₦airaland Forum

Candour: My bro, if I may ask. What did the blood accomplish?

The blood accomplished everything in our redemption package: salvation, healing, deliverance, prosperity, protection, etc. Eph. 1:7.

Gombs: You obviously wanna argue.



That's why you should go study. Let me give you a hint, Solomon was a black man...if you need scripture, I'd oblige you.



Pls try and do more study of the Bible by the help of the Holyspirit

So, I want to argue because I pointed out an erroneous statement you made? Did Elijah call down fire at any point to kill his enemies or not?

Gombs: Must you turn every thread into a tithe discussion thread? :-/


Even when Jesus clearly outlined what the/his Blood was for? Must you argue any and everything esp when you don't have to?

By now, you should know I'm not interested in any tithe discussion. Have you seen me participate in any of the myriads of tithe threads this year? Even ONE thread, No. I only made reference to tithe to point out your intellectual inconsistency. At least some of the people arguing against pleading the blood appear to do so because they do not seem to find support for it among the practice of apostles, which is also the same reason they reject the tithe. In your own case, you want to approbate and reprobate at the same thing: use the apostolic practice when it suits and reject it when it does not. So, if you can explain the discrepancy, I'm all ears.

Gombs:
1John 1v7 KJV:But if we walk in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Matt 26 v 28 KJV:For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins .




Very very unscriptural.
As you can see above, the blood was exclusively for remission of sin. It was the sacrifice accepted by God. It has no power to protect, cast out demons, etc as folks use it to pray today. The only powerful 'tools' given to us by God to fight the good fight of faith and live victoriously, are THE NAME OF JESUS AND THE WORD. the blood of Jesus prayer is mistook from
Rev 12 v 11KJV:And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

And the "when I see the blood, I will pass over u".....the story of the israelite in Egypt
Folk over time erroneously interpreted the above verses, (would explain further if u want). There is no single place in the Bible you find folks casting out demons with the blood of Jesus or protecting themselves or family with the blood of Jesus or where they adviced us to use the blood for anything, except that it cleanses us from ALL sin.

When Jesus resurrected, he didn't mention his blood, he Just said in luke 24v40 that a ghost does not have flesh and bone...he didnt mention blood, that is why we say the new creation man does not live of blood, for the Holy Spirit through John declared in John 1v12 and 13 that as many as received Jesus to them gave he power to be called the sons of God, [size=16pt] who were born not of blood [/size] , nor the will of man, nor the will of the flesh, but the will of God.The new creation does not live from blood, he is powered by the HolyGhost, that's why we say Chritians should/cannot not be sick....hallelujah

Your argument is weak. Let's assme that we do not see any apostle, etc using the blood for anything other than the remission of sins (that's not true). But neither do we see any apostle, etc preaching tithe, paying tithes themselves or giving first fruits. Yet, you preach and believe in these things. Can you explain the discrepancy? Or you promote what the apostles and NT believers in the Bible did not when it comes to money but reject it when it comes to other things?

Candour: @Gombs

I agree largely with your post and had no choice but to click like.

The blood of Christ is powerful but its basically for remmision of sins. Satan has been defeated. We only need to affirm it through the word and renew our minds to line up with the truth that the cross truly and completely emptied Satan of any power over Christians.

May God gives his children the grace to internalise this truth.

God bless you

That's not what the Bible says. Jesus told His disciples to drink His blood continually and Paul affirmed and elaborated on that. Neither was speaking in terms of using the blood in that context exclusively for the remission of sins. The Blood is of service to us today, as the communion illustrates.

Bidam: Pleading the Blood has nothing to do with begging or with mechanical repetition of empty words. Plead is legal terminology.

The Hebrew word translated plead is the root word reer. In its verb form, it means strive, contend, to conduct a legal case. In its noun form, it means dispute, controversy, case at law. A few examples:

"The LORD therefore be judge, and judge between me and thee, and see, and plead my cause, and deliver me out of
thing hand." 1 Samuel 24:15

"Hear now my reasoning, and hearken to the pleadings of my lips." Job 13:6

"I plead my cause, O LORD, with them that strive with me." Psalm 35:1

"Plead my cause, and deliver me..." Psalm 119:154

"The LORD standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the people." Isaiah 3:13

This is the prophetic of Jesus and His triumphant death and subsequent justification. He says, "Who will conduct a legal case or suit with Me? The answer, of course is that no case or adversary can stand against Him. Therefore, our case the Blood of His Cross, is sure.

PLEADING OUR CASE - REDEEMED BY THE BLOOD

A great courtroom procedure has ensued since the fall of man.

God, the Father is God, the Judge of all (Hebrews 12:23).


Jesus Christ, the Righteous, is our advocate (1 John 2:1,2) One that argues for a cause. One that pleads in
another's behalf, an intercessor.


The Bible is the Book of the Law.


Satan is the Prosecuting Attorney - the accuser.


"...for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they
overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the
death." Revelation 12:10,11

The title "the accuser of our brethren" reveals Satan's character and his ongoing activity.


Redemption is the crux of the matter. Adam exercised his free will and fell into the hand of the enemy. The
Blood of the Lamb redeemed (to recover ownership of by paying a specified sum) man from Satan's hold and
unto God and His plan: God redeemed us with "precious" Blood.

For more:http://www.lifeinjesus-ministries.com/THEBLOOD2.html

Amazing. Something similar has been on my heart for months now and I never knew anybody anywhere thought along the same lines. I hope I'll find time to expand on it.

made2fit: Really? So this too is unscriptural?

Pleading the Blood to receive the manifestation of what the Blood accomplished is completely scriptural.

Gombs: Jesus asked us to love and pray for our enemies..he prayed for his enemies and loved them

He never asked us to kill them by fire or such. Infact, he set a table for us in their presence, not their absence, meaning they aint a factor, they don't matter.

Prov 16v7
When a man's ways please the LORD, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.




Just please the Lord...change your prayer points, rather that sending holyghost fire, worship God, praise him, thank him, do his Word... And he'd take care of your enemies

2 Chronicle 1v11-12

11 And God said to Solomon, Because this was in thine
heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, or honour, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life; but hast asked wisdom and knowledge for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king:
12 Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee; and I will give thee riches, and wealth, and honour, such as
none of the kings have had that have been before thee,
neither shall there any after thee have the like.


Be like Solomon...d man didn't ask for the life of his enemies even though he knew he was an illegitimate Child, he knew David's other sons were against him..but he asked for WISDOM and KNOWLEDGE...go study how all his enemies ended

Praying down holyghost fire is unscriptural and though Elijah called down fire from heaven, it didn't consume his enemies (prophet of Baal).

Same as praying the "I cover myself/family/car/etc with the blood of Jesus" prayer is unscriptural.

Elijah called down fire from Heaven that consumed (the servants of) his enemy. You're using one account - the Baal incident - while ignoring the more relevant one in 2 Kings 1:9-16.

I'm not sure I understand why you think Solomon was an illegitimate son. Or are you confusing him with his brother that died?

I'm also working hard to find the functional difference between worshipping God and expecting your enemies to die and petitioning God for your enemies to die and expecting that to happen. Both worship and petition are forms of prayer. A functional difference would be NOT expecting your enemies to die or even praying for them not to die.

^^^

So you know Joel better than I do? How many times have you met him, being in his service or listened to him? Your delusion appears boundless.

Quite edifying.

PasD: By the grace of God, and by the virtue of the position I occupy and my kind of job, I have come to see a lot of things as regards the removal of 'unwanted pregnancy'.

I went into study and critical reasoning and believe me, I found out that there is such thing as 'unwanted pregnancy'.

The Imo State government and the Clergy men recently had a brush over abortion law allegedly passed by the State government. But then, in an interview with the Imo State governor Owelle Rochas Okorocha, he explained thus;

"We are not passing this law to encourage young girls to prostitute and abort their babies, rather, our focus is on married women and eventually unfortunate young ladies that get raped".

Everyone somehow has a reason to every action they take and the decision they make.
In developed countries, for instance, where the government approves of abortion, who will be punished? The doctor who can be sued for denying a young lady her right? Or the government who have a very strong reason for approving the act? Or the young 'unfortunate' lady who one day finds out she has an 'unwanted pregnancy'?

Let's judge this both from a strict and a wide sense...

Thanks for commenting

In developed countries, doctors are not required to conduct abortion. Doctors specialize and a woman would be foolish to go to doctors that do not specialize in pregant women's issues (OB/GYN) to have an abortion. Even with that, there are clinics that specialize in abortion. I do not imagine anybody suing successfully against a doctor for refusing to conduct an abortion. The closest I know are pharmacists being sued for refusing to dispense prescribed abortion medication on the basis of conscience.

Joagbaje: I guess you misunderstood me. I wasn't recommending gift as yardstick . His father was a miracle worker . But I didn't really see him flow in such grace yet he had more people. It's a sign it's God working grace through him.

Yes, his father was used mightily in the area of healings and miracles. One of his daughters, Lisa, was born with something like cerebral palsy. She was not supposed to talk, be normal or live independently. But he went deep into scriptures and found healing for her. Today, she is one of the ministers in the church, wrote a book recently, and has no sign of any sickness or disease. John Osteen was also a big time international evangelist and probably the most successful pastor among the first generation Word of Faith leaders - Hagin and Copeland, e.g., did not have a pastoral calling.

[quote author=fr_evangel]@topic
nLmediator is obviously pissed and I wonder why. You are not concerned with the scriptures but fighting and beating the air like most false teachers do.
You jumped into the thread and start posting with anger. There are things I cannot mention here for some reasons. You totally missed and mixed everything up. I will not try to engage you as you are not concerned about the scriptures but your feelings and "thoughts".

If you are concerned about scriptures, go through the thread from page 0 and read scriptures posted already, most of your posts have been attended to in previous posts.
READ THE SCRIPTURES GIVEN. Don't just argue.

@Joel's issue

I doubt you have listened to him preach on the fundamental doctrines of Christ.
You said he has led many to Christ and I'm wondering which Jo you speak of. He doesn't even believe in Salvation and repentance as taught in the scriptures.
I repeat, Joel is a false teacher who has repeatedly denied Salvation, Repentance, and many more. He preaches new age gospel and the doctrine of the Nicolaitans.
He preaches Universalism and that is in accordance to end time prophecies.[/quote]Sure, I was upset when you started lying about Joel and I do not like the idea of sowing seeds of disunity in the body of Christ. Before then, my participation here was as pleasant (!) as can be. You know next to nothing about Joel. Joel preaches Jesus as the only way to salvation. He makes 2 altar calls in every service. When you watch him on TV, that altar call he makes is only a beginning. After that, he urges people to give him about 5 minutes, in which he emphasizes the importance of giving your life to Jesus and escaping eternal damnation. Unless, you do not know the meaning of universalism, no universalist has the time for one altar call, let alone two in one service. And he preaches 3 services every weekend. After the sinner's prayer, he encourages the new believers to join a discipleship class that takes place in the church auditorium to learn more about the fundamentals of the faith.

^^^

Joel is not here bragging, is he? Actually, diversity of a church is a big thing in America. Reason is a history of racism and other factors. In the secular world, there's still a lot of segregation. So, it was expected that the church would be different. Yet, it was not. In fact, Martin Luther King Jr. described the 11 o'clock hour - service time - as the most segregated hour in America. That was about 50 years ago. Still today, when you tune in to your TV and see the churches, you can easily tell the color of the pastor by the color of the congregation. Even great ministers like TD Jakes and KC Price have a small percentage of non-blacks in their congregation while white pastors' churches are also filled with white people. Nigerian churches are filled with Nigerians. So, when one has a church that is that different, it may not matter to you, bu it means a lot to us here. Joel's dad was one of those who related with black people when it was unpopular or even dangerous. I guess it paid off. Indeed, I believe much of Joel's success today is attributable to the good spiritual seeds sowed by his father.

Joagbaje: I may not be his fan but hs father joy osteen Made deep impression in my life. It's really a miracle how joel is able to put such great ministry together . I and several people had thought the ministry was over expecting members to go else where but rather . It became one of America biggest churches . He doesn't have any special gift like miracles ,healing and prophetic gift yet people kept thronging there.

His father's book on the Holy Ghost in-filling was a big blessing to me when I was a student in Nigeria. His father was a towering figure in Houston and when he died the news people started saying the church was going to collapse soon. Instead, within a few years, Joel took the church from 5,000 to about 16,000. Amazingly, unlike most churches in America that are dominated by one racial group, his father had a church that was roughly 1/3 white, 1/3 black and 1/3 hispanic. When the church got to 16,000, it still maintained the father's balance! Now, the church is about 45,000 members and by far the largest church in America. I don't think there's even another church that has up to 30,000 members let alone 45,000.

Bidam: We should be careful about making gifts the yardstick for ministry,Thank God for gifts,but teaching the WORD is better.This is where Hagin outlasted the others.

I agree we should be careful and I don't think the brother was making gifts a yardstick. I should add though that Hagin had a lot of miracles. He had a 'healing school.' Same thing with Copeland - people don't now there are tons of healings and miracles in his ministry. There are also lots of miracles in Joel's ministry, starting from his father and continuing with him. His mother was healed of terminal cancer and is still alive today, 30 years later. She conducts monthly healing meetings in church. There are tons of prayer ministers at Lakewood praying for people's various needs. Joel and others pray for people during every service one on one. One day I needed some money for a major project and wondered if I should travel to get the money. When I went to Lakewood, I felt God speaking to people to join the prayer line during service. I did. We agreed. I traveled. The money came through the travel, with some change on top of it. And we're talking of tens of thousands of dollars. People get miracles thorugh Joel himself, although he approaches it differently. E.g., a woman was trying hard to conceive after many years of marriage. She came to Joel. Joel talked to her about changing her thinking. Not long, she conceived. Some other preacher [including Joel's dad] would have cast out demons of barreness, done family deliverance, etc to get at the results and that's fine by me. The point is that he got the same results with his style of teaching and prayer.

Joagbaje: I tried to point same to him. ROR is sold . Partners only pay for the copies they want to distribute free. Which means the partners bought them to be given out. The free ones are stamped so there's no way someone will go back to sell the ones marked for free distribution . The guy was just trying to get at me for no reason.

I noticed you tried to point it out and I thought he'd catch it. That's the problem with these "I know-better-than-everybody-else" critics. They have no idea how much they do not know.

ashieduplus: The funny thing is that i have learnt more scriptural truth from nairaland this year than from books I read for years... you all should even be asking what is being taught in these books and materials. So much heresy is being taught today. Indeed the Christian bookstore is one of the most dangerous places for a.Believer to visit.

Yeah, but have you asked where those you learnt from learnt their stuff? Perhaps by reading other people's books and using their materials (DVDs, etc). And some of those materials were not obtained free of charge. That's the point.

[quote author=fr_evangel]I used the sentence "You are talking to an evangelist" as a way to emphasize my passion for lost souls and young believers.
I have been that way for over a decade, I didn't put the fire there myself.


Tell me what I don't know, I'm seriously wanting to know

I have itching ears? Lol, a good joke.
If anything, I don't listen to preachers much. I do a lot of personal bible study, with prayer sessions.
If I'm guilty of anything, it would be over-filtering, not an itching ear at all. [/quote]You don't listen much to other preachers, but you're heare preaching to us? Why don't you advise us to do what you do: just read the scriptures and pray? Instead, you spend time teaching us. And if another person does it, it becomes a bad thing - so bad you avoid listening to them. You confirm the point about itching ears - because you avoid those not saying what you want to hear.

[quote author=fr_evangel]I have answered this already, check previous posts/pages.


I support giving to pastors and preachers too, but must be according to scriptures.



In case you don't know, they have started doing this already. From using "financial target" to get into meetings, to paying for tickets, to "conference registrations" etc. They are getting bolder by the day.

My passion remains to encourage those who know they have the call, especially evangelists, to not indulge in these acts.[/quote]Obviously, you plan to limit your evangelism to the bush. Because if you plan to reach multitudes in the city, that may require renting a big stadium or auditorium. And millions of naira to pay for it. Perhaps, you'll wait for the money to rain from heaven. Or you'd ask people to subsidize it through free will offerings and conference fees. BTW, nothing wrong with preaching in the bush. And with the kind of damage you're likely to cause with a big platform, as evident from your attacks here, such limit is not bad.

[quote author=fr_evangel]I used CE because that's the example I have PERFECT knowledge of.

I rest my case, you can read the scriptures for yourself.
It has been a good discussion for me as I have learned and relearn, increasing in knowledge and zeal.[/quote]No, you do not have perfect knowledge of CE. Otherwise, you'd not have written what you wrote about how the ROR is distributed. Simply put, it is also sold, which is contrary to your claim.

[quote author=fr_evangel]Joel is not a man of God, Christians should not listen to him. I'm surprised y'all don't know this already.
He is a new age preacher. The face of Universalism and the anti-church!
@Candour, I'm surprised you don't already know this.
If he sends a book with some dollars included, add a few dollars and mail back to him.
It is a very serious issue.

Lastly, I think we are getting used to some wrong doctrines that have lingered for so long that we can now condone them.
Selling even for lower than the cost, messages etc, is wrong.
I will have to see where Jesus or the Apostles did or encourage such to give a rethink.
I rather stick to scripture than use business logic to analyze the things of the Spirit.

What we should think of is how to earn money and pay for it or get others who will pay for the materials and it should be given out FREE OF CHARGE!
I will not an inch condone any form of exchange.

Not to mention the fact that it is absolutely wrong and against scripture to SELL in the place of fellowship.[/quote]Your post is full of rubbish. So, the materials should not be sold because we don't find that in Scripture? And let me tell you, Joel is a much better and productive christian than you. He has led multitudes to Christ, more than you can ever hope for. He probably has a deeper christian heritage than you, spanning decades of serving God with integrity by his parents and siblings. When the devil tried to attack me and make me uninterested in spiritual matters, it was Joel that God used to raise me up. You can continue with your trash and it won't change anything.

Tgirl4real: That wan na marketing gimmick jare.

You wont know wen u will give double of what the book is worth when he asks for it. He is pre-conditioning ur mind.

Haba, my sister! Yours is a case of 'Damned if you do, damned if you don't!' People complain that books are sold for a profit and when they are given out for free, they still complain and impute ulterior motive to them. Reminds me of those people in Northern Nigeria or East Africa that tell people that donors and government agencies bringing vaccines and food items have a hidden agenda, thereby discouraging the people from accessing needed benefits. I think you've given the Op that answer to his question: Yes, pastors and ministries should sell their books because if they don't, people will accuse them of marketing gimmicks and at the end of the day many people will refuse to accept or read the books.

Candour: God bless you dear brother for your frankness.

You are correct that people do not value free things. Our Salvation is free and most people do not value it but is that enough reason to put a price tag on it? Will that make the gospel message more readily acceptable to the world? The gospel came free to us. We have to stop commercializing it. Like you, i have books in my mini library that i do not pay any attention to. Some i bought and some are free. I never attended to them because they had no intrinsic value to me. Price DOES NOT and SHOULD NOT determine worthiness of gospel materials. The spirit behind it is what gives it value. Pls we have to stop using the business tactics from the world to help the gospel. It's the Holy Spirit that convicts and moves in the life of people to be receptive to the gospel, NOT the packaging of the material.

Capitalism is good for progress but it has it's very negative sides which no anointing can stop and that is GREED and COVETOUSNESS. The early church was socialist in nature but it's not like the apostles sat down to determine which social or economic system to follow. The socialist nature just arose out of a tremendous outpouring of love among the early believers to one another. Our ministries have become capitalism has no mercy for the less fortunate. Merchandise of one sort or the other fill the airwaves and you can see shameless profiteering all around. Even a lot of these books have little value because they are plagiarized copies of other writer's works yet they carry price tags that will make secular novelists green with envy.

Printing of books cost money we all can agree on that. However we have to ask ourselves this question. What motivates our Pastor-authors today? Financial gain or desire to spread the gospel? If it's profit, they are no better than Robert Ludlum or Sydney Sheldon and would do well to remove the appellation of pastor from their names. If it's the spread of the Gospel, then they need to think of how to reach those who cant afford to buy these materials. Making it free or making it very cheap will surely help. The rich MUST subsidize these things for the less fortunate among us and most of our prolific christian writers of today fall into the stupendously rich category. It's not too much to give some things free of charge.

If they are honest, The ministries of today have enough resources to truly share the gospel free of charge. This is not an attempt to be holier than thou, but It's what the master wishes for his followers.

You're welcome, brother.

I think we're mixing up a number of things: whether a book should be sold for a profit, subsidy for the "poor" and what can be done with the proceeds. I believe books should be sold at fair market value. There's nothing wrong in the Church copying good things from the secular society. We're here using a forum developed by non-christians. But our purpose is different from those who use the platform for selfish or ungodly ends. The apostles tried socialism or perhaps more accurately communialism, but how long did that last? If a church discovers an oil well on its land, it should sell the oil for the price other people sell. It can then use the money to finance the gospel. Of course, it can also subsidize some of the gasoline (if it also refines the crude) for some less privileged members. But the moment it decides that the oil or gasoline should be provided almost free of charge, is the day the devil would take advantage of it and you see people getting the cheap fuel without embracing the Savior. So, I say, sell the books at a profit. Make some of the books available for free or at a reduced price, so that many will be blessed by the message and improve their lot and then be able to join in sponsoring the gospel. However, the job of subsidizng the book should not rest on the writer (pastor) alone. Other members that have been blessed in other spheres can take it upon themselves to support in some form or fashin, e.g., buy copies in bulk and distribute to members in that church. BTW, I believe pastors share some of their books free of charge. I was pleasantly surprised to pick in the mail recently a copy of Joel Osteen's latest book, Break Out. He sent it to me without my requesting or paying for it.

While I have also wrestled with the issue a bit, there are 2 reasons I can think off the top of my head why books should be sold and for a profit. People often do not value things that they receive for free. I have a number of books in my study I received free of charge. I probably would have read some of them by now if I paid for them. This is not a problem exclusive to christians. Second, a minister needs to make money from the books as an incentive to put the effort required for a quality product. If the minister is virtually working for free (or only for a salary), he may not ALWAYS be as motivated to do the extra stuff required for a first class product. The genius of our capitalist system is this understanding that what gets incentivized is what gets done. Successful executives and entrepreneurs have deployed the concept to remarkable success. I know some people would adopt a holier-than-thou attitude and note that ministers are under an obligation to produce the books; otherwise they're not truly called. Well, I choose to live in the real world. Many of the people saying such are not doing all they are called to do as christians either (preaching, praying without ceasing, dominating their flesh, etc). It's folly to assume others would always do. That's why communism collapsed, even in China. Good intentions are not enough. And our God seems to subscribe to this incentive-based approach, seeing all the Biblical references to the reward of diligence.

Joagbaje: Christians were not yet born that time

Ha ha! I think our brother chose not to respond partly because he realizes that while the people Jesus ministered to were not christians before He died, after His resurrection many of them became christians. The Bible says that Jesus was with these people for weeks upon weeks teaching them about the Kingdom of God. Yet, during that period, there is no record of Him healing any of them. To demonstrate that Jesus believes that christians can be sick, the Bible should have included instances of christians falling sick - even if its common cold or fever - while Jesus was still on earth with the early christians. But we see no such record. Ergo, following our brother's logic, Jesus does not believe christians can be sick (just as our brother does not believe christians can be demonized because [he believes] there's no reference to christians being demonized in the Bible).

^^^

Of course, I know what I wrote and that was the same thing I repeated to you yesterday. But you chose to continue to spread your lies. If you don't know the difference between my words and your misrepresentations, keep on with your false assertions. And if you think Joel and I do not know about salvation, remind me again what difference your sentiments make? Joel's father, John Osteen was a respected pastor who ministered for about 50 years. He constantly held crusades in India and preached a lot in the U.S. He wrote books that blessed christians around the world - I first read his book when I was a student in Nigeria. John Osteen was a good friend of Kenneth Hagin and ministered with him, including at Hagin's famous camp meeting. If you believe that being in church all his life and listening to his parents preach, and now that he's 50, Joel still does not know what salvation is, but it's you that just crawled out of the jungle a few years ago that understands slavation, please suit yourself.

Joagbaje: I agree . I was only answering a question.

I get it. No hassles.

Pastor Kun: This still doesn't change the fact that you put the cart before the horse. 2 corinthians was written several years after 1corinthians so you one year twist doesn't hold any water. Learn to admit when you are wrong and your lies have been exposed.

Man, you're difficult! I think he was saying that 2 Cor. 9 is a follow up to 1 Cor. 16. But you seized on the minor misplacing of the verses to make him look like he's twisting and wouldn't admit a wrong. Yet, you've abandoned your claim that seed never referred to money in the scriptures and yet wouldn't admit you're wrong with your initial suggestion. Somebody who's wrong is persecuting the person who's right. Na wa!!

peteregwu: I COULD REMEMBER, YOU ARE THE ONE THAT ALSO SAID THAT PASTOR LAZARUS PREACHING IS THE SAME WITH JOEL OLSTEEN. IN FACT, THAT ALONE CONVINCED ME THAT SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOU.

.

Can you provide any proof of where I said the above? Of course, you cannot. Because you're doing the work of the devil as an accuser of the brethren.

ajayikayod: Bro, mayb u can show me one Christian in d scripture dt Jesus healed from demonic oppressions. U hardly kno how to make differences btw dispensations and ministries in d scriptures. Answers i gav are clearer to those without veil or religions goggles.

Can you show me ONE christian in scripture that Jesus in His earthly walk healed of sickness and disease. If you cannot find one, it means that Jesus does not believe christians can be sick.

ajayikayod: The bolded presented a shame the goes on among untutored believers. Luxury? Relevant? Actually wat kind of pastor produces members who dont know d scriptures? Well if dt's luxury to u, even kids in my church enjoy such luxuries and authorities.

Even d case u presented has holes (gaps) which i dont need to unravelled to u, mere asking d woman some intelligent questions will expose her ignorance.

Bro, do u think we ve not seen many coming around wit such believes, do u think i ve not counseled believers claiming all dt. But u kno, when such comes, we just smile becos we kno whr d problem lies (Lack of revelation of God's Word). An expounded exposition to God's Word has set all of them free from thr ignorance. u kno thr testimonies latter " I LACK KNOWLEGDE & REVELATION OF WHO I M IN CHRIST, I BELIEVED D WRONG TINS, NOW I LIVE IN AUTHORITY". Mayb d actual deliverance they need is from d wrong believ picked from our so called deliverance pastors.

Believers have long been kept under such ignorance (routine delievrance from demonic...) which goes in circles in other to keep them in church. The demons no dey tire? When actually will they start maturing, teaching others, healing d sick, ministrying to others, when!

Even in d scriptures whn demons ar cast out of unbelievers, get saved, they moved on to serving God, ministrying to others. But today d ministers themselves can be possessed. God save us oooooo. How shall we escape, if our man of God can also b possessed?

My final giv! Let us do exalt d word of God above any other extra biblical books. Judge them by d Word of God, not by experiences. Let our experiences be guided by d Word.

Funny you used the word 'untutored' when it's obvious you need basic understanding of words and sentences before you start 'tutoring.' I did not say that scriptures were a luxury but that scriptures that are not relevant to her situation are a luxury when she is in pain and seeking a way out. You've danced around, but what you have not done is answer a simple question: which of those categories does the woman fall into?

Or better still: The people you counseled in your church, were they lying about their experiences or imagining things? You can't set them free of their ignorance, if they were not ignorant in the first place. And a person that tells you stories of demonic attacks is not led by ignorance to tell such stories. Either she concoted them or they're true. How you stop them from having such experiences is a different matter. Simply answer the question and we can move on to how you set them free through knowledge.

For now, only you are enjoying your palongo dance.

And that you think pastors are keeping people in endless deliverance sessions to make money is one of the silliest things I have heard here. The pastor would make more money from believers who are well and walking in authority. Not those having nightmares and disturbances that are costing them hours of work or business and lots of money on psychologists and the like.