₦airaland Forum

Joagbaje:
In our faults grace still works. There's protection still . If God allow all the consequences of our actions to come on us ,we won't stand. So the grace of God was still there. The bible characters we study about were not perfect , they had their short comings and umbrlief, we see the progression of their growth in knowledge and relationship with God.
Job was walking in fears which he confessed regularly and eventually ,the fear manifested. the issue is not what happened behind the curtain but the law of attraction.

Again, you have no proof for your assertion that he confessed negatively and that the negative confession caused his problem. I have written countless exams in life and was afraid before everyone of them. But never confessed it. And never failed any. Your conclusion that people would necessarily confess their fears is neither based in the Job scripture nor in practical experience. What people do when they are afraid is what Job did: they pray. They call on God. They sacrifice to God, which is essentially the same thing as prayer. For you to translate the prayer into negative confession is a huge stretch.

On the law of attraction, you do realize that saying that one's fear attracted problems is different from saying one's fear led to negative confession which attracted the problem, right? That you would make such a giant leap without a clear basis is troubling.

I agree that grace is available. That does not mean we explain everything away by saying it was the grace of God that protected people, even when they were misbehaving. What if they were not misbehaving? Once more, you do realize somebody can use that to attack everything many christians do, like wearing lipstick, earrings - that they're misbehaving but the grace of God is protecting them? Would you accept that? Like I said earlier, it's really disappointing to see a whole message based on inferences, especially when the inferences run contra to the express words in the passage.

Again, do you have a clear scripture that says that our positive confession provides a "force-field" that we depend on for our protection? Are you willing to assert unequivocally that the millions of christians that do not positively confess their protection or do so on a regular basis are only living by the grace of God?

nuella2:
@nuclearboy

Are you the only person he sent a mail to? Why are you the only person talking abt it in every thread? Alot of pple sent me mails and we discuss privately, i dont bring such to nl even if its in the nature of a woman to talk mostimes without limit, for christ sake you are a man o! This your attitude its disguisting to me, haha Chineke!

Generally, my take is that it is not good form to bring up the fact or content of private correspondence into the public arena. Except extraordinary circumstances warrant divulging such information, like when a life is directly at stake. E.g., somebody writes that he or another person plans to hurt Miss B or Mr. C.

nuella2:
@nuclearboy

Are you the only person he sent a mail to? Why are you the only person talking abt it in every thread? Alot of pple sent me mails and we discuss privately, i dont bring such to nl even if its in the nature of a woman to talk mostimes without limit, for christ sake you are a man o! This your attitude its disguisting to me, haha Chineke!

Generally, my take is that it is not good form to bring up the fact or content of private correspondence into the public arena. Except extraordinary circumstances warrant divulging such information, like when a life is directly at stake. E.g., somebody writes that he or another person plans to hurt Miss B or Mr. C.

In other words, you're inferring Job made negative confessions, which in turn, caused his problems? Sorry, I don't buy the idea of building a whole message or doctrine on inferences. People can have fears without constantly talking about it. If the scripture had clearly said he talked negatively, I'd be more comfortable erecting a doctrine on that foundation. Even at that, I'd look for additional striptures to support the exact point. That's how we build integrity into the message that issues from the pulpit. Sometimes, I find it difficult to invite people with even a bit of higher education to church, because with their level of education, they'd be shocked at the kind of interpretation that if somebody did it in a secular field, like economics or physics, would assure that the speaker is laughed out of the room.

Aside: my personal opinion is that every child of God has a hedge around him or her. This hedge is not created by positive confession but by the fact of belonging to God's family. In essence, positive confession does not create the "force-field of hedge". In my undergrad days, I invited a guy to campus fellowship, who  was a member of a cult. Walking with him one day, he told me that there's something we christians have around our head (a "halo, I guess) but wondered that a particular girl he knew that also attended a fellowship (not sure which) did not have it. That's the point. The clear truth is that many people in church are simply not born again. They may have confessed Jesus as Lord, but did not do so from their heart, as Rom. 10 requires. Such people are wasting their time confessing protection for hours everyday. Meanwhile, those who are saved can rest easy that God is their protection - their life is hid in Him - and need no hedge built by a "force-field."


Does that mean they should go about confessing death, destruction and other negative things? No. But that's a separate issue. If they know who they are in Christ and maintain a fellowship with Him, such confessions would not even proceed from their mouth. But that's different from believing that your protection comes from your confession.

Finally, nothing in the Job story indicates that the enemy entered through Job's confession. The Bible is clear as to why the enemy attacked. Job was successful and still had his protection on. If he broke his hedge, why did the devil need permission? He'd have pounced readily.

I'm sorry but nothing in that scripture says that Job suffered because of a negative confession. The "safety statement" was a description of how he felt. It does not say he uttered it at all, much less BEFORE his calamity. Besides, the Scripture is clear as to why Job suffered. It's really disappointing to make any scripture fit our worldview, regardless of its clear expression.

"I do not deny the power of the Holy Spirit to heal, deliver, save etc. I have prayed for someone a whIle back who was grievously ill with malaria , he was healed but there was no sign of falling down, foaming from the mouth etc, Just a simple prayer made in FAITH.

An in-law was at the point of death a few months ago, i prayed with a brother and he was healed, again with no falling, screaming, barking or such signs."

And you do not think that there are some of those you're deriding who have prayed for the sick and seen them healed instantly after falling under the power? I'm pretty sure some of the testimonies are far more spectacular than your malaria experience.

frosbel:
I am not here to condemn anyone but to point out certain truths.


Anyway let us see what true anointing is all about vs fake anointing


TRUE ANNOINTING

The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to:

1. Preach good news to the poor.
2. Bind up the brokenhearted
3. Proclaim freedom for the captives
4. Release from darkness for the prisoners,





FALSE ANOINTING

1. Barking
2. Spiritual laughter
3. Random falling down all over the place
4. anything goes, etc etc etc etc

And it is for you to tell the Holy Spirit HOW to heal the broken-hearted? If He chooses to comfort those that mourn or heal the broken-hearted through laughter, which does good like medicine, that is completely unacceptable to you, I guess. Does it occur to you that you're not making much sense on this issue?

"But it appears you have itching ears to hear lies, running to every new weird manifestation, looking for miracles everywhere instead of reading your bible and following Jesus on the narrow path that leads to LIFE."

I can't tell whether you're really serious or playing the clown. Good job.

^^^^^^^^^

I'm sorry to say, but you're being childish. You're erecting a straw man that you then proceed to demolish. You win the argument, but you succeed in saying nothing. Nobody in this discussion is saying the stuff you're repeating. Deal with the issues being presented, not made-up ones that make your position look far more sensible than it is.

Pst Rotimi:
I agree

frosbel:
That's your emphasis , falling , falling and more falling to prove that you have the Spirit of GOD, what arrant nonsense,

The proof that you have the HOLY Spirit is that you can overcome SIN .

If you are still living in SIN, lying, gossiping, sexual lust, drunkenness, slander, malice , covetousness, pride etc then you do not have the SPIRIT of GOD.


As many as are led the the Spirit of GOD, these are the children of GOD. The Spirit of GOD leads us into obeying the commandments of GOD not disobeying them and barking like dogs while crawling like earthworms.


He that sins is of the Devil, I didn't say this, the bible did.

Wow! I've only made a few posts and you already know my emphasis, genius? First of all, I do not emphasize falling. I've never fallen under the power, but many have under my minstration, with or without touching them. One fellow in my old neighborhood in Lagos invited me to be closer to his family because he said that nobody had ever laid hands on him and he fell. Apparently, he was expecting the same thing when I prayed, but I did not know that. I prayed for them and he fell. Later on, he told me that and complained that I wasn't getting close to his family as he would want. Contrary to your baseless assertion, that experience catalyzed a desire to be closer to God.

As to holy living, closeness to the anointing, if you know what you're doing, will draw you away from sin and in favor of clean living. First, because while sin has its pleasures, the pleasure in the presence of God far surpasses anything sin has to offer. Psalms 16:11 says: "Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore." Second, the Bible says that the love of the anointing constrains. That is, it restrains us from doing bad things and propels us to do the right thing for the sake of the anointing we carry. That's a truth that Joseph understood that restrained him from sleeping with Potiphar's wife because he understood his relationship with God. That's the same thing expected of anyone conscious of the anointing in and on him. 2 Cor. 5:14 ("For the love of Christ constraineth us. . . ." KJV); ("For the love of Christ controls and urges and impels us . . . ." AMP.) Christ refers to the Anointed One and His Anointing.

Finally, your assumption or conclusion that those who do not have (some of these) overt manifestations of the Spirit somehow are better predisposed toward holy living is preposterous, to say the least.

frosbel:
Hmm, what a farce !!


First - Peter told them that they were not drunk and also in many other verses asked believers to be sober and vigilant, not drunk and vigilant.

Second - They spoke in languages that people understood not gibberish


Third - There was no falling down

Fourth - Real converts were produced and the real gospel was preached about repentance from sin and dead works, not some heretical trash preaching on word of faith or wealth doctrine.

I get it. So because abuse is present, everything about a phenomenon is discredited. That's even more farcical than your initial criticsm.

Not surpised. Prov. 17:22 says: "A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones."

Are you kidding? Using the listing of the fruit of the spirit in Gal. 5 to restrict the various ways the Spirit of God could choose to manifest Himself is strange.

What do you mean by Nigerian christians? Are you suggesting that the belief that the anointing can be transferred only exists in Nigeria? The power of God is transferable, just as other forms of power. Abuse occurs sometimes, but it does not take away the truth.

When the anointing of God is present, a lot of things may happen, including falling and various manifestations. While laying of hands sometimes triggers the manifestations, you do not even need to lay hands on anybody to see it happen. Seeing God's power at work is not rocket science. If you spend time in prayer and the Word and have a bit of understanding of the person of the Holy Ghost, you'll see these things work in your life, without asking. One of the things that cemented my faith in Jesus was hearing or reading about the things of God and then applying them, with similar results. It became clear to me that the life of God is real. And that realization many years back is part of what is keeping me in the faith today, especially when surrounded by people in environments that make belief in God sound stupid.

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"The anointing can be transferred to oil of course , even to saliva"

Thanks. I agree.

"Nobody said isaac gave money into the soil. Isaac illustration is a parallel of spiritual truths."

And that parallel is what? Giving money? Because that's only thing I hear preached any time I hear that scripture brought up. Yet, that's not the scripture's primary message. Is it that if a scripture is about money, we emphasize its primary message, but when it's about other things we leave the primary message and more direct parrallels and look for the money parallel?

Simply put, hardly anybody is going to get rich who focuses a large portion of their wealth-building on giving. Bible teaches clearly how people get rich and giving may not even be among the major ones. What Isaac did is a major step in the path to riches. Why ignore it and focus on a so-called parallel and make it appear that if you give, you get rich like Isaac, using that scripture?

That's why so many in the Church today are very poor. They hear that the road to riches is primarily about giving. And year in year out, they have nothing to show for it. Of course, there would be a few that would always come with testimonies. But I'd really be interested in any church doing some serious study about the percentage of people in the congregation whose financial positions improved over the years after hearing many money messages. Publishing the testimonies of 1% of the people does not suffice.

"you can also read my post, where i gave the instance of how isaac sowed in the land of the philistians when they hard economic problem, but the bible says he reaped that same year an hundred fold."

Isaac's sowing was not giving. It was plain old fashioned hard work. Or better still, investing. He invested in the land and reaped rewards. Unfortunately, instead of many people working hard or investing today, they believe that they'll get Isaac's results by giving and giving more money. That Scripture does not say that and it's long past time we stopped using it to support giving. Instead, it should be used to support real sowing - planting, watering, and watching the Lord supernaturally bless the work of your hands. Giving is important but the over-emphasis on financial giving as a route to wealth-building has no scriptural or practical foundation and is at the root of many ills plaguing the Church today.

"Its a fire from God. We were baptised with holyghost and fire. A man of God can pass the anointing to anything , cloth ,had ,handkerchief ,apron , water, sand etc."

I noticed there was no mention of oil. You don't believe the anointing can be transferred to (olive) oil? Or may be it was covered by etc?

Sadly, you're right: I have noticed that a sizeable number of people are not in Church to serve God with all their heart, soul and strength. They are looking for what they will gain on Earth instead of seeking a deeper relationship with the Master. What they miss is that a lot of things they are running after would be pursuing and overtaking them, without much stress, if they seek that depth of relationship. And the joy and pleasures in the presence of God far surpass any earthly blessings.

Muskeeto, Zikky, Dare2Think:

Thanks.

Frankly, my intention and interest revolve around getting members of the Church to start using their brain - again. Many christians are willing to say that God has given us everything on Earth for our use and benefit, but tend to forget that the brain is one of those things. The truth is that Christianity has not attracted many smart people. The Bible says that not many wise are called into the Kingdom. This is not necessarily bad because God's purpose is to use the unwise to confound the wise; to transform these simple folks into the smartest beings on earth. The psalmist says that the purpose of the Word is to make the "simple" wise (Ps. 19:7 - "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.". Problem is that many christians have not allowed the Word and Spirit of God to make that transformation in them perhaps either because they do not want to, are too lazy to do so, or have not been presented with the opportunity. Sometimes, I see what people say or do in Church and it is shocking. Because anybody with an active brain can easily predict the outcome. Of course, a little while - these days literally a few months - you see the whole thing unraveling.

Interestingly, Jesus has been made unto us wisdom, and people recite and confess such scripture all the time. But when you look for evidence of the wisdom, it is sorely lacking. Perhaps, another evidence of the peril of placing too much stock on confessions?

Oh, btw, my reference to Abuja was not directed at any person - so I hope nobody was offended. I just picked some locations at random. And Abuja also happens to be one of my favorite cities in the world.

"We shouldn't miss the purpose of the thread ."

The purpose of this thread, as I understand it, is that your confession "controls" your life. No, they do not. Nothing in the Bible or in the experience of christians, Jews and non-christians suggest that. Maybe, I'm being nit-picky, but I believe that the term "control" is a strong one. An employer controls his employee regarding the employee's work under the employer. Confessions have no such power.

There are many people who hardly spend time on confessions and have wildly successful life outcomes. There are many people that spend time confessing and their life outcomes either do not change or get worse. A good explanation is that they're neglecting the real things that control their life. Often, negative confession is a symptom of a deeper malaise, which then affects the person's overall attitude to life, including spoken words. When somebody hears them, he exclaims: "I knew it; he kept on speaking negatively and he got what he said." But that's not a correct reading of what happened. Such a person lost control of their life or situation and it manifested in negative confessions.

However, negative confession is not necessarily the culprit. We see in the life of Jesus and the apostles that they sometimes engaged in negative confessions. And that did not affect their life outcomes.


I read an author the other time, in trying to explain that when Jesus said the thief came to steal, kill and destroy, that he was not referring to the devil. The author explained that satan was a mere serpent in Genesis but by the time we get to Revelation, he has transmogrified into a dragon. His reasoning was that it was because christians kept on interpreting that scripture in John as referring to the devil as the thief, murderer, destroyer. Really? Our confessions have such power?

Again, my problem is the level of emphasis. And you've not shown me any thing in the Word or real life, includingthe life of Believers in the OT or NT, that justifies that emphasis. In fact, in overemphasizing it, we ignore the full import of the scriptures that are being used to justify its widespread attention. For instance, I personally have heard little about about how Prov. 6:2 cautions against beign a co-signatory to loans. Every financial planner worth her salt would emphasize that. I would like to see that emphasized further in the church, using that scripture, instead of using it to justify confession, when it hardly speaks to that. Yesterday, I noticed that a radio station devoted a segment to the issue and how people were exercising wisdom in that area, building real wealth.

In emphasizing how our words create our world, we need to let people know that our words are only a small part of how human beings create. Understanding that would lead us into teaching the creative process better. And from there, start seeing congregations with real "creations". The whole gospel would be preached everywhere with some change to spare, if believers came up originally with google, facebook or groupon - all mutli billion-dollar enterprises. Does anybody really think that Sergey and Larry spent hours everyday declaring how they would be the creators of the world's most successful search engine? Little wonder they come up with the "witty inventions," while the christians that confess it can hardly come up with any creative enterprise other than testimonies of how they confessed their way into a job in First Bank or a supply contract in Abuja. Often of course, conveniently forgetting that in many cases, their uncle or some deacon in church played a disproportionately large role.

Sure, words can be creative and God framed the worlds by His Word. But let's not get too carried away. Have you wondered why none of the modern creative ideas and products are attributable to those who confess at every given moment? Have you ever entered into an African church and heard testimonies of inventions, much less attributable to confessions? All you hear are testimonies of how people got contracts or jobs, which by the way are not always bad, but the real wealth today is in inventions.

No disagreement on flattery. That's why I said "from a cynical" perspective. It's like saying bribery or sleeping with the boss will get you the contract or promotion. That's a fact of life. It does not mean it is recommended. But it also hardly questionable that they accomplish the results. Ditto using your lips in flattery to get results. The right side - non-cynical - side is to use your lips to speak right to get results. But that's not the same thing as confessing scriptures for hours on end. There's nothing in the Bible that shows that christians lived that way. This is a modern practice that properly grew in significance because it was already in use in the secular world - which in turn was influenced in that respect by Eastern religions.

I don't see how your amplified translation justifies the use of Prov. 18:20 only in confessions. What you say plays a part in what happens. But that's not the same things as saying your confession is the only thing you say.

I don't think we should negate the power of confession. I just don't think it in anyway deserves the level of emphasis it gets. And not one person has been able to show this overwhelming power of confession. Like, somebody wakes up, tells himself he'll work at Shell, sits at home confessing for 10 years and sees that materialize.

Understanding Some Popular Confession Scriptures

Prov. 6:2. “Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth.” This scripture may apply to confession generally speaking, but it is not necessarily about confession. It’s about promises, which could be oral or written. The immediately preceding verse makes that clear: “My son, if thou be surety for thy friend, if thou hast stricken thy hand with a stranger . . . . ” You go to a police station or court and sign as a surety for a friend. You may not have uttered a word, you may even be a deaf-mute, but your signature has ensnared you. Same with co-signing a loan – auto, credit card, mortgage. So, the primary lesson people need to learn is the importance of promises and the danger of suretyship or co-signing. You can confess all you want about wealth, but if you have these bad habits, you’re likely to be poor.

Prov. 18:20-21. “A man's belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; and with the increase of his lips shall he be filled Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.” Fruit of lips includes confession, but not limited to it. It includes praise, as Heb. 13: 15 says (“By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.”) Thanking even fellow human beings can satisfy your belly! On a more cynical note, those whose lips produce flattery may get faster results than those that spend endless hours confessing success and wealth. Fruit of our lips also covers how you speak and what you say to others – not just God. If you have a thick Nigerian accent and interview to be a CNN news anchor in Atlanta or a prosecutor in Vermont, your chances of getting the job are zero. But if you refined your accent, what comes out of your mouth and how you express it can get you the job. Also if you have limited knowledge of a prosecutor’s job, you’ll answer the questions wrongly, fail the interview and not get the job, all because of the fruit of your lips. A person that meets a police officer or a gun-toting civilian on the street and answers roughly could get himself killed, given a ticket or punished in some other way. That’s an example of death proceeding from the tongue. Again, the converse is also true.

Job 22:28-29: “Thou shalt also decree a thing, and it shall be established unto thee: and the light shall shine upon thy ways. When men are cast down, then thou shalt say, There is lifting up; and he shall save the humble person.”  This scripture outlines some preparatory steps. Thus, the key is preparation – in prayer, word, worship, generally spending time with God. Unfortunately, people want fast food Christianity. They do not want to spend time to understand divine principles. E.g., the principle of agreement. Jesus said what 2 or more agree on, they get. Confession works on that principle of agreement, including agreement with God’s Spirit, His Will or Word,  So, knowing the underlying principles is far more important than some of these practices.

James 3: 2-5. “ For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body. Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth. Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!”
Again this relates to confession, but not necessarily with the importance we attach to it. It’s more about what we say and how we say it. It covers things like rudeness, cursing others, blessing others. Unfortunately, many people are likely to get the impression that they can control their life’s outcomes by confessions for hours on end every day, when they’re more likely to change their future and fortune by learning to use their tongue in a polite manner. As the Scripture says, let your words be full of grace, seasoned with salt, so you know how to answer everyone. There are other scriptures along those lines.

Primarily, for confession to work, it has to be an expression of an inward faith. This faith may come from a revelation of the Spirit or deep knowledge of the word or repeated confession, etc. E.g. you’re praying and God speaks to you or shows you that a particular job at Exxon belongs to you. You get up and start declaring it. Job manifests. What confession did is serve as agreement with God and express your faith. Somebody else may de confessing about an Exxon job for 5 years and nothing shows up. That’s because confession is taken away from its proper function, misapplied or overrated.

I have seen confession play a key role in my life, both in spiritual and secular matters. But I have also seen that confession has not worked for a lot of people. I knew a long time ago that confession is meaningless, if your words are against the clear words of God. E.g., a true case of a woman regularly confessing thar Mr. B, a married man, would become her husband. But other areas were not clear cut. Getting a job at Exxon in Calabar is not clearly against God’s will. But it may not be God’s will for the particular individual. Confession is either useless then or not in the individual’s best interest.

As I meditated further on these issues, it became clear why confession does not often work. It’s simply overrated. Just like giving, it is an important element in personal success, but only a minor one in comparison to other factors, such as hard work, personal connections, timing, patience, education. If many people that confess God’s work can sit down to reflect and tell themselves the truth, they’ll see that the rate of success is far lower – much lower than 50% - than they or others believe. Touting a few testimonies does not change this fact. And even in those cases it worked, the confessors would admit that they did a whole lot of other things to see the realization of the confessed act or situation. Like studying for the right degree, working hard, talking to the right people. If all these steps were taken, why give too much credit to confession?

In a follow-up post, I’ll use a few popular confession scriptures to explain confession’s seemingly  low success rate.