₦airaland Forum

WinsomeX:
@BabaGnoni,

I think you should understand why the leading WoFist on this forum will want to attack, discredit and twist your words. You are the leading exposer of Word of Faith on this forum. These are the hazards that come with the work.

Maybe when next they begin to wine like newborns about Eve and Serpent, simply refer readers to this page where the matter has been dealt with and hopefully laid to rest.

Some conflicts in this life are unnecessary. If only we can learn to stand on principle and not let things like hatred and favoritism motivate or guide us. When the laughter video was posted, I said we should have discipline and stick to the purpose of this thread. The derailing probably would have ended at that point if you had supported me or at least maintained silence. Instead, you added fuel to the fire by accusing me of an ulterior motive. Your comrade joined and both of you're claiming the video has some power to rub us the wrong way.

Another instance of derailing came with another video, with cheers from your camp. Again, we urged focus on the purpose of the thread. But you're not interested. It was in the process of defending that video that the serpent story resurfaced.

The serpent story could have been nipped in the bud and not allowed to derail the thread further, if you had enough backbone to stick to principle. Instead of calling on your friends alleged to have made or witnessed the statement to confirm or deny it in clear terms, you pushed the challenge to others. Is that how we ascertain truth in the church, as opposed to the world? When Peter confronted Ananias and Saphirra, did he leave it to others to prove the charge? If a Christian friend of yours is accused of stealing money from his employer, you call him and he said the employer should prove it instead of telling you he didn't do it, would you take him seriously?

To add insult to injury, you say the Eve-serpent claim is immaterial. Really? People that interpret scripture as saying they can command angels are fraternizing with demons, but those who make such claim are ok? Such a warped sense of priorities! Imagine what your reaction would have been if the doctrine emanated from WOF. That's why it's hard to take some of you critics seriously. Perhaps, you should google that story and know the kind of groups that assert it. Then, we can associate you with them, using your standard that those that have any overlap with an Aladura teaching are themselves part of a demonic group. Remember, it doesn't matter if the overlap or copying is from satan's side and not the other way round. Once you're found to share any topic, we lump you together. Fair enough?

vooks:
Am really liking the way WOFers shift the burden of proof;
-' nowhere are we commanded NOT to tithe therefore tithing is cool'
-'nowhere are we commanded NOT to command Angels therefore we can command them'

But this line of reasoning can be applied to so many things and lead to absurd practices being incorporated into Chriatianity. For instance,
-nowhere are we told NOT to pray facing Jerusalem,
-nowhere are we told NOT to offer free will offerings that have nothing to do with sin (why not offer Bulls in this manner)

A more sane approach should be dissecting all scriptures with Angels and observing their manner of interaction with God's people whether in NT or OT.
1. Are there incidences of angels being put under man's command?
2. Do we have records outside the scriptures of the primitive church where this was practiced?
3. When FIRST did this doctrine of commanding Angels emerge?

Again, you jump in to display your ignorance, as you did with the Eve-Serpent issue, from which you silently withdrew with egg on your face when the person you were defending could not categorically deny the charge. In this case, it's your friend that employed that logic of silence in his WOF thread. So everything you said here applies to him.

WinsomeX:
The appropriate question is: Is there a scripture that says Christians should command angels?

As for your "overlap" in doctrine and practices with Aladura, I hope now you are getting the picture of our grouse with WOF? Christianity does not "overlap" with demonic practices. We practice the BOOK!

So, that's the appropriate question? Do you recall when somebody asked a similar question on the WOF thread about any instance of Jesus naming the Pharisees whose practices he condemned? Your response then was that since there's nowhere in the Scriptures we're told not to name names, you'd go ahead to do so. You see how that logic works?

The truth is that we can learn from silence and that silence is not necessarily proof. Problem is some of you are inconsistent in adhering to principle. So apply your question to your WOF thread in response to the question posed by that brother and then come back to lecture us.

Image123:
Even night brother, not only day. Majority of these fellows are just grumpy grumblers, murmurers and complainers. With nothing to offer except criticism and cheering their fellow complainers.

Exactly, my major beef with them. Nothing to offer. Somebody is out there preaching to souls headed to hell, and they'll complain he's wearing an expensive suit. Somebody prays for the sick to get well, they complain the healings are fake. Why don't they go and do it the right way themselves? In all of these, has anybody heard them share stories of many souls they have won? Or how they have helped the sick do better, and perhaps save them from going to the fake healers? No, it's always criticize and complain and feel good. What value are they really adding to the Kingdom of God?

Bidam:
Typical evasive tactics. Let's take your silence for consent.

BTW it was you and your anti-WoF that started derailing this thread not me, so let's put things in proper perspective. I rest my case.

Suddenly, some people are now champions of not derailing the thread, when they refused to quit earlier after several pleas! Isn't one sentence denying or confirming the allegation a faster way to stop any derailing than making multiple evasive statements and prompting more posts?

vooks:
Am not here to mother you nor offer free comprehension courses sir!

That's a typical inconsistency on WOFers. Always rationalizing their acts when reality shatters their utopia.They don't take medicines because 'by His stripes we are healed' BUT when they do, Jesus is healing them through the medium of pagan medical doctors

Either your ignorance is oozing out or you're talking utter rubbish. WOF is not against medicine. What is wrong in God using pagan doctors? He uses pagan taxi drivers, bankers, lawyers, techies, etc. to help His children. What's different about the doctor that would make us reject him while accepting the rest?

WinsomeX:
Don't mind him and his demonic practices. So what's the difference btw you and the white garment people who names angels?

That scriptures he quoted clearly stated that angels are "sent to care" or "sent to serve" God's people. The question Gombs should answer is who is doing the sending? God or the saint? I hope we won't have to resort to another "rebuke before elders" sort of debate to understand that it is God that sends angels to care for saints by his sovereign will and not us calling angels as if we are practising metaphysics or occultism.

This your guilt-by-association approach to discussions is getting tiresome. One day it's christian science; another day it's Aladura. Does it occur to you that in the subject of Religion, unlike many other subjects, there's quite some overlap. So, you're likely to see a practice or doctrine in one faith existing in another. I guess we should all stop meeting in buildings, praying in the name of Jesus, holding communions, engaging in vibrant prasise and worship, because we're likely to see these in white garment churches? Don't get me wrong: there's room for legitimate use of this tactic, as one's associates may tell much about that person or doctrine. But your abuse of the concept is getting embarrasing.

Regarding angels, I'm willing to discuss with you or any other person to share and learn. But I need an answer to this question first: Is there a scripture that says that christians cannot or should not command or dictate to angles or send them on assignment?

vooks:
@BabaGnoni,
Thank you for warning me. I salute these 'gorilla' tactics since they prove something. If they were goDs, they would dispatch curses on us 'enemies of the truth'. But they know that's BS and it don't work outside the four corners of their prayer closet.
I had a refreshing debate with a WOFer who tried to convince me that Doctors treats but God heals hence medical science is compatible with divine-health utopia. I needed how satanists and pagans get well in hospitals without ANY healing faith and whether faith was necessary for medical science 'miracles'. She blew a fuse

So, what's your point? The view of that WOFer represents WOF? Look, if you want to have a real debate on what's the WOF stance on anything, go to what the leaders have written or said consistently about it. Is it that you attackers are not sufficiently informed about WOF or you read the materials, understand it and still choose mischief? The other time, one of you here was attacking WOF because a girl wrote checks without money in her account to back it - the same thing WOF leaders are against. You guys need to up your game big time. If these are your best shots, we might as well call it a day.

There are useless threads for certain videos. Those videos should not be allowed to serve as a distraction from the purpose of this thread. People can always create new threads to discuss other WOF issues instead of stubbornly insisting on destroying this thread.

The WOF thread has been slow from the very beginning. The record is there for everyone to see. That it slowed down further should not be used as an excuse to make it appear that it was always fast. And of course, the principals can chose a slow pace as a way to accomplish their objective. But they should also recognize that that artificially inflates the number of views. So, when they want to brag about the popularity of their thread, they should not gloss over the point.

It is interesting that the goal post of success is now being re-drawn. It's no longer about rescuing multitudes from WOF, especially young people, as originally claimed; now it's no longer about the numbers. One person being 'saved' is OK. People should make up their mind: are they focusing on the good service they claim they're providing or are they touting its success? Any time they resort to the latter, they open themselves up to scrutiny using normal standards of measuring success of a venture.

That some WOF adherents decided to stay out of the thread is neither here nor there. That we chose not to subject ourselves to unnecessary mockery is a wise and commendable decision. When the issue was about WOF in the deleted thread, we willingly participated even when some disagreed with our views. And we did so with a pure conscience, while the attackers had a hidden agenda. The agenda is now brought in the open in the new thread, which is a good reason why it is a major failure.

Sure, the proverbial one convert may signify success. But could it also be evidence nobody is buying what you're selling? We tend to forget that sometimes, when we should be asking why?

Gombs:
Gradually turning this thread into a anti-WoF thread. Interesting!

I'd let you folks have a swell time, then, I'd Continue with the book. Younlot were same in you WoF thread, discusing. Just like 5 of you all..maybe image I think too. No other new person, yet, it is a success according to WinsomeX. This thread has made folks download the book, and by reading, theyill improve. My inbox testifying already.

Anyways, a little assignment, take the number of visits to that WoF teaching thread by 6am, review it by 9pm. That thread on a good day (days you lot don't go in and out with ridiculous tales), your threads don't get 30 Visits, yet it was successful.

Anyways, I'd continue with the book when I see some sanity restored.

Correct on all points!

Their wish is that this thread would die. Recall that this is not the first, seond or third time that Midas Touch is being mentioned on NL. I even excerpted a page or two during the WOF discussion that was deleted. But each time, they pretend the book is not there or dismiss it, claiming it's too little too late, etc. Unfortunately for them, they could not stop it this time. So, they're working hard to derail the thread. One day, it's a video about laughter, another day it's a video about miracles. Why not discuss the substance of the book - the real purpose of this thread?

Regarding the WOF thread, it's an abysmal failure, as anybody with an ounce of intelligence would have predicted from Day One. Apart from failure in terms of contributions, contributors and views, it's a complete failure regarding it's objective, which is to lead people away from WOF. We'll know it's a success when we hear (truthfully) that people have left WOF churches in droves or that scores of churches have abandoned WOF preaching as a result - direct or indirect - of their thread.

Yeah, that would happen!!!

WinsomeX:
What many couldn't fathom before now was that anyone could ever challenge WoF leading figures. O yes, there had been individual scrutinise but not on a thorough scale as we have it on the WoF thread by DrummaBoy, trustman and BabaGnoni. They even had the effrontery to name names! It's simple: a messenger cannot be separated from his message.
WoF people will rather have us correct without naming names. But Paul did in Galatians 2. Their example is Hagin and no wonder the book has made such "impact" that no one wants it on thier bookshop shelf. .

First off, you have no idea how well or not the book, Midas Touch, has done in sales. Making such a conclusion based on an anecdote or two from a Nigerian bookstore is irresponsible. The book was not written primarily for a Nigerian audience. And even if it was, you need to base your assertion on more solid evidence like number of sales from the booksellers association, amazon rankings, etc.

Let's assume the book did not sell very well. I thought the explanation all along was that the contents of the book were not palatable to some owners of the church bookstores? Which is it, not naming names or not writing what they like? You guys need to make up your mind. Oh, by the way, your logic is less than pedestrian. Let me get it straight: the church bookshelves would have been filled with the book if the book had named the culprits; that way the culprits and their acolytes will ensure that their shelves are filled with the book that casts them in negative light with their names boldly displayed! Even you are capable of better reasoning!

Better still, if the books did not sell because names were not named, should it not concern any true christian that people would not buy a book whose message is relevant but would only do so if names are included? So, the draw is not doctrine but gossip? Interesting.

Regarding your WOF thread, you humor yourself a lot. Your thread is as useless as they come. The things you are complaining about have been out there even in bigger platforms. That you're ignorant of that does not mean such critical outlets do not exist. Even in Nigeria, I know of christian attacks against WOF for at least 20 years - saying similar things to what you say here. At the end of the day, they accomplish little. Perhaps, because the attackers are not going about it God's way or because they offer their hearers little, beside bitterness.

And talking of offering little, have you noticed that all of you that are devoted to attacking WOF would rather do anything but debate the substance of Midas Touch? It's rather (a) Hagin's motive in writing it; (b) preacher's motive in not adhering to the message; (c) whether rebuke should be publicly or privately done. You'd think that those that think WOF is rubbish have been handed an easy platform to demonstrate the rubbishness. But you can't. In fact, the opposite of your wishes is happening: people that don't care that much about Hagin are seeing that he's not the monster you've been painting him to be and have even seen areas of agreement. That's why you rushed for a video that you think puts him in a bad light because you can't bear to see him enjoy the opposite of your wish - a tarnished image.

Of course, you're failing woefully. As is your WOF thread. I hate to break it to you, but based on the immensity of investment into that thread, it is a monumental failure. With all the hype and your adverts from thread to thread, you've only mustered a few thousand views over several months. And even that is padded. Because there are 3 principals of the thread, your visits are about thrice more than would be the case if there was one principal. Also, because you are so slow to post material there, people are forced to visit more often that would be the case. E.g., if you post 10 items in one day, somebody may visit once and read it all. If you take 10 days to post 10 items, some people would have to visit 10 times, thereby increasing the number of views. So, the real number of views (soon) would be about 500 in 5 months!

Which is not so bad, compared to the number of visits to your blog!!

Processor01:
How do you know that any new illumination you gain is from God or the devil? As you read and study the Bible, any knowledge you gain must achieve ONE main thing for you – make you become more and more like Christ, anything else is not of God. So, understanding the mysteries of God should bring us to conform to the image of Christ.
There are some topics I didn't learn from the traditional church and it is because these two topics were areas in my life that I really struggled with so I took my questions direct to God.
1) Premarital sex - This was a no no and the Lord showed me how this amongst other sins helps to open a backdoor to the devil in a Christians life. It is an end result from Lust of the flesh and a refusal to allow self control to have its way in a Christians life. Or do you not know that your body is God's temple?
2) Drunkenness and alcohol consumption - Drunkenness was also a no no but God never condemned alcohol. He however pointed me to a scripture 1 Corinthians 8; he made me understand that I should think of others in love and how my actions may affect them.
9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak.
10 For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, won’t he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11 So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge.
12 When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. (NIV1984)
Anyway, I had just gotten born again and was all by myself so wasn't too sure that it was God speaking so I asked him to show me another portion since his word says "by two or more every truth is established" then he pointed me to another scripture Romans 14; keep in mind that I didn't know jack about the Bible so couldn't have imagined this verses or portions of the Bible in my head.
14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.
15 If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died.
16 Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. (NIV1984)
That's why no MOG or 'new revelation' can sway me from the truth.
I'll be praying that God will open your eyes to his will concerning Premarital sex. Shalom bro!

Looks like you don't know our good brother. He'll respond that he does not preach experience; only the Word of God. Then, he'll go into some mumbo jumbo about the Greek version of particular words, armed with Strong's or Vine's Dictionary. I only hope he does not do damage to the unwary.

Gombs:
Some folks obviously have comprehension and mathematical problems. You are a millionaire! Dear Lord Jesus!

You lot are hard to please. If I wear an expensive suit like 520k or so, you lot would complain, If I wear N250 shirt, una go complain, if I don't wear, you still will. Now, you are a millionaire, thank God. If I had said so, I'd have been boasting like your fellow band of misfits like to say.

If I had said "I got 9 clothing items for 800, 000k, your ilks would:

1. Call me a liar
2. Call me proud and boastful
3. Call me extravagant and that poor folks are everywhere
4. Etc

You would even say "Jesus was poor, he wore clothes Herod dashed him" "Paul bla bla bla" "Wofist are bla bla bla, they are not contended at all"
For eg a pastor bought a dog for$16, 000, alot of you guys came here and cried foul, as if you will tell him how to spend his money, of course the idea you lot has was that he uses church funds, if he has a dog of $2, you lot would still call him poor, and cheap. You just called yourself a millionaire, yet ... let me just be quiet.

I said I got clothing items worth 50k for 3k (miscellaneous expenses) . You folks said

1. Cheap
2. Okirika
3 etc

If I had said "I got 9 clothing items for 1000" you hypocrites would bellow. See you saying you wont wear a $2 cloth, if a pastor had said it, you'd run here open a thread and start typing rubbish.

Excellent response.

Besides, you said the clothes were worth 50k and you got them for 3k. The guy interprets it to mean that the clothes were worth 3k. What kind of math is that? The value of an item is determined exclusively by what is paid for them? I believe the guy's claim that he's a millionaire. I also believe he's a good christian. Only a loving God can make one a millionaire with such level of thinking or skill base.

WinsomeX:
You can't o. It went with Seun Tsunami. But another one has been made that is much better coordinated: see
www.nairaland.com/1790500/word-faith-movements-doctrine-proponents

Always eager to advertise the foolish thread? If it was the most successful thread on NL, as you essentially claimed yesterday, people will know it on their own. Without all this pesky interruptions and interventions. Talk of delusion of grandeur!

WinsomeX:
I am tempted to ask you to take it easy on the vulgar language lest you find yourself again on the verge of loosing your sanity and are forced to take a vacation from Nairaland again.

What you do not realize is that that thread on Word of Faith is the best thing that has happened to Nairaland religion section. All the hitherto hullabaloo on tithes, tongues, etc, are all answered in the question of the origin, substance and essence of WoF. That thread will forever be a reference point and that is why the authors of it are taking there time to build it. When it is built, they will invite us all for the grand opening.

And by the way, the sister thread that led to this one, was opened by a young woman, nannymcphee, who greatly benefitted from that thread you wrongly called "foolish".

Pray, what is vulgar about my language? Your thread is foolish and I don't know how saying so means I'm using vulgar language. And you're the one to teach any person about decent use of language? Only this week alone, you're calling people 'WOF brood of vipers who litter the Lagos/Ibadan expressway.' Wow, sounds like choir boy language. You may not have noticed it, but hardly anybody uses vulgar language in describing others here more than you and your friends.

And you need to learn when people are using humor and figurative expressions. Funny you took my mention of the word 'sanity' literally when it was obvious I was joking. Or did you miss the exclamation mark there? I guess, very soon you'll harp on my reference to popularity in those messages and accuse me of vanity. Chei! You have a point though: one way to maintain my sanity is to do my best to avoid engaging in conversations with you and your co-travelers here.

Oh, and saying your foolish thread mildly affected one person (who continues to worship at a WOF church as we write) is a pathetic claim.

Goshen360:
So, what have I been showing you and people? Movie? I'm very sure you're a smart person and you should have understood my simple point since we've discussed this issue on this forum. But just incase you don't, the simple point is, no where does the scripture include premarital sex as an act of fornication. If you find any, you show us please.
2. Spirituality has nothing to do with premarital sex as condition for spiritual growth. The basis for spiritual growth and spirituality are enumerated in the word. I can't understand why you people can't talk scripture but you all are talking sentiments and emotions.

I don't think I have the time or strength to go through this dance with you again. Just show me where the Bible encourages people to engage in premarital sex or says it's Ok. Just point me to where the Bible says that if two people are committed to each other, they're free to engage in sex without marriage. If there's no scripture to back it up, simply say so. Telling me what is included in the definition of fornication is to argue from silence - which is what you repeatedly reject here. Unless you're do-as-I-say-but-not-as-I-do?

Spirituality has a lot to do with the quality of koral life one lives and sexual immorality is included in the definition of morality. I guess you are ready to quote scriptures to me about what it takes to grow spiritually. Great! Before you do so, just quote the scriptures on the permissibility of premarital sex first. Or are you going to argue for spiritual growth based on silence too?

Processor01:
I am Processor01 and I do not endorse Goshen360's view on this topic.
Christian readers please beware lest you ingest this lie the devil has succeeded in selling to the world.

Could it be the guy is not really serious but simply pulling people's legs? About the last time he was on this unfortunate journey, he chickened out and left some people thinking that he retracted his views on premarital sex. Good thing he's setting the record straight again. Imagine, this is the person often on other people's neck when they propose a practice not explicitly taught or practiced by the early church. He would nullify it immediately based on scriptural silence. Yet, he's eager to establish a doctrine based on silence. After moons of writing, he still cannot point to one scripture where God, Jesus or the apostles asked or encouraged anybody to engage in premarital sex. Or indulge in his cockamamie idea that people can sleep unmarried so long as they're committed. Just show me where the Bible says that and I'll believe you.

Meanwhile, if anybody thinks he can develop and maintain a strong spiritual life while engaging in premarital sex, they fool nobody but themselves. The results will most likely show eventually.

WinsomeX:
Is there something about that video that you do not want us to see?

Or is it the fact that Kenneth Hagin, the grandmaster WoFer, who in his sober moments wrote a book to restore order to a mess that he helped create, is seen in the video reeling around in drunken madness in a so called move of the spirit of laughter?

In case the import of that video is Iost on you, let me explain: Hagin will have us believe that there are excesses in the WoF that must be corrected, while others are left to flourish. Well, unlike others of his best selling books, this advice didn't work. Why because your followers usually imitate your actions and not mere words. If Mr Thompson, or whatever else his name is, was seen in an embarrassing video, it was because his "Baba" had been caught in camera doing worse.

The import of the video is simple: like father like son and it is very relevant to this thread.

I thought you had a foolish thread you claimed would solve all the problems generated by WOF? Why can't you post this video there and hear me complain still? The point, which you know but pretend not to, is that this thread is about a book on prosperity. You can launch all your baseless attacks on WOF relating to that topic. To no avail, of course. But at least, you'd be on point. You are more interested in what you and your ilk do best: scatter a thread so at the end of the day nobody learns anything meaningful.

Let me know when you're done with your empty thread on WOF. It must be such a huge success that you find the time and cannot reist the urge to continue your WOF attacks on other threads.

nora544:
Sorry when I see this video this schould be a pastor. Kenneth E Hagin St Louis 1997 - Holy Ghost - Laughter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL8VCbxWs3k

Is it really hard to employ simple discipline? This thread has a particular focus - a book on prosperity. Why not limit your discussion to that topic? If you want to discuss other things - related or unrelated - there are threads here already for such silly business. Some of don't want to waste our time with all these distractions.

Image123:
@OP, i''ll say the "deliverance" is diabolical. It brings results and the man has power no doubt, but his methods are very questionable. Even you, you're asking questions. Trust in God, repent from evil, call upon God, He still supplies all our needs.

Endorsed.

It may even be that the Op's frend is still under some curse. It looks like there are 2 sets of curses (from the father and prophet) and one may have been removed while the other set stays. The friend may not know it yet until it starts manifesting. That's the way of the devil. He's not called a trickster for nothing. Frankly, I've never been able to understand why people are obsessed with success or wealth. Growing up, I saw a lot of happy people who had little or nothing. Today, I see a number of wealthy people who are miserable. The most important thing is to have Jesus in your life. Even if success doesn't come, no hassles. But the truth is that if you devote your attention to Jesus and what pleases Him, true success and wealth will come, sometimes without sweat. Matt. 6:33.

Gombs:
Thanks for the input...where on earth have you been all the while?

My dear brother, I took a short break from NL - to retain my sanity! Glory to God, I got a few things accomplished in the process. Thanks for noticing my conspicuous absence!!

Candour:
My brother, welcome back from the long absence.
Indeed I'm glad its the way he approached the bible. If that's how our pastors in Nigeria did approach the scriptures, we wouldn't be having 80% of the arguments we are currently having.
Some folks who say something similar like Hagin are accused of abandoning the old testament.

Thanks for welcoming me back, my dear brother! Now I feel special!!

Hagin's position on the application of the Scriptures has been my understanding and approach since the earliest part of my christian walk. It makes it easier to know why, for instance, the ritual laws in Leviticus do not apply to us.

Candour:
In fact, see one part on page 172. I wonder if Hagin copied this from shdemidemi or vice versa. See the portion in bold

"The Old Testament was all the Bible there was for centuries. It was the Bible Jesus quoted from in His ministry. The Old Testament is valuable to me because it teaches me about God, the early history of the world, and how God dealt with His chosen people, the Jews. It contains the Law and the Prophets, the Psalms and Proverbs. I appreciate the Old Testament and benefit from it, but it was not written to me"

I wonder how many times shdemidemi has been crucified for saying the part in bold

That has been the cornerstone of Hagin's and Kenyon's ministry - even before anybody on this thread was born! I can quote from several of his books - way before Midas Touch - where he says that our emphasis is on the NT. In fact, he and especially Kenyon are so Pauline you'd think some of our friends here are his disciples.

Gombs:
Sharaaap already! Quit trolling and start making sense.
your writing is as terrible as any could be, then the senseless write ups makes it the more nauseous. If Hagin was afraid the American followers...Dammit! i can't even make sense from the above underlined.
Bakker left jail 1996, Hagin released a book around 2000, the American Government agency against fraud must have been blind all those years to Hagin's 68years as a minister and never found him wanting. Yet a bitter Austrian lady in her thirties, who has access to only wikipedia and nairaland thinks Hagin was afraid, hence he wrote a book to do what exactly?
Nora , bitte nutzen Sie die Sprache können Sie schreiben in , müssen Sie nicht das Lesen schwierig für mich. dank

@ Op: Good job.

It is outright nonsense to bring Jim Bakker into this discussion.

1. Jim Bakker is not part of WOF. I know some people around here out of ignorance or mischief link Bakker with WOF. It makes it difficult to have an intelligent discussion when people don't even know the basics of what they're discussing. Instead, they're busy hi-fiving themselves when they're writing erroneous stuff.

2. It is preposterous to assume that Hagin read Jim Bakker's book. A more reasonable assumption is that he did not even know of the book. In my WOF church in 1999, the pastor never mentioned Bakker, to my recollection. I don't know any WOF rank and file members that care about what Bakker says or read his materials. Yet, he influenced Hagin! What a joke.


3. Even though Hagin's book came out in 2000, the teachings in that book did not start that year. And the things he preached against are things he knew about and did not endorse all these while. Puttingit in the book, at great risk that his disciples would desert him derves commendation, not condemnation.

frosbel: Spoken like the true religious man that you are.
Fortunately I am not one of your religious adherents who cowers at threats , I wish to discuss important matters , if you cannot provide a good answer then move on.
However , I am really worried for those people who you preach to. Is this how you try to intimidate them when they ask rationale and fair questions ? You do know that this is how Islam operates , right ? i.e you must not ask any questions , just believe . Smh.
Allow me enjoy my liberty in Christ.

Where's the threat? Can you point it out to me? No, I did not threaten you and have no interest in doing so. Apparently, you're afraid of your own shadow. I only pointed out the lie you're basing your position on. And mercifully, you could not defend it. Nor prove that your belief leads to any better outcome regarding human sinfulness than the one you attack.

frosbel: "of his Son (who was born unto him of the seed of David according to the flesh" - Romans 1:3
"The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him." - Deuteronomy 18:15
Reading the scripture above makes it clear that Jesus was to be a direct descendant of David and from the nation of Israel. He was the seed of David.
Now if we say that it was the Holy Spirit that planted this seed in Mary, then we have this connection broken and hence Jesus is not descended from David. But if we say that this seed was from Mary then we have 2 seeds which we know is not possible.
In fact , the bible calls anti-Christ ( and this is not having a go at anyone ) those who do not believe that Jesus was a 100% human being.
Jesus always said that Father was greater than him, he asked us to pray to God and not him, in the garden of Gethesame he prayed for deliverance to the father and because he feared he was delivered. He was like us , he overcame because he revered God and trusted him.
"During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission." - Hebrews 5:7
Also read Hebrews 12.
Jesus is the perfect example of a MAN ( 100% not 50% ) who loved God with all his heart and his neighbour as himself, we are to do likewise and not use the excuse that he was God to keep sinning. The usual argument for those who keep deliberately sinning is that Jesus overcame sin because he is GOD but we cant because we are only human. This is false theology. Indeed we will make mistakes or even sin but the idea is to emulate Jesus and love God utterly and our neighbour as ourself. Of course if we sin, we have an advocate with the Father who pleads on our behalf.
Hope this helps.

You are free to believe what you want about the virgin birth of Jesus, but you don't have to lie about why people believe that Jesus is God. It's not because they want to keep sinning by seeing freedom from sin as impossible for man. Since you started believing that Jesus is a man like you, without the seed of God, have you stopped sinning? Can you show evidence of your sinless life, because from what we see here, you're no better than anybody here on that score?

Some suggest that you contend for the faith and need help. Only the latter part is right. And the help you need cannot come from you. Because you seem so far gone you can't help yourself. The best thing anybody can do for you is to pray fervently, preferably with fasting, for you. It'll be great to see this unfortunate journey of yours end well with great testimony here. Otherwise, it won't be long before you come here denouncing Jesus and the Bible in total. If you can reject the Jesus of the Bible and call what you read in some parts of the Bible a myth, claiming it is so because other Bible authors did not mention it, you're way past dangerous territory.

Brother Copeland has been living this admonition to the fullest. Even though all sorts of attacks - most of which are false - have been directed at him, he refuses to retaliate. Instead, he focuses on what God has called him to do, with tremendous results. That's the way it should be as responding to many of these missiles is to play in the devil's territory. While some of the attackers know full well what they're doing, others may not know that they're doing the work of Satan, the accuser of the brethren.

trustman: Where Scripture is quoted and it is refused what does one does do?
To engage in long-winding exchanges?

I'd rather spend my time engaging with others or conducting more productive exercises than burn my time indulging your silly attempts at aggravation. I thought you guys already have a thread for such nonsense? If you have a scripture that speaks of sickness present it. Don't think everyone here is that gullible to swallow your irrelevant responses.

^^^

Nothing in your post refuted what I said.

1. Sickness as the will of God. Peter said we should suffer. Did he mention sickness there as what we'd suffer? No. He said we should follow in Jesus' steps. Did Jesus suffer sickness? No. Obviously, you can't find one scripture that says that sickness is the will of God. And you have no answer to the assertion that if sickness is the will of God, James would be encouraging us to go against God's will by calling on the elders to pray over the sick to be healed.

2. Timing of death. My quarrel is that your position is that God determines the time of everyone's death, while I said He only does for some people He's given a special assignment. You have no scripture to back your position.

3. So people believing God to live long as He promised them is boasting to you? Feel free to believe what you want but I don't see the boast there. It's God's will for us to live long and so there's no contradiction with James.

alexleo: ^^^Oga you are always wise in your own eyes. Save your long story. God is not a robot. While you make your request to him still make room for his will to prevail. Some of you think you are wiser than God. For me, once I pray for the will of God to prevail it comes out best so I don't know what you are explaining again. Sometimes his will goes in line with my prayers or in contrast but at the end of the day I ll still see that its the best.

Can you show any verse of scripture or practice of saints that supports your position that if you pray and leave the outcome to God, whatever the outcome is God's will? Peter said we should be vigilant that our adversary is looking for whom to devour, adding that we should RESIST him STEADFAST in the FAITH. 1 Pet. 5:8-9. That means that if you do not resist fully, you may be devoured. But that devouring (sickness, disease, death etc) is not necessarily from God or part of His Will. If it were, why did Peter bother writing that portion of scripture? Nobody is treating God as a robot. We're honoring Him by following what He told us in His Word. He has no qualms with that. Why do you?

shdemidemi: Now, you need to understand the Old Covenant the nation of Israel had with God. Self-righteousness was a valid principle on which to approach God under the law. Hezekiah's prayer would almost be ungodly in this present dispensation of grace, he was presenting self-justification, self-righteousness and his own merits.

Romans 3 declared to the church after the resurrection of Christ that none is good, not one. We are all in the cesspool of sin justified only on the back of the righteousness of the only one that is good.




On the contrary, no man knows the detailed will of God. All we know and stand firmly upon is the sure word that says -all things will work together for good to those who are called by God. The day any man knows exactly what tomorrow holds for him is the same day God seizes to be God all by Himself.



These men(apostles) knew nothing about God's holistic plan for their lives. They trusted God's word and thus they were sold out to what they were assigned to do. They never had any a preconceived plan to do miracles but latch on to what God was doing through them by the help of the Holy Spirit at that era of Pentecost(initiation of the church).



No man/no Christian knows God's will for their life like I said earlier, we can only soar with Him as His Spirit leads.

Even in the time of Hezekiah, self-righteousness did not please God. So, I don't know where you're going with that point. It was Isaiah, long before Romans, that said all our righteousness are like filthy rags. God did not see what Hezekiah did then as wrong. Nor will He see it as wrong today.