You are saying it's a perfect condition. The person lack nothing, good health, long life, money to meet every need, no pain, no grief, its joy unlimited, there is no 'down time' how many people truely achieve this Jo

Joagbaje:

I can define it as walking in Gods blessing

I guess there are very few prosperous people around then cos there are very few people that lives a live with no 'down time' (if any)

Joagbaje:

Jesus came to destroy all the works of the devil which include sickness ,poverty and death . He also taught many principles of prosperity .

Okay, this makes a bit more sense to me. My initial understanding of your post was that Jesus made some poor people rich. Why i agree some of the principles you highlighted are required for success, but they are not everything. sometimes they don't even apply (for the lucky chaps)

Joagbaje:

But he still told him to give. That's based on the principles of prosperity. We make money to give.

Yes, he told him to give; but to meet a need, not to a pastor. This is what we have been preaching here; give to meet needs, not 'dash' your money to a pastor with four P-Jets.

Joagbaje:

Giving to a pastor is just one of the many givings . I have often said here that. There are about 7major givings in the bible . Giving to parents, the poor, man of God, offering, special projects etc. One doesn't replace the other. They all have their blessings .

You are saying the blessing associated with giving to pastor cannot be achieved any other way. Do you have scriptural support.

“For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. “- 2 Timothy 4:3

Zikkyy:

Teachings can be done. I think it's a good thing for church to organize training sections for members (especially if it is free) But i am still against the teaching of the kalo-kalo gospel in church it is unscriptural and criminal. Any pastor teaching this should be arrested. It's advance fee fraud

What do you mean byKalo kalo gospel?

You are saying it's a perfect condition. The person lack nothing, good health, long life, money to meet every need, no pain, no grief, its joy unlimited, there is no 'down time' how many people truely achieve this Jo

That's the point. That's why the message a man hears count. Every christian ness to understand their inheritance in christ. They need to know how to say no to the devil. Challenges may come but you deal with them and overcome them.

Yes, he told him to give; but to meet a need, not to a pastor. This is what we have been preaching here; give to meet needs, not 'dash' your money to a pastor with four P-Jets.

Sowing of seeds to a pastor is very important. It has it's place . And it doesn't have to be due to lack on his part. His anointing will cause you to prosper. There are several givings in the bible. Theo one to the mimisternis only one of them.

You are saying the blessing associated with giving to pastor cannot be achieved any other way. Do you have scriptural support.

every act of obedience has it's blessing. For example if you want to live long. It's not by praying for long life. There is a principle to it. "honour your father and mother"

Giving to a Minster has it's own blessing. You become a partaker of his grace and reward.

Matthew 10:41
41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward. . ,

Galatians 6:6-9
Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap,  . . 9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Philippians 4:15-16
15 You Philippians also know that in the early days, when I left the province of Macedonia to spread the Good News, you were the only church to share your money with me. You gave me what I needed, and you received what I gave you.

When a minister ask people to give, you may not understand under what unction he is speaking. It is for the people benefit. There is blessing in giving.

Philippians 4:17
It's not that I'm looking for a gift. The opposite is true. I'm looking for your resources to increase.

You can see when people give to a minister, they are the one getting blessed. That's scipture.

Joagbaje:

What do you mean byKalo kalo gospel?

Example: I give to a church member, I receive 30fold return; I give to junior pastor, I receive 60fold; I give to the main man, I receive 100fold return

Joagbaje:

Sowing of seeds to a pastor is very important. It has it's place . And it doesn't have to be due to lack on his part. His anointing will cause you to prosper. There are several givings in the bible. Theo one to the mimisternis only one of them.

A lot of people are giving to pastor, and how many are prospering? It will be easy for you to say these things if we can truly support with practical evidence. But the truth is that we see results that contradict your statements.

Joagbaje:

Giving to a Minster has it's own blessing. You become a partaker of his grace and reward.

Matthew 10:41
41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward. . ,

Matthew 10:41(KJV)
41He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

I asked if blessing associated with giving to pastor cannot be achieved any other way. Receiving a prophet (and his message) has nothing to do with giving to the prophet. Your interpretation is not convincing please. BTW, what do you say of the righteous man? Who is a righteous man? Can we say a prophet is not righteous? If he is, then we can say he that receive a prophet not just receive a prophet’s reward, he also receive a righteous man’s reward. I don’t think Christ was referring to two different class of people here.

Joagbaje:

Galatians 6:6-9
Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap, . . 9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Philippians 4:15-16
15 You Philippians also know that in the early days, when I left the province of Macedonia to spread the Good News, you were the only church to share your money with me. You gave me what I needed, and you received what I gave you.

There is nothing here that suggests that blessings associated with giving to pastor cannot be achieved any other way. Thank you.

Going in circles, going in circles,

Joagbaje. can you teach us how to prosper here on NL? Cause you say it's not wrong to teach people how to prosper. Now I have heard a lot of prosperity preachers but none of them tell people how to prosper. They only say if they give, they will prosper. Perhaps CEC is different but the times I was there I also only heard "give and you will prosper". In fact Pastor Ken went further at the Haven conference and said "God cannot do without a gospel financier". So the members of Haven should not expect to die anytime soon because God cannot do without their money. I think this is not true!

Is it wrong to give to your pastor?

It depends who the pastor is and how much he has already.

giving to the rich is like robbing the poor:


Pro 22:16  He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want.

@post
If god is really is tired of all this prosperity gospel he should come down from heaven and learn to speak for himself

Zikkyy:

Example: I give to a church member, I receive 30fold return; I give to junior pastor, I receive 60fold; I give to the main man, I receive 100fold return

Its a lesser truth. We no longer recieve hundred fold in the new testament .when we give, we lay hold on eternal life.  T There is no such teaching . Maybe you're just joking.

A lot of people are giving to pastor, and how many are prospering? It will be easy for you to say these things if we can truly support with practical evidence. .

Read the bible its all there. Many testimonies. Several Christians give many testimonies like  that also in several churches.
Are you saying the word of God is. A lie? If the Word for any reason hasn't produced result for an individual, something must be missing. If I put the word to work and I didn't see the result , I won't blame God , I will check myself rather.  There are times we need to sow consistently to have a harvest.
Galatians 6:9
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap if we faint not.

We don't just do something once And say "lord where is the harvest"?.

There are different kinds of givings just like there are different kinds of prayer. If someone prays and hasn't received the answer, that doesn't mean others don't have answers . Several reason could be involved that's why it's always good to talk with the pastor. But jokes apart, for every giving there's is a receiving.

I asked if blessing associated with giving to pastor cannot be achieved any other way. Receiving a prophet (and his message) has nothing to do with giving to the prophet.

To receive a prophet in that context is giving or welfare. Everything has it's place. It's like a man says. "I won't pray to God , but I will read bible only"   He will surely get the benefit of studying but he will lose the Benefit of payer. But why should we be looking for how to escape simple scriptural teachings?.

Your interpretation is not convincing please. BTW, what do you say of the righteous man?  Who is a righteous man? Can we say a prophet is not righteous?  If he is, then we can say he that receive a prophet not just receive a prophet’s reward, he also receive a righteous man’s reward. I don’t think Christ was referring to two different class of people here

the point is simple . It's a law of sowing and reaping, maybe that's what your guy who saaid " if you give a junior pastor you have 20% if you give to G.O . You have 100%" I don't know if it's just a joke. But if it really happened I guess it is based on that scripture . Trying to say there is a reward for giving to fellow christian ,there is higher reward for giving to Mr M.O.G.

There is nothing here that suggests that blessings associated with giving to pastor cannot be achieved any other way. Thank you.

Why are you against giving to the man of God , when it's clearly in the bible ? Are we wiser than God. If God lay the principle . We do the word without questioning him. We shouldnt be looking for other way around it.  If the bible says so, that settles it for me.

When we give to MOG we are the ones been blessed , not him. We do it for our good. Especially if it's done by faith . If a man gives without faith he may not receive. And besides there are different givings , someone may give out of appreciation because of the blessing he has received , another gives as a seed for a specific reason or a specific harvest. There more to this things beyond a yes or no answer. Each matter is dealt with specifically.

^^^^^

Thousands of people of other walks of life and faiths prosper without giving to any "Pastor",

How do you explain that?

Dangote, Bill Gates, Wayne rooney, Christiano Ronaldo, Abu DHABI AND MILLIONS MORE,

How much have they given to Pastors?

Pls qoute the Bible passage that says we should give to Pastors---SPECIFICALLY, without you adding anything to the text.

Are they Christians? The bible never said umbelievers can't have money. Even some wicked can be rich. But what is their end? The bible says not to envy the wicked . It also says they lay it up for the just. That's another matter.

Ecclesiastes 2:26
26 For God giveth to a man that is good in his sight wisdom, and knowledge, and joy: but to the sinner he giveth travail, to gather and to heap up, that he may give to him that is good before God. This also is vanity and vexation of spirit.

Proverbs 13:22
22 A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.

wetu:


Joagbaje. can you teach us how to prosper here on NL? Cause you say it's not wrong to teach people how to prosper. Now I have heard a lot of prosperity preachers but none of them tell people how to prosper. They only say if they give, they will prosper. Perhaps CEC is different but the times I was there I also only heard "give and you will prosper". In fact Pastor Ken went further at the Haven conference and said "God cannot do without a gospel financier". So the members of Haven should not expect to die anytime soon because God cannot do without their money. I think this is not true!

It depends on the context of such preaching, giving cause grace and ability to abound. That doesn't take away the place of other principles of prosperity . When we do other things as Christians and we don't give, it's a life of covetousness . It works against other things we are doing . It tends to a struggle.

When a man make giving a lifestyle , it cause grace to abound upon other things we do. The intellect will function better, the minds xan be opened to better and bigger ideas, favour can abound, even those who don't like you will work for you without knowing why. That's the favour of God. He will cause men to give unto our blossom .

Joagbaje:

It depends on the context of such preaching, giving cause grace and ability to abound. That doesn't take away the place of other principles of prosperity . When we do other things as Christians and we don't give, it's a life of covetousness . It works against other things we are doing . It tends to a struggle.

When a man make giving a lifestyle , it cause grace to abound upon other things we do. The intellect will function better, the minds xan be opened to better and bigger ideas, favour can abound, even those who don't like you will work for you without knowing why. That's the favour of God. He will cause men to give unto our blossom .

So you don't teach people HOW to prosper, you teach them how to give so that they can prosper. And what you teach them is that this giving works when most of the giving is to the local church/pastor. Is that right?

Pastors do teach people how to prosper, I said it all in my earlier post. It is scriptural to teach people how to prosper. Time management, financial management, diligence , loyalty, prudence, not being lazy. These are all biblical principles.

wetu:

Is it wrong to give to your pastor?

It depends who the pastor is and how much he has already. giving to the rich is like robbing the poor:

Pro 22:16  He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want.

Was Elijah oppressing the poor when he asked the widow for her last meal,despite the fact that he had been eating babercued meat which this woman wasn't able to afford. He made her do the scriptural principle.

Giving to a minister doesn't have to be because of lack. It's because of the anointing upon him . That's what cause men to prosper. We can see the principle in the old testament.

Numbers 18:8
And the Lord spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them. by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, by an ordinance for ever

Why would Isaac ask his son to bring him venison before he would bless him? It is based on spiritual principles.

,

Joagbaje:

Are they Christians? The bible  never said umbelievers can't have money. Even some wicked [/b]can be rich. But what is their end? The bible says not to envy the [b]wicked . It also says they lay it up for the just. That's another matter.

Are you serious?

Why are you using negative connotations when addressing non-Christians?   Did I mention "Wicked" in my post? Because someone is not a Christian, does that make the individual a wicked person?

Are Christians better than the individuals that I mentioned?

Yes it Matters, If these individual can prosper without giving to a Pastor? Why should't a Christian prosper?

Is it every Christian that gives to Pastors? Don't some of them still not prosper?

Stop deceiving yourself and other gullible ones. Before Christianity came to our Lands, were there no Prosperous individuals?

Are there not still wretched people still giving to the pastors, yet still poor by all standards? Do thousands of people still not manage themselves in your Church? Are they all prosperous?

With all the Churches in Nigeria, Is the Country still not a corrupt and poor society? With a large disparity between the rich and the poor.

-shakes head-

In addition,

All the people that have shaped the world in a positive way, are they all Christians?

Ghandi, Einstien, Nobel peace winners, democracy champions, human rights activist, are they all Christians?

Joagbaje:

Was Elijah oppressing the poor when he asked the widow for her last meal,despite the fact that he had been eating babercued meat which this woman wasn't able to afford. He made her do the scriptural principle.

Giving to a minister doesn't have to be because of lack. It's because of the anointing upon him . That's what cause men to prosper. We can see the principle in the old testament.

Numbers 18:8
And the Lord spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them. by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, by an ordinance for ever

Why would Isaac ask his son to bring him venison before he would bless him?  It is based on spiritual principles.

Please don't pull out scriptures without thinking about what you are responding to. You may know what you are saying but you also need to know what you are responding to. The scripture I posted has three distinct parts:
a)He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches
b)he that giveth to the rich
c)shall surely come to want.

My point being that he that oppresses the poor will come to poverty and he that gives to the rich will also come to poverty. This means that SCRIPTURALLY giving to the rich is like oppressing the poor. Now if Elijah was rich and the widow gave to Elijah, then she will become poor. Please tell us if Elijah was rich.

Giving to the rich pastors should also fall into the category of giving to the rich. Please teach that biblical principle as well: giving to the rich leads to lack.

As for the heave offerings that should go to the sons of Aaron because of the anointing, That is all well, go ahead and become or remain rich on the offerings of the poor IF you are a son of Aaron since they don't have the anointing I suppose.


Heb 7:11  If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12  For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Why would Isaac ask his son to bring him venison before he would bless him?  It is based on spiritual principles.

You seem not to fully understand the New Testament:


Heb 8:6  But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.


In this new testament with better promises, the blessings are not bought:

Gal 3:14  That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


If you are alluding that blessings need to be bought, you are wrong. Giving attracts blessings of course. But Christians still need to be careful when, how and how much they give. According to the scriptures, giving money to rich people doesn't bring a blessing. I would assume that this applies to rich pastors as well. There are no examples of giving to rich pastors in the Bible because there are no rich pastors in the Bible.

I'm not saying pastors should not be rich but what I'm saying is that if you really claim to be teaching people biblical principles of prosperity, you should also be teaching them NOT to give to the rich, including pastors.

Joagbaje:

Its a lesser truth. We no longer recieve hundred fold in the new testament .when we give, we lay hold on eternal life.  T There is no such teaching . Maybe you're just joking.

There you go again copying Hagin and Fred Price (and even John Avanzini) and calling it greater truth! Or, you're not aware they wrote books years ago saying the 100-fold return is not literal or something to that effect? I think it shows, to an extent, a lack of integrity to borrow ideas and package it as though you got a special revelation that nobody else has.

I guess your friend Donnie was still dwelling on the lesser truth when he declared here recently that while he respects Hagin, he'll stick with the Word of God on 100-fold return. I'm sure tomorrow, now he has heard of the greater truth, he'll abandon it and claim that you are the source of that revelation. And then start belittling other christians who somehow lack revelation of greater truths.

The reality is that 100-fold was not working for anybody and simple common sense would have dictated abandoning such an interpretation of that verse. But with the one-man church structure where only one person gets the revelation, all of you had to go along with it, until you heard from the highest quarters.

Joagbaje:

It depends on the context of such preaching, giving cause grace and ability to abound. That doesn't take away the place of other principles of prosperity . When we do other things as Christians and we don't give, it's a life of covetousness . It works against other things we are doing . It tends to a struggle.

When a man make giving a lifestyle , it cause grace to abound upon other things we do. The intellect will function better, the minds xan be opened to better and bigger ideas, favour can abound, even those who don't like you will work for you without knowing why. That's the favour of God. He will cause men to give unto our blossom .

Can you give examples of bigger and better ideas that have emanated from the Nigerian christian community with all the endless giving? Last I checked, even the musical equipment that the churches use and brag about are imported. The cars you drive, the fancy clothes that the big name pastors wear. The social networking sites are a copy. Please stop trying to bamboozle anybody. Some of us may have been born at night, but not last night.

Joagbaje:

Its a lesser truth. We no longer recieve hundred fold in the new testament .when we give, we lay hold on eternal life.  T There is no such teaching . Maybe you're just joking.

1. Was Jesus' teaching about the 100-fold return wrong - or is it that the prosperity "gospel" people do not understand it or had/have an interest in twisting it?

2. Particularly with the bolded in red, is it now through giving that people "lay hold on eternal life"? Is this what Jesus taught about eternal life or are the prosperity "gospel" not again preaching another gospel?

Joagbaje:
There are different kinds of givings just like there are different kinds of prayer.

But, recently, when we asked you to identify the types of giving that advance the gospel, you couldn't do it!

Joagbaje:
If someone prays and hasn't received the answer, that doesn't mean others don't have answers . Several reason could be involved that's why it's always good to talk with the pastor. But jokes apart, for every giving there's is a receiving.[/i]

Ah, it is the kalo-kalo giving that you prefer to talk about; well, what we on this side are interested in primarily is the type of giving that advances the gospel.

Joagbaje:
To receive a prophet in that context is giving or welfare. Everything has it's place. It's like a man says. "I won't pray to God , but I will read bible only"   He will surely get the benefit of studying but he will lose the Benefit of payer. But why should we be looking for how to escape simple scriptural teachings?.

the point is simple . It's a law of sowing and reaping, maybe that's what your guy who saaid " if you give a junior pastor you have 20% if you give to G.O . You have 100%" I don't know if it's just a joke. But if it really happened I guess it is based on that scripture . Trying to say there is a reward for giving to fellow christian ,there is higher reward for giving to Mr M.O.G.

All convoluted somewhat but really still about kalo-kalo "giving"!

Joagbaje:
Why are you against giving to the man of God , when it's clearly in the bible ? Are we wiser than God. If God lay the principle . We do the word without questioning him. We shouldnt be looking for other way around it.  If the bible says so, that settles it for me.

More kalo-kalo ---- it is all bout giving to the "man of God"!

Joagbaje:
When we give to MOG we are the ones been blessed , not him. We do it for our good. Especially if it's done by faith . If a man gives without faith he may not receive. And besides there are different givings , someone may give out of appreciation because of the blessing he has received , another gives as a seed for a specific reason or a specific harvest. There more to this things beyond a yes or no answer. Each matter is dealt with specifically.

Always about giving to the "man of God". Also it is important to bear in mind that the Joagbaje saying when "we give . . ." is himself a pastor with a vested interest in receiving giving from others; he is actually on the "receiving" rather than the "giving" side even though he is talking about "we give".

Look, according to the Bible, every believer is a "man/woman of God", every believer is a priest and some of us will not tolerate this lame brain-washing attempts (except that far too many ill-equipped people fall for it) using the idea of something "special" about giving to "pastors"!

Joagbaje:

Its a lesser truth. We no longer recieve hundred fold in the new testament .when we give, we lay hold on eternal life. T There is no such teaching . Maybe you're just joking.

I am not joking. But you will need to see Pastor Adeboye for more info on this. No be me talk am

Joagbaje:

Read the bible its all there. Many testimonies. Several Christians give many testimonies like that also in several churches.

How many? when compared to the general populations of givers? If such (prosperity related) testomonies abound as you say, how come the poor still outnumber the so called 'prosperous' in most churches (100% in every church i have visited) I asked if there are blessings specific to sowing unto the pastor. I have seen testimony of somebody getting a job due to sowing activities and i have seen testimony of another person getting a job due to simple act of praying

Joagbaje:

Are you saying the word of God is. A lie?

It the words of Pastors we are discussing here please if Pastors quote the Almighty, the there will be no need for us to disagree

Joagbaje:

There are times we need to sow consistently to have a harvest.
Galatians 6:9
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap if we faint not.

We don't just do something once And say "lord where is the harvest"?.

Nobody said anything about a one-time transaction

Joagbaje:

There are different kinds of givings just like there are different kinds of prayer.

Joagbaje:

Everything has it's place. It's like a man says. "I won't pray to God , but I will read bible only" He will surely get the benefit of studying but he will lose the Benefit of payer.

These different kinds of giving, kindly tell us the different kind of returns associated with them. So we know how to maximise our returns. for exmple; if i want to be President of Nigeria, what type of giving should i undertake, same for buying a property in eko atlatic city (under construction), buying myself a prado e.t.c if you are unable to provide answers to questions like this, then i see no justification for cataegorizing givings according to potential benefits it does not make sense to anybody if the potential benefits only exist in the head of the pastor.

Joagbaje:

To receive a prophet in that context is giving or welfare.

Not giving, it's welfare (apologies for editing your post ). It's was about meeting a need. Remember the desciples were told to go out with nothing. It's not about giving to a rich pastor, or a pastor with private jet. Jesus did not prech giving to rich pastors.

Joagbaje:

It's a law of sowing and reaping, maybe that's what your guy who saaid " if you give a junior pastor you have 20% if you give to G.O .

Nna, i never said he was my guy I think he is more likely to be your guy

Joagbaje:

the point is simple . It's a law of sowing and reaping, maybe that's what your guy who saaid " if you give a junior pastor you have 20% if you give to G.O . You have 100%" I don't know if it's just a joke. But if it really happened I guess it is based on that scripture . Trying to say there is a reward for giving to fellow christian ,there is higher reward for giving to Mr M.O.G.

Oga Jo, this na attempt to dribble me ooh You are trying to avoid my question here. It's possible you did not read it, so i'll re-post. . . .

Zikkyy:

what do you say of the righteous man? Who is a righteous man? Can we say a prophet is not righteous? If he is, then we can say he that receive a prophet not just receive a prophet’s reward, he also receive a righteous man’s reward.

I don't think it's such a difficult question Jo. I just need a direct shot from you, no need to dribble. See this as a penalty kick ehn

Joagbaje:

Why are you against giving to the man of God , when it's clearly in the bible ?

This is not fair you know i am not against giving to pastors i am against pastors preachings on giving, is it that difficult to understand

Joagbaje:

When we give to MOG we are the ones been blessed , not him. We do it for our good. Especially if it's done by faith . If a man gives without faith he may not receive.

I will say when we give out of love for our neighbour (which includes giving to pastor), we are blessed If by faith you mean antipated returns, i still believe it is wrong. We are told to give cos such acts aligns with the commandment to love our neighbour, we are told such acts confers reward on the giver, and it's simply because you will be adhering to the commandment of loving your neighbour. But it's also good you teach people that we are not told to give in anticipation of a reward. That breeds selfishness, for which they is no reward.

Joagbaje:

When we do other things as Christians and we don't give, it's a life of covetousness . It works against other things we are doing . It tends to a struggle.

Can we say the man that don't give is truly a christian? And you are of the view dangly the 'multiple returns carrot' in their face is the best approach to teaching christians how to love

Joagbaje:

Was Elijah oppressing the poor when he asked the widow for her last meal,despite the fact that he had been eating babercued meat which this woman wasn't able to afford. He made her do the scriptural principle.

Giving to a minister doesn't have to be because of lack. It's because of the anointing upon him . That's what cause men to prosper. We can see the principle in the old testament.

You still dey attempt to confuse people with this Elijah story, after all the corrections You forgot that the babercued meat was no longer available prior to visiting the widow.

wetu:

This means that SCRIPTURALLY giving to the rich is like oppressing the poor. Now if Elijah was rich and the widow gave to Elijah, then she will become poor. Please tell us if Elijah was rich.

Thank you jare