₦airaland Forum

NiyiOmoIyunade:
Okay. In the cold light of facts you are not as confused as you first averred.

We can find a way to do this test you desire and see how many seconds or minutes the battery will hold up for - I will look out for an opportunity to lay hands on a good lead acid battery - interestingly I have not even seen a lead acid battery in person for at least 1 year now except in pictures and videos.

Myself and customers are all LFP users but I started from lead acid and believe there are valid use cases for it - worst case lead acid is a very good place for a solar/RE newbie to start from and learn the ropes before graduating to the better battery chemistries you guys defend so vigorously.

Again my point to Saint2Ace is that no residential user loads their battery to deplete it within 1 hour so the example given could mislead a non technical person and therefore be wary of using such examples.

Just funny to read the bolded most of us started from LA but I wish someone gave me lithium info, and if affordable I will have gone straight to Lithium.

On the 1hr stuff, here is the context of where all these started, I just responded to a cooking question o and it's residential. If madam cooking lasts an hour so be it:

https://www.nairaland.com/390522/solar-energy-complement-fta/1236#115829826

samnaija:
Stop trying to play victim it's very childish. No one insulted you. You made a statement and I simply stated it is not good for battery life longevity.
You sound like a broken record, I am here for knowledge like serious seeking not to bullied and shoved with fallacy that you don't practice regularly.

To prove your points you regularly make sceneros that are not done everyday, when you asked me whether I make 100amps I told you the truth while at day you live like a king and night you live like a pauper.standard solar rules. I make averagely 120 amps instaneously.

. You attributed that to the sun God, I complain. No .
but I asked a simple question what are powering at night if it is true that warrants 100amps till morning (na pure water factory).
You begin repeat soundtrack haba!!!!

Bros but why ask the question when I already shared information on what was consuming the power. You wrongly claim that I regularly make scenarios up, you really think I intentionally powered those stuff up for fun. While we have a back channel with Niyi and Co where to do testing...please note that instance was a normal operation day for me. Niyi does much more by the way so it's nothing special

NiyiOmoIyunade:
If you are confused it is totally on you.

For the record, below quote is how I started with key items bolded - I am still wondering what the ruckus from team Lithium is all about.

If you want to do a lead acid test then bring batteries with known behaviour to the table hence I said bring one each premium quality, one each average quality amd any generic lead acid - you will see clearly that the performance and behaviour under load is not thesame across the grades.

You use REPT and EVE cells for your LFP packs yes? Are they in any way better than GreatPower and all the various perceived lower grade cells? All LFP cells are not thesame, do not behave thesame and do not test or last thesame hence the market slaps grades on them and people chase the perceived best of the ranking scale as their budgets permit.

Bros we only have a point of disagreement which is your 120a on 100ah lead acid claim. It's very unnecessary and useless to even try to run a 120a on a 100AH leadacid.

Saying that it will run less than an hour makes it look like it will serve for some minutes which is misleading, and that's what you don't agree to...that information is very misleading....however doing that with lithium will serve reasonable time.

As to the test, you are the one that want to prove that LA will do some magic hence I will leave you to chose and provide your best LA while I provide the load inverter

NiyiOmoIyunade:
Egbon, we have access to each other back channel.

You can put some cash behind these statements, supply 3 batteries - a premium grade lead acid, an average grade like Amaron Quanta and then any of the chinese el cheapos.

I will provide an inverter with suitably adjustable LVD and load testing equipment. With two or more of us suitably invested we can perform a test, record the evidence and share with the house.

Your point 2 - did you miss the part where I said an 100Ah battery derates to about 41Ah at 100a load at a Peukert coeff of 1.3? The Peukert effect you have thrown jabs at me on is a fact of life o and holds true whether you believe it or not.

For your point 3 - can you state the lead acid batteries you have actually tested in practice? I have tested Trojan, US Battery, Rolls, Quanta, Deka, Genus, Luminous, Sinergy and a few others incl el cheapos with varied results.

Really Bros you've confused me honestly... You started by claiming you can do 120a off a good 100AH LA, I told you it's not practically possible without the inverter lvd hitting within a short period. Then you responded with all sorts of tests you've done without any proof you've actually put 120A on a 100AH. I have used lead acid and still do and I know how voltage Sags even with just 50A load on quanta battery.

Now you are going towards a different spin; testing of 3 lead acid batteries, spinning towards elchinco Vs premium LA which is not even what was discussed before.

Bros just pick the one you consider to be best 100AH LA, put a 120A load on it and share result. I am willing to procure/provide the inverter for the test, you buy any lead acid battery of your choice.

NiyiOmoIyunade:
There are no if conditions boss, battery capacity is tested after the battery has reached full charge and then allowed to rest for the required time - these are tests I have done and seen good quality lead acid batteries derate as expected.

It is possible a side of this divide is determined to win this argument at all costs.

I saw the video - dude took a generic brand el cheapo looking lead acid battery, failed to charge it properly through absorb and float and then ran a load test and this is what you folks are using to corroborate your position on lead acid behaviour.

All batteries are not created equal and the tested battery was not even allowed to charge up to 90% capacity.

I think someone in the comments gave our tester some pointers on what was wrong with the test.

Did you just forgot that you wrote the text below:

esp if you reduce the rate of discharge to normal limits

There is a saying in my dialect "A Saturday that will be good, it's Friday that we will know" that is the case of the battery used in that video Vs the best lead acid battery. Bros let's stop talking theory:

1. There is no way you will discharge 120a from the best of 100AH lead acid and not reach the minimum possible lvd of all the inverter within a short period

2. There is no way you will be discharging at that rate and get a capacity close to 100Ah out of the lead acid

3. I like that you claim you've done this test before please share video proof and result. I am not scared of being wrong, I will be happy to apologize and learn from it but for now it makes no sense in practice.

samnaija:
The question that is rattling everyone is why?.
Why would you derate your batteries such. What exactly do you want to achieve.
I did not get it then, that is why asked whether he has a pure water factory to supply light to at night.

The truth is no sane would do it regularly, whether lithium or lead. I keep saying it and I am glad people are speaking. Batteries are just storage units with a shelf life, in renewable energy the goal is to maximize the use of the shelf life (cycle) as long has possible.

Then this behavior we are seeing lately on the thread about lithium and lead is sickening.

How many times has it been said on this forum lithium is superior to lead in chemistry !!!.

To prove points you paint sceneros that you can't practice regularly, and you know a lot people make their decisions entering renewable energy from this forum.

We are all learning, we should all put brakes on all this absurd sceneros and remind newbies on best practices for longevity.

Instead of you making degenerative statement you should have simply asked....you think I love to derate my cells for fun ba..... When I was pulling above 5kw clearly stated the equipments consuming the load and with the screenshot of 11% I clearly stated why my cells got down to that level. I could safely do all that without much fear of battery damage because am using lithium.... that was the point instead you started throwing abusive jokes at me.

mctfopt:
Yeah, I'll love a small battery powered ride like the Chinese Wuling for city runs with range under 200km

This is something we could group buy on if it can fit naija human sizes(not the portable Chinese human ) ...the main challenge though still be maintenance since there won't be a service center nearby.

AndroBlaze:
Sir Niyi, I think its safe to say almost no 100AH LA battery can pass a 100 -120AH draw test for anything close to 20 minutes in real world use, mainly because that is not what they were designed for...while the Lithium chemistry is designed for exactly this kind of exigency.

Anyway,there are 100s of videos on youtube of people testing and even going over C1 ratings on Lithium but this was the closest thing I could find to anyone trying this on LA.....and I doubt any LA user would be surprised at the results of the tests.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uUCFSf3fyA&feature=youtu.be

Thanks for sharing that YouTube link, he added just 76a load and voltage dropped instantly to 11v, at this point most inverter lvd will have been hit. Going further, within few seconds it was at 10v+. Now imagine if it was a 120a load everything will caput within few seconds. I have used lead acid and now lithium to appreciate the limit of both chemistries.

Up till today I use both of them depending on scenario, and for me I only wish I knew and started using Lithium much earlier. This time around people on this thread have enormous information to start early and not waste funds.

Finally a LA user will appreciate lithium performance when he/she finally experience it....I guess that is what makes Lithium users to be excited, it's never a spit at LA.

NiyiOmoIyunade:
Actually the backup time is in the range of 20 to 25 minutes when you load a healthy fully charged 100Ah battery with an 100a load.

Rough math - with a Peukert coefficient assumption of 1.3 - a 100Ah battery at C20 has capacity reduced to 40-41Ah at C1

You should research our dear Wilhelm *Peukert* and how battery capacity derates at high C rates - pertinent to note that the balance of Ah capacity in my rough math above was not lost, if you give the battery time to recover and the internal chemical processes to balance out, you can draw more energy from the system esp if you reduce the rate of discharge to normal limits

Again the point I made to @Saint2Ace that sparked all this frenzy is that no one uses their battery in a residential setting so as to discharge it within 1 hour and we should therefore be wary of using such an extreme scenario as an example so that non technical people are not misled.

There is no argument that Lithium chemistries are generally superior to lead acid, yet there should be no argument that there are valid and sensible use cases for lead acid as well.

You are talking peukert and mathematics am talking practice and then you've now added a if conditions. Once again, put a super healthy 100AH Lead acid and load the 120a as you earlier said tell me how many minutes it took before the inverter lvd was reached because that is the main discussion. The caveat which you are now introducing with regards to all those mathematics and if conditions were not in your initial post.

By the way interesting how this thread goes, we discuss battery use cases for a while then we go on a short break to take commercials

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adrusa:
Bolded is not true bro. With 100A out of 100AH AGM, your voltage will sag so crazily that your inverter will shut down. One reason why people can take large amp out of even a small lithium battery is that lithium maintains a good voltage until almost the bitter very end. Lead acid on the other hand will lose voltage quickly as you load it.

100A out of 100AH AGM will probably last you about 5 minutes before you voltage becomes too low to sustain your inverter!

Go and Verify!

How will it achieve that, that 5 mins is a dream. The other aspect is that you will not get anything close to 100AH out of the fully charged 100AH LA..... It's like people think some of us only use lithium without any LA experience.

NiyiOmoIyunade:
Savvy folks like you should be wary of putting out info in this manner so as not to mislead non technical people.

One could run a 120a load on a 100Ah Lithium bank or a 100Ah AGM bank no trouble - in both cases the backup time will be super short (less than 1 hour) as peukert is real for all battery chemistries.

What am I trying to say? It is impractical to use a battery this way in a residential setting as people want a battery to carry them over several hours - practically, most people will not use their battery above an average C10 discharge regardless of the type.

With the Lithium packs, we all know that there is the integrity of the connections to consider as things may get hot very fast at high C rates - yes Lithium is the superior chemistry and will last longer than similar lead acid under harsh use conditions but no one I know uses his Lithium battery pack 1C or more in a residential setting.

The bolded is very misleading and I mean very... Tell me in practice how you will run 120A on a 100AH lead acid without the lvd getting hit in seconds (no matter how low you set it) but this can be achieved with lithium rated above 1C. Savvy folks like you should not make this too complicated than it should. Lithium takes more c rates while maintaining stable voltage than LA, that is the main point of the discussion and it's as simple as that.

samnaija:
Niyi you don't need to explain , there think people are gullible to everything. That was why I asked na pure water factory.

This comment shows that the intentions are different but ofcourse since Niyi has further corroborated and dignified the misunderstanding it's fine. Make I dey run my pure water factory as you even claim some of us are gullible...na wa o... people dey talk anyhow here sha.

Clean ride still available

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toluxa1:
Is this not induction?

Yes it's not, it has element in it, check the second picture

samnaija:
You seem to like this LA and lithium talk.
The message is for new entrants into renewable energy.
You just stated your size of bank again, that is why you can confidentiality use all your appliances. Someone said you can get away using heavy load regular,with a smaller lithium bank, how? and why?.

Battery chemistry either lithium or lead has a shelf life or number of cycles before they pack up. If you have a large load on a small bank no time soon you go change naira to dollar.

And by the way I take more than 100 amps from my lead on good sunny day, my battery will sit comfortablly at 55v. While All the chores in the house being done.
My bank is a mere 48v 600ah,but my panel arrays do their job diligently

Bro that's not from your battery it's from the sun god....do it at night Bro and share screenshot, it's good we have similar AH capacity.

The obvious message that needs to be passed across to new entrants is that it's easier and safer to pull(or put) more current to lithium than LA without it having any negative impact on the cell. You can actually do 100A from a good 100AH lithium so long as the connection components are well spec'd for it.

samnaija:
Here we go again. To All , this man has a big battery bank whether lithium or lead it's easy to take that much from your bank so far it is a big bank. The word is big bank .

Now to first timers entering renewable energy and you don't have his kind of large bank , you buy a small scale bank and try it , your cycle of battery will be halfed in no short time.

You can't take that much from a LA of 510AH 48v and still be above 52v, so not as easy for LA.

oldienavie:
Bros can you please share a picture/information about the type of hotplate that you use with this please ?

That's what it looks like

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earthrealm:
The power of lithium..ur bank is 48v 510ah abi?.

Yes Sir!

ojesymsym:
With the present rate of gas, only this one is more than enough benefit. What about night cooking, how do you manage it? You take that off the batteries?
I also assume you use an induction cooker? I have not been able to use the one I bought last year. Looks like it is not compatible with my pots. Maybe it is time to give it another looking and required pot investment.
One problem is being that the pot is the required one.

Madam was doing her thing in the kitchen at the time of taking this screenshot plus 2 ACs on. I use electric cooker, those type that have glass covering. They are probably faster than some has cookers and are pot independent

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Anyone with neatly used 12v or 24v hybrid inverter should quote me. Has to support minimum 1kw PV array