₦airaland Forum

ifele:
The truth is women should not be allowed to preach according to Saint Paul's doctrine or have authority over men.

I don't think that the apostle Paul debarred women from preaching; although he was averse to women usurping authority over men. I've watched this thread with some interest, and think that the arguments here are akin to those in a similar thread.

Perhaps the following might be helpful -

       goodguy's comments; --
       (pls see the links he posted in his reply, and here).

       Donzman's repost from another source, with summary.

ogajim:
I said giving should be between the giver and God, Jesus warned us against giving or praying like the pharisees so I don't need to make my commitment or the lack thereof known to anyone if I don't feel a need to. The standard percentage based giving is not for me ( though it can come in handy come April 15), I don't need write-offs when it comes to matters of faith.

Hahaha. . . Oga, how many people do you know have been saying they give tithes because they resemble pharisees? You just jump into thread, and comot as you enter without making impact - wetin happen??

[quote author=Tùdor link=topic=277404.msg3966418#msg3966418 date=1243968934]@pilgrim
far from it,tithing in churches is'nt by your free volition
On the contrary,pastor preaches on tithe, says if you don't pay you 'rob' god quoting malachi 3 in the process. Member naturally thinks robbing god is a crime/sin (taking into consideration threats issued in malachi 3 by god). He then has no option than to pay coz he doesn't plan to steal from the lord.
Now if its by free will as you're insinuating,members should be CLEARLY told its not compulsory.[/quote]@Tùdor,

Thanks for your concerns. Unfortunately, I do not argue from sentiments or the flat opinion of the general public. I'm aware that many misunderstand this issue about tithing, and in my various posts I've endeavoured to show how many anti-tithers argue with assertions that are false and very misleading.

Take, for instance, the question of volition: several anti-tithers know that tithing could be voluntary: they've said so, written and published that it is so, and point to many references that clearly state that it is precisely so. Inspite of this, they often would not remind their crowds of this fact, and will forever sing the mantra that it is "compulsory". That is scenario 1.

Now, scenario 2: I used to follow the same misleading argument by demagoguery which saw tithing as always and only "compulsory" - nothing about it being voluntary. No less so, because both at home (Nigeria) and abroad some pastors indeed have preached it as compulsory. So, I argued endlessly that the tithe was 'evil. . a fraud. . false', etc. Ironically, in my anti-tithing days I realized that condemning tithing did not make me a generous giver; and also, I witnessed the same attitude first-hand among many anti-tithing leaders that condemned even fellow pastors who dared to preach tithes. Sadly, I confess that these few anti-tithers were the most stingy of leaders I ever met in religious circles, bar none!

Scenario 3: again, I realized within a short time that many anti-tithers were lying through their teeth. I mean, how many times have they been asked about certain statements they made, and when asked for clarification, they excused those questions and immediately resorted to uncouth language and ad hominems. I know you're not inclined to Christianity (pls correct me if I'm wrong); but it was a shame when I discovered the very assertions I borrowed from these 'respected' anti-tithers were false and could not be Biblically defended. The last one that turned me around was the one that "Jews today no longer tithe" - and if you check carefully (Google if you may), you would find that this fallacy is recycled by some 'Christian' minister(s) who leave no honestly substantiated references for what they say! Whereas, I discovered to the contrary from reliable sources that Jews today still tithe - most of them from the incomes!

Enter scenario 4: all that I had previously argued as an anti-tither up until that time collapsed, and I started afresh to look at the subject objectively. My attitude also changed, and today I'm not drawn to slurring people just because of the subject of tithes. What was my surprise - I visited so many churches in the USA, listened to several other pastors from around the world where I had not visited - and amazingly, these churches or pastors clearly preach tithes as not compulsory, and yet I witnessed their congregations tithe regularly and cheerfully. I could cite some examples for you upon request. But the point is that most of the things being claimed by anti-tithers are plain irresponsible lies! That is why they cannot defend their assertions from Scripture; that is why they shy away from dialogue; that is why they won't discuss or show intelligent answers for what they claim. . . but they enjoy castigating pastors who preach tithes and then justify themselves in doing so!


Now, is it only "tithing" pastors that may get it wrong? NO. I'm not inclined to the interpretation that a Christian who does not tithe could be cursed; but I certainly don't think that anybody who preaches tithe from Malachi 3 could be damned!

Secondly, I believe that many anti-tithers themselves have made far worse damning statements against tithing and tithers - including the false idea that those who tithe are going to hell! You decide, if you can: which one is worse:

someone sending people to hell for tithing?

or

someone cursing people for not tithing?

On either side, we find people making such obviously false and ignorant statements with a zeal beyond this world; and they would justify themselves in their fallacies. Good that this thread seeks to ask if tithing is a salvific issue; and clearly it is NOT - so what are these fellows doing busying themselves with false statements on either side of the fence?

The bottom line for me is this: on either side, people make mistakes - both pro-tithers and anti-tithers. Yet, it's not my style to castigate anyone (pro- or anti-) who makes unsubstantiated and even false assertions. I would rather seek to dialogue amicably to correct misunderstandings and also promote a healthy understanding to encourage what I'm persuaded about. That does not mean I should "force" my views on anyone; and anti-tithers cannot force their views on anyone else either. It is not enough to denounce or discourage tithing; for if anti-tithers actually have nothing against tithes, they should ENCOURAGE it and stop doodling on their inconsistencies.

Cheers.

@chukwudi44,

chukwudi44:
You are the most confused person on this site ,you acknowlege the fact that tithing(10%) is not compulsory yet you criticize people who condemn preachers of compulsory tithing.Please if I may ask on which side of the divide are you?

First, I'm not confused; and I hope we can discuss without these unnecessary personal attacks. If you cannot help yourself until you slur someone, please let me know: I usually like to give enough warning about this unhealthy attitude in discussions before I treat such rascality with a no-nonsense response.

However, I indeed have argued that tithing (not just 10%) is not "compulsory" or "mandatory" - infact, my position is simply that anti-tithers and others should not argue to make any type of giving a matter of what is mandatory to any Christian.

Yet, my critique is not on people who condemn preachers of "compulsory tithing". Infact, I do not take the position of "condemning" people, but rather that we share our persuasions and understandings in a healthy manner. For all that, what I oppose is false spirituality that is both ignorant and malicious. One cannot keep castigating "pastors" repeatedly just because they don't like tithing, and then come back to say it is "perfectly okay" for Christians to tithe from their income. The typical anti-tithing mantra so far has been that "pastors" (without distinguishing anyone) who preach 'tithes' must by default be a "thief, criminal, etc". Many of us know very Godly pastors who teach tithes to their congregations and their lives witness to their Godliness; we also know of many Churches who preach tithes without making it a "compulsory" burden upon their members. If we cared at all, we cannot as Christians let such anti-tithers' demonizing of "pastors" in such a manner as if any and all 'pastors' who mention tithes are "criminals"! If you have no heart to see that such an attitude is unhealthy, it's a wonder anyone should take you seriously.

chukwudi44:
By the way who told you anti-tithing arguments are collapsing?

Is it not self-evident? I wonder how it is that many questions that anti-tithers have asked have been well-addressed; but anti-tithers rarely ever provide answers to questions offered them. Second, who's always slurring people as the first resort simply because their anti-tithing arguments are waning? How many of your own anti-tithing arguments have stood up with a spine?

chukwudi44:
On the contrary more people are being made to know the truth about giving in the church.

Oh, you're losing it now, hehe. .   We're very aware of giving in the church; go ask anti-tithers why they have huge problems about GIVING IN THE CHURCH!  You make a very weak appeal here, chukwudi44.

chukwudi44:
I can assure you that I won't personally stop preaching against this heretic and criminal practise until the day I breathe my last.

So, what really is the "heretic and criminal practice" - the tithes, or your version of misplaced arguments? Tell me, please: why is tithing such a bane to you personally? You want to campaign against this subject. . . to your "last breath", I wish you well. Is it worth your life insurance preaching against tithes? Is it?

chukwudi44:
I would give in my very best to expose these fraudsters masquareding as men of God,even when I know that they will receive their just reward I would try my best to free as many people as I can from this bondage.

Fraudsters abound on either side - and making false statements against tithers is also a fraud, did you know? What is the 'bondage' you're killing yourself over? Perhaps it never occurs to you that your own misplaced arguments and joining a bandwagon to slur other people does not make you any closer to being a 'man-of-God'. I know - the temptation to demonize those who do not belong to your camp is irrestible, it often is so for the anti-tithers. No genuine man of God who preaches tithe should see your life ambition as of any consequence. Tara.

@ogajim,

How body? Thank you for your concerns. Let me address them.

ogajim:
PG.1, I thought "tithe" meant 10% but if not, my bad!

It basically includes that, but is not restricted to that amount.

ogajim:
Tithe as taught today in the charismatic churches is a SCAM

That's your opinion, and it's not my style to start pointing accusing fingers at anyone indiscriminately - whether pentecostal, Catholic, charismatic, etc. However, I know many churches that teach tithes in a very healthy way and have benefitted their congregations in more ways that you and I know.

ogajim:
Jesus Christ I LOVE but most of these "men of God"

Does that not remind us against the warning of self-righteousness? No, I'm not demeaning your opinions, as I used to argue like that in the past. As many mature Christians have added to my understanding, it would be unwise of me to adopt such attitudes.

ogajim:
Jesus did castigate, admonish, condemn, etc the pharisees for their ways and warned (real Christians) never to emulate them

Please re-read what I stated earlier:

    'The Christ we know from Scripture does not go about maliciously accusing pastors
     with your pseudo-spirituality. . '

I still do not find any where that Christ was "maliciously accusing" pastors - do you care to quote some for us? Second, I don't know if you ever found Him condemning or "maliciously accusing" anyone for tithing at all - do you? If you did, could you show us simply? Thank you in advance.

ogajim:
The real Christians are the "Church", "temple" of God and not some building whatever it's name

Did I, or have I, argued otherwise?

ogajim:
Matt.6:22-25, ignorance or the curtailment of enlightenment is a disease and ought to be called that.

Would you be willing to also call it precisely that when anti-tithers are shown their own ignorant statements which they cannot defend?

ogajim:
1Tim 2:5, 6:10, Hebrews 10:12,9:15, Rev. 1:6, 5:10, I could go on but why?

And your point is. . .?

ogajim:
Giving like prayer should be between the Christian and God QED

And how does that say that 'tithing' and the Christian is any less?

ogajim:
They could have pulled this off when the Bible wasn't available to everyone or when folks weren't literate enough to read but haba.

Oh thank goodness we have the Bible AND our God-given intelligence to challenge the hubris and ignorance of anti-tithers. Haba.

ogajim:
Jesus came as a server-leader with no difference in appearance between him and his Apostles hence Judas had to be bribed to finger him, good luck finding that kind of Leadership today.

And that is supposed to show how tithing is inimical to your spirituality? Was Judas asking you for any tithes? Why bring that into this subject? Desperate. . . or what, really?

ogajim:
Jesus Christ is the only Perfect one and there's non like HIM.

Lol, and that shows how you can then withdraw your hand from a true commitment to give, no?

Thanks all the same; but I had hoped for a more challenging substance to your comments.

chukwudi44:
pILGRIM PLEASE AM NOT AGAINST THOSE THAT TITHE(10%) WILLINGLY.I ONLY WANT TO FREE SOME INNOCENT CHRISTIANS FROM THE BONDAGE OF CRIMINALS WHO SAYS IT IS COMPULSORY TO TITHE.

I'm sorry, chukwudi44 - you don't have to shout! Trying to free others requires you to be clear and not just throw words carelessly around. If you're not against tithing per se, why have you NOT been encouraging others to actually tithe? Using language carelessly to slur people is what defeats the anti-tithers who claim that they are fighting "criminals". Your line of argument is not quite helpful afterall.

Image123:
@KunleOshob
please stop being under delusion. Whats all this continual claim about tithers wanting to scam you. Have I mentioned my bank or bank details, or has pilgrim.1 or anybody else done that? Abi you no know wetin be scam? All this talk about falling for scams is at best myopic and perhaps 'self-delusional'. You're never forced to tithe or give anything to or for God.

When anti-tithers no get wetin to talk again, the latest song they compose is that everybody dey do 'scam' - which is quite a limp excuse for their failing arguments.

chukwudi44:
Pastors have been scamming their congregation for years telling them it is compulsory to pay tithes.They are the scammers we are after.

What exactly do you mean by "pastors"? If you make such broad generalizations, does that show you a better person who's better or more righteous than many pastors whose lives you know nothing about? Second, if you're going to be honest, you'll find that not everyone who chooses to tithe argues a "compulsory" or "mandatory" tithe - this is evident from the references I gave you earlier, where they noted that tithes could be voluntary!

chukwudi44:
I bet you this tithe scam would go down in history as the greatest scam ever.

Nope, it's the anti-tither's confused arguments that will be long remembered as the greatest problem in this subject.

pureminded:
@Pastor, Them tell you say pastor no sabbi better thing abi if you come be pastor , you don loose taste be that ?

You're being "real" o jare!

segyemaro:
solo,you better keep your keep your kool,cos pilgrim here will not reason with you,if she(he)believe in tithes then pilgrim can pay tithe,i have decided not to join issues with her(him)again,and i will appreciate if kunle does same,cos she(he)is here to confuse people.shikena

@segyemaro,

What is the substance of your accusations, really? That someone "will not reason with you" and also is "here to confuse people" - why are those the typical attitudes of anti-tithers? Why do you guys start out accusing other believers simply because your anti-tithing arguments cannot be defended calmly or intelligently, and is fast collapsing upon you? Please tell me: why is it that anti-tithers cannot discuss this subject until they have quickly turned to ad hominems, accuse others, duck questions, claim things they cannot defend, get vexed and resort to cheap vituperation. . . just to argue their anti-tithing theology?

You have chosen to not tithe, and that's okay. Nobody here is forcing you to do otherwise. Tithers who choose to do so cheerfully, have not resorted to slurring your person just because you disdain tithing. Also, they are not given to castigating "pastors" just because of this subject. You don't have to feel so badly and then quickly abandon the discussion so as to now focus on a personal campaign against other people who choose to tithe or encourage it in their teaching or congregations. The more you demonstrate this unfortunate attitude of resorting to slurs, the more you defeat and cheapen your cause.

KunleOshob:
Mesopotomian civilization[where abraham came from]highlighted above confirms the origin as pagan to any student of the bible or history. Abraham obviously learnt about tithing from this culture as God never instructed him when he did so of his own free volition to the king of Salem

I suspected that was what might be on your mind, but didn't want to prejudge it. The fact that something "is known in Mesopotamia" does not mean that it originated from there. Nothing in that reference argues that tithing was first known or first practiced in Mesopotamia; and thank you for acknowledging indeed that Abraham's tithe to the king of Salem was of his own free volition - just as tithers today choose to do so.

solosimple:
Both of u need not to quote me wrong. My words are clear enough to interpret itself.
But one thing is sure, a good and sincere Bible Student knows who is saying the truth between the two of you.
Thank God we all have The Bible.

You need to be clearer than that, solo. This is ambiguous, and risks being misquoted and misunderstood again.

ogajim:
Tithe issue again? With the same DS and SS combatants,
A % requirement is not a real Christian practice and I look at it the same way I look at any scam

Oga, sorry o - you just lost! If you're referring to what I've been posting, please show where I made tithing a matter of "% requirement". Please do so in simple terms, thank you.

KunleOshob:
[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=113108.msg3965440#msg3965440 date=1243958339]Are you now "christ"? Sorry, oga. . you're neither the Redeemer nor the authority of the Word of God. The Christ we know from Scripture does not go about maliciously accusing pastors with your pseudo-spirituality and then come back complaining when your rantings are being addressed.

On the contrary christ was constantly accusing pharisees[the pastors of that time] and condenming their hyprocysis. It is very evident that the pastors of today are not any better[probably even worse][/quote]Okay, please quote me any verse where Christ "constantly accused" anyone because they taught tithing - in precisely the way you have been doing on pastors who teach tithes; and then again show us where Christ tried to "justify" your own attitude inspite of such misplaced pseudo-spirituality.

KunleOshob:
It is very low, cheap, dirty, filthy, digusting and irritating this your continous and repetitive out of context quote which you have been posting here.

Have you finished? What other adjective do you have to complain here since you cannot dialogue and are losing your steam? This is typically the sign that you're beginning to be frustrated at your own games, but I'm not going to banter insolence with you. My apologies, eh?

KunleOshob:
It actually speaks volumes about your character, it says to me that your are a very dis-honest person whom one should be very wary of

Ad hominems, eh? Hehe, this drama is not helping you grow spiritualily, you know. Someone once said that accusative language directed against another's character is a sure sign of weakness - you tempted me before, now you're floating alone. Keep up the foaming in the mouth - that is typical of the "gracious" anti-tithers who know all things.

KunleOshob:
PS: Imagine someone who claims to be a christian resorting to lies on a public forum just to defend her ill conceived fraudulent doctrine from the pits of hell.

Typical - you accuse, allege, tear out your hair, rant, frown, knock your head on your keyboard . . . and a thousand and one sly invectives you may throw, I'm unruffled. You just weaken your position further without my saying it.

KunleOshob:
On the contrary it is more apt for those who twist the word of God to de-fraud his children. It is also apt for those who defend this evil them as well.

And that justifies your happy adventure of demonizing pastors, eh? Well done, sir.

KunleOshob:
Your penchant to quote out of context is not only lengendary but it also reveals a very conceited mind that is desperate to defend a certain position that as been clearly shown to be evil and contrary to the teachings of christ.

Are you now "christ"? Sorry, oga. . you're neither the Redeemer nor the authority of the Word of God. The Christ we know from Scripture does not go about maliciously accusing pastors with your pseudo-spirituality and then come back complaining when your rantings are being addressed.

KunleOshob:
When i wrote that it was perfectly okay to tithe from income i also put a caveat and that is the tither must know the truth about tithes and he must be doing it out of his own free volition and with the knowledge he doesn't have any christian obligation to do it unlike what your criminally inspired pastors preach.

My pastors are not cowards like you, and they do not speak from both sides of their mouth as you do. For all your caveat accusations against pastors, where do you get your own "perfectly okay" tithing from? You speak about "truth" - just simply show it from the Scriptures. Too hard for you to do? . . .and you keep demanding from others the very thing you cannot demonstrate. Well done - your "crown" for justifying your adventures of accusations is waiting indeed.

@solosimple,

solosimple:
The Bible is clear enough that you would always need a second party to help you misunderstand it.
If people will just take God's word the way it is without reading their thoughts, dreams and ambitions into it, there would be no need to argue any point without a sincere and profitable conclusion which would be to the benefits of all. The Apostles had several arguments (reading from the book of Acts) but they always followed the Scripture through for clarity and a profitable conclusion. Sometimes we need to argue a point from many angles in order to get it right. However, we must be careful to pursue only that which bring peace, if the arguments won't do any good to anybody, it's just better to drop it.
The fact that a man just want to keep arguing even when he can see clearly from the Bible that his points are void shows that the man is pioneering a very devilish ambition.

Your last statement about devilish ambition is apt for those who demonise pastors to justify their own pseudo-spirituality.

solosimple:
@Pilgrim1 and Kunle
I've been following your posts and it's to my interest that your arguments is leading to a very good conclusion that many believers can benefit from. God's word holds the final say over all subjects in the Christendom. We cannot add to it, we dare not take away from it, we can only choose to obey and practice it.
Having this at the back of our minds that only the doer of the word is blessed in his deeds!

I guess Pilgrim must be seeing the practice of tithe with better insight now

Well, I'm not justified as the 'authority' on tithes - neither here on this forum, nor elsewhere. Infact, I've greatly benefitted from the discussions and arguments of many people on either side on the subject, most of whom I consider far more brilliant in this issue. The one thing I would ever resist is the diabolical attitude of pretentious "Christian love" that someone uses to malignantly slander pastors constantly and yet justify himself/herself in that attitude.

KunleOshob:
On the contrary it is tithe preaching pastors that cannot defend the scam when the weight of biblical evidence[it's definition, purpose and how it was practised] is shown to them against their own new age definition of it.

Can you then answer the simple question of your own tithe-twisting, Kunle? You cannot be accusing pastors like you're the personal assistant of 'the accuser of the brethren' and yet unable to show your own "perfectly okay" tithing from income for Christians. WHERE do you derive your own "perfectly okay" tithes you have been noising emptily from?

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
Early christians were never encouraged to give all they had although it was recorded in the book of acts that they shared all they had amongst themselves. This was infact an act of charity as the giving was directed to the needy and less priviledge amongst them and NOT the meant for the church leadership

One could say that the early Christians were indeed "encouraged" to give all they had, as we don't read that anyone was "discouraged" or reprimanded for doing so. Both the example in the Gospels (e.g., Luke 21:1-4) and the record of Church history (Acts 4:32) testify to this point in simplicity. In the latter, the context bears out that the sharing was among all who had believed - both congregation and leadership, for there was no dichotomy in that verse. Reading on to the end of that chapter bears out the same two points here: that, (i) believers were not discouraged from giving all that they had; and (ii) everyone - including both congregation and leadership - benefitted from what was gathered from their giving.

KunleOshob:
Well all these churches are led by men/women who have their material needs hence it is convient for them to twist scripture to justify their own personal desires.

Which churches are led by men/women who do not have material needs in one way or the other? Does Scripture not make the point so clearly that leaders have such needs (1 Cor. 9:4, 7-10)?? Why do you ever seek to be so malignant against people who you really have no clue about their lives and circumstances?

KunleOshob:
However there are several warnings in scriptures againt false teahchers, so you should not be suprised that the false teaching of tithing is so wide spread.

It should be obvious that such warnings are precisely for people like who have no clue what they argue and yet are often pretending to be the 'correctors' of others with such attitudes such as you constantly display. Nobody is ever doing right in your super-pseudo-spirituality just because of the mention of 'tithes'; and yet when asked where your own "perfectly okay" tithes can be found in Scripture, you duck that question forever. You who teach others, teachest not thyself? (Rom. 2:3 & 21).

KunleOshob:
The bible also lets of know that a lot of the false teaching is becos of money the verses below would shed more light on what i am saying.

The verses you quoted have nothing to do with anyone teaching tithes. Making false claims and dragooning far-fetched verses to castigate ministers is a hallmark of duplicity.

KunleOshob:
I used to have the same problem you have before thinking "how could all these men of God be wrong? I thought i was missing something but as i researched the issue further and disccussed it with other christians, including pastors and deacons non of them could give any credible defence to tithe given the weight of scriptural evidence i had against it hence my conclusion that they were either ignorant of true christian teachings or they were deliberately twisting scriptures for their own greed.

In other words, after sampling only a couple of your neighbours, you come to the huge conclusion that all pastors who teach tithes must be guilty of your small ideas? Anyone who does not agree with your idea has to be "deliberately twisting scriptures" by default?

@noetic2,

noetic2:
@ Pilgrim

Nice points u have raised. I sincerely have my reservations about tithing (due to the wolves in the church), but cannot pin it down to the law as kunleoshob et all have done, cos even the early christians were encouraged to give ALL they had.

Well said. Indeed, abuse of the subject in many quarters has put off many Christians altogether from giving. The sad thing, though, is that these abuses have come from both sides (pro-tithing and anti-tithing) of the divide, and the confusion and misunderstanding have grown basically from the anti-tithers legalism in mishandling the Law. Funny that when closely examined, so many of the assertions made by anti-tithers cannot be intelligently defended from Scripture. The usual cop-out for them is to resort to the drama of castigating pastors who preach tithe and make everyone guilty by association, simply because the anti-tithing argument is beginning to turn against their own camp.

noetic2:
Thinking that nearly ALL churches who practice tithing could NOT be WRONG spiritually, is the final thin line of argument I hold on to that makes me subscribe to tithing.

Oh well, I wouldn't have guessed that you're inclined to tithing. But that's all good . . . and very salient point in yours, which would be of immense benefit to anti-tithers, if they only stopped to consider it. I could add, though: not all anti-tithers are wrong spiritually, although a good majority of them assume too many things out-of-hand and end up making unsubstantiated statements to their detriment and embarrassment that they cannot defend in good conscience.

[quote author=$osisi link=topic=215255.msg3962294#msg3962294 date=1243904390]To think that Pilgrim was born and raised a Muslim yet with so much incite into the things of God.
What a woman.
God bless you richly[/quote]@$osisi,
What can I say? All thanks to God, and you're very blessed.

KunleOshob:
You forgot to mention that christian financial giving in the passage you mentioned was to help fellow needy christians in jerusalem and it cannot be used to justify the kind and purpose of church collections/offerings/tithes that is practised in our churches today. i just thougt i should point this out given your penchan to quote scripture out of context.

And which passage in the NT have you been quoting out of context to justify your "perfectly okay" tithes from income? We've been through your nightmare in that reference before, until you came round to admit what you had denied previously. Your penchant to self-destruct is magical in itself.

KunleOshob:
Thanx for confirming my earlier assertions that the origins of tithes is pagan.

Which syntax in what you highlighted 'confirms' the "origin" of tithes as pagan to you?

manmustwac:
@pilgrim1
Na woa i can just tell by all your posts on tithing that your very sensitive about the issue. Why?

No, I'm not sensitive about the subject in itself. Quite often anti-tithers just take it for granted that they know it all and there's nothing anyone else says that could matter at all. Of course, no one is being forced to tithe; but anti-tithers should not be using this subject to castigate people just about anyhow.

jagunlabi:
[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=278488.msg3960383#msg3960383 date=1243879312]The one thing I requested was predictably left unanswered, which again leaves the atheist no nearer any susbtance in your assertions. Would you care to attempt it?

What is the request again?[/quote]See:

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=278488.msg3959933#msg3959933 date=1243874436]

jagunlabi:
-Godless?No one can ever be Godless,because God exist within all of us,whether we are aware of it or not.

a simple question: 'how do you know that "God exist within all of us,whether we are aware of it or not"??' Do they just take it for granted that your statement also involves them among that "all of us"?[/quote]

chukwudi44:
@ pilgrim
The oxford advanced learner's dictionary defines tithes as;

One tenth of the annual produce of a farm paid as a tax especially to support the church.

You can see that the tithe is not just only a a tenth but also an anual event which was restricted to just farm produce and never involved money.

Except you want to prove to me that the oxford dictionary is no longer reliable

@chukwudi44,
The definition given by the OLD (Oxford Learners Dictionary) is not the only and all-embracing definition and meaning of the word tithe - there are also other dictionaries which in their own ways, etymologies and contexts render other definitions to cover wider considerations. Could it be possible that the Ox.L.D. you quoted might have been looking at the narrow British historical definition of that word?

However, some anti-tithers have used other dictionaries and resources in writing about the subject. For instance, Russell Kelly quoted several of them:

The Encyclopedia Americana defines the general tithe as “the tenth part
of produce or other income, paid voluntarily or under the compulsion of law
for the benefit of religious institutions, the support of priests and pastors,
and the relief of those in need.”
~~ Encyclopedia Americana, 1996 ed., s.v. “tithe.”


“In the ancient Near East lie the origins of a sacred offering or payment
of a tenth part of stated goods or property to the deity. Often given to
the king or to the royal temple, the ‘tenth’ was usually approximate, not exact.
The practice is known from Mesopotamia, Syria-Palestine, Greece and as far to
the west as the Phoenician city of Carthage.”
~~ Encyclopedia of Religion, Mircea Eliad, editor, 1987, s.v. “tithe.”


“A 10th part of one’s income consecrated to God. The separation of
a certain proportion of the products of one’s industry or of the spoils
of war as tribute to their gods was practiced by various nations of antiquity.
The Lydians offered a tithe of their booty (Herod. I, 89). The Phoenicians and
Carthaginians sent a tithe annually to the Tyrian Hercules. These tithes might
be regular or occasional, voluntary or prescribed by law.”
~~ John D. Davis, ed., Westminster Dictionary of the Bible
(Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1964), s.v. “tithe.

Although Russell could not fault them, he nonetheless could not accept them for some mere incoherent excuses. But the point is simple: just as you tried to make a case for the Ox.L.D. which you quoted, could you also 'prove' that these other dictionaries and resources are no longer reliable?

jagunlabi:
I can understand your reaction,afterall your own idea of god is that butcher in the OT.He is the one who is your lord and it is with him that you wish to spend eternity with.Well,i wish you happy eternal life,as long as you don't get on his wrong side(which could be relatively easy according to the bible,the word of god).Let me just tell you that the god you believe in is a form,might be physical or mental(take your pick),but that is all he is,a form,and that makes him an egoic god, a false god.
As for atheists,they will get there in time.
It is just that the christian doctrine has totally perverted and polluted the image of God.

I can also understand your reaction, and indeed it didn't come as a surprise. The one thing I requested was predictably left unanswered, which again leaves the atheist no nearer any susbtance in your assertions. Would you care to attempt it? Perhaps not; which was why I observed that indeed no atheist would have asked that simple question.

Pastor AIO:
So is money a seed. Yes, but not in the sense that any biblical passage I know mentions seed. Money is a seed because if you invest it wisely in the stock market then it will sprout and bloom and grow. But as with all seeds the birds will eat some, some will fall on rocky soil, some will be strangled by weeds etc.

Lol, it's clear that the 'seed' and 'sowing' in 2 Cor. 9:10 is in context referring to Christian financial giving.

Pastor AIO:
May he that multiplies all seeds of every variety plant, animal or metaphorical please multiply the fruit of the righteousness seeds that we have sown o! Amen.

Abi o.

jagunlabi:
-Godless?No one can ever be Godless,because God exist within all of us,whether we are aware of it or not

.

Lol, jagunlabi. . . I wonder that no atheist has picked up on that and asked a simple question: 'how do you know that "God exist within all of us,whether we are aware of it or not"??' Do they just take it for granted that your statement also involves them among that "all of us"?

But even more interesting is how you tried to buttress your assertion:

jagunlabi:
Haven't you ever heard the saying that God is closer to us than our skin?If something is closer to you than your skin,then it is inside of you,no?

Hahaha. . . comedy!   Okay, I hear. Now over to you atheists: listen to 'pastor jagunlabi' - whether you know it or not, his way of 'proving' God within you is the above.

ajokeakin:
pilgrim,i now believed something is wrong with you,you are turning the bible upside down abi?re you trying to force tithing on people or what?may be that is were you depend on for feeding.

Please show me where I've ever tried to "force" anyone to tithe. If my reply above are buttressed by Scripture on the context of 'seed', why don't you share why or how the verses I quoted are not saying what I posted? Why do you have this habit of talking like a miserable pauper?

marvis joy:
pilgim,there must be problem somewhere,cos i have asked 3 pastors on this tithe issue,2 of them are against it and also said we were not commanded to give,a nd pastors doing it are thieves.so everyone is entitle to his own opinion,you can o as you wish ,but Jehovah God knows who is doing the right thing

I agree with your first and last statements: there must be problems with people having misunderstandings about this; and God knows who is doing right, whatever is the case of some who want to brand others all sorts of names. This is why even the two pastors you asked may only be expressing their own opinions, not because they are better than those they condemn as "thieves". Those who often are hasty to condemn others have their own ways of milking money from their congregations - they just don't call it 'tithes', but they do the same thing: collect your money, abi?

It's unwise for pastors to throw words carelessly around. They can share their understanding in a godly manner, and it is not by castigating ministers that they can prove themselves righteous.

marvis joy:
over to you pilgrim,should we stop paying tithe?

From page 1 -

       here

       here

       here.

      here, and several other replies already.

God bless you.