₦airaland Forum

mbaemeka:
You are intentionally misunderstanding him. Peter got the confirmation of their salvation by the Acts 10&11 accounts. This was before he narrated Acts 15. Why does it matter? Because up to that point, the Jews believed the gift of the Holy Spirit was for them only. So in seeing the Gentiles receive that same gift, they were certain they were saved.

Thank you o jare! His rigmarole was getting frustrating. Glad he has seen the light now!?!

vooks:
Acts 15:8-9 (ESV)
8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith
Actually, the Holy Spirit confirmed to them not Peter. Anyway, don't push your meanings onto scriptures. Numbers. can mean anything and at best they show effectiveness of what you are doing not the accuracy of your doctrine.
Cheers bro

Yes, it may show effectiveness of what you're doing consistent with doctrine. Not always. But not never, either.

And you're quoting the wrong Scriptures. The right place to look is Acts 10 and Acts 11.

Acts 10:44-47:

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

And in Acts 11:15-18, it was confirmation to Peter and those not present:

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

vooks:
It doesn't confirm nothing. Peter had been sent specifically by the Holy Spirit to teach them salvation. He never needed any other confirmation. The fact that he had a vision of the clean and unclean animals was enough.

Ha ha, but Peter was sent by God to preach to Cornelius' household and you agreed it was confirmation when the Holy Ghost fell on them? You're withdrawing that now? In fact, Peter himself saw that as confirmation and said so. That's also what convinced the apostles that were not there with him when he narrated the story to them. The vision served its purpose in making him go there but what happened there was what confirmed it to him. As I said earlier, feel free to believe what you want.

Goshen360:
No, you express this faith BY BELIEVING in what's already done ONCE AND FOR ALL TIMES. The substance of our faith is the evidence of resurrection and that the blood was already shed. That's why it is said, faith is the EVIDENCE. When a lawyer appears before a Judge with this evidence of ours, there's no more case in the court room of God.



That's wrong application of faith in the finished works. It's pleading the blood of Jesus AGAIN to redeem yourself and for forgiveness. It's already available for redemption and forgiveness. When people make a practice of pleading the blood, they are not expressing their faith but using their faith to achieve what is already achieved - again, the blood is already shed.



Your argument is FAITH....the evidence, plus you're heirs and partakers of divine heritage. As sons of God, you have a legal right to God's heritage, not pleading or sprinkling the blood as another ritual like the people of OT.



Where do you place this scriptures then?

King James Bible
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Acts 2:42



I was part of church gathering that do all of that but I did it when I didn't know better. I was also part of a church gathering that the Holy Spirit moved mightily in our worship and praises when we sing songs without musical instruments. So, I understand it not the musical instruments but the Spirit of worship\praises to God. I can manage myself if I am in a gathering where they do such, not necessarily that I do such or will do it based on my understanding.

Besides, there are "indication" in scriptures the Apostle(s) might have danced\clapped...if they sang songs in worship because dancing is synonymous to singing\rejoicing\praises but on the musical instruments, if I ever become a pastor leading God's church, I do not think musical instruments will be part of our worship to God because worship is in truth and spirit. However, I do not have control over God's people if I'm not the Pastor leading the church and I won't stop them doing it when I come to worship in a place like that but it doesn't mean I agree they are doing something right.

Now that I have some free moment, let me revisit your position on clapping and dancing. The apostles never did such. Making an assumption and calling it an indication does not cut it. It's simple knowledge that people can sing without clapping or dancing. When God told the Israelites in The OT to clap, He knew He could have told them to sing and then expect them to clap. But He gave express instructions on clapping. Show me similar instructions in the NT by the apostles. There is no basis in scripture or real life to your claim that dancing is synonymous to singing. I can play a similar game and claim there are indications that Abraham's family tithed or that the apostles pled the blood but you'd be the first to reject it.

Now, that's not to say that clapping or instruments are bad. There are examples that musical instruments are used in Heaven, as Book of Revelations say a number of times. And the OT examples (Psalms) show that clapping and use of instruments are not bad. I see nothing wrong in copying from the OT if it does not contradict the NT nor would I reject something that goes on in Heaven if it's not prohibited here on earth. The problem is some of you reject everything not done by apostles but when presented with uncomfortable examples, you start dancing around.

Same thing you did with justifying sex before marriage even when the apostles taught or did no such thing. Why not follow their example in that regard? Or can you show an example of another apostle that lived and slept with a lady he was not married to? BTW, I know your answer already.

vooks:
No. Coming to Christ is not confirmation of nothing, just stated as a matter of fact

So many things are stated in the Bible as a matter of fact. Like Jesus telling Zacchaeus that salvation has come to his house. To you it may not be a confirmation of anything, because the word 'confirm' is not used. To me it confirms that all types of sinners, including tax collectors can be saved. You're free to see the Word as you choose.

^^^^

On musical instruments, I wanted you to say if it's valid or invalid and you have done so now.

On praying for the sick, the person pleading the blood can do exactly what you did. You're both expressing your faith in the finished work. You simply do not verbalize some aspect of the finished work -blood - while the other person does. E.g. "Father, I thank you that because of the blood shed on Calvary I'm healed. I plead the blood against this sickness, etc. I believe I'm healed because your word says so."

Goshen360:
No, you express this faith BY BELIEVING in what's already done ONCE AND FOR ALL TIMES. The substance of our faith is the evidence of resurrection and that the blood was already shed. That's why it is said, faith is the EVIDENCE. When a lawyer appears before a Judge with this evidence of ours, there's no more case in the court room of God.
That's wrong application of faith in the finished works. It's pleading the blood of Jesus AGAIN to redeem yourself and for forgiveness. It's already available for redemption and forgiveness. When people make a practice of pleading the blood, they are not expressing their faith but using their faith to achieve what is already achieved - again, the blood is already shed.
Your argument is FAITH....the evidence, plus you're heirs and partakers of divine heritage. As sons of God, you have a legal right to God's heritage, not pleading or sprinkling the blood as another ritual like the people of OT.
Where do you place this scriptures then?
King James Bible
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Acts 2:42
I was part of church gathering that do all of that but I did it when I didn't know better. I was also part of a church gathering that the Holy Spirit moved mightily in our worship and praises when we sing songs without musical instruments. So, I understand it not the musical instruments but the Spirit of worship\praises to God. I can manage myself if I am in a gathering where they do such, not necessarily that I do such or will do it based on my understanding.
Besides, there are "indication" in scriptures the Apostle(s) might have danced\clapped...if they sang songs in worship because dancing is synonymous to singing\rejoicing\praises but on the musical instruments, if I ever become a pastor leading God's church, I do not think musical instruments will be part of our worship to God because worship is in truth and spirit. However, I do not have control over God's people if I'm not the Pastor leading the church and I won't stop them doing it when I come to worship in a place like that but it doesn't mean I agree they are doing something right.

Your response was extensive but simply missed the simple question I asked: how do you express your faith? Let's say somebody is sick. He knows that Jesus won the victory over sickness. To get that sickness to leave his body, what does he do? Walk me through the steps. He just says in his mind, "I believe" and the sickness leaves?

Saying that pleading the blood is trying to win the war is your own understanding. Or the understanding of those who abuse the practice. It's like me saying that when you confront a situation like sickness by believing in the finished works of Jesus that what you're doing is fighting to win a victory that's already there. My saying it does not make it so.

On musical instruments, you're free not to use it. Nobody says that without them, you cannot effectively worship God. The simple answer you've avoided is: is it an invalid practice seeing that the apostles never did it? Saying that you can tolerate is neither here nor there. After all, you can also choose to tolerate those that plead the blood. But you came out to declare it wrong, because the apostles didn't practice it. Why not do the same with instruments instead of saying you'd tolerate it?

vooks:
Sure

Good. But when Peter preached that same period and thousands came out for salvation, it was not God confirming Peter's message?

Goshen360:
Again, the point is, faith that accesses what is already done. We don't use faith to do what is already done. It's is faith that overcome the world, not pleading the blood that's already shed. None of the Apostles went about pleading the blood.

You make it look like faith is some abstract concept. How do you express this faith you parrot - by just claiming you have faith? When people plead the blood of Jesus, they're expressing their faith in what Jesus did as a basis for the manifestation of what they need. They're presenting their arguments for why they deserve it, just as lawyers do and just as God wants His children to do. The apostles need not do it for it to be valid. As I asked the other brother, do you believe we should stop clapping in church, dancing to songs or making music with instruments in church since the apostles never did any of those?

vooks:
You almost got right.
Nowhere are we told that God CONFIRMED nothing with numbers. I may be wrong. Please show it
you are free to imagine all parameters of 'confirming' the word....but you confuse yourself when you apply that outside the four corners of your church

When Peter preached at Cornelius' home and the Holy Spirit fell on the people, was that a confirmation by God of Peter's message of salvation?

Hanibal:
Alrite... Im sorry
But the bottom line is.. no Apostle ever used it .

Ok.

So, you only do what the apostles did the same way they do? Do you clap your hands when singing in church? Do you dance? Do you use musical instruments in church or elsewhere?

Goshen360:
In our own case, the case is already won. We don't plead the blood to win our case, we appear as a victor that their case was already won and we've been declared as overcomers.

Pleadings can be used by lawyers to enforce their victory and to enjoy the fruits of the case they have already won. Let's say Debtor is owing the bank. Bank goes to court and obtains judgment against Debtor. Yet, bank has not received the money. The process of getting the money in its 'pocket' may still involve filing pleadings. The people pleading the blood of Jesus have the victory already. But in the physical, they do not have it, hence the resort to ways of making the spiritual reality become physical.

Goshen360:
That verse is not saying we overcome BECAUSE we plead the blood of Jesus......that is a religious interpretation we were all taught, we need to listen to others and use scriptures to interpret scriptures. It's dangerous to read "into" scriptures - use scriptures to interpret another scriptures. There's no stand alone in scriptures.

Go back to the context of that verse, they overcame BECAUSE the blood of the Lamb WAS ALREADY pleaded or shed, NOT because you shouting, I plead the blood. What's the "word of our testimony"? Was that also talking about giving testimony in church gathering? If that was it, is it the testimony you give that guarantees victory\overcoming or the victory\overcoming already took place and your testimony is saying what already took place?

Bottom line, we should stop abusing the application of the blood of Jesus.

The abuse is not in pleading the blood of Jesus. The abuse may be in how people go about it. Pleading the blood of Jesus is doing what lawyers do to win a case. They file pleadings.

Hanibal:
No apostle ever used the blood of Jesus to do battle...they only used his name and his word: his blood is for our redemption.
The question should have been, who turned the blood of Jesus to a weapon?
And correct answer will be: African Prayer warriors/Apostles/pastors.

That's an ignorant and incorrect answer. Oyinbo preachers have been pleading and continue to plead the blood of Jesus. Attributing it to Africa is groundless.

vooks:
Numbers and Miracles mean NOTHING for these reasons;
1. False religions can also boast of numbers and signs

2. MAJORITY of those turning to Christ are not drawn by the miraculous. I was not drawn by the miraculous

3. If numbers and signs vindicate a minister of the true gospel, then the converse is true; small numbers and NO signs are marks of a false gospel.

4. Signs and wonders do not necessarily turn people to Christ. Read Matthew 11:20-24

5. Paul was wearied by chronic sign seekers at the expense of the Word 1 Cor 1:22

6. The growth recorded in Acts was the ENTIRE church. Now it is sectarian, Oyaks vs Oyedepo vs Adefarsin.

Once again, why are numbers thrown at us? It was a noble thing for Bereans to examine if what Paul said was so. Now it is envying unmatched record.

Everything does not have to be “either or.” Large crowds are not the ultimate measure of truth nor are small crowds. Yet, each counts for something and can help us ascertain the truth by playing a confirmatory role. Rejecting large crowds because some false groups have large numbers is intellectually dishonest if you are not willing to accept the corollary (absurd, BTW) that some false groups also have small numbers and thus small churches are also false as a result.

Miracles alone do not draw people to God neither does teaching or preaching only. We can have both. In Acts 13:12, immediately after Paul caused Elymas the sorcerer to go blind, the Bible records that the proconsul got saved seeing what had been done and believing what had been preached.

Some people would rather let us rely on their interpretation of the Bible, laced with fancy statements and spiced up with entries from some Greek dictionary to determine what is true doctrine. But that’s not what the Bible says. Sometimes, the confirmation will have to come from physical evidence, including numbers and miracles. God could easily have confirmed the truth of Peter’s early preaching without adding thousands to the Church. But He chose to do so. We have no right to ignore such precedent. If people question whether God still heals, the proof is not simply by interpreting the Bible. It also includes evidence. As Jesus said, there is evidence that accompanies those that believe, including love, signs and wonders.

So, instead of arguing ad infinitum, we can go to God in prayer and ask Him to confirm His Word. That’s what I did recently when I had a challenge from the usual source about whether God still heals. Even though I can testify to the fact that God heals in our day, the challenge was strong. I asked God to confirm His position. The result was an extraordinary healing a few days later of a condition that 2 different doctors in separate places had said was incurable. This happened only a few months ago.

I guess I’m supposed to ignore all of that and spend countless hours listening to mumbo jumbo by some "scholar"?

Happy Birthday, Man of God! May the oil on you remain fresh to fulfill the Lord's purpose of destroying the works of the devil. Amen.

mbaemeka:
Mr A said God called him into ministry. Mr B said it wasn't true, that he was called by God almighty into ministry and not Mr A. Mr A then said if God truly called you he would back you up with the necessary credentials that he usually backs those he sent and since you do not have any of the signs we can conclude that you were not sent- you simply went. Mr B began quoting "false signs and false prophets shall appear..."
Question, what is Mr B's talk if not a cheap excuse?
Let me tell you why the numbers are important sometimes; it is because if the message being preached by CEC or WOF as a whole attracted only a few people the critics would not care. They would say "he is preaching a false gospel that's why nobody is listening to him". But now that the message is being heard by the world over it becomes frustrating to the traducers. I can give you a real time example. In my own branch of CEC in Nigeria we had just about 29 members on a Sunday service. This was like 10-12 years ago. There were a couple of good churches around us at the time and the least of them had close to 400 members on a typical Sunday.
Every now and then some of the leaders of those churches will visit the Pastor of my church and advice her to stop wearing trousers. Some told her it was an instruction from the lord while others were honest enough to say they were simply passing a piece of advice. The pieces of advice seemed to range from one of this four things: a) you let women wear makeup and this pisses people off who want to come to church b) you focus too much on feel good messages and you neglect the aspects of sin and the end time c) they are always advertising miracles and hero-worshiping the Pastor d) they are always talking about money money and giving giving etc.
My Pastor always thanked them politely for their counsel but she continued to minister complete doses of the whole counsel of the word as Paul (by the Holy spirit) admonished us to.
Few Years passed (and as I type this), we are the largest word church in my vicinity. It was now I began to understand that God doesn't need many members to do any work that he wants. What he asked us to do in the NT, is to obtain grace for the task ahead and that is what we have been doing. There was a time the Pastor announced that we had imminent plans of increasing capacity to accommodate new members and renovate the building. Just a rough estimate of what was required and people began speaking in tongues. One who is Carnally minded would begin to say "if everybody gives so so amount we might get half of the total required" but that is man's way of thinking and not God's. One brother stepped up and dropped a cheque and it was the total amount. Those of us who have spiritual sensors and know that the things of God aren't about 'contributions' didn't let him get blessed alone- We still gave as though it depended on us- each one as he had purposed in his heart. If I begin to mention all the financial testimonies we reaped I would be accused of boasting.
Anyways, our beloved brothers in christ that stayed around us began to change their talk. We started hearing that we were 'sinners playing church'. Some others called us a fellowship of sinners whose success was as a result of the same things they claimed was millitating us in timepast. The big cars that parked around the church became loot from tithes and firstfruits. The large crowd to them was elicited by miracle adverts and feel good messages and the renovations were from contributions from the gullible sheeple.
You are damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Now the standard of being a true gospeler is in being scandal-free. Jesus' words that there would be no woe to false prophets have been conveniently swept under the rug. Now that people are being added to the church it has become "narrow is the way". When your gospel attracts no one at the start, you are false. When it attracts people later you are false. When they see no one healed they say 'no one gets healed it is fake'. When they see people get healed they say 'too many people get healed it is fake'. If they ask you about yourself and you say don't focus on me, focus on Jesus that I am presenting to you they will say he is too secretive he has something to hide. If you tell them about yourself they will say you are taking the glory for yourself and giving none to God.
Jesus said they complained about his own friends, dressing and feeding habits and in turn complained about a polar opposite- John the Baptist's as well. They want you to dance when they dance and cry when they cry. They know everything that is wrong with the church but will not offer what is right. They will not lift a pin but will give men heavy loads to carry. Everyone is right or wrong based on their own little standard. There is nothing new my dear. Absolutely nothing new.

Excellente!

Candour:
@the 1st bolded, do you have anybody who has remotely insinuated that Christ wants the message restricted?

@the 2nd bolded, the Catholics claim a population of 1.2billion worldwide, do you think they're all lost? CEC claims a population in millions, do you think they're all saved?

@the 3rd bolded, once again I ask. Can you point to one moniker that has remotely suggested that christians shouldnt spread the gospel message to the whole world? Mention it so i can join you in correcting the person.

I've always used the case of Christ to buttress his statement below

Matthew 7:13-14 KJV
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: [14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Christ preached to thousands yet only 500 were around just before his ascension and only 120 waiting in the upper room for the holy spirit, do you think he was a failure?

Rev Sun Myung Moon founded the unification church in the Koreas (a mega church) and also prospered greatly whilst at it, is/was he also doing the work of the kingdom?

I like your Jesus example. If somebody preaches to large audiences and has only 20 people in his church, he can use the Jesus example to respond to those that claim that he doesn’t have a large church. Even though there may be other factors, e.g. he may have a nasty attitude, he has a legitimate claim to that excuse. But if somebody can only muster an audience of 20, say on a monthly basis, he needs to find out why people are not coming to listen to him. He has no legitimate claim to the Jesus example you gave. That’s the point you should bear in mind when you want to defend those whose blogs record only minimal visits. Tell them to see if they can increase their traffic, mindful of the fact that not all the visitors will receive their message. Encouraging people to hide under the excuse of broad and narrow way as you quoted is not right.

Regarding the number of people in the churches you mentioned, I used the expression “truly saved.” Even the leaders of these churches know that not all their members are truly saved. So, my focus is on getting many people truly saved because even if we have 1 billion such people that still qualifies as narrow gate and few being chosen.

BTW, I do not believe that Christ Embassy ha anywhere close to a million members, let alone millions. Their largest church outside Nigeria is South Africa and last I checked, it claimed an attendance of 40,000 members. In the U.S., it may be a total of 5,000 members from the various branches at the moment. There is a lot of room to grow; that’s why we need to encourage them in their global campaign, not attack them unnecessarily.

vooks:
The best example is William Branham. Am sure you know how disappointed his adherents were when he failed to resurrect. Obsession with rapture is not a preserve for the WOF movement. Jehovah's witnesses have been at it long before the 60s.

Paul at not time expected Christ to return while he was still alive. Am sure you have in mind the resurrection verses in 1 Cor 15 and Thessalonians. His attitude was Christ CAN return during our lifetime not Christ WILL. When you say Chriat WILL,you are indirectly placing a time on his coming. If you are 50 years young, you are saying He will return in the next 60 years max. Here is one such man. A crowd pull for sure. https://www.nairaland.com/2002872/here-prophet-claiming-malachi-4s

There is a recurring theme of 'impact'. Who has had more impact between WOFers and non-WOFers? If impact means pulling most crowds, then WOFers win hands down. Does that vindicate their message? If it does, then Islam is a true faith. The 'impact' theme is basically some subtle blackmail, 'you are too few, you can't possibly criticize them because they are too big'. Watch it

Thanks for making my point. Let anyone feel free to point out where WOFers were claiming that Jesus WILL return in their days. What I've seen christians - WOF or not - do over the years is to look at events around us and think the end is near. Sometimes, it evokes and invokes a sense of urgency that seeks to take the message of salvation to many people to save them before the opportunity is permanently lost. To make a false claim about WOF to satisfy some fanciful thoughts has become a pastime of some.

In terms of impact, you miss the point. First off, Islam does not come into the discussion. They do not win souls by preaching. They're growing by force, bribes or births. Second, Islam confirms that multitudes will choose the broad way. Choosing the broad way is different from widely disseminating your message.

At no time did Jesus want us to get the message only to a few people. He said the message will be preached to the end of the world before the end comes. Unlike those who link small crowds coming to hear them preach to Jesus' statement about the narrow way, Jesus said no such thing. His own ministry confirmed it. He had thousands coming to hear Him. His disciples got the message to thousands. They did not hide under any narrow way excuse. If your message is not getting to many, e.g., nobody is visiting your blog, it's not necessarily because narrow is the gate. It could be your message is nothing or you do not know how to get it across.

Narrow way simply means that you'll get to many, but only a few will accept. So, you can't use that as an excuse for explaining why you're not getting to many first and jumping to the fact that they did not choose you. Also, what is the definition of "few" and "narrow"? In a world of 7 billion and counting, 1 billion truly accepting Jesus is less than 20 percent. That's narrow, as it leaves 80 percent out, yet we're not anywhere near that. Or you guys think it's only narrow when only 1 percent accepts?

Finally, if you guys did not care about getting your message to many, why are you at NL that has a large audience? Why not find a small Naija-oriented site that reaches a few hundreds? That sure is narrow.

BabaGnoni:
^^^
Who's been looking and who's trying the convincing

The olive branch (i.e. stepping in when it is absolutely necessary) is a welcome, mature, healthy and good idea

Ok. Advice well taken.

I meant start (not still) looking. I've corrected it. It was in reference to your 'piece of work' comment in which you seemed to suggest the expression is used for beautiful things, like fine range rovers. Well, not in the context I used it. The vernacular side.

^^^^^

What's next, you hear that Denzel is a baaad actor and you start looking for all the bad actors you can find and then try to convince us Denzel does not belong to their class? Man, you need to be more familiar with the vernacular.

I agree with you on one thing though: some of these banters are not very necessary and lead to more fights. I should go back to my default mode of ignoring some people and some things around here. And stepping in when it is absolutely necessary.

BabaGnoni:
What is going on here?
Have I missed some action?
Who has been thinking BabaGnoni was WinsomeX?
Not too long ago someone too was thinking BabaGnoni and vooks was same
Then it became shdemidemi is vooks
- suspicious minds? paranoia?

I doubt that anybody ever said or even insinuated such. The guy needs to put his imagination to better use.

BabaGnoni:
I never defended Myles Munroe but highlighted the fact that I have never and wasn't at any time interested in Myles Munroe's "Motivation, Leadership and Self Help" teachings or enterprises
My main and only interest in Myles Munroe, was his eye-opening teachings and explanations of the Good News of the Kingdom of Heaven or Kingdom of God
- I see no one teach and explain it easily and well the way he did

There is no where on that thread I prevented attacks or stopped attacks on Myles Munroe

I made remarks to the effect that Myles Munroe never classed or called his "Motivation, Leadership and Self Help" teachings or enterprises, the gospel.

and also remarked, for good reasons, that, as for Myles Munroe's capers, that will be for God or "America" to know
- maybe next year, two years time, five years or ten years time, we can talk about them

Isn't your comrade in arms a piece of work? He neither knows exactly what Myles taught or what you said about it, but he's ready to pounce! Lord, that guy's arrogance flowing from ignorance is nauseating. Sad.

WinsomeX:
One of the saddest realities that has befallen the WoF movement is death. When it was thriving in the 60s, many of them thought they will live till rapture. But alas here they are, dying one after the other.

.

Do you have any evidence for the above error or is it further proof of your ignorance? WOF was thriving in the 1960s? WOF teachers thought they'll live till rapture (in any way different from what christians since Paul have thought)?

The reason some of you have little impact is that you don't want to make the right investment in educating yourselves about important things about life. Once your submissions are riddled with factual or theological errors, people have little time to pay you mind. When nobody visits your blog because of the ignorance you espouse, you and your supporters run to the Gospels to misuse the scripture about narrow way and few being chosen. That scripture is not about reaching a few but about a few responding AFTER you have reached them. But you critics are hardly reaching anyone.

^^^

I respect Myles. It was mainly out of respect for him and the agony of his loss especially under such tragic circumstances that I stopped posting here since I heard of his death last Sunday night. I was deeply offended when that lady from Europe posted an old poster of Myles to attack him. But I thank God for the restraint that made me ignore her post.

Regarding seeing good in WOF, where is the proof? How many topics in almost 30 topics in your WOF thread is devoted to the "Few Good Things of WOF"? I assume None. How many threads have you and your cohorts opened to discuss these good things? Zero. In fact, if any such thread is opened, like this one, you all do your best to squash it.

Yes, I know you've been blessed by WOF. That's why it makes little see for the turn you've taken to join hands with those who think that WOF is false gospel and therefore anathema.

Regarding your statement that I see everything as right in WOF, you obviously spoke out of ignorance as you know very little about me. My response here has been primarily about attacks on WOF that I think are wrong or unfair. That does not mean I endorse everything I hear and have said so here in the past. [In fact, I'm happy that WOF is not perfect because perfection should be reserved for God]. But I certainly won't join in the bandwagn of those who would use any occasion to discredit the fact that God uses His vessels today to heal, deliver, empower and enrich.

The hullabaloo that has arisen over a healing video here recently exposes the disgrace and bankruptcy of this critical standpoint.

BabaGnoni:
Just like Father Abraham told Lazarus, if they wouldnt pay attention now or take notice of the warnings now "writing the book, pastoring the church, preaching the gospel the way it ought to be preached... then come tell us to learn from you" would have no benefit

What a cop out! And misusing the Scriptures to boot!! Abraham clearly stated that the gospel is being preached on earth the right way and that if Lazarus' brothers won't listen to the preachers on earth, they won't listen to one coming from paradise. So, be the preacher Abraham had in mind as preaching the correct gospel. Abraham said nothing there about critics.

Gombs:
When asked a brilliant question on how he'd advice a world leader, say obama calle d him and asked "WinsomeX, how do I fix falling crude oil price?" WinsomeX will immediately start preaching the gospel and asking for those who'd give their lives to Christ.
.

Right on point.

nannymcphee:
we agree that some ministers have done and are doing the above points listed, but we are talking about Dr Myles Munroe for now. you are grouping everyone under this WOF umbrella

I have to go with Gombs on this

Its not enough to criticize, you show the way!!! show how it ought to be done

dont just sit on the sidewalks and criticize!!

write the book, pastor the church, preach the gospel the way it ought to be preached... then come tell us to learn from you

Endorsed.

Unfortunately, it will likely never happen. How many monuments are built to honor bitter critics? How many important insitutions and systems have been constructed by destructive critics? These things are done by doers. And this species of critics are not doers.

BabaGnoni:
^^^
Not judging or picking on Myles Munroe, especially since, I've picked up one or two from him that gave me clarity in areas I sought understanding etc in. By and large Myles Munroe's teachings were kosher, and if there were any that weren't I usually chew them, spit their bones out and don't swallow.

The thing about Myles Munroe is the hustling aspect, the narcissism and the fraternizing with WoF because of lucre
It was getting or becoming alarming lately, with the depth of an increasingly hustling ‎by him across the African churches and third world nations, especially the African ones etc

Thank God it wasn't a painful death for him or any of the other guys, as the eye witness report say it was sudden, and that they didn't have to suffer‎ etc

Myles fraternizing with WOF? Do you guys even know who he was and what WOF is? Myles got born again and shortly thereafter came to the US to attend Oral Roberts University and spent time in Tulsa, the headquarters (pretty much) of WOF! In other words, Myles has been WOF probably from Day One. It's like accusing David Oyedepo (who didn't even start with WOF) of fraternizing with WOF. Does that make sense?

I'm glad you admit to being blessed by a WOF minister. That's what we've been telling you guys all along. As you keep on rubbishing WOF, you pose a stumbling block to others who would benefit as you did. That's simply unfair. And that's one of the reasons some of us will not let your crusade to succeed.

Like you, Myles blessed my life mightily. I got a powerful truth from his book, 'Maximizing Your Potential' about how fear is simply faith in the negative, in the power of the devil to bring to pass what he wants to accomplish. Same way faith helps brings God's objectives to pass. Once I laid hold of that truth, I was delivered from a demonic stronghold of fear that would have derailed or even destroyed my destiny.

May God grant comfort to His family. I'm almost in tears as I type but I'm comforted by the fact that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. So, as Paul advised, I'll not sorrow as those without hope.

WinsomeX:
^^^

My dear, we are getting to crux of the matter.

Myles Munroe, from the info I have on him, pastors a church. In the same bid he does leadership training and motivational teachings for secular organizations. The question that need be asked is this: does he distinguish his role as a Pastor from that of a secular teacher? His teachings are found in his books essentially. How many of those books preach Christ and the gospel of the kingdom? Do you know the gospel of the kingdom? If, as Gombs will have us believe, that these "extras" he does is his own "tent-making", where else has he taught the gospel?

See, young woman, when you find a man called to preach Jesus and the gospel of his kingdom, everything else he does is second fiddle. His passion is like Paul's "woe is me if I preach not the gospel".

The manner with which Myles Munroe died was tragic but the bigger tragedy is having a set of Christians today who think that what Myles Munroe and his friends preach is the gospel. You yourself cannot find any reference to Christianity on that schedule and you think such a person was consumed to preach Christ? The only thing you find there is a vague reference to spirituality. And spirituality can include New Age, Hinduism, Mysticism, Eckankar, Roman Catholicism, WoF, etc.

How will I counsel the nation President? I will do it in Jesus name. I will explore every opportunity I have to save some. That's Christian preaching and living.

Your answer to the question is a non-answer. So, you'll tell a muslim president that wants to go to war that he needs Jesus to save him and that's it? The war is averted? With this kind of approach, it's really no wonder some of you have zero influence. Why would God give you an opportunity to confer with such highly-placed people when you'll blow it in a second?

Like others have been counseling you on this issue of Myles, you simply do not know what you're saying. A person called to preach the gospel can do so, whle using the gifts and resources God has given him to further serve humanity. For Paul, it was tent-making. For Peter, it could be fishing (if God allowed him). For others, it could be music, dance, programming, event planning, etc. That you don't seem to get such a simple point is shocking.

Well, not exactly. Judging by your antecedents.

^^^^^

By concoting senseless excuses to avoid coming up with a valid answer to the question of whether Hagin ever claimed to be an apostle as you falsely alleged, in essence dancing around the issue, you were dancing palongo. It's quite disingenious on your part to extract one line from your post and assert that the response to the post was only about that line. And so does not qualify as dancing palongo. Try harder.

mbaemeka:
I only decided to make a post on that thread as I was led to and this was when I saw Nanny's post's. Initially they were not receptive of her as they felt she was there to disrupt their flow because she posed tough questions that they could not answer. I remember mentioning Nl and Brother Gombs to come and view the fiasco but you both disobliged . In retrospect, I am happy I posted when I did as until a few weeks back I didn't even know she worshiped where she worships.

Thanks for the detailed account of these fellows' shenanigans.

I didn't disoblige o! When you wrote, I was on a short cybertical during which I did not visit or show up at all on this forum for a few months.