WinsomeX: I am with DrummaBoy on that post and here is a response to your post.
It is OK if bible teachers divide the bible according to the dispensations that suites their understanding. Some give us two - old and new; some six; others three. But this is the first time I will be hearing of dispensations divided after the persons of the trinity: Father, Son and Spirit. This I believe is error. I will like us to see the bible from two dispensations: old and new, and in all of them the Trinity functioned fully. Jesus said he was sending the Spirit to be our HELPER and not to create another dispensation. Whatever else the church might have become, the gospel we are called to preach is the gospel of Jesus Christ and not of the Spirit. This new dispensation revolves totally around Jesus. It was God that was in Christ redeeming the world. And the Holy Spirit is still the Spirit of Christ. If the gospel we proclaim is the gospel of Christ and not of the Spirit, I again insist that the emphasis of scripture and any preaching on it must be on Jesus Christ and no one else. It is this gospel the power of the Spirit is available to support. And only in proclaiming Christ is God glorified.
Again, our calling is not to "spiritual experience(s)"; our calling is to Jesus. To know him and to serve him. Whatever comes out of it, experience or not, is secondary.
It is true that it will be wrong to anchor a doctrine on one book of the bible. Indeed the other parts of the bible teaches on the Spirit and the writer of that post did say the bible contain a rich theology on the Holy Spirit; John 14 has Jesus teaching on the Spirit; 1Cor 12-14; Romans 8; and many other references to him. But Colossians is unique. If you had referred to the Facebook page on that post, you will realize that it was part of a verse by verse teaching on Colossians, with the purpose of bringing Paul's emphasis out the in it.
Paul had not visited Colossae before, just as he had not visited churches in the world today in the flesh. He had one chance to speak to them and us, and he mention the Spirit once. What else does this imply? It implies that God will have us emphasize what should be emphasized and deemphasized what should. The point is simple, if Paul will not emphasize the Spirit to us and we do, especially as we see with WoF, Benny Hinn, etc, then we are in error.
I do not believe this point belittles the Holy Spirit at all. In fact in Colossians 1: 15-22, Paul lays out the strongest biblical doctrine in the bible on the deity of Christ, which proves the verity of the trinity further and affirms the Spirit as God.
You would be omniscient to claim that you know those who have intimacy with the Spirit and those who lack it. It's best we remain with what is written or revealed and not go on tangent in your bid to scorn.
I'm using the word dispensation in a loose sense.
Of course, God works as One. Note that the Holy Spirit is not just a Helper, as that word is commonly understood. Jesus used that word to say that the Holy Spirit will be His replacement in our midst. There's no competition.
It makes little sense to posit that because the Colossians had one letter, everything important will be contained there. So, the other things about Christian living that Paul taught in other books are not that important, including communion, giving to help brethren in distress, spiritual gifts, the return of Jesus, etc?
So, now I need to be omniscient to comment about your life. But you and your gang tell us what was in Hagin's mind that made him write the book, right? At least in your case, unlike your baseless conjectures about Hahin's motivation, I'm talking based on what you're saying here. You reject spiritual experiences people have and call them mysticism, ridiculous laughter and the like. Saying the obvious does not require omniscience.
Lobeez: I still recommend Gill's commentary on this issue. And I will repeat what I said earlier, vipers don't naturally bite on their prey, they strike very fast. It is very unlikely that what was described was a snake bite. It was simply the snake fleeing the burning wood and curling on to Paul's hands and then Paul doing the most natural thing which was try to shake it off quickly, the snake however may have still wrapped around his arm after the first attempt but finally fell into the fire from whence it ran out. The people knowing how quick and venomous vipers are were certain he must have been struck so waited to see him swell. This didn't happen because by divine providence, God had kept him from being bitten by the viper.
So, while would the Bible record something as simple as what you said? What's the relevance of the story?
Besides, it's amazing to see how many pages devoted to this story here. All in a bid to deny that God can save from snakes?
We have a sovereign and all powerful God, but He can NEVER save any of His children attacked by a snake? If we're saying otherwise, why are we still wasting time on this topic?
Candour: If the bible didn't expressly tell you that Daniel slept overnight in a den with lions yet wasn't bitten, would you have believed it? Wouldnt you have said they probably bit him but his flesh was restored? Why do you think the God that shut the lions mouth couldn't have also shut the mouth of the viper? Do you think it has to be thoroughly dramatic for us to acknowledge the finger of God even when the bible is silent on it?
The analogy is not apt. When the lions did not bite Daniel, the king and people saw it that way and knew what the miracle was. When the snake came on Paul, the people did not conclude that he survived because the snake did nothing to him. Why, because they were expecting him to swell and die, which woudn't the case if they didn't think the viper struck. And when that did not happen, they thought the gods have showed up. That's not the reaction of people who think the miracle was that the vipwer stayed quietly. It's OK for people to say that the people thought Paul was bitten when he was not. But it's not OK to say that the people saw he was not bitten and then thought it was a miracle. Both cannot go together here.
vooks: Some Neanderthal in your camp believes in INSTANT. Anything else is fickle faith
Healing whether instant or not is a function of God's sovereignty and not merely down to FAITH. Paul had faith and his infirmity never left him. Epaphroditus was sick till he nearly died. Timothy's ailments took naturopathy. Trophimus. These are apostles' colleagues and himself and if they fell sick and stayed sick, then there is NOTHING like INSTANT healing or Divine Health BS
Faith and sovereignty are not mutually exclusive. Sleep over that
I just looked up Jesus miracles. Am still waiting for the first to feed 5000 with 5 bread and 2 fish. Before you can even claim to do greater than Christ, please match his miracles first
I never said faith and sovereignty are mutually exclusive. To the contrary, that's the point I've been making. A person that upholds faith is not rejecting the sovereignty of God.
Obviously, you have no Scripture to back your claim that delayed or no healings are based on God's sovereignty. Quit adding to God's Word.
vooks: Sure most miracles and LEAST verifiable. I don't get the Creator to work, I work for the Creator
In other words, you have no miracles to report. How convenient of you to assert that WOF gets fewer mirqacles than they should but don't want to tell us about your own miracles so we can evaluate your numbers too. Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander.
Gombs: You have acute problems with reading and comprehnsion.
3 As Paul gathered an armful of sticks and was laying them on the fire, a poisonous snake, driven out by the heat, [size=20pt]bit him on the hand[/size] .
Oya, run to your sewer, call your board members, go to your Wof thread and declare Wof wrote NLT and MSG translations.
you should be ashamed for saying Paul was not bitten.... Shame on you and Vooks
To me the whole thing is simple: the community members must be utterly foolish to think of Paul as a god if all that happened was that a snake fastened itself on him. Were they seeing a snake for the first time? While they were waiting to see if he would die, why didn't Paul tell them it was no big deal, because the snake just played with his hand until he shook it off?
WinsomeX: When I first read the above, I was almost convinced you had goofed. I was going to read the scriptures again when Grundy provided it here. Indeed that scripture said the snake fastened itself around Paul's hands. It didn't say he was bitten by it. The islanders who were observing him, must have assumed like our WoF friends here that Paul was bitten. But the scripture did not record he was bitten. Now, he could have been bitten but that was not what scripture recorded; what was clearly written was that the snake fastened itself around the hands of Paul and not that it bit him.
I think this has been the problem with these back and forth debates. Reading assumption and preconceived ideas into scriptures and not allowing the bible to speak for itself.
I commend your doggedness in this debate, sir. Well done vooks.
You see the kind of person you are: when you first read the post, you thought he was mistaken. Then you read and believed he's right. But when you want to place the blame, it is on WOFers who cannot read and who have preconceived ideas about Scripture. I'm not saying that he's right. But assuming he is, were you not of the same opinion as the WOFers you attack on the snake issue? If you were not, why did you start your post by saying you thought he had goofed?
vooks: Thank you sir, That is what we mean by God's sovereignty.God has mercy on whom He will. He healed a Syrian of leprosy and left all the Jewish lepers
The moment you realize that it is all up to Him, you don't make some of the arrogant statements we hear from WOFers. They hate the word mercy because it exposes their place as mere mortals and not goDs, they are used to ordering Jesus like he is their small bro. This is blasphemy. It is quite possible the reason WOFers don't achieve as many miracles is because God resists their pride.
Au contraire, WOF has more miracles than all of you. Post some of your own experiences casting out demons, healing the sick and getting God to work. Critics hardly ever do. All they do is attack and attack some more. You certainly misunderstand or misrepresent WOF. WOF loves the mercy of God. What we reject is hiding under it to explain your lack of faith or power or knowledge that would help obtain results.
DrummaBoy: Please consider this from my daily devotionals and meditations. I hope you find it relevant to this thread.
#35. Colossians 1: 8
Colossians 1:8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.
2. Spirit.
It is instructive to note that this verse has the only reference to the Holy Spirit in the epistle to the Colossians.
It is necessary to say this because it is important we lay emphasis on what the bible emphasises and deemphasize what it does also. The bible has a rich theology on the Person of the Holy Spirit and this writer does not deny this. But the story of the New Testament is not about the Holy Spirit but about Jesus Christ, his redemptive works and the graces of God that comes as a result of this. Jesus himself said that the Spirit will not speak of himself but rather glorify Christ (John 16:13-14). And it is only when Jesus is lifted up that he will draw men to himself.
There is an unhealthy emphasis placed on the Holy Spirit today especially among Pentecostals that results in people being deprived of some other rich emphasis of the bible. We find some people extending their pagan devotion to mysticism into Christianity by encouraging practices and experiences that are so called "Spirit inspired". Many of such experiences having no foundation in the scriptures. Our duty as students of the bible is to remain within the written words of the bible and to discard any experience, no matter how spiritual, not found within Holy Scripture.
John MacArthur defined mysticism as "the pursuit of a deeper or higher subjective religious experience. It is the belief that spiritual reality is perceived apart from the human intellect and natural senses. It looks for truth internally, weighing feelings, intuition, and other internal sensations more heavily than objective, observable, external data. Mysticism ultimately derives its authority from a self-actualized, self authenticated light arising from within. This irrational and anti- intellectual approach is the antithesis of Christian theology".
The root of much error in the church today is the result of "new" revelations supposedly from the Holy Spirit, coming not from scriptures but from some subjective experiences usually from the inside of the individual. It comes many times with a "spiritual" tone of "God told me...". Anything God has needed to say are here in the the bible. Our duty is to plead with him to grant us understanding of biblical text and make them relevant to us today. We are not called to go pursuing "spiritual" experiences.
The current dispensation is the Age of the Holy Spirit. Whether you like it or not. Jesus said so Himself in John's Gospel - that He was sending the Holy Spirit in His place. OT was primarily God the Father dealing with human beings. The time of Jesus was the Son doing the same. Now it is the Holy Spirit. Even our hyper-Grace brother here understands this point. You cannot have a rich spiritual experience if you disregard this simple fact. The Trinity works together, but you have to place the right emphasis each time. To anchor your opinion on one book - Colossians - is to prove too much with too little, while disregarding the enormous weight of evidence to the contrary. Those of you that lack intimacy with the Spirit of God should seek it earnestly instead of trying to explain it away or attacking those who do.
vooks: Salvation and healing are as different as day and night. Here is why 3. There are incidences of healing not procured instantly but NO slightest hint of delayed acceptance of repenting sinners. Epaphroditus fell sick and approached death before God had mercy. His healing was not instant. Timothy had frequent ailments and regardless of how you translate the word ailment, it was something God could have dealt with there and then but he didn't. Instead, Paul hit the naturopathy route. Trophimus,Paul's co-worker was too sick to travel with him.
4. So you have two options, explain away these three instances as lack of faith or revise your false belief in INSTANT. Paul's thorn in the flesh I omitted for obvious reasons; you have nothing to say about it
Does the fact that they never received healing instantly void Jesus promise of responding to their faith? Nope, it just points to sovereignty. Faith, prayers and scriptures don't suspend God's sovereignty contrary to your fantasies, it is still up to God and that's why Paul says God had mercy on Epaphroditus.
So you can name ANY man of faith you can think of and I can show you a string of not-so-instant prayers answered or not answered according to his petition
Aren't we mixing up things here? Nobody ever sadi that ALL healings must be produced instantly. The issue of "Instantness" came up only when somebody challenged the assertion that we can have an instant harvest. That question has now been thoroughly answered. Now, you guys shift to sovereignty. So, if somebody doesn't get his healing at all or it is delayed, it is because of sovereignty. Where does the Bible say that? You guys are the one adding to the Scriptures while WOF takes the Word of God as it is written.
Why didn’t God exercise His sovereignty and heal people in Jesus’ hometown, instead of the Bible telling us that their unbelief kept them from their healing? It sure would help those and help establish in the minds of Jesus’ kinsfolk that He’s the Messiah if God would just do many mighty miracles there. Yet, He waited for them to have faith.
Here’s a little assignment for all of us: Look at the healings Jesus did in the Bible and check how many times people told people that the healing was as a result of faith exercised and how many times He said it was about God’s sovereignty or any other rationale.
Maybe, that would help us decide where to place the emphasis.
The above Word of Faith thread actually puts the position of trustman in perspective; especially their very first discuss: Faith in Faith or faith as a force.
Someone summarized Word of Faith as this: The Word of Faith doctrine has more of the New Thoughts doctrine in it than the New Testament. Note the slight deviation from New Testament to New New Thoughts. That slight deviation is the foundational error with WoF. WoF is not entirely false and it is not entirely true; it is a lukewarm gospel fit to be spat out.
If WoF is more New Thoughts and less New Testament, what then is New Thoughts? *Check Wikipedia* New Thoughts doesn't have a strict definition but here are there leading teachers: Robert Schuller, Norman Vincent Peale, Napoleon Hill, and a host of others. These men teach a doctrine called Mind Science. It is the science of achieving success in life that is shown forth through healthy living and wealth, through the use of one's mind. These doctrines are chiefly eastern religion that have come to the west as New Age doctrines. Mind Scientist do not believe in Jesus Christ.
However at the turn of the 20th century, men like E W Kenyon began to adopt these mind science doctrines to scriptures. They teach essentially that the faith that Christ taught about is the same force of faith the mind scientist utilizes to achieve heath and wealth. Kenneth Hagin will later plagiarize much of Kenyon writing as his but added the central scripture Mark 11:24, which Kenneth Copeland once said he thought was Kenneth Hagin's original thoughts. These teachings are known today as Word of Faith (WoF). They are taught today as the gospel of Jesus Christ in many Pentecostal churches in Nigeria including Living Faith, Christ Embassy, Redeemed, TREM, etc?
Towards the end of his life, Kenneth Hagin realized the major havoc his gospel has done to the body of Christ. In a last effort to save the day, he wrote Midas Touch. But it was too late. The damage was done and his followers could not be redeemed. This thread is about Midas Touch but looking at the comments from WoF adherents here, it is apparent why the book is water on the back of a duck for them.
If you believe that WOF is about the "force of faith" and confessions, why do you then claim that Jim Bakker is WOF? Can you show me anywhere he thought in such manner? You see, when it suits you, you claim you know what WOF is about. When it doesn't suit you, you claim WOF is not a body of doctrine and link anybody you feel like including to the group, to advance your agenda.
vooks: Digression. The man at the gate is a terrible example especially for WOFers 1. The man received instant healing WITHOUT any faith from his side. How often do you do that or don't you attribute your failures at playing Divinity to the recipient's faith? 2. The man was not a Christian
Back to the subject, why did Paul's no-resurrection scenario paint Christians as the most pitiable yet they had access to Divine health,Divine Wealth, Happiness and Longevity? Please explain this verse to us
You do realize one can be healed by another's faith, e.g. a preacher's (or an apostle's) faith? In which case, it is still faith, not your sovereignty escape route. Jesus said the disciples could not heal the kid in Mark 9 because the disciples lacked sufficient faith.
Gombs: That's a bitter pill for them to swallow, hence they say "brainwashed". Now these folks would have us listen to their counsel, but not to Hagin or maybe Oyakhilome etc.
Those short videos, i once said it was so because the poster on youtube wanted us to see what he wants us to. For example, the Hagin laugh video, you should see the entire message. It was a Holy Ghost meeting, but some malicious folks cut an excerpt of it for nauseating claims. The below is for the 14th of October
Watch and you'd undestand how they got to the laughing.. the place was charged up bro!...by the Spirit......i quit taking these guys seriously a long time back bro
Don't mind these people. There's no video of Hagin that I'm ashamed to watch. Or afraid of or concerned about watching. The Holy Ghost moves mightily in his meetings and things happen. Those that do not understand it can bother themselves all they want. I recommend his video El Shaddai. One of his best. Yet, there, he's running around the room like a kid. These guys would ridicule it. But those who understand the move of the Spirit absolutely love it. And are mightily blessed by it.
BabaGnoni: Was it not said with pride and self-satisfaction? The achievements and abilities to rub shoulders with Kenneth Copeland or others? - the gallivanting to Texas for the conventions too
Didn't the chap get everything and everyone muddled up except the bit about yall talking about "Baba"? (i.e. WOF meeting with clefo dollar, joel osteen and that they talked about Hagin)
Change of tune, is it now, from you don't bother watching now to you've watched Leroy-Creflo's. Theirs are kids gloves compared to "Baba's" laughing video.
Anyway, you are not just only running away from watching these Michael Jackson laughing videos "Baba, Kenneth Copeland etc " starred in, you are also fleeing from yourself, truth, reason and honesty.
Incomplete information? Yeah, you'll conveniently say that.
Caveat Emptor - Warning notifies a buyer that the goods he or she is buying are "as is," or subject to defects of some sort, the buyer, alone, then is responsible if buyer goes ahead to make purchase
""Baba" doesn't see it as negative like you do but rather it was the fulfilling of prophecy, the anointing which will spread and sweep the country and the world at large promised him
What's the point of checking this forum, for one. - It isn't a competition and no one is keeping tally
You never cease to amaze! Even before our eyes, you want to change facts that occurred here only a few months ago.
1. I mentioned the Copeland convention, not in the context of rubbing shoulders with him or anybody. But as a response to your assumption that if people knew all the bad things you're peddling about Hagin, they would disrespect and discard him. Specific issue then in the deleted WOF thread was plagiarism. I told you that the charges had been out there for many years, yet when I went to the Copeland convention in 2012, people were speaking of Hagin with respect and admiration.
Gallivant to Texas? Sometimes, I wonder whether you choose to think below your abilities. What makes you think the only plausible scenario is that I traveled to Texas? You don't think I live in Texas, for instance? In fact, may be in Dallas or Arlington where I would drive only about 30 minutes to the Fort Worth convention center for the convention?
2. I mentioned Creflo Dolar, Joel Osteen, etc separately from the convention. It was in response to the claim by your comrade in arms that people treat WOF ministers as a pariah. I explained that I had been to meetings by some leading WOF ministers and the audience each time was huge. Again, nothing about rubbing shoulders.
nannymcphee: I believe there are so many roads that leads to Rome!! ie when faced with a challenge, a Christian has many option to tackle it.
He can pray, fast, worship, praise or a combination etc any can work depending on what he was led by the Holy Spirit to do at that time
BUT to say that one can get instant result as a result of one's great faith in all situations is something I will not agree to!!
There is nothing that suggest from the scriptures that Hezekiah got instant result because he had great faith(rather it was Gods mercy at work & the way he wanted things to go)
Where then is the instantness in "intercessory prayers"?
I asked earlier on, the bible shows that Hanah's family went up yearly & I'm sure(even though it wasn't stated) that she went to the temple to pray or at least have been praying year to year
was it just the recorded one that made God answer her prayers?
If yes, does it mean she didn't have faith in all her previous prayers?
As shown from scripture how men defied the laws of nature(Jesus walking on water, his ascension, Philips transportation, the sun being set back etc) I also believe the same can happen in the life of a Christian, YES his faith can make this happen but it's more of Gods mercy & Sovreignity!!
the foundation of this teaching lies in the diety of man & how he can get what he wants & when he wants it, so long as he has the God kind of faith
This teaching is dangerous because God has been left out of the picture, his will has been left out(there is a teaching out there that says praying according to the will of God is praying in the name of Jesus, what's the meaning of this? anything I ask in the name of Jesus with great faith will be granted?)
Hope you get the thrust of my post
No. I do not understand your point.
It depends on what you mean by God’s sovereignty or your understanding of its role in our lives.
You see, the Jews and the Christians both have a covenant with God. The Christians have a better covenant. But when you look at life outcomes of Jews and Christians, the Jews seem to demonstrate the Hand of God or the impact of a covenant more than Christians. The Jews, including today’s Jews, tend to accept what God has spoken concerning his special relationship with them. Acceptance of God’s Word is what faith is, in a nutshell. The Jews easily believe they’re a chosen people and so consider themselves special. Many a Jew seems himself a god-man, i.e. part God and part man and not just a regular human being. The result of this mindset is that we see the Jews with numerous inventions, wealth and power.
The Jews believe that God promised them the modern land of Israel and that after years of being scattered around the world, they would return. They have returned and are still returning. If such promise was made to the Christian, what would most of them say? Oh, God is sovereign. Our returning to the land is not based on whether we accept what God says or not, in other words, faith. No, we have to realize that God is sovereign. So, it may happen or it may not. You’ll never hear such language from any sensible Jew. And we wonder why Christians are living far below what God guaranteed them in His Word?
In summary, there is no basis in the Bible for sovereignty the way some Christians define or use it. The Jew understands that a sovereign God owns the whole earth and decides who He wants to give any part of it. But once He has said He’d give a portion of it to any person, that person has every right to expect that to happen and not worry about God’s sovereignty. But the sovereignty-wielding Christians think otherwise. And thus make God somebody whose Word is not totally dependable. Something they would not do with a human being they respect.
paulGrundy: Study his posts very well, I remember him saying at a thread that he was at a WOF meeting with clefo dollar, joel osteen and that they talked about Hagin. (Can't remember the thread and am trying to find the post).
Besides that he writes as though he recieves the revelation directly from God. Authoritativly, domineering as though the posts are addressed to thousands.
They both write alike, my eyes are on nlmediator too. Even winsomex/Drummaboy cannot stand the wisdom his posts exhumes.
I have been around, just that want to be on low key. I trust you are fine.
My brother, I appreciate your kind words and endorsement.
In reality, I see myself as a student who still has a lot to learn. And I've been learning from the many gifted people here.
Even the detractors on some occasions - admittedly rare - are able to make one or two good points that prove beneficial. In general though, it looks like they are here to remind us of the need to pray more for our many brethren out there and ask God to help them for they know not what they do!!
BabaGnoni: More grease to your elbow but it's no skin off my teeth. I only helped set the record straight by telling a fact that was inaccurately stated.
Address it without the courage to watch "Baba's" Michael Jackson laughing videos - That will be the day!
Setting the record straight, while claiming that I BOASTED? That's some straight record!
And please don't give more ammunition to those who question your reading comprehension skills. That I said I don't click on the videos you guys send here does not translate into the conclusion that I have not seen the videos nor support your assumption that I lack the courage to watch them. It may surprise you to know that these videos exist elsewhere. For insance, I watched the Leroy Thompson-Creflo Dollar money video through a lady in the US that wrote a book on Prosperity. So, don't waste your time making baseless and fruitless assumptions.
It seems to be a stock-in-trade of some of you to quickly make conjectures and then elevate those conjectures to fact, which you then feed to the unwary. Sad.
Still on assumptions, it may shock you that not all that watch the neagitve videos come out abandoning WOF or Hagin. Check this forum, for one.
BabaGnoni: ^^^ No, it wasn't him that was insinuating fraternizing with Kenneth Copeland or boasting he couldn't wait to attend Kenneth Copeland's Annual Convention in Dallas, Texas again. - That was someone else
Yeah, that was me. And it wasn't a boast. Fellowshipping with fellow believers is a thing of joy. And if you think it's a boast, good for you. Nothing to defend. Only trying to set the records straight.
And if you want to know further, I have also been in meetings by the biggest WOF and WOF-related names from Nigeria, including Idahosa, Oyedepo, Pastor Chris, Adeboye, and more.
Oh, and I've not ignored questions posed to me about laughter and warfare. I'd prefer not to derail this thread further and would be happy to address it in a separate thread.
And on angels serving believers, I applaud the excellent contributions made so far. I'll add a few points soon to support the great work already done, God willing.
nannymcphee: Hezekiah getting an instant harvest was a function of his faith abi ?
what happened to Hannah, hasn't she been praying all those years? So the recorded act of her making a vow to God, that brought Samuel was the one that she had great faith abi?
When David prayed & fasted, yet his child died. Didn't he have strong faith to have a harvest?
Paul thorn nko(whatever that torn might have been). Didn't Paul have great faith to cause a change?
Your initial question to him was to provide instances of instant harvest in the Bible. He provided one. Now you're shifting the goal post to God's sovereignty? Please, God's sovereignty has nothing to do with this discussion. All it will do is to take us on a different tangent. E.g., why limit the question of God's sovereignty to those who sowed and had faith? What of those that did not sow or did not have faith? Can't God in His sovereignty provide them with what they need or want, such as healing as He did for Hezekiah that asked?
The reality is that there are many cases of people getting instant answers to prayers, especially as they exercised their faith. The woman with the issue of blood? Blind Bartimeus? Five loaves and two fish? Wine at the wedding? Indeed, virtually every case of healing or miracle by Jesus was an instant response to a need or request.
Let me start with the thread I promised to open to discuss with BabaGnoni (B). I had said I would open a thread which none of you could open t[b]o discuss Eve/Serpent/Sex with him[/b]. It occured to me later that to enter such a discussion I should ask nicely first, like we mostly do here on this forum. B has seen the request and will respond when he is ready. I will wait till then. Until then, it is fine if you continue to discuss the matter in a rabid manner, using it as a means to evade cogent discussions especially when you have run out of thoughts to defend your positions. The discussion will start when he is ready... anyone that doesn’t like it that way should open their own thread or head for the expressway.
By the way, your friends have not told us[b] where the bible tells us to command angels.[/b]
You also still have one of your friends here whose motto in life is to be anywhere where the money is. It reminds me of 50 cents' "Get money or die trying..." philosophy.
What about the one who terms himself[b] a mediator[/b] here but is as bias as bias can be, who cannot explain to us why his idol, Hagin, was laughing hysterically in a video like one on his way to Yaba left.
Shall we forget the early days of WoF revelations when the kiddo in your midst affirmed with E W Kenyon that[b] there is no redemption in the cross. [/b]
Or is it the confusion of Paul rebuking Peter before "them all", which meant a private rebuke [/b]before leaders only. You know, the way C[b]hristian Oyakhilome rebuked his wife in a stormy London meeting. A rebuke that opened him to a divorce proceeding. A private rebuke before leaders indeed.
And Bidam, ah, lest I forget: Jesus was a Pharisee!
You, my friend Image123, have very well avoided controversies only that you think that Paul who "withstood" Peter should not be called a rebuke. To withstand is less embarrassing than to rebuke.
If you search my own threads well, you may find my own minor gaffes too because that's the way all the above should be seen. But hypocrites will keep the log in their eyes and be groping in the dark to removd a speck in B eyes.
What I have written is not a justification for teaching damnable heresies, like Jesus died spiritually (JDS). That's the purpose of the very commendable WoF thread. There is a place for that.
Stay tuned for the discussiin with B... coming soon!
You misunderstand the role of a mediator. He's not one that doesn't have a personal bias. I recommend a good dictionary.
As to laughter, I hate to burst your bubble, but truth is that I don't even bother to watch any of those videos from you guys. If I want to watch or listen to Hagin, I know where to go: my book shelf and other credible places. That said, laughter is a potent, scriptural weapon of spiritual warfare, which has been effective for Hagin, me and others. I thank Bro. Hagin for his teaching on that. Because spiritual laughter inflicts damage to the devil, he hates it. The best he can do is recruit some Christians to deride it with the vain hope that the weapon will be dropped. Fat chance!
WinsomeX: How does Forbes magazine, for example, get their informations from to list out world richest people? This is how they get stupendously rich. They teach blessings as a god. To partake in this blessings, they encourage tithing, firstfruit, prophet offerings, etc, from people. At the close of the day, the minister and his church are rich. Then they invest these riches in real estate, transportation, schools, and all kinds of business ventures. The capital being people's money. The profit theirs. That's the making of the Pastorpreneur.
There's little basis for comparing the Forbes list of the world's richest people with this make-believe list of richest pastors. Information about the richest people on earth is generally publicly available. Take for example, Mark Zuckerberg. Forbes would simply look at the percentage of Facebook stock he owns or even the raw number, say 10 million shares. Then multiply it by the price of Facebook stock. Other properties he owns may also have public information. In the end, you won't capture everything, but the bulk is captured. Even for companies whose stock is not sold on the stock exchange, there are credible valuation tools. That's part of the reason Forbes would never include rich billionaires in Nigeria and other developing countries whose wealth is stolen but whose investments are opaque. Now, who can clearly say that they know what the pastors have invested in and use that to arrive at a figure? Remember, we're not talking of what their ministries own, such as buildings that we can see, but the pastors' private resources.
vooks: Repeat, if these hooligans would be silenced by a simple denial, there would be no need for demanding for evidence. But you know they don't stop at the taunts.
Knowledge of the Law? I pay lawyers whenever I have a need, medical doctors, tax accountants, mechanics,dentists. I hire brains and let my money work for me so your superior knowledge of Law is nothing
Now,grow up and learn to respect your elders you lewd fellow of the baser sort
Thanks for conceding. Let that be a lesson for next time.
vooks: Quit envying my freedom and learn to use your head off NL and may be you can come close to my level of bliss Am too busy to chew case law and besides, it does not add no value to your point. The ONLY reason one would hurl an allegation here WITHOUT PROOF is malice. I said if I kept quiet, mbaemeka would have assumed I was guilty, once I spoke, he never absolved me unlike those cases you are so lamely throwing around. He still insisted.
If silence is proof of guilt, the a mere denial would be proof of innocence. Would you have believed that BabaGnoni never claimed that Eve slept with the serpent if he denied the baseless claims?
Rubbish. Respond to the case. You're pretending you know the law. Now, you're presented with the law, you're shifting ground. Did that case confirm what I said earlier, which you sought to refute, i.e. that there are scenarios where silence provides proof? I made it clear that it was not in all situations. So, your questions are irrelevant.
Envy your freedom? You'd almost kill to have my level of professional freedom and the influence that comes with it. You're probably a tiny businessman that hardly anybody knows about. And I'm supposed to envy you? If only you know who you're discussing with.
Again, admit your ignorance of the law and I'll let you go. Next time, you won't come here pretending you know any law besides what you watch on TV.
WinsomeX: You have not read that thread. Go and read it and maybe repent. That's a good place to start.
You obviously have issues with comprehension. Maybe if you can relax a bit and let out some air, you will be able to read me more clearly and don't forget my earlier advise to you to mind your utterances so as to protect your sanity too.
My point on the allegations you are making is that you guys be responsible enough to prove it like its being done on the WoF thread. Don't just be pointing fingers like school children.
So Jim Baker was not WoF. So what was he? Faith of Word? You must be kidding. Was it not Bakker who co founded TBN with Paul Crouch? What is the overarching messages on TBN? Is it not WoF? The WoF thread reveals that WoF is more of a movement in Christendom than a strict Christian sect with defined doctrines. In fact the confusion with WoF is that it does not have a doctrinal position. So adherents just take an aspect of it and run with. But the baseline doctrine are healing and wealth. Baker emphasized the wealth aspect while others emphasize healing; and others emphasize both. But no where can any one make a list of WoF doctrines. So forget this Baker was not WoF. If you insist however provide us a list of WoF doctrines. Along with that pls answer my earlier question: what bible scripture teaches you to command angels (using "vooks on mbaemeka" style).
My guy spew your insults. It's your trademark and it's water on duck's back for me.
If I understand my bible correctly, I would know that the new testament priority is not in learning distinctions in Christian groups especially when the same bible discourages such infantile groupings or denominationalism. But an informed Christian should know the peculiar characteristics of prominent groups indeed. What I know of the WoF is repugnant enough and it is sufficient for me.
Complete confirmation that your WOF thread is useless. So, any Christian that believes in health and wealth is WOF? Listen, MFM and Assemblies teach both and they're not WOF. Even you do not list their ministers consciously in your WOF attacks. Jim Bakker was AG, not WOF.
So, now is to mind my utterances, not vulgar language? When you couldn't find any?
Where did the Bible command us to name names? Two can play that game, you see.
vooks: Whatever you mean by 'real character issues' silence is never proof of nothing for reasons I have shared. Prove beyond doubt your allegations or shut up. Repeating them is a sign of your conviction yet you have no time to back them up. That's dishonesty really.
Look, mbaemeka falsely accused me of ignorance by claiming that I started that paul rebuked peter in Galatia (instead of Antioch). I could have simply denied but I confronted him. I charged him to adduce proof by way of pointing to the very post I made. He could not. Instead he paraphrased whatever he thought i said and later claimed that was the only proof he had since I had edited my post. So now am guilty of error as well as covering it up after being corrected. When I insisted he provide proof, he aksd me to look it up his posts. This is the kind of imbecillic nonsense we are avoiding of putting one on the defence over another's hallucinations
Denial is not enough for mindless stalkers and detractors
The problem with some of you is that you are full of ignorance but you think you know everything. Silence can prove a case convincingly. That you claim to run some business does not mean you know what you're saying. Why don't you start with this case: Brooks v. Bell, 1998 WL 165024 (Court of Appeals of Ohio, April 10, 1998). When you're done reading it, I can send some 50 more authorities in the next few hours. And in case, you cannot grasp what the case says, this excerpt from p. 4 debunks your nonsense: "We hold that the trial court did not err in finding that Bell met her burden of showing that the transfer of funds was valid. We agree with the trial court that Cavett impliedly ratified Bell's actions. Ratification can be either express or implied. The evidence at trial established that Cavett knew all along that Bell wrote the checks at issue and did not protest or complain, and did not attempt to take away her power of attorney."
WinsomeX: I have to be the one to create the thread because non of you accusing the fellow is man enough to do it.
Why do you need a new thread for that? Is it too hard to deny or confirm something - something you even claim is a minor issue? Which is what it is to you until a WOF minister utters it. And then you link him to any demonic group you can find.
BabaGnoni: But when the leading priests and the elders made their accusations against him, Jesus remained silent. - Matthew 27:12 NLT
But Jesus made no reply, not even to a single charge--to the great amazement of the governor. - Matthew 27:14 NIV
So Herod questioned him at considerable length; Jesus gave him no answer. - Luke 23:9 Net Bible
After feeling threatened and intimidated, finally, some suddenly have found their voices
So, you're Jesus now? If you don't know the relevance of what Jesus was doing there, and think you can use it as a general principle, you shouldn't even be in the religion section. Threatened and intimidated by who? You guys are filled with delusion. I simply do my best to avoid you.
WinsomeX: Bidam will have me apologize for calling his accusations his "inventions". Bidam, I apologize for calling it your invention. However since we do not have the quote where BBG made the alleged statement, I say this that though the accusation cannot be called an invention exactly, it is remains unverifiable and an allegation BC there is no quote on nl like that with BBG name on it.
Now, let me let us into this. I listened to a minister teach about Noah and that son of his that saw his unclothedness. The minister proved from that scripture that his son actually abused him sexually. Now some may believe this or they may choose not to; whichever way it is a theological point that has no relevance to the Christian life. That's the way I see the Eve had sex with serpent doctrine.
DrummaBoy, trustman and BabaGnoni, on the other hand, have so far on the WoF thread, discussed 16 damnable heresies in both doctrine and practices of the Word of Faith. Assuming for a second that BBG actually believes this doctrine of Eve had sex with a Serpent, that will make the scores 16 to 1, heading to 20 to 1. Even the 1 is unfounded, unverifiable, unrelated to the Christian stand in life or death and it's hopelessly baseless.
It is left to Bidam, Image123, mbaemeka, Gombs, and nlmediator to open a new thread and discuss the matter like responsible people would. An example has been set by the trio I listed above and the three of them have set out to discuss 20 reasons why the WoF doctrine is false. It will be the height of irresponsibility and sheer laziness if one or some of the five aforementioned WoF symphatizers cannot make out time to discuss a doctrine they feel is worth mentioning all the time, especially when they are under the heat.
I do not believe Eve slept with a serpent. If BBG believes it, I would love to hear his views on a separate thread. If he is wrong, its our duty to point it out to him like he does with WoF and I trust that he will repeal the doctrine.
If however any of the noise makers about Eve having sex with a Serpent are not man enough to open a separate thread to discuss it civilly with BBG by the end of today, I will open that thread at 9am tomorrow to begin a Q and A with BBG on the said doctrine. I will moderate the thread and God help any WoF symphatiser come there and spew any rubbish out and you will see me at my best.
EOD.
What have you proven in your WOF thread? Regurgitating allegations by people is no proof. Allegations were made against your friend and you wanted others to prove him innocent. Yet, you take allegation against WOFers as gospel. The WOF thread is meaningless. To give you a hint: did you use Jim Bakker as cornerstone of your condemnation of WOF prosperity teaching and practices? You presented him as a WOF minister who fell and repented. Well, that's an epic fail because Bakker is not WOF. It's like me writing a book about Nigeria as country of 419ers but my major character whose practices I denounce is from Ghana. Would any reasonable person take such book seriously? The truth - and no insult is intended - is that you're theologically immature and don't know differences between different Christian groups. Your first order should be to take a few years to learn before you take on assignments that are above your pay grade.
vooks: There certainly were a discussion about Eve and the serpent and BabaGnoni participated in it a few months ago. It helps if he can simply confirm of denied that he ever claimed or agreed to claims that Eve had sex with the serpent.
I have noticed a hesitation to admit publicly beliefs we hold to privately out of the fear of being castigated. mbaemeka attempted to blackmail me by reminding me that I once said that Christ ascended ONCE and that the double ascension theory is pure trash. He failed because I have no apologies for stating that. The same negro claimed that WITHOUT his consent Jesus would not take him home meaning he has the keys to his immortality in his consent .
WOFers are at pains to dissect the strange devilish laughter videos starring Hagin, theyd rather trade insults than justify these things yet they believe in them. I noted the same dithering over Firstfruits. They will go as far as misrepresenting Hagin's position on the matter. Still, they opt to be incoherent with regard to commanding Angels teaching and refuse to be drawn into discussions on the subject.
So, to all participating in this thread, can we have some minimal honesty in confessing our beliefs or we abandon them all together? What's the point of clinging to embarrassing indefensible stuff? That's cowardice
Your last paragraph is the right summation. Trying to shield the guilty through some legal mumbo jumbo has no place in the Body of Christ.
vooks: Arguments from silence are notoriously unreliable. In the Gospels, seldom were names named whether for good or evil...the healed lepers, the woman with issue of blood, the Centurion and so forth. So Jesus not naming objects of his rebuke or there being no record of such don't mean much, it does not help WOFers in shielding their goDs
You're missing the point. He's the one that says he can use silence to make his point. Suddenly, he is abandoning the standard. What changed? That's what you should be asking him.
vooks: BabaGnoni was sarcastic in the only thread that was ever produced by another dumbo Gombs. Burden of proof remains with the one making a claim so Trustman or whoever silence is no proof of nothing. Logic 101. I have been called Shndemidemi here by Gombs and I felt like I could not dignify his low IQ by refuting or agreeing with him. Silence means a lot more than guilt sir!
When it comes to real character issues, silence is proof of wrongdoing. Even the law that places the burden of proof on the person making the allegation provides that one is liable in some situations when they keep silent, e.g. When they should disaffirm.
Christianity Etc › Re: The Midas Touch- A Balanced Approach To Biblical Prosperity - Kenneth Hagin by nlMediator: 4:16am On Nov 04, 2014
.