₦airaland Forum

manny4life: THRUST DOES NOT GENERATE LIFT, THE AIRFLOW OVER THE WINGS IS WHAT GENERATES LIFT, LOOSE THAT AIRFLOW, AND YOU STALL.

I never claimed to study Aeronautical Engineering, if you want answers, look for Engineers to argue this with, I can give you a few names on FB, whom I went to school with. My comment on pitch/yaw was simple: I said they are different components which is not relevant to what we're talking about. Yes an airplane departs, before departure, elevator trim is set for "takeoff", how can you talk about pitch and not talk about the elevator that controls it? However since you can prove your Google internet knowledge that an aircraft can pitch up without an elevator, please go ahead and prove this. I guess an airplane can pitch up and down in flight without elevator control, so does the rudder (el al Isreali flight accident comes to mind)..

As for your hint two, all I can say is hmm? What aircraft does a 90degree bank turn? I seriously have no clue on what you're talking about. The report never stated that, at least when I read it, so what are you on about?

I am a university trained engineer in Aeronautical engineering (at undergraduate and Post graduate level) with hands on experience in designing aircraft for a major OEM so I know my onions when it comes to this subject.

You know, knowledge is relative. You know a little and learn a little.

To answer your question briefly, An advancing wing due to asymmetry of thrust, will lead to one Wing tip 'seeing' the airflow first before the other which could lead to a coupled pitching and rolling moment. This understanding is what we engineers have used to deduce the correct way you need to 'bank' the aircraft during a coordinated turn for example. It is this understanding ( couple with early wing tip stalling) that also guide us not to put the Flaps at the outer most part of the wing.

Elevators or Horizontal stabilizers really are there to change moment arm and cg position during low and high speed. Again they are AUGMENTING DEVICES! Have you ever asked yourself how aircraft without Elevators do pitch up and down? Or have you not seen one actually

B737NG: My Good Sir, pray tell me if your above comment is in reference to the A 350 xwb

You Sir, just take it that one of the finest birds to take to the sky in recent memory has the finger print of one of Nigeria's brains on it . No need to divulge okay.

B737NG: @Omo_tier 1 Why the hostility and condescending attitude towards pilots? You don't have to engage in name calling to have a constructive argument....take a chill pill

Sorry if I come across as being hostile towards pilots, you know, they are our good friends and if they are not there to fly the machines we design, then We wont have much to do than to keep design on boards and no manufacturing

I was with a nex-French Airforce pilot who is now an engineer, who is now part of our test flight department that educate pilots on the engineering of flight. His comment on how ignorant most of His colleagues are when it comes to this subject got me laughing really hard.

Pilots are like robots which we configure to follow certain algorithm/routine that we write when certain situation/conditions are met They always spew rubbish when they try to dive into aerodynamics of flight of which they only know about the basics to get them to fly the machine we design

Sorry if you are a pilot, but the vast majority who did not undergo study in Aerospace or Aeronautical Engineering always come across like ediots when they talk about physics of flight/aerodynamics

manny4life: I'd love to hear his argument, some people who haven't been to flight school will come online and rant nonsense..

If only you knew anything about Mechanics of Flight, you would have shut it in by now and admit that your understanding of flight principles is FLAWED.

I posted a link the Dr. J.D Anderson's book on Fundamental Aerodynamics, one of my favourite books in my University days. Better, go read Flightwise: Principles of Aircraft Flight v. 1 by Chris Carpenter. His would give you a very good understanding of Flight Principles from a Pilot's perspective.

Any clever person can clearly see from the equation of Lift that the 'SQUARED VELOCITY' term will come from the ENGINES accelerating the Aircraft to speed up the MASS over the Air particle to create Lift.

Your explanation of STALL is not unexpected from un-type rated pilots like yourself. I would not go into that because you seems to lack the basics of mechanics of flight.

manny4life: You see, it's people like you that eventually mislead people, people who haven't seen the four walls of a flight school let alone attend "ground school" not to talk of an being in an airplane cockpit. Quasi internet knowledge is what you parade online. Your "technical jargon" downloaded from Google makes no sense, I decided NOT TO answer you, but I said to myself, why not?

Again, I would reiterate this again, unlike the mumbled equation on there, and like the experts taught me from a reputable university and flight line, thrust is just a component required to generate LIFT, it propels the aircraft forward in a high speed, that there's enough airflow on the wings, enough to lift the aircraft. THRUST DOES NOT GENERATE LIFT, the air flow over the wings and the wings is what generate lifts or lift aircraft. If thrust generates lift, why is it when pilots move their throttle to idle during cruise or descent, the airplane will come crashing down na. Why is it that when there's high angle of attack (loss of airflow over the wings), you loss lift and stall? I mean, if thrust generated lift, by your theory that thrust generates lift, you won't stall. After all, many aircraft have stalled on cruise, descent when the engine is spinning very well... Please stop misleading people.

THRUST DOES NOT GENERATE LIFT, THE AIRFLOW OVER THE WINGS IS WHAT GENERATES LIFT, LOOSE THAT AIRFLOW, AND YOU STALL.

I never claimed to study Aeronautical Engineering, if you want answers, look for Engineers to argue this with, I can give you a few names on FB, whom I went to school with. My comment on pitch/yaw was simple: I said they are different components which is not relevant to what we're talking about. Yes an airplane departs, before departure, elevator trim is set for "takeoff", how can you talk about pitch and not talk about the elevator that controls it? However since you can prove your Google internet knowledge that an aircraft can pitch up without an elevator, please go ahead and prove this. I guess an airplane can pitch up and down in flight without elevator control, so does the rudder (el al Isreali flight accident comes to mind)..

Your hint one and two absolutely makes no sense at all, you're asking me why did the DFDR not record the speed, have you looked at the report? The report stated that the airspeed indicators weren't working I believe, it gave away false information which is why they relied on radar data. Besides, do I look like your engineer or you have turned from pilot to engineer to investigator right? Code what exactly? You code into the DFDR? I'm beginning to doubt your piloting knowledge, it begs of answers... seriously.

As for your hint two, all I can say is hmm? What aircraft does a 90degree bank turn? I seriously have no clue on what you're talking about. The report never stated that, at least when I read it, so what are you on about?

Where in the report did AIB claim the speed indicator was not working?

Yes, DFRD are coded using STATE PRIMARY VARIABLES and I know you block head pilots only know how to read from papers other have written and can barely used your heads to think how things are engineered. FYI, I am not a Pilot and I design the real machine that you lazy people speed months learning how to fly.

In my previous post, I gave you a simple Inverse approach of how flight was conceived : When you accelerate a MASS of a body though air, with enough surface area, that MASS would generate lift equal to the WEIGHT of the Mass.

Physically, Air particles move at a given velocity, which accelerates over the flying surfaces ( Wing, Fuselage, etc) to generate pressures. Unfortunately, the velocity at which the air particles accelerate on a given day is not enough to generate the pressure to create lift.

So clever engineers stock some engines to the flying mass, accelerated the MASS through the air, thereby creating the necessary air particle accelerations, hence pressure force to lift the MASS from the ground.

Have you ever thought why there are different THRUST settings for Aircraft for different Weather operations for take off run and lift off

manny4life: @Omo_tier1,

You talked about "Velocity", I'm no engineer by profession, but at least I still remember my good ole University Physics days, velocity is the "SPEED" at which an object moves. The speed referred to on here is the "AIRSPEED", and like I said, the thrust generates power which pushes the airplane in the forward direction, on your panel, the "AIRSPEED INDICATOR" tells you what's the allowable speed for which you can rotate. This is why an airplane can glide down with or without an engine even if with idled engines. Thrust DOES NOT generate lift.

A short note for you

Thrust generates the power that pushes the aircraft forward, the rate at which the aircraft moves through the air, this is measured in airspeed

Lift relies on enough air on the wings to lift the aircraft whether it's takeoff or cruise. Eg, if your rate of climb is too high, it spoils the air on the wings...

Weight on the other hand opposes the lift

Drag opposes thrust (flaps and slats), thrust reverser, speed brakes or spoilers, landing gears etc.

If you are no engineer and you have not design, build and test flight a commercial plane before then maybe you need to shut it in and learn from those who have and still do.

Is it awkward that you are talking about SPEED when making reference to Pressure Density? In the Lift equation, where did you find Speed?

Let me advice you, stick to what you know best.

I find it amazing you are still defending that ignorant statement.."THRUST DOES NOT GENERATE LIFT".

Let me educate you more. The real physics of Lift is differential pressure occasioned by change airfoil particles velocity. In reality, when object is stationary and air particles "flow" over it, depending on the "MASS" of the object, and the "Reference" surface area, Lift is generated.

Now, clever people like myself thought.. hmmm, if that is the case, if we stick something of a wing, accelerate the "WING MASS" through a stationary air, then the same action must take place. That is exactly what you get with aircraft.

If THRUST does not generate lift, why then does aircraft fall out of the sky when they lose THRUST from engines? Coincidentally, this is what the AIB alluded to might have happened to the Associated Airline flight, yet you are ignorantly misleading people.

FYI, I am not a wannabe ground school aircraft enthusiast, who read stuff from the Internet. But I will advise you to stick to what you know.

ikeyman00: omo


ok ooo


like i said before engineer with all the paper yet can produce nothing

so bigman u feel now

Hehe, one of my product just flew in June 2013 . Anyway, nice talking to you, hope you take my advice, download that freebook and educate yourself.

Have a lovely day,

Cheerio ciao

ikeyman00: omo


u make me laugh ooo; ey well it shall be well; do u know oil change is one of those controversial one.

u are so sure


all im trying to tell u wat u got on quote is one of them ooo bigman

Sir,
I posted a link by the highly respected expert in aerodynamics and flight mechanics. Do yourself a favour, download it, read it, and educate yourself a little so as not to pass on ignorant disease to the next generation

I am happy to share knowledge in this field and also help each other learn from my years of experience as Aircraft architect and designer for major OEM.

You know sometimes you need the ignorant folks to help you appreciate how helpful it is to be well learned and educated, as it also help you stretch the comfort of your boundary of knowledge

Hope you educate yourself on the through reason why Aircraft fly which is due to CIRCULATION which is as a result of VORTICITY according to Theordore Von Karman . Mechanist of Lift generation (by airflow above and beneath the wing) explanation is okay but not good enough the world has moved beyond peeling potatoes with fingers you know

Time for Saturday shopping...Hopefully this will be the only thread I will comment on whilst I return to my "read mode" status

"The First Officer indicated that the aircraft was not climbing and advised the
Captain who was flying not to stall the aircraft. Higher climb angles can cause an
aerodynamic stall. If the aircraft is not producing enough overall thrust, it is
difficult or impossible to climb without the risk of an aerodynamic stall.
Immediately after lift-off, the aircraft slowly veered off the runway heading to the
right and was not climbing properly. This aircraft behavior appears to have
resulted in the Air Traffic Controller asking Flight 361 if operation was normal.
Flight 361 never responded.
Less than 10 seconds after rotation of the aircraft to climb away from the runway,
the stall warning sounded in the cockpit and continued to the end of the
recording. The flight data shows characteristics consistent with an aerodynamic
stall..."

Ladies and gentlement

From the above, if AIB preliminary report is to be believed, then on the side of caution, one would say that the crash was as a result of the following:

1. Pilots not airworthy to fly the aircraft.

2. Aircraft not airworthy to fly

Whilst awaiting the final report, the Minister of Aviation should as a matter of urgency begin :

1. An investigation of Associated Airlines as Pilots appears not to have followed standard procedures for normal aircraft operations and if found culpable, a criminal investigation should be launched immediately

2. An internal and thorough audit of the Ministry of Aviation to understand why AOC was granted to that ill fated aircraft, and to ascertain if all laid down procedures were adhered to and if not, why not?

3. An external audit of the Ministry of Aviation should begin immediately and the Minister of Aviation asked to stepped aside (NOT SACK, as this will not solve any problem) to avoid any undue interference with the external auditing.


Aviation is not rocket science and you can not cut corners with aviation.

For those arguing about Pilots negligence and those blaming the minister of aviation, from the forgoing in the AIB preliminary report, it is clear all have some blame to share but blaming does not solve problems, rather pragmatic solutions by all parties involved in aviation safety is what is required.

ikeyman00: omo


look big man; im not here to argue if gobal warning exist or not; or if chocolate makes u fat or stop heart attack; or changing oil at 5000miles is a waste or not;

i sure u will agree with me there are lots of expert that will put on a good fight over those logic

i can only agree u are almost on the same lane, so producing those web site wouldnt change anything oooo; u hear

look the fundamentals are these

thrust comes from the engine

lift comes from the wing

u cannot expect hawk to generate lift with pigeon wings ehh

so the ideal of having to produce flap in order to generate lift has to be respected

now going into advance stage of aero-dynamics shouldnt be necessary now

therefore report or no report isnt wat im talking about if u notice

thanks once again

You Sir need to go back and read Dr. J.D Anderson

Freedown load

http://aerodenad.files./2012/05/fundamentals-of-aerodynamics-by-anderson.pdf

http://www.scribd.com/doc/51421280/Anderson-J-D-Fundamentals-of-Aerodynamics-3ed-McGraw-Hill-2001-T-K-300dpi-912s-PCfm-

"The physical examination of the wreckage revealed that the right engine propeller
was in the feather position and the engine fire handle was pulled/activated...."

Does this statement 'suggest' the RIGHT engine was not generating THRUST, indicating there was not enough THRUST to climb for the given TOW the aircraft was in ? What does Associated Airline operating manual say for EMB122 configuration for airports like MMIA under the weather conditions and aircraft weight on that day? Does Associated Airline have such OM in place for all pilots and in all Aircraft

"The crew did not make a ‘V1’ call or a Vr’ call. V1 is the speed at
which a decision to abort or continue a take-off is made. Vr is the speed at which
it is planned to rotate the aircraft. Normally the non-flying pilot calls both the V1
and the Vr speeds. When Vr is called the flying pilot pulls back on the control
column and the aircraft is rotated (pitched up) to climb away from the runway.
During the rotation, the First Officer stated ‘gently’, which we believe reflects
concern that the aircraft is not performing normally and therefore needs to be
rotated very gently so as not to aerodynamically stall the aircraft..."

Clearly, an indication that the Aircraft did not have enough THRUST to climb Perhaps due to the Idle RIGHT engine not producing the combined THRUST required?

VULCAN: @Omo_Tier

Please confirm links before sending it out. That's just Pg 1. Nothing there.

Link confirmed, you would notice I modified the link after the initial posting. You should have a four page AIB preliminary report when you click on the link

Now lets dissect the AIB preliminary report:

"The wind was calm and weather is not considered a factor
in this accident. Approximately 4 seconds after engine power was advanced to
commence the take-off roll, the crew received an automated warning from the
onboard computer voice which consisted of three chimes followed by “Take-off
Flaps…Take-off Flaps”..."

"The warning did not appear to come as any surprise to the crew and they continued normally with the
take-off. This warning continues throughout the take-off roll..."

Is AIB saying the pilots actually knew what they were doing?

"This warning continues throughout the take-off roll. As we are in the
process of verifying the accuracy of the flight data, we have not yet been able to
confirm the actual flap setting however we expect to determine this in the
fullness of time..."

"The ‘set power‘ call was made by the Captain and the ‘power is set’ call was
confirmed by the First Officer as expected in normal operations. Approximately 3
seconds after the ‘power is set’ call, the First Officer noted that the aircraft was
moving slowly. Approximately 7 seconds after the ‘power is set’ call, the internal
Aircraft Voice warning system could be heard stating ‘Take off Flaps, Auto
Feather’. Auto feather refers to the pitch of the propeller blades. In the feather
position, the propeller does not produce any thrust.."

"At this time, we can state that the Right engine appears to be producing considerably less thrust than the Left engine. The left engine appeared to be working normally. The aircraft automated voice continued to repeat ‘Take-off Flaps, Auto Feather’..."

Does this suggest that during the climb phase, (before V2) there was not enough THRUST to climb? Asymmetrical THRUST during climb = ?

ikeyman00: @@@omo



bigman keep talking to ur self ooo

yes u can never change the fundamentals as u wish

teacher hope u?

You Sir need to understand that FLAPs/SLATs are LIFT AUGMENTATION DEVICES hence the reason they are called HIGH LIFT DEVICES and that Lift is generated over a flat plate when air speed is accelerated. Classical thin plate mechanist lift generation explanation ..

Compressibility of air, hence its affects on pressure density has nothing to do with lift on a referenced surface area, but flaps/slats does augment it

ikeyman00: @@@

older plane like the ones u see in ww2 might have fixed wing but im pretty sure the angle of the propeller could be change

so this useless opposition wetin again

Sir, have you read the AIB preliminary report at all? Here's the link

http://www.aib.gov.ng/reports/EMB120%20ACCIDENT%20update.docx-1.pdf

This will form my discussion here....

VULCAN: Very interesting discussion between manny and ndu chuks. I was hoping to hear from more pilots(especially commercial) and aeronautical engineers so that we could get a even more rounded perspective on what happened. Thanks to Anyanwu for shedding more light on this.

But it seems that manny and ndu chuks are attempting to blame pilot error or lack of airworthiness respectively as the cause of the crash. Who said that it had to be mutually exclusive? It appears to me that it was a mixture of both. Eyewitness account by Feyi and his in-law said the plane was in a very poor state and the discussion in the cockpit(which AIB alluded to but refused to elaborate on) gives credence to this.

And where are the Nigerian nairaland pilots and engineers? Seems there are so few. Sad. Just like the Dana crash thread. It was a foreigner who came on the thread and was a friend of the dead pilot that gave a clear idea of what might have happened.

As to some asserting that the speed of the preliminary report's release is too fast- I would like to say that the voice recorder is just a tape that records conversations just like our phones and mp3's so what's the big deal? Even a child can listen to a conversation and report it within 5mins. Analyzing the Data Recorder is where the real work is. That will take much longer and requires real expertise.

Perhaps we need to go back to the report itself before engaging in insinuations?

ikeyman00: @@@@

davdandam(m): 7:34am

By the way i tell u to ur face u are talking nonesense; absolutely bullsssssssssssssssss! Useless opposition that will never see anything good; useless opposition that tell us the timing of SNC is bla blah

who told u thrust generate lift; so why then plane got wings; ehh? make una hold me for nl; i go break bottle for una head one day!the air flow under the wing is slower than top of the wing; the extraction and elevation of the flap can either compress more air under the wing or reduce then lift is generated.

now next time u are on board make sure u sit near the window; then take note as take off incidental happens as the flaps are almost fully extracted but as soon as the plane reaches its flying altitude then watch as the flap are retracted!

now question; do u still call for resignation after this

You Sir, this is one load of tosh! Arrant Nonsense and a complete trash

Now can We go back to the AIB report, though preliminary, perhaps we can deduce 2 and 2 to make a 4

taharqa: Good Lawd!!! I thought you died!.... Thank God o

Dead? I have much better things in life to engage simpletons especially of your kind in unproductive discuss. This is a one off to correct the blissful ignorance on display.

davdandam: Point of correction, flaps do not generate lift, it's just part of an aircraft control surface used for pitching. All lift comes from the thrust that is being generated by the engines.

In this scenario, both the inability of the flaps to deploy and the lost of power from one of the engine lead to the crash. If I should analyze what happened, the pilots took off from the run way pitching the plane at a wide angle of attack (aoa). However, when it's time to pitch down or reduce the angle of attack of the aircraft after the pilot might had completed the ascension stage, the flaps developed faults. Moreover, the lift-to-drag (L/D) ratio tends to be very low at the end of ascending stage, which if not properly control will stall the aircraft, i.e. the aircraft will loose lift not matter the thrust the engine is producing.

To cut all the technical jargon, at the end of the ascension stage, the pitch was high (wide angle of attack) and the flaps used for controlling the pitch developed fault, the aircraft stalled due to low L/D ratio and came crashing down.
I disagree 100 percent,flaps do not control angle of attack,flap generate additional life.they re called lift augumentin devices,they re used to generate lift at low speed so ur aircraft can av a shorter take off and a lower landin speed

You again Sir, have your head in the right place. Too many wannabes commenting based on little they know and claiming to be experts

manny4life: You know exactly what I meant, unless you're trying to pick my exact words. Flaps cause drags as well as help in generating lifts at slower speeds.

Like I was thought in ground school, thrust DOES NOT generate lift, thrust is the power (N1 and N2) that generate power which propels the aircraft forward direction causing enough airflow over the wings, with a little curvature from the flaps, causing the aircraft to lift when you pull back on the controls.

When you talk about pitch/yaw, that's the elevator/rudder controls, that's something totally different.

Thank you

Having avoided commenting in this forum for a very very long time due to how this forum has been turned into a place for display of ignorance, I just could not but respond to you on this issue!

You sir are one ignorant fellow to have made the statement that Thrust DOES NOT generate lift.

Simply, Lift (L) =1/2. x density x velocity^2 x referenced surface area x Lift Coefficient (CL) ....equation (1)

As you Sir can see from the equation (1) Lift is function of velocity, air density, referenced surface area, and the non-dimensional Lift coefficient.

You Sir need to explain why a thin Plate without a Flap/slat still lift in the wind tunnel based on Von Karma's lift principles based on vortices?

I shall comment on the preliminary findings from the AIB and also reference one of the paragraphs in the report you quoted where cues were given and yet you completely missed it.

Hint: Why did the DFDR not record the aircraft speed which is one of the primary variables we tend to use a lot in the other derivatives we code into the DFRD? Go back and read your post and the referenced paragraph of that report.

Your comments on Pitch and Yaw gave you away. I can prove to your that an aircraft can pitch up, yaw without elevators/rudder!

Hints2 : Aircraft doing a "coordinated turn" with a bank angle less than 90degs.

I await your answers with due patience