₦airaland Forum

manny4life: Yab you ke?

No, it's the person who said that THRUST GENERATES LIFT,

So I was wondering if that's the case, an airplane should fall immediately it looses power..

Serial Liar,
Did you not claim you never said flaps generated Lift

How shall we then take you serious when you are so self compromising

Yes, I am graceful to be a high calibre engineer who design real aircraft with the best civilian aircraft OEM in the world.

A half baked pilot like yourself who have not managed to achieved a type -rating on even an Q-400 is the least I would consider a pilot. Prove me wrong and tell us how many flight hours you have accumulated and yet you had the guts to spew rubbish about the Associated Airline pilots earlier.

Nonso23: pardon my intrusion... Planes might glide even after loosing power because momentarily the imparted momentum from the accumulated thrust can provide the aircraft with sufficient velocity to keep climbing until air friction reduces this velocity such that all the parameters cannot support the plane anymore... Its just like throwing a paper plane.. When you throw it initially it climbs (engine in this case is the hand) after climbing for sometime it gradually loses altitude and glides down.. I am no expert o... Just an eng student.. Pls don't yab me 2much...thanks

Please do not waste your time explaining simple physics to a so called flying school trained PILOT! I refused to answer simply, for someone who could not understand how Aircraft can pitch without the 'complete' aid of elevators, explaining to His the theory of glide flight will be a waste of time.

manny4life: Lol, you can twist what I said... Like I said... No comment

FAKE ENGINEER

I respect Donedy more than you...

Someone who couldn't answer a simple question, as soon as donedy replied... He replies

Who ask for you respect? Serial Liar, who when found out started changing lines and twisting words. I have noted you on here for months how you mislead people with your nonsensical comments on aviation threads with your blabbing claims of " I went to flying school blah blah blah" yet lack a thing on the simples of flight mechanics

manny4life: Haha.... who talked about constant thrust? EXPERTO engineer

Dude, you're just bickering around...abegi siddon jare..

who said this in on page 9 response to chuck? Seria liar

manny4life:

Yes flaps generate lift, however, he forgot to deploy the flaps...

Both engines were running but where they generating enough thrust for him to lift?

manny4life: Oh, so full flaps does create drag after all? And the drag is to do what? Lower the speed abi?

Then I rest my case... Nothing further.

You are trying to be clever by half! Typical Nigerian init? Flap creating drag at landing equates to your nonsensical comments earlier that flap creates lift?

manny4life: Haha, who doesn't know about straight and level? Lol... you couldn't answer a simple question I asked you four times

Yet you call yourself an engineer?

Engineer for mouth... Abeg, take a seat jare...

Only an ediots would actually answer such a foolish question that A Levels students here know so well. I ask again, which aircraft are you type rated for?

manny4life: You guys have twisting my words, please pull where I said Flaps generate lift? I've always said, it helps in the lift process.

In the bold part, I remembered asking you, if THRUST generated LIFT, how come when an engine is in idle, why does the plane come crashing to the floor

Constant THRUST is not these same as an idle engine! Get your terminologies right Expert PILOT

FYI, at cruise altitude, straight and level flight, Lift = Weight, and Thrust = Drag. Forces are balanced, so why should you expect the plane to fall out of the sky?

manny4life: You keep talking about gliders like GEEZ, I asked a simple question

You said, THRUST generates LIFT, I agree...

I asked you, if that's the case, kindly explain when an airplane looses power, as an engineer, how does the airplane glide?

When does a heavy aircraft turn into a glider?

Donedy has given you a very briliant response.

A simple look at the equation for straight and level flight says it all! Dude are you sure you truly went to a flying school in the USA at all? Hope you did not go to those half-baked ones in Florida..hehe,

manny4life: I never said it generates lift, I've often said it help or yet augments the lift...

What I've always said was the air flowing over the wings + the power generated from the thrust pushing the airplane forward with the help of flaps augmenting it generates lift. Please go back to my previous post


I was taught lower flaps setting augment (the right term) lift and a higher deployment causes a drag to the airplane, wouldn't that explain why FULL flaps are deployed after landing?

Maybe you need to starting thinking for yourself rather than spilling what you were told! Deployment of Flaps during landing is used to induced more drag, as the Drag equation clearly would prove. However, how do you explain aircraft that have landed when the hydraulic actuators on the flap tracks fail to deploy the Flaps?

manny4life: Too much long story...

Again, you said Thrust generates Lift, and I said OKAY... If that's true, kindly explain how an plane glides when it looses power...Is that too much to ask for?

Seriously, if you are asking for explanation on how gliders make their flight and you call yourself a pilot, I rest my case! Like I told you, I am not here to argue, rather to buttress the fact of the theoretical physics I know and use as part of my daily routine.

[quote author=Somorin#1]In 2035 I should be retired by then so won't be in any rush to get anywhere and can enjoy travelling by ships.

Regardless of redundancies, I personally will still prefer someone up front.

Even more critical than passenger flights, I know we routinely send unmanned spacecrafts to the ISS so the technology has always been there.[/quote]Lol, grandpa traveling by Shop like Costa Concordia with some long pipe eh? Relax! That is why brains like me were born to make these things happen and make them safe

Imagine, years ago, launching a pilotless spacecraft to ISS would be deemed suicidal right? But today, are we not sending cargos to ISS with any man on baord? Our sister company has two modules and more is being designed that would be completely pilotless and with robots that would carry out experimental research

manny4life: Thanks for vindicating me that Thrust is what provides the power that accelerates the aircraft forward and the airflow on the wings is what gives rise to change in pressure. However, doesn't this contradict to what you "engineers" put out on your manual? Deploying of FULL flaps greater than 30deg and during rake off roll?

Thank you for the bold,

At least I know I;m no engineer but my instructors where right after all.

You deploy flaps to help you augment your speed, i.e. your 30 degree settings mean on certain run and weather conditions, you will require less speed to take off and the 'available' runway.

It is not there to generate lift

manny4life: Haha, are you running away from the question,

According to you, if thrust generates lift, how does an airplane that looses power glide?

If you do not know, one of the courses you take during your aeronautical degree study involves the power of flight and majorly it talks about how gliding do take place. Anderson's book I gave you the link earlier explains it well. Go and read it, hopefully you will get some understanding on how lift is initiated in a glider.

manny4life: Did I say you retract flaps during V1 and V2?

You seriously need help. I said flaps are retracted at higher speeds, after takeoff and reached a certain level and you're here yarning nonsense

I guess you're the one with comprehension problem, go back and read again.

Hehe, I am not sure you really know what Higher Speed regime is

[quote author=Somorin#1]I'm not certain if I'll get on a flight with no one in the cockpit.

Things do go wrong. No data but I'm pretty sure that some UAV were lost due to malfunction.

I'll settle for modern Cat3 autoland with two guys up front.[/quote]Okay, then be prepared to stop flying The European clean sky project has this as one of its derivatives, ( not actually the core) so the next bird you may see fly in say 2035 onward might actually by remote pilot birds.

Have you ever thought of how well the redundancies built into control surfaces over the years has enhanced auto piloting for both landing and cruise? So why should we shall away to exploring the frontiers further?

donedy: All you need is for me to teach you basic aerodynamics. Flaps, ailerons, rudders are just there as control surface, and nothing much. The wing is just used as a floatation and stabilizing device.

At cruising altitude or during level flight, the wing is used to balance the weight of the aircraft depending on the airspeed.

For your information, flaps are used to pitch the aircraft when the aircraft has attained the required take off speed. This is how take-off works: the engine provides all the thrust which accelerate the aircraft forward, the expansion of air as it flow on top of the wing gives rise to change in pressure in direction normal to the wings. However, that the pilot won't deploy the flaps until the aircraft has attained the required take-off speed. Once the speed is attained, the flaps is then deployed at a very high angle upward, typically>30 degrees, which couple with speed will change the AoA.

For your information, it's only notice like you will say the flaps develop lift, No it does not. The expansion happening on the top of the wing, due forward thrust gives rise to lift. The pilot then deploys flaps at the right time to change the direction of the thrust vector; which is why the front gear lift off before the last two gears.

Believe me; I'm an Aeronautics and Astronautics Engineer!

Agreed with much said except the part in bold. Flaps are set before ground roll is initiated and the horizontal stabilizers is used to balanced the aircraft to ensure ground man oeuvre stability take-off run.

Like our sweet birds, we generally have three flap settings for take-offs depending on the airport you operate to, the local weather there and your payload in general.

Everything else is spot on!

manny4life: Haha, they are the expert engineers, I also made a comment about how does an airplane glide without an engine?

So you were not clever enough to figure out that the engine Thrust is replaced by the human pull power when you begin the gliding

manny4life: This is why you should leave flying to those who fly airplanes. So after V2, and you're still climbing, according to the takeoff checklist which you designed, does it call for retracting of flaps or not? I never knew you can have flaps deployed at high speed?

Didnot realize comprehension was your problem. Did you not read where I said "between V1 AND v2 ??

[quote author=Somorin#1]He's right about test Pilots are Engineers.

http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers/archive/2005/june/ts_sf03.html[/quote]Thanks for that link, that would make an interesting reading. I knew so well that major OEMs like boeing, Bombardier, Embraer, and including our own test flight department is manned by engineers with aeronautical degrees and donkey years of engineering and flight test.

[quote author=Somorin#1]There was a flight that flew over LAX, their destination, because the flight crew was asleep. It was a diligent flight attendant that noticed that the flight was taking longer that finally knocked on the cabin door to wake them up.

Statistically, aircraft are very safe vehicles with tons of redundancies, the Achilles heel is we the humans. This is why many manufacturers are going to more automated avionics.[/quote]In fact, We have already starting looking into Automated synchronized flight operations as the future because if we have been able to deploy UAVs in Pakistan using bases as far away as the US, or even UK ( as in the case of Afghanistan UAV deployment by our RAF) it means we can and should carry out more research to validate our theories of onboard pilotless commercial flights. We did a demonstration earlier this year with one of the engine OEM ( whom I would not mention here for obvious reasons) and the results have been quite promising.

Hopefully, we can stretch the boundary further from just auto pilot at cruise or landing to incldue all regimes of flight Perhaps have base stations with trained flight engineers manning like in USAF or RAF flying these sweet birds we keep designing

[quote author=Somorin#1]Regarding the thrust and lift argument.

IMHO both parties are correct.

Thrust itself does not generate lift. The wings do when air moves over and under the wings.

1) This is why we tie down light airplanes when parked in gusty areas. Not that they'll fly away perse but they can be easily flipped in realtively minor wind compared to their weight.

2) Gliders have no engines as they are pulled. So while we can argue that they are using the thrust of the pulling plane we should still remember that the actual glider has no engine to provide thrust to take off and requires no engine to maintain lift once in the air.

3) On a total engine failure, there was a case of a 747 that flew through volcanic ash and lost all four engines, the Captain still had lift but traded altitude for forward speed.

In regards to the crash.

We can only speculate until we get the equivalent of an NTSB report. Speculation is okay IMHO but it is just that, speculation.

My speculation based on the current information that we have is that the Captain has performed a no flap take off before, successfully.

This embolden him to try it again as his now common personal treat but unfortunately during the roll the FO noticed that the engines were not providing enough thrust that will enable the wings to generate the necessary lift.

Had the necessary thrust been there, or had the flaps been set properly then they might have struggled into the air after V1 and return back to the airport.

This not following manufacturers instructions also caused the death of over 200 people in the USA when mechanics invented their own method of engine removal against written manufacturers method.

Again, speculations until we have final report.

PS: For the folks involved in air operations in Nigeria, can you tell us if Nigeria practices and fosters cockpit management style that allows junior officers to question decisions made by Captains and to go as far as taking corrective actions[/quote]I think you actually answered yourself by your second point = Gliders have not engines but they are 'PULLED' across. If wings generate lift, why don't the gliders stay still and allow air to flow over them so they can fly Tells you that the general misconception of the mechanics of flight is so flawed because have refused to think we their heads

manny4life: I NEVER said that flaps generated lifts, I said, flaps helps in generating or yet augmenting lift... At higher speed, yes you retract the flaps because they cause a drag...

Hehe, another ignorant comment! Flaps are retracted because of Drag. What a load of tosh So how come between V1 and V2 when you need the power the most you still have your flaps out which according to you should create more drag thereby slowing down the aircraft? Why are they are retracted just after lift off

Chei....I hope you are not flying planes in Nigeria yet and if in the US that you are flying those agricultural planes close to Arizona desert

comradestalk: What was the work load of the pilot... sometimes when you are overworked you tend to make irrational decision!

Good question! That is why I said Associated Airlines operating manual and procedure should be review ASAP! We know too well over the UK how many pilots fall asleep whilst at FL3000 with hundreds of souls on board with some even asleep themselves

manny4life: Lol

No one is bragging...Well I guess if ignorant mofos handle it, why is it that Boeing hires test pilots to fly their own airplanes? Why don't you engineers fly that same airplane? Talk about designing something you're afraid to fly ... Who's the ignorant and glorified nama? If you can't or afraid to fly your own machine, that sure speaks highly about you..

Actually, Boeing test pilots are Engineers if you did not know. Our Chief test pilot background is aeronautical engineering. Pilots of old had to study at least two years of aeronautical engineering before they proceed to flying. But these days, ignorant mofos are packed into a boxed room to mark papers prepared by us -engineers for them to memorize so they can fly the sweet birds we design.

Before any plane flies in reality, we have already flown it, hence the reasons we give you limitations that you mofos always fail to adhere to, ending up killing innocent souls.

FYI, we have mastered inverse control law to an extent that very soon, Pilots will become optional in civil flights. One of our demonstrator civil craft this year completed a trans-oceanic flight with control algorithm from ground and results show very promising future indeed.

We are fed up of mofos who want to destroy the industry for us, hence we need to cut them out or minimized them completely in the loop of things.

manny4life: Apparently, there seems to be a disconnect between you Engineers and the pilots,

Engineers says, "FLAPS DOES NOT GENERATE LIFE @ SLOW SPEEDS"

Meanwhile on the flight line, you're told otherwise... Hmm, talk about a great disconnect?

FLAPS DO NOT GENERATE LIFT AT HIGH SPEED EITHER! Your flaps are retracted at Higher Speed for a clean configuration. Maybe you need to go back and really get your basics right.

Flaps mainly are there to augment the lift. If you take a look at your lift equation, you would find that surface area is one of the variables in it. So with your flaps extended, you increase the surface area, delay the on-set of circulation ( which creates lift through air particle acceleration by the engines [inverse flow law]) hence you improve the lift which is already there in the first place.

I asked you, If FLAPS generate lift, does SLATs also generate lift

donedy: For you information, I've a degree in Aeronautics & Astronautics engineering. We build the aircraft people like you learn how to fly. Thrust is what gives rise to lift: The control surfaces are there to change the direction of thrust vector. Also, thrust is not power. The rated power of the jet engine determines the amount of thrust it can produce; which depends on many factors like AoA, wind direction, e.t.c.

Modern commercial airplane uses jet propulsion engines, so

NEVER say FLAPS generate LIFT; they are mere control surface for changing the direction of the thrust vector.

ALL POWER TO THE ENGINE!

Hehe, Another one with His head on... THANKS FOR EDUCATING HIM A LITTLE

Actually He could not figure out why FLAPS are called LIFT AUGMENTING DEVICES and not LIFT GENERATING DEVICES or Why the SLAT & FLAPS are called HIGH LIFT DEVICES and not LIFT GENERATING DEVICES!

manny4life: Haha, at least, I've been to flight school, had my license and my Instrument Rating ... however, never knew that Aero. Eng make excellent pilots

If you have issues to what I said, please feel free to make a contact

Landing gear makes the aircraft land...Lol, you're funny...

Don't get me started on Pilots - aka classified ignorant mofos who despite being told hold to operate a thing correctly can't figure out how to do it.

I hope you are not trying to brag that you have been to school to read book, diagrams and instructions engineers like myself have written for your so you could figure out what and how the machine we design actually works

Like one of my colleague said just last week, Pilots are advanced bus drivers with the difference being one in on ground the other in the air! The level of reasoning is inversely proportional to the distance that separate them .. Hope someone figures out what this actually mean

manny4life: I am not here to argue with you, it will be a waste of time... I did not go to ERAU to do study engineering, I was there for Aeronautical Science + Flight...don't get it wrong. Again, if you have issues to what I said, I'll be more than glad to initiate a contact. Challenge your theories with field experts. Like I maintain, the experts in the filed clearly stated what I had said....Deuces.

Maybe you need to let us engineers do the talking when it comes to subject matter like this? Huh FYI, there is no theories to challenge, it is just common sense which is always lacking in most cases!

I explain to you the natural convention on how airflow would create lift. However, because of the size of aircraft, that airflow speed is not enough to generate lift, so the inverse is to accelerate the mass through the flow and create the same effect but much higher pressure force ( due to increase in speed, i.e. dynamic pressure = 1/2 x desnity x velocity squared) and your engines do the acceleration, hence THRUST.

If at all you remember your parabolic diagram on Thrust to Lift ratio plot super-imposed on your lift/drag plot. aka your drag parabolar, then you would not be making such statements like ones you made in your previous post!

manny4life: That's the behavior of someone who's trying so HARD to win an argument, unfortunately, I know him and that's how he argues.

Imagine you that stand to condemn the pilots also is not competent in the subject matter. I am here to argue, rather to put straight the correct theoretical and physical assumptions on flight mechanics and to correct your flawed and misleading submissions on this subject matter.

Like I said in my very first post on this thread, I avoided NL for long and will ( when I am bored of this thread) because of people like you that glory in ignorant and rejoice in stupidity.

WING GENERATE LIFT my foot Soon they will tell us Landing Gear makes the aircraft land

manny4life: You're an Aeronautical Engineer and work for a major OEM, yet you once claimed on previous posts that you worked in Lagos for a aviation company... I did not know that a major OEM was in Lagos, haha. I decided not to answer you because it will be pouring water on rock, but hey, if you studied Aeronautical Engineering, go and challenge your theories with experts in the field.

Google is a wonderful tool, I tell ya, but like I said, if you have anything to what I said, contact Embry Riddle Aeronautical University (Engineering Dept) and ask about what I said. The experts on there clearly stated what I said. I have nothing further to add.

Please bring up the post where I made such a claim. I dare you to. Most people that know my handle on NL know I do not live in Lagos and I do not live in Nigeria either.

Yes, I am graceful to say that is my field and as a practicing expert in the field, I know what I am talking about and I also know what you are blabbing on about is not what your lecturers taught you.

I have referenced two very good aerodynamic text I always recommend for First year Aerospace students and it will do you well to go read them too. I am sure you will find how flawed your understanding of flight mechanics is.


Even if your lecturers taught you something incorrect, perhaps, the reason you went to engineering school was to develop your brain with basic understanding of physics so you too can formulate physical problems without recourse to anyone?

I have challenged you to prove otherwise the source of the VELOCITY SQUARED in the lift equation and also tell us why Engines have different settings for different weather temperature operations

peleson: Na so all aboki go dey do non sense dey put naija backward.. 30yrs of misrule . This was a suicide.

You Sir should be learned enough to understand that investigation is still not completed, therefore you can not absolve anyone of blame yet! Imagine if it is established that the pilot did follow the Airline operating procedure for departure, then the regulatory oversight of the adequacy of the Airline Operating Manual shall come into question and that is when the Minister 'maybe' called in order to explain why and how the airline was able to have such misplaced OM.

So let us wait for the final investigation and recommendation by AIB before making stupid comments. After all, some of the best military and civilian pilots Nigeria has had are from Northern part of the country.

I am also sure that Nigeria has had airline crashes with Pilot from Southern part being in control of the cockpit - right So it is not an ethnic thing as your 'good' head seems to think