I can see why most people would leave the subject alone altogether because the argument is not going anywhere but I don't have any problem with knowledge transfer of any kind.
Giving 10% to secure the grace of Christ is "unchristian" in my book and I am entitled to my opinion, if tithe was that important, Jesus would have made it very clear for us to do it like he did with other matters of faith, worship and compassion, etc but he didn't and I can't be fooled by these tithe preaching, high flying pastors ever.
I am not touching RCCG at all as enough has been said about them already, their associations here in NA doesn't even encourage me to get closer to them. No one is dumping on the Nigerian pastors here ( I know I am not), there are enough stuff on you tube on the prosperity pastors here in NA to see that they're under fire as well for all this prosperity nonsense they've been preaching.
I went to "Gbagada" in the early 80s and don't have anything against them either except the tithe preaching, everyone who know Nigeria ought to have seen the major contributions of the Anglicans, Catholics, Baptists, etc either in the schools or health clinics but I may have been away for a while and nothing from the charismatic/pentecostal ones other than the colleges that their average member can't afford to send their kid.
I have said in another thread that "you don't tell someone with oil what to fry" they can fry sand if they so chose which is why I won't condemn anyone for paying 10% but don't tell me I am wrong because I chose a different approach.
Those tithe advocates forget the fact that this was some kind of tax in those days since it was also used for administration expenses.
I have heard their argument "if 90% doesn't do it for you, the extra 10% can't make the difference", maybe only in Nigeria do folks take home 100%, so if uncle Sam already got his 30+%, we will be talking of less than 70%,
We are in the royal priesthood my friends and if you chose to have a pastor that can't work, then you ought to support him but he can't be living larger than the other members either, offerings should suffice.
I saw a video recently where one of "them" was even claiming that Jesus had to be rich himself or else he wouldn't have needed a treasurer", this is the kind of distortions of the scripture we are talking about, if the pastor is the only one benefiting from the prosperity then something really is wrong.
It was 10% of gross income, now the Anglican guy said their own was 5% of disposable income, hhhhmmm, no consistency here is there?
I am not one of those Christians who are swayed by "financial blessings" preaching because that is not my reason for becoming a Christian in the first place, I want to make Heaven not get rich quick or die trying, (hard to believe some preachers are like rappers now)
Jesus promised to take care of our needs not our wants so we need to be clear about what we preach, I don't blame those who benefit from this misinformation but feel sorry for them because they have to keep this scam going so as to continue the "lifestyle". Thank God I don't need to scam to maintain and to him be the glory and not some "solid personal achievement"

pilgrim.1:

I'm sorry, chukwudi44 - you don't have to shout! Trying to free others requires you to be clear and not just throw words carelessly around. If you're not against tithing per se, why have you NOT been encouraging others to actually tithe? Using language carelessly to slur people is what defeats the anti-tithers who claim that they are fighting "criminals". Your line of argument is not quite helpful afterall.

Please young lady,am not against anyone who purposes in his/her heart to give any amount to the church be it 1,2,, 100% of their incomes.

What I preach against is heretical teachings by criminals who call themselves Men of God saying it is compulsory to pay 10% of their incomes to the church

Pastor AIO:

It has been your constant claim that your experience of the preaching of tithes is different from what most of the 'anti-tithers' are talking about. While I find it difficult to imagine that you haven't really encountered the preaching of tithes as a means of extortion (endemic enough to warrant a crusade against) I guess it is not impossible.

Perhaps if I acquainted you with a few of these teachings you could give me your opinion as to whether that chuch is preaching the gospel or merely practicing extortion.

Please check this out:
This is taken from here: http://www.rccgvictoryarea.org/keys.htm

The RcCG is the biggest church in nigeria and I believe they say it is the fastest growing church in the world. I don't think it is far fetched to claim that their practices are representative of how christianity is practiced in nigeria.

My question to you, Pilgrim1, is: Would you say that these teachings of RCCG are rooted in Christian doctrine or are they merely manipulating doctrine to extort funds from the gullible?

I'd like your opinion on this statement too:

I can assure that the RCCG is not up to 25% of the RCC in nigeria .Do you know that in states like Anambra,Enugu and Imo the RCC controls almost 70% of their poulation and almost 50% of all Igbos.
the RCCG has more branches in lagos  than the RCC but not more members.

The fastest growing pentecostal church in he world is the assemblies of God church which has almost 60 million members

chukwudi44:

Please young lady,am not against anyone who purposes in his/her heart to give any amount to the church be it 1,2,, 100% of their incomes.

Young man, your excuses will not wash here. Anyone who has been arguing to condemn tithes on recycled fallacies should first get their acts together before making otiose noise. If you are not against anyone preaching or giving any tithes, why have you been finding it difficult to encourage people to give tithe? It is simply not enough to condemn something - and please throw this exculpation behind you: it's now a bore to keep recycling your life-long adventures of snooping your own perceived "criminals".

chukwudi44:
What I preach against is heretical teachings by criminals who call themselves Men of God saying it is compulsory to pay 10% of their incomes to the churchI can assure that the RCCG is not up to 25% of the RCC in nigeria .Do you know that in states like Anambra,Enugu and Imo the RCC controls almost 70% of their poulation and almost 50% of all Igbos.
the RCCG has more branches in lagos than the RCC but not more members.

See what I mean? It has now become a matter of who has the largest church in Nnewi, Aba, and Owerri. . . the tithe you're supposed to focus on has been quickly forgotten! Ol' boy, Church matter no be political control of geopolitical zones! Some of the "criminals" wey you wan condemn dey inside your own church - I just no wan go there, that is why I refrained from posting links for all to see what is happening. Peace, brother. . . this tithe issue should not be dragged on to the kind of shakara wey you dey hala for here, you hear?

chukwudi44:
The fastest growing pentecostal church in he world is the assemblies of God church which has almost 60 million members

We hear - is the Assemblies of God also the "criminals" you want to spend your 'last breath' fighting?

The tithe advocates will give you every excuse in the book as to why you should join their ranks. When it comes to matters of God, it is our duty to make sure what we are being told/advised on is correct and not some scam like this. Any other form of milking the congregation dry should be opposed as well and not just the tithe. Anyone that builds a big place to be like some other pastor and now has to tax folks 10% when they're not the government and provides no social service has to be exposed because big buildings don't glorify God as they claim but the man who put his own name on it one way or the other. We have to be like Jesus Christ (meaning of Christian) and if he didn't advocate building big "tabernacles" to honor him, why do we need to do it? Jesus' life was simple enough for every Christian to emulate and his blood is sufficient payment for our sins, Jesus didn't come to abolish the law, he came to fulfill it.
To be blessed don't mean you have to be "rich", money doesn't guarantee happiness and only a really poor person will believe it does. One has to be vigilant against these evil forces distorting the scripture for financial gain, Jesus withdrew from the "multitudes" to pray meaning prayer should be personal between the person and God and not some rehearsed mumble jumble that one sometimes hear, I know God understands all languages but don't you need to understand what you're asking of God? Don't go to work and believe that somehow your bank account will over flow, that's a recipe for homelessness and other stuff if you ask me. I am a believer who understands the scriptures and really need fellowship with fellow believers rather than going to a "church" to find salvation.

ogajim:

I can see why most people would leave the subject alone altogether because the argument is not going anywhere but I don't have any problem with knowledge transfer of any kind.
Giving 10% to secure the grace of Christ is "unchristian" in my book and I am entitled to my opinion, if tithe was that important, Jesus would have made it very clear for us to do it like he did with other matters of faith, worship and compassion, etc but he didn't and I can't be fooled by these tithe preaching, high flying pastors ever.

I don't know how many people have been preaching that "giving 10%" is a matter of securing the grace of Christ. Is that what your pastor has been teaching you? If not, why are you stuck on that one mantra and constantly using it to slur other people? Of course, you're entitled to your opinion - but when you opinion is becoming a boring broken record, you unwittingly cheapen your arguments.

ogajim:

I am not touching RCCG at all as enough has been said about them already, their associations here in NA doesn't even encourage me to get closer to them. No one is dumping on the Nigerian pastors here ( I know I am not), there are enough stuff on you tube on the prosperity pastors here in NA to see that they're under fire as well for all this prosperity nonsense they've been preaching.

Hmm, self-righteousness no be virtue o. . those who display this holier-than-thou attitude should constantly remember Isaiah 65:5.

ogajim:
I went to "Gbagada" in the early 80s and don't have anything against them either except the tithe preaching, everyone who know Nigeria ought to have seen the major contributions of the Anglicans, Catholics, Baptists, etc either in the schools or health clinics but I may have been away for a while and nothing from the charismatic/pentecostal ones other than the colleges that their average member can't afford to send their kid.

Oga, I know that many Anglican, Catholic and Baptist churches also preach tithes in Nigeria. I've cited a few examples of the first two, and I could give you a list of so many churches in Nigeria that also preach tithes. Do you also have nothing against these churches "except the tithe preaching"? Good that you're aware most of these tithe-preaching churches have made major contributions to positively impact some quarters in Nigeria and beyond - but they also preach tithes, no?

ogajim:

I have said in another thread that "you don't tell someone with oil what to fry" they can fry sand if they so chose which is why I won't condemn anyone for paying 10% but don't tell me I am wrong because I chose a different approach.

Pay wetin dey your mind - even if na zero. You no dey condemn 10% tithers, but your posts are littered with that very same thing.

ogajim:

Those tithe advocates forget the fact that this was some kind of tax in those days since it was also used for administration expenses.

They don't forget anything - that's why I selected well articulated examples in my earlier reply to show the point as in the Anglican Church. Abi you wan start to condemn the Anglican Church as well? Please let me know - I have here a list of many, many well-established denominations which preach tithes in Niegria and beyond, and who have made such impact that you're happy to celebrate.

ogajim:

I have heard their argument "if 90% doesn't do it for you, the extra 10% can't make the difference", maybe only in Nigeria do folks take home 100%, so if uncle Sam already got his 30+%, we will be talking of less than 70%,

Hahaha. . . you too funny!    has anybody asked you for either 90%, 70% or 30%? Wetin dey bite you for body that nothing ever seems agreeable with yopur spirit about what other people have determined to give? Did they deduct it from your life-insurance or family inheritance? Why the thing dey pain you so badly??  Even the example I posted earlier made a simple case of "five percent" - that one sef go raise dust o!! Oga mi, wetin dey worry you for this matter? I even get several examples of churches that preach a tithe of far less than "five percent" - I'm sure those again will cause civil war for your corner!

ogajim:

We are in the royal priesthood my friends and if you chose to have a pastor that can't work, then you ought to support him but he can't be living larger than the other members either, offerings should suffice.

You go do your own - abi you no get pastor? If your pastor determine to live from the offerings of your church and has plenty more than you, wetin you go do. . fight am, or poison am?  How large is your church, may I ask? Do you even realise that you're making your own law to determine for others what you can't do?

ogajim:

I saw a video recently where one of "them" was even claiming that Jesus had to be rich himself or else he wouldn't have needed a treasurer", this is the kind of distortions of the scripture we are talking about, if the pastor is the only one benefiting from the prosperity then something really is wrong.
It was 10% of gross income, now the Anglican guy said their own was 5% of disposable income, hhhhmmm, no consistency here is there?

The Anglican is not preaching a "do-or-be-damned" kind of message about tithes; and yes, some of them exhort a "five percent" recommendation, as it is clear that even anti-tithers know and argue that the term tithe in the Bible is not only and always "10%". So, what is your problem with anyone asking for less than "10%"? I'm sure if another church even exhorts only 2%, you go start wahala again!  This is why the problem with anti-tithers is far more than any percentage anyone preaches - it seems more like you guys are allergic to any amount people choose for themselves! haba!! Nothing will ever satisfy you in this matter.

ogajim:

I am not one of those Christians who are swayed by "financial blessings" preaching because that is not my reason for becoming a Christian in the first place, I want to make Heaven not get rich quick or die trying, (hard to believe some preachers are like rappers now)

There's an easy way to be a Christian the way you have prescribed for yourself: give everything you have away, then become a beggar in any street of your choice from now till Jesus comes. Too hard? Bros, that's the easiest thing going for you!  As you lose everything and own nothing, you will then begin to learn to read the whole Word of God before attacking 'financial blessings'.

ogajim:

Jesus promised to take care of our needs not our wants so we need to be clear about what we preach, I don't blame those who benefit from this misinformation but feel sorry for them because they have to keep this scam going so as to continue the "lifestyle". Thank God I don't need to scam to maintain and to him be the glory and not some "solid personal achievement"

Lol, . . . 'scam' this, 'scam' that, 'scam' the other. . . everything with you guys na "scam". No wonder you're ever full of complaining! Enjoy - na your calling.  

ogajim:

The tithe advocates will give you every excuse in the book as to why you should join their ranks. When it comes to matters of God, it is our duty to make sure what we are being told/advised on is correct and not some scam like this. Any other form of milking the congregation dry should be opposed as well and not just the tithe. Anyone that builds a big place to be like some other pastor and now has to tax folks 10% when they're not the government and provides no social service has to be exposed because big buildings don't glorify God as they claim but the man who put his own name on it one way or the other. We have to be like Jesus Christ (meaning of Christian) and if he didn't advocate building big "tabernacles" to honor him, why do we need to do it? Jesus' life was simple enough for every Christian to emulate and his blood is sufficient payment for our sins, Jesus didn't come to abolish the law, he came to fulfill it.

Find something else to complain and whinge about. What did I just say a moment ago? Here:
[list]

pilgrim.1:

Lol, . . . 'scam' this, 'scam' that, 'scam' the other. . . everything with you guys na "scam". No wonder you're ever full of complaining! Enjoy - na your calling.

[/list]

ogajim:

To be blessed don't mean you have to be "rich", money doesn't guarantee happiness and only a really poor person will believe it does. One has to be vigilant against these evil forces distorting the scripture for financial gain, Jesus withdrew from the "multitudes" to pray meaning prayer should be personal between the person and God and not some rehearsed mumble jumble that one sometimes hear, I know God understands all languages but don't you need to understand what you're asking of God? Don't go to work and believe that somehow your bank account will over flow, that's a recipe for homelessness and other stuff if you ask me. I am a believer who understands the scriptures and really need fellowship with fellow believers rather than going to a "church" to find salvation.

The understanding you claim has yet to be seen in your posts. If your understanding is mainly about reharshing complaints over and over again, we can bear with your scholarship. People who have been called and have committed themselves joyfully to tithe to their churches do not need to bend over backwards to your "understanding". Shalom.

I am a strong believer in loose coupling and could care less what others are doing with what belongs to them. I went to an Anglican elementary school and a Catholic high school and don't see a need to shoot indiscriminately unless I feel a need to. I could have chosen not to contribute to this like I did with the "pastors and body guards" thread which is hilarious on it's own but this is something I have seen too much of in all flavors.
We are all equal before God and when a church get's hierarchical, it's time to move because it is not too far from a cult and in terms of financial transparency, PG.1, I am not in the business of trading insults with anyone but I will tell you that I understand a lot more than you think when it comes to the so called "established churches" because a lot of them actually left the business of winning souls for Christ a long time ago and is way too deep for me to engage in an "unsecured environment" but you can start by looking at their buildings and see if you understand everything thing in it or if it is of God's. Bob Marley was right when he said "there is a natural mystic blowing through the air; If you listen carefully now you will hear, "
Things are not the way they seem so you stand to learn more by humbling your self unless you are part of the "powers" I am not better than anyone because of anything and I see his blessings upon me every second of the day and I also do believe that folks that don't want to learn have a right to remain stupid.
May his grace continue to follow all his true Children.

ogajim:

I am a strong believer in loose coupling and could care less what others are doing with what belongs to them. I went to an Anglican elementary school and a Catholic high school and don't see a need to shoot indiscriminately unless I feel a need to. I could have chosen not to contribute to this like I did with the "pastors and body guards" thread which is hilarious on it's own but this is something I have seen too much of in all flavors.
We are all equal before God and when a church get's hierarchical, it's time to move because it is not too far from a cult and in terms of financial transparency, PG.1, I am not in the business of trading insults with anyone but I will tell you that I understand a lot more than you think when it comes to the so called "established churches" because a lot of them actually left the business of winning souls for Christ a long time ago and is way too deep for me to engage in an "unsecured environment" but you can start by looking at their buildings and see if you understand everything thing in it or if it is of God's. Bob Marley was right when he said "there is a natural mystic blowing through the air; If you listen carefully now you will hear, "
Things are not the way they seem so you stand to learn more by humbling your self unless you are part of the "powers" I am not better than anyone because of anything and I see his blessings upon me every second of the day and I also do believe that folks that don't want to learn have a right to remain stupid.
May his grace continue to follow all his true Children.

@ogajim,

My apologies if you felt insulted - I didn't mean it that way. Indeed I was teasing you all the way through, as I didn't see any substance in what you were arguing. Many churches preach tithes - and on either side of the debate (pro-tithing and anti-tithing), people err gravely. There's no reason for us as Christians to be flailing by using tithes to attack, condemn and/or slur all tithers; nor is there a sufficient enough reason because of tithe argument to do the same against anti-tithers. Nobody has to bend backwards to your vexations because you believe if they don't listen to you, then they must be called "stupid" - afterall, you haven't shown anywhere that you have any clue what you're arguing about this subject. How many people have insinuated that uncouth word ("stupid" at you? People who choose of their own accord to tithe should be appreciated for what they do; and if you don't feel inclined to give any percentage of your resources at anytime, it's all up to you as well. I think these seething vexations against tithers should be minimised or even cease, seeing that the many false assertions used repeatedly by many anti-tithers are misplaced.

I am sorry for using the word "stupid" if that's offensive to anyone but that word is not too far from "ignorance" that I have seen in some of your stuff but then again who is counting?
People are wired to react to what they see around them and when you see too much of a bad practice among some of these "churches", it is hard not to think that if it quacks like a duck, it must be a duck. From what I see here, those Nigerian churches and their stat sheet of parishes/branches is nonsense because the only folks that worship there are Nigerians for the most part and a sprinkle of spouses and friends so their claim of spreading the gospel to other countries is bogus at best ( I might be castigated for going off subject here)
If you have not walked on someone's shoes it is hard to criticize their views unless you've been there your self, the Nigerian charismatic/pentecostal churches are fast becoming like their government so it is hard to find something to celebrate there with cult personalities and other trappings we didn't see from Jesus Christ our savior.
I am not saying the American churches of the same flavor are any better, it is an endemic problem that has to be addressed, I see a lot of them as hustlers to tell you the truth, the lips of the righteous does teach us many,
I would not deride anyone for doing what they feel is right but I am entitled to my opinion which I don't need to shove down someone's throat.
I will love to see how many Nigerian churches make their financial information available to all rather than a " financial committee" loaded with yes men/women. Even if we were of the same parents, it is not automatic that we will agree on everything so this is not a make it or break it debate. I have a close friend in the UK whose former pastor went to jail after the church was investigated, after his release, he started another church (LTD) and some folks followed him to the new (company?) church so to each his own.
I speak enough languages to know that the English is a generic language so i don't need any tutoring there, stupid in that sense at least implies that the receiver has a brain.
I see PG.1 is a veteran on here with a lot of posts to your credit so I will stop right here and take a sit behind the batting cage so I don't get hit by fly balls.

@ogajim,

ogajim:

I am sorry for using the word "stupid" if that's offensive to anyone but that word is not too far from "ignorance" that I have seen in some of your stuff but then again who is counting?
People are wired to react to what they see around them and when you see too much of a bad practice among some of these "churches", it is hard not to think that if it quacks like a duck, it must be a duck. From what I see here, those Nigerian churches and their stat sheet of parishes/branches is nonsense because the only folks that worship there are Nigerians for the most part and a sprinkle of spouses and friends so their claim of spreading the gospel to other countries is bogus at best ( I might be castigated for going off subject here)

It's actually sad to observe that you really have nothing of substance to say on this subject. This is precisely what I meant in observing several times already that it seems most anti-tithers cannot hold themselves until their grey side rises to the fore. One wonders: is it really tithe that is your problem - or something else? You make a case for not condeming anyone, and yet your posts are often littered with such tirade just because you haven't been able to grasp this subject.

ogajim:

If you have not walked on someone's shoes it is hard to criticize their views unless you've been there your self, the Nigerian charismatic/pentecostal churches are fast becoming like their government so it is hard to find something to celebrate there with cult personalities and other trappings we didn't see from Jesus Christ our savior.

I've once been an anti-tither until I discovered the false assertions and attitudes of most anti-tithers in discussing the subject. You only criticize, not because you are being objective, but rather because you can't find anything better to say.

ogajim:

I am not saying the American churches of the same flavor are any better, it is an endemic problem that has to be addressed, I see a lot of them as hustlers to tell you the truth, the lips of the righteous does teach us many,

It's simple enough: stop attending any church if none is as righteous as your own righteousness.

ogajim:

I would not deride anyone for doing what they feel is right but I am entitled to my opinion which I don't need to shove down someone's throat.

Then just what is the substance in your new-found love of deriding people - just for tithe? I wish there could be more substance in your post; so far you're just being an interesting piece of drama - and you're definitely entitled to keep acting.

PG.1

I don't need to justify myself to you or any of your ilk, keep milking the "cash cow" from those who don't know any better and I will continue to do what I have always done to remain successful. One wonders though if you are one of them since you can't see beyond your nose from your high horse.
this is a topic that you haven't contributed any cogent reason for independent thinkers as to why this old law (which continues to line the pockets of those who hustle the gospel) should continue other than pick issues with those that opposes your outdated doctrine.
Good reasons must of force give room for better so if you don't have the scriptural backing other than "same old same old", it is better to shut your trap unless you can advance superior argument to back up your claims.
I am your basic amicus curiae here and have no horse in this race, I know what I do and why I do it and my conscience allows me to do that ( unlike Awo, I don't have a monopoly of conscience)
Cookie cutter solutions don't work in the secular World let alone in Christianity, if I were a veteran of message boards, I probably would've seen it coming but hey, we learn as we go and I ain't mad at you, do your thing baby girl.
God bless.

ogajim:

Good reasons must of force give room for better so if you don't have the scriptural backing other than "same old same old", it is better to shut your trap unless you can advance superior argument to back up your claims.

Thank you. I think it's unnecessary to join issues with you if you're beginning to foam in the mouth. Usually, when people tire themselves out, they often tend to behave as you do, and often times it shows they either do not read or are to challenged intellectually to demonstrate any reading skills. You are a late comer to NL, and most of your queries have been well addressed in other threads. Since arriving, you neither have presented anything intelligent nor been able to discuss without vexations. If you want a discussion (or even debate if you're able - fingers crossed), then either open a new thread and present your endless worries there, or keep feeling sorry for your drama here. The choice is yours, and you're entitled to your endless whinging.

pilgrim.1:

@Pastor AIO,

Thank you for your concerns. As I've repeatedly stated, my arguments are not borne out of narrow experiences where one uses only one case to plaster a conclusion across board. In which case, my opinions would not be inclined to make the RCCG the standard case for ALL tithe preachers around the world. Please bear in mind that I've also repeatedly demonstrated that people err on both sides of the debate; and as such, would it be quite "in order" to blast ALL anti-tithers with the same slurs as they hastily do to their tithing brethren? Have anti-tithers not said worse things than tithers several times, most of which I've identified already in several threads?

This was why I said earlier:

       'our experiences on this subject are varied - which is the more reason
        why anti-tithers cannot condemn everyone who is inclined to tithing'

I wonder if by quoting that line earlier you were of the opinion that EVERYONE who is inclined to tithing must by default be condemned by anti-tithers? I hope not; but if otherwise, why so?

I think that it is wrong to take a particular instance of anything and then apply it broadly to anyone and anything vaguely associated.  I don't think that anyone, much less everyone, who tithes is being attacked.  But rather the PREACHING OF TITHING is what has been attacked as far as I can tell.  It is of course naturally for humans to associate themselves so strongly with a doctrine whereby any attack on that doctrine becomes a personal attack on themselves.  
The subject of the thread suggests that pastors are not telling their congregation the truth about tithes and in fact are lying to them.  That is a far cry from accusing the people who actually tithe, many of whom do so under the false notions fed to them by mendacious pastors.  That has parallels to punishing a rape victim for falling victim to the crime.  

pilgrim.1:



I think they meant verse 16, not verse 15. Yet, if we going on to verse 17, we find again that the same principle in the OT is what is preached in the NT:

             Deut. 16:17 -  'Every man shall give as he is able,
             according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee'

             2 Cor. 8:12  -  'For if there be first a willing mind,
             it is accepted according to that a man hath,
             and not according to that he hath not.'

Now, my opinion: offering, tithe and 'sowing'.  I don't think the few lines quoted above could be used to draw any final conclusions to condemn the RCCG. For one, those few lines are not expatiated enough on those terms to draw a condemnation of 'extortion'; and we know that the apostles in the NT drew from the OT to exhort NT giving. The second highlighted part of the quote is a cogent statement, I believe, that is unnecessary to argue against. If one does not 'sow' (in context of giving), how does he/she reap? The NT argues that a man only reaps what he has sown; and the measure in which someone sows is the measure in which they shall reap, NO? The end of that quote exhorts to "be a good giver", and that could also be a healthy reminder that tessellates with 2 Cor. 9:7.

When I take a closer look at the passage in question what I see is God giving the people an injunction to come and eat 3 meals three times a year in his presence.  These meals are namely, the Feast of Unleaven bread, The feast of Weeks, and The feast of Booths.  

When they come to these feast they must not come empty handed no matter how small the food they bring is.  

When some then takes a verse from this passage and tells their congregation that God is saying never come to church empty handed I am inclined to believe they are twisting the scripture.  What do you think?

Alright Dr PG.1

I didn't even go to school and I will let you be the queen of NL, I see others have started to ignore you and maybe I should take a Que from the veterans as well being a newbie and it is funny how arm chair therapists can see across the virtual spectrum and come to educated conclusions.
Run your scam any how you see fit but the ones around me remain endangered because I have a very low tolerance for this kind of BS you guys sell to the innocent folks who left home in search of education/greener pastures only to be cornered by the same breed that spoiled the country for everyone in the first place.
This is just the beginning of the end for the fakes who are hellbent on enriching themselves at the expense of the gospel, I don't need to start a thread at all, when time permits, I'll do more than just that.
You really need a life if you think degrading folks here on clumsy excuses makes your day, we will keep you in our prayers so you can see the light one day. The first casualty in any war is truth which is hard to come by when it comes to the looters/scammers and the like and I do have a right not to be part of that nonsense os beat it and get a real life dude

No one attacked those who tithe, all we said was that it was not necessary since Jesus himself said there were "weightier matters" but if they see someone trying to block their hustle, they come out swinging, not mad at you at all.
Little wonder Nigeria is the way it is, omase ooo!

shalom.

@Pastor

Romantic Ideology is what they call it

They will find all the ways in the book to defend their hustle.

@Pastor AIO,

Pastor AIO:

I think that it is wrong to take a particular instance of anything and then apply it broadly to anyone and anything vaguely associated.  I don't think that anyone, much less everyone, who tithes is being attacked.

Precisely my point, as in your first line, thank you. But I don't agree with the second line, for indeed people have been attacked merely for tithing or preaching tithes. This is why I and a few others have consistently borne out that very point and constantly called such people making such mudslinging to be clear so as not to be misunderstood.

Pastor AIO:

But rather the PREACHING OF TITHING is what has been attacked as far as I can tell.

That's rather surprising. How is it that the PREACHING OF TITHE should be attacked - and that has not seen tithers and tithe-preachers being slurred as well? Afterall, 'tithing' doesn't just preach itself - people do; and as far as we can tell, pastors who preach tithes have been attacked on the mere question of their preaching tithes.

Pastor AIO:

It is of course naturally for humans to associate themselves so strongly with a doctrine whereby any attack on that doctrine becomes a personal attack on themselves.

True - especially so is the case when both the subject and the people associated with it usually come under the slurs of those averse to it.

Pastor AIO:

The subject of the thread suggests that pastors are not telling their congregation the truth about tithes and in fact are lying to them.  That is a far cry from accusing the people who actually tithe, many of whom do so under the false notions fed to them by mendacious pastors.  That has parallels to punishing a rape victim for falling victim to the crime.

There are three things I should remind you of here:

1. People err on both sides of the divide; while tithers do not spend so much time seeking to slur anti-tithers, the latter seem to resort to that same attitude when discussing the subject.

2. One who claims that "pastors" are lying is making a broad and inclusive case about pastors. How does he know that 'pastors' (how many of them) have been lying, if he is unaware of all pastors who preach and teach about tithe?

3. Accusing those who tithe - please just look at this page alone - pls scroll up and see how many times those who tithe have been slurred.

     --   It is hard not to look at those advocating 10% . . . as 'pharisees'

     --   Giving 10% to secure the grace of Christ is "unchristian" in my book

     --   tithe advocates will give you every excuse in the book

I mean, what are those saying? Is it too much to ask that the subject be discussed for what it is instead of these unnecessary insinuations? How many people have been preaching that giving 10% is a matter of "securing" the grace of Christ? What is the reason for branding tithers as 'pharisees' and then justifying such an attitude? Certainly, if we go through this thread and several others, we find even far worse scenarios; not only pastors who preach tithes are by default 'criminals', but even others who choose to tithe are brough under every slur one could think of.

Pastor AIO:

When I take a closer look at the passage in question what I see is God giving the people an injunction to come and eat 3 meals three times a year in his presence.  These meals are namely, the Feast of Unleaven bread, The feast of Weeks, and The feast of Booths.  

When they come to these feast they must not come empty handed no matter how small the food they bring is.

Yep, so it is.

Pastor AIO:

When some then takes a verse from this passage and tells their congregation that God is saying never come to church empty handed I am inclined to believe they are twisting the scripture.  What do you think?

'Twisting scripture' is a familiar refrain; but I don't think that would be the case here. There's nothing wrong in someone taking a verse to make a general principle - it all depends what they mean, but not necessarily twisting scripture. A few examples might be helpful:

1. In the NT in 2 Cor. 8:15 the apostle Paul quoted Exodus 16:18 to exhort about Christian giving. If you check the Exodus 16 verse, you find that it has nothing in context to do with ANY type of giving or offering - NOTHING at all! But Paul used that verse and quoted it directly in 2 Cor. 8:15 to speak . .  what. . Christian giving? Yes, he did. How is it then that anti-tithers do not make the same charge of 'tiwsting scripture' against Paul?

2. Again in both 1 Cor. 9:9 and 1 Tim. 5:18, the apostle Paul quoted Deuteronomy 25:4 - "Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn", and he used that in speaking about Christian giving to support Gospel ministers. Checking carefully, the Deut. 25 verse has nothing to do with financially supporting preachers or ministers - but no anti-tither has screamed the charge of 'twisting scripture' at Paul.

What's the point now? You can see examples of seemingly totally unrelated verses which Paul quoted from the OT to speak about Christian giving. In context, the OT verses have nothing to do with giving or any type of offerings or financial support; but rather than looking for legalistic reading, we understand he was more concerned with the principles which those verses provided to support what he taught.

In the same way, if someone quotes from Deut. 16:15-17 to exhort or preach about giving (whether tithes or some other offerings), I don't see how the charge of "twisting scripture" should arise - as long as the general principle is being encouraged. Otherwise, we might as well charge Paul for "twisting Scripture" for quoting totally unrelated texts from the OT to exhort NT giving.  

ogajim:

No one attacked those who tithe, all we said was that it was not necessary since Jesus himself said there were "weightier matters" but if they see someone trying to block their hustle, they come out swinging, not mad at you at all.

You don't have to shamelessly be so dubious. What did tithers do to you before you called them 'pharisees'? What did tithers do to you before calling them "stupid"? Do you really feel a need to protect your self-righteousness that you have to be so shameless and cowardly on top of it all? Your conceit is unimaginable.

Shamelessly

pilgrim.1:

You don't have to shamelessly be so dubious. What did tithers do to you before you called them 'pharisees'? What did tithers do to you before calling them "stupid"? Do you really feel a need to protect your self-righteousness that you have to be so shameless and cowardly on top of it all? Your conceit is unimaginable.

WOW
I had no intention of touching a nerve there so excuse me if you were offended by those words and like I said, I have proof and continue to see this distortion regularly and I don't see a reason why I can't stand up to these hustlers if no one else will. I don't need validation of any kind nor do I need to make money off poor folks in the name of salvation. God sees all things and will vindicate his children. No hard feelings at all.
I am a faithful servant who continues to learn and not above any one, I can't speak on what obtains in the UK, EU or even Nigeria though I have been in some of those places enough times to almost pay local taxes because I can't understand it better than someone who lives it on a daily basis. It is an insult to question what I see or have seen since you don't live it, have the same set of resources or access for that matter. Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere MLK taught us so they need to find real jobs rather than dupe innocent folks with non existent scriptures they bend to suit their whims.
I would vote for Sen. Grassley if I were from Iowa for at least trying to investigate some of the local nonsense but we can't expect same from naija since they all hang out together now can we?
Everyday for the thief but one day for the owner of the house/farm, odikwa very very risky my people!

Pastor AIO:

I think that it is wrong to take a particular instance of anything and then apply it broadly to anyone and anything vaguely associated.  I don't think that anyone, much less everyone, who tithes is being attacked.  But rather the PREACHING OF TITHING is what has been attacked as far as I can tell.  It is of course naturally for humans to associate themselves so strongly with a doctrine whereby any attack on that doctrine becomes a personal attack on themselves.  
The subject of the thread suggests that pastors are not telling their congregation the truth about tithes and in fact are lying to them.  That is a far cry from accusing the people who actually tithe, many of whom do so under the false notions fed to them by mendacious pastors.  That has parallels to punishing a rape victim for falling victim to the crime.

Exactly!!!

We (myself, Kunle and many others) have said here repeatedly that we have nothing against people who "tithe" per se. We want them to know that it is not a Christian requirement; we do not want them to be enslaved; we do not want them to be deceived or blackmailed into "tithing". We want them to have the facts and the correct understanding of the bible on the subject. If after all these they then choose to "tithe" knowing the truth, then that is "perfectly okay" (to borrow words for which Kunle has been unjustly villified!).

We make no apologies for calling some so-called "pastors" or others who, deliberately with misleading intent, preach a false doctrine of compulsory "tithing" frauds and criminals.

Personally, I am happy to be tolerant and understanding of a person or "pastor" who teaches the false doctrine of compulsory "tithing" simply because s/he him/herself is ignorant or misconceived. We will however challenge them vigorously too.

ogajim:

I can't speak on what obtains in the UK, EU . . .

The US in particular is where you find probably the highest number of and certainly the most high profile (deliberate) teachers of the false doctrine of "tithing". Unfortunately, the disease has spread to the UK and parts of the EU particularly in the Pentecostal/Charismatic arm of Christianity  --- with the sad growth of the so-called "prosperity gospel".

@ogajim,

What really is your problem? If you're here to be made sport of, it'll be good being entertained by your desperations - although you're not the first to lose sense in your self-defeatist attitude.

ogajim:

Shamelessly
WOW
I had no intention of touching a nerve there so excuse me if you were offended by those words and like I said, I have proof and continue to see this distortion regularly and I don't see a reason why I can't stand up to these hustlers if no one else will.

Nope, I wasn't offended, so don't start off with such a cheap self-applause. It's ridicculous to try to deny the very thing you have done - is that how people take things around you with such vacuous minds? The queries I left you are pointers for the point I made about your shameless conceit, which predictably you didn't address. Instead you crawled back to slurp up the same harrumph you've spilt.

ogajim:

I don't need validation of any kind nor do I need to make money off poor folks in the name of salvation.

I don't see how that says anything intelligent about you. I've repeatedly made clear that 'giving' is not a salvific issue - others have read it, no one has fainted about it, and you're the only one who's been singing solo about money and 10% to buy and secure the grace of Christ. Then you keep foaming in the mouth when it's obvious your assertions are leaking.

ogajim:

God sees all things and will vindicate his children. No hard feelings at all.

I don't have any hard feelings; but the the one thing you ought to do is hold your self-righteousness to yourself. No one asks for your ID card for any validation as to why you have to keep making self-defeating interpolations about what nobody is arguing here.

ogajim:

I am a faithful servant who continues to learn and not above any one, I can't speak on what obtains in the UK, EU or even Nigeria though I have been in some of those places enough times to almost pay local taxes because I can't understand it better than someone who lives it on a daily basis. It is an insult to question what I see or have seen since you don't live it, have the same set of resources or access for that matter. Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere MLK taught us so they need to find real jobs rather than dupe innocent folks with non existent scriptures they bend to suit their whims.

Oh bother! yap-yap-yap. Do you really have a more interesting song? This one is a revised and boring edition of your lost soundtrack.

ogajim:

I would vote for Sen. Grassley if I were from Iowa for at least trying to investigate some of the local nonsense but we can't expect same from naija since they all hang out together now can we?
Everyday for the thief but one day for the owner of the house/farm, odikwa very very risky my people!

Hahaha!! Em, excuse me . . . but how does Iowa and Sen. Grassley come into the discussion?  Like I said, no hard feelings; but poor Grassley most probably would be bemussed to be the diving board for a discussion he has no clue about! M-e-n, this is classic. Wetin really dey bite you for body wey you dey mention "the thief"? Please tell us: did something hit you so with a hard-to-recover tragic loss that all these unrelated drool just seems to occupy you all day? My condolences in advance, sha.

Sen. Grassley was the only one with enough balls to challenge the hustlers of the gospel here and the subpoenas will be flying soon in case you have been too busy looking for tithe preserving scriptures to notice. Look it up dude!
It is unchristian to learn something and keep it to your self, this hustle must be stopped. Folks at the very least need to know that is is not required regardless of what those fake "men of God" preaches to them.
Enigma, you are correct it is rampant here even before PTL came to light and all the stuff that followed, the troubling thing is that Nigerian "pastors" have taken that and we all know what happens when naija folks get involved, they take it to a never before seen level which is what we are dealing with today.
I kid you not that I heard this a couple of weeks ago in a naija church " A bus was stopped by armed robbers who then proceeded to separate the passengers based on those that pay tithe and those that don't and their leader told the folks that said they didn't pay tithe they were going to get robbed because they have been robbing God all along", kids might fall for that kind of nonsense, the only way I believe that crap is if you confirm to me that the leader of the bandits was a "pastor" who is doing his second job.

I don't blame these hustlers at all, I blame the folks that fall for the cheap hustle.

pilgrim.1:

@ogajim,

What really is your problem? If you're here to be made sport of, it'll be good being entertained by your desperations - although you're not the first to lose sense in your self-defeatist attitude.

Nope, I wasn't offended, so don't start off with such a cheap self-applause. It's ridicculous to try to deny the very thing you have done - is that how people take things around you with such vacuous minds? The queries I left you are pointers for the point I made about your shameless conceit, which predictably you didn't address. Instead you crawled back to slurp up the same harrumph you've spilt.

I don't see how that says anything intelligent about you. I've repeatedly made clear that 'giving' is not a salvific issue - others have read it, no one has fainted about it, and you're the only one who's been singing solo about money and 10% to buy and secure the grace of Christ. Then you keep foaming in the mouth when it's obvious your assertions are leaking.



Hahaha!! Em, excuse me . . . but how does Iowa and Sen. Grassley come into the discussion?  Like I said, no hard feelings; but poor Grassley most probably would be bemussed to be the diving board for a discussion he has no clue about! M-e-n, this is classic. Wetin really dey bite you for body wey you dey mention "the thief"? Please tell us: did something hit you so with a hard-to-recover tragic loss that all these unrelated drool just seems to occupy you all day? My condolences in advance, sha.

Condolences
And this is from a "christian?

ogajim:

Sen. Grassley was the only one with enough balls to challenge the hustlers of the gospel here and the subpoenas will be flying soon in case you have been too busy looking for tithe preserving scriptures to notice. Look it up dude!

This is hilariously cheap!   Is Senator Charles Ernest  Grassley (R) of Iowa fighting tithe in the USA? Are you running desperately out of steam to just look for anything to say and confuse your camp? You live in the US and are so unaware of the issues you try to argue. Please show me where Sen. Grassley has been campaigning against tithes or tithing in US churches. Your empty hot-air noises and conceit are getting even more shameful.

ogajim:

It is unchristian to learn something and keep it to your self, this hustle must be stopped. Folks at the very least need to know that is is not required regardless of what those fake "men of God" preaches to them.

This chap is a piece of work! How many times have we argued your true colour here?

ogajim:

Enigma, you are correct it is rampant here even before PTL came to light and all the stuff that followed, the troubling thing is that Nigerian "pastors" have taken that and we all know what happens when naija folks get involved, they take it to a never before seen level which is what we are dealing with today.

Yawn. . 

ogajim:

I kid you not that I heard this a couple of weeks ago in a naija church " A bus was stopped by armed robbers who then proceeded to separate the passengers based on those that pay tithe and those that don't and their leader told the folks that said they didn't pay tithe they were going to get robbed because they have been robbing God all along", kids might fall for that kind of nonsense, the only way I believe that crap is if you confirm to me that the leader of the bandits was a "pastor" who is doing his second job.

Even more yawn.   We've heard worse stories by anti-tithers. Got another boring tale?

ogajim:

I don't blame these hustlers at all, I blame the folks that fall for the cheap hustle.

Please tell us: is Sen. Grassley fighting tithes and tithing in US churches?

ogajim:
Condolences
And this is from a "christian?

Want more condolences for your anti-tithing loss? 

And I get disappointed everytime I read from this Thread.

pilgrim.1 , much as I respect ur methods of debating, I really feel that u are pushing this issue down a deep end.

Some unnecessary stuff just keep coming up when u reply people.

In as much as u've stated ur points over and over again, there is no way everyone can agree with you.

You often tell Kunle that he keeps repeating the same argument over and over again - It also seems u too are doing the same.

You often say anti tithers genralise a lot and this would confuse others. I believe people are not daft or stupid enough to generalise when someone says "pastors are thieves".
Because we all know that the statement that "Nigerians are scammers" does not include all Nigerians.
People know where to draw the limits in such statements.

You've made ur point, others have made theirs, so why don't we leave it at that , rather than come here all the time to show power tussles in knowledge about varying issues.

Let's leave this tithe issue with the glaring fact that a lot of tithe payers(that does not mean all) pay their tithes without the complete facts about tithes and also the glaring fact that some pastors use this ignorance of folks to deceive and manipulate them.

We all have a responsibility to point out faults wherever they take place but when that begins to turn into something else as it is here, we should review our motives and tactics.

ttalks:

And I get disappointed everytime I read from this Thread.

pilgrim.1 , much as I respect ur methods of debating, I really feel that u are pushing this issue down a deep end.

Some unnecessary stuff just keep coming up when u reply people.

In as much as u've stated ur points over and over again, there is no way everyone can agree with you.

You often tell Kunle that he keeps repeating the same argument over and over again - It also seems u too are doing the same.

You often say anti tithers genralise a lot and this would confuse others. I believe people are not daft or stupid enough to generalise when someone says "pastors are thieves".
Because we all know that the statement that "Nigerians are scammers" does not include all Nigerians.
People know where to draw the limits in such statements.

You've made ur point, others have made theirs, so why don't we leave it at that , rather than come here all the time to show power tussles in knowledge about varying issues.

Let's leave this tithe issue with the glaring fact that a lot of tithe payers(that does not mean all) pay their tithes without the complete facts about tithes and also the glaring fact that some pastors use this ignorance of folks to deceive and manipulate them.

We all have a responsibility to point out faults wherever they take place but when that begins to turn into something else as it is here, we should review our motives and tactics.

@ttalks,

Thank you for your counsel, and I think you only managed to highlight the very bane of the several anti-tithers who often stretch things out of proportion. Why do they keep repeating the same mantra over and over again - and none of you would direct such counsels to them in like manner? It seems that only when we face up to them, that's when someone tries to cough about "methods of debating". This is why I often say that when we take the usual oft-repeated arguments of anti-tithers to their logical ends, they tend to abandon their own cherished mantra and begin to whine and complain. This is not a matter of 'tussles in knowledge' as you infer - but what is supposed to be meant by all the silly antics that are being desperately used by anti-tithers to blur, confuse, obfuscate issues as if anyone is to be considered 'daft', 'stupid', or a 'pharisee' for not agreeing with them? Is it too much for these fellows to also review their "motives and antics" and then take your advice to "leave this tithe issue"?

True, we all have a responsibility to point out faults - but not by resorting to deliberate falsehood and pretending no one notices. If people want to dig about tithe, let them do so. Using that one subject to stretch things out of proportion and justify an anti-tithing conceit is irresponsible - and that must also be pointed out.

I mentioned anything about Sen. Grassley fighting tithes?
When something is missing from some folks' life, they've got to find a way to compensate for the obvious void. I pity the fool that will not research things for themselves rather than join the chorus in this ignoble choir, I would rather not drink this haterade as I've got better things to do. have a nice life and I pray you find happiness while at it NL queen.

ogajim:

I mentioned anything about Sen. Grassley fighting tithes?

Which was why I initially asked:

[list]

pilgrim.1:

Em, excuse me . . . but how does Iowa and Sen. Grassley come into the discussion?

[/list]

ogajim:

When something is missing from some folks' life, they've got to find a way to compensate for the obvious void. I pity the fool that will not research things for themselves rather than join the chorus in this ignoble choir,

Absolutely precise, well done! You certainly might have had things missing somewhere and tried to compensate for the lack by trying to deflect this discussion with Sen. Grassley - which was why I asked how he's got to do with tithing. You should have done a bit of research yourself before interjecting Sen. Grassley as a compensation into your mass choir, no?

ogajim:

I would rather not drink this haterade as I've got better things to do. have a nice life and I pray you find happiness while at it NL queen.

I wonder why it took you this long to find your roots. Now you've breathed easy, do enjoy your adventures. Tara.

pilgrim.1:

Which was why I initially asked:

[list][/list]

Absolutely precise, well done! You certainly might have had things missing somewhere and tried to compensate for the lack by trying to deflect this discussion with Sen. Grassley - which was why I asked how he's got to do with tithing. You should have done a bit of research yourself before interjecting Sen. Grassley as a compensation into your mass choir, no?

I wonder why it took you this long to find your roots. Now you've breathed easy, do enjoy your adventures. Tara.

you dont do hostages my sister. i wont like to hold the stingy brigade a hostage myself. God bless.

@ogajim
Welcome on board, i see you have been under attack for expressing your views on this thread and your adversary is none other than our own dear pligrim.1, i must warn you though pilgrim.1 for what ever reason assumes she is the only intelligent person on nairaland and she has a very arrogant way of expressing her ignorance or delusions especially on this issue of tithes. That apart there is obviously an interst she is defending as far is this issue is concerned hence her penchance to distort scripture and confuse issues when she is trying to deceive others about tithes.

@PAstor AIO
Your wisdom is truly inspirational.

@Pilgrim.1
I see you keep asking anti -tithers why they don't encourage people to tithe since they don't have anything against tithing per se, the question should be why should i tithe or encourage anybody to tithe in the first place and what is the christian basis for it?

ttalks:


Let's leave this tithe issue with the glaring fact that a lot of tithe payers(that does not mean all) pay their tithes without the complete facts about tithes and also the glaring fact that some pastors use this ignorance of folks to deceive and manipulate them.

Spot on this is the message which some of us have been trying to put across and also expect all others who claim to be christians to to support. Cos deceit is totally unchristian[whether it is being done by a pastor or not] it really beats me how someone who claims to be a true believer would put up such a spirited fight to defend a very glaring and wide spread deceit in christianity and would even go to the extent of further distorting scriptures to butress her delusions.

PG1 or is it PG13,
Get a life dude and a job so you can stop this hustle, there still is redemption and life after scamming innocent folks for a while, the only cure for jargon is honesty.
Nothing so quickly kills a person as the publicity they give themselves. An old women is always uncomfortable when dry bones are mentioned in a proverb we read from Chinua Achebe's things fall apart, same thing that will happen to your hustle. Here is a link to one of the doyens of your chosen field, enjoy

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=3464521n

omase ooooooo!

Thank you Kunle, I kinda sensed that, thank you my brother.
I will leave her(?) alone because of an old saying back home " don't argue with a fool because passers by will not notice the difference" God bless you brother man.