₦airaland Forum

omoruyilag:
were is pilgrim?you can as well say its scriptural for all those tout in the garages pretending to be pastors to be collecting money from passengers.

Have I said so? Why don't go over and show in the other thread the accusations you made?

omoruyilag:
gbam

omoruyi, please answer if you can:

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=215255.msg3982304#msg3982304 date=1244215533]@omoruyilag,

Third, please be honest enough to show where I have tried to support a "scam". If you cannot show that, you're of little consequence and another noise maker. Tara.[/quote]

KunleOshob:
It's called common sense. Abraham grew up in mesopotamia were it was their custom to tithe. Common sense dictates that he must have learnt about tithing from his pagan folks in mesopotamia.

Where is your "confirmation" in those references that tithing ORIGINATED from those places?

KunleOshob:
see pilgrim.1 new comers to this thread are already seeing the emptiness in your posts despite the tonnes of mumbo jumbo you post in trying to justify the scam.

Please, those so-called "new comers" should be honest enough to show where I supported their accusations. Failing to do so, they are of no consequence.

ogajim:
Kunle and Omoruyi, una do well oooooo


I like the woman fighting with everyone analogy a lot, thank God I am not the only one who feels this way about their discredited scam. These are the same folks that hobnob with Nigeria's political establishment, there is not a Daniel, Elijah, etc among them. Pilgrim seems to be on NL to protect the "family business"

Again, thank you. Have you finished the back-patting?

KunleOshob:
Obviously you don't have anything to say cause the evidence[which you graciosuly posted] is just too glaring.

Where does the evidence reference show the "confirm" that you read into it?

@omoruyilag,

omoruyilag:
when i was growing up,my dad told me that there use to be a woman in a neighbours compound that has fought with eventually everybody in the compound,i was now blaming the other women in the compound of constantly quarrel with her,but my dad scolded me and said,for one person to quarrel with the other tenants in the compound,then she nust be the bad one.Pilgrim you are the only one supporting this tithe scam,its obvious you must either be benefiting from it or you are a pastos wife,pilgrims cant you see the handwritting on the wall that you have since lost this battle?Tithe is not encouraged in the new testament,even in the old testament were its talked on,people were to eat their tithe with their family and also to the poor,so what are you trying to prove,or have you written your own version of the bible?

Thank you for assuming too much by jumping into a thread and starting out typically sounding like a loser. I have not quarreled with you nor with everybody in Nairaland - what is the substance in making that charge?

Second, I'm not any of the things you had alleged. When I discuss this subject, I keep to the topic itself, not start out attacking anybody. I went so far to appeal so many times that we can discuss without slurs, again and again I made that point clear. If you can't see this, no wahala - but I'm not anyone of the 'pastors's wife' you want to force into my life.

Third, please be honest enough to show where I have tried to support a "scam". If you cannot show that, you're of little consequence and another noise maker. Tara.

KunleOshob:
Where the mesopotamians[who taught abaham tithing] not pagans? I am not inferring anything, you tithers claim that tithing was instructed by God[inferrring it originated from God] whilst the evidence we have [which you graciously posted] makes it crystal clear that tithing was a common practise in that region as of that time and the israelites probably copied it from civilizations that precede them.

Again you infer. Did the references "confirm" that Abraham was taught about tithing from Mesopatamia? How is it that is only where you find in those references? It simply said that "the ‘tenth’ was usually approximate, not exact. The practice is known from Mesopotamia, Syria-Palestine, Greece and as far to the west as the Phoenician city of Carthage". How do you connect Abraham's tithe with paganism when Melchizedek was not said to be in that connection in Scripture?

None of the references "confirms" anything about the "origin" of tithes; only that the practice was known in those places.

David,

My discussions about tithing do not place anyone under the Law.

KunleOshob:
Well those who deliberately twist the scriptures deserve to be slurred. The bible describes such people as greedy and fraudulent in jeremiah 8:8-10. If the bible can slur such people then why not? i am only emulating what i read in the bible. The only solution is for all blasphemers to repent from their evil and manipulative ways.

And that is grounds enough to continue your slurs instead of discussing?

KunleOshob:
Whilst i agree with your submission here, the machavaellian and manipulative way pilgrim.1 posts does not allow for this, her several rants, twists quotes[albeit out of context] is capable of confusing others further. she also constantly tries to discredit the truths we post on this topic hence to need to battle her to a logical conclusion else she would continue to lead others out of the grace of christ.

Why are my posts your death-trap? How is it that you cannot address a simple case until you take the pains to castigate 'pilgrim.1'?

KunleOshob:
I never said tithing originated from mesopotamia[which pre-dates the biblical tithes anyway] what i inferred is that Abraham must have learnt about tithing in mesopotamia[A pagan region] since he came from there and it was their custom to tithe.

You're inferring things into the reference. The references did not point to the "origin" of tithe - neither in Mesopatamia, nor at Abraham's time, nor any of the other places mentioned; nor did it say it was "confirming" it was 'pagan'. Reading pagan into it is assuming things.

KunleOshob:
On the contrary me and "other noise makers" have been correcting that the erronous belief that christian giving should be directed at church instituitions and ministers and teaching as christ and the apostles taught that christian giving is principally about giving to the poor and the less priviledge amongst us.

And that is grounds enough to continue your slurs instead of discussing?

KunleOshob:
Doesn't common sense dictate that since Abraham came from mesopotamia he would have been aware of the customs and traditions of his people of which tithing is an integral part off? That is apart from the fact that there was NO religious conotation or requirement for his tithing to the King of Salem since it was a normal practise/tradition back then.[ even though some charlatans try to confuse chrisitans by using the example of Abaraham's mesopotamian tithing example to justify what was never taught and required of christians in the bible]

You haven't shown that tithing ORIGINATED from MESOPATAMIA; nor do the references show that it began from that place or at the time Abraham gave tithes. Please look up the word "origin" or "originate" or that cognates.

Now, have I argued anywhere to make Abraham's tithe a matter of "requirement"? If not, what was supposed to be your interjection of that idea at this point? Besides, to say that there was NO religious conotation to his tithing is quite a weak excuse which might be laughed away. I wonder why several anti-tithers with Ph.Ds have argued a religious connotation thereto. Nevermind your continued vexations, charlatans or not, where do you get your own perfectly okay tithes for Christians? You keep pointing accusing fingers for others and yet have never been able to point out your own super-scholarship from Scripture. Why has that very thing eluded you for eons?

KunleOshob:
On the contrary you hardly ever answer questions you are asked, you would rather resort to running round in circles and confusing issues. At best you resort to twisting scriptures or quoting it out of context and i can say with fear of being controverted that i have on several occasions pointed out to you instances were you twisted scripture or quoted it out of context[ A good example is 2 corinthians9:7 which taught on giving to the needy which you twisted to meaning giving to the church] That apart i am still waiting for you to show me from the scriptures were tithing was described as a percentage of income or were chrisitans were instructed to tithes.

I don hear. Are you satisfied or what have you gained from repeating your slurs and yet addressed nothing in my post? You can accuse from now till thy kingdom come, what have you ever tried to point out that is intelligent enough to uplift you and your noise makers?

Pastor AIO:
What if someone has an allergy to nuts and dies right there in the church after the communion?

Chrisbenogor:
@pilgrim
how body?   What say you on the issue?

@Chrisgenobor,

I'm doing great, thanks. And you?

Apart from an observation I made earlier from various sources, I've been reserved thus far. The initial reply was to the topic, as regards whether someone could be born gay. My answer is that we simply do not (or, may not) know or draw any established scientific conclusive deductions. As such, many people argue back and forth between being 'hard-wired' that way, others contending that it's 'acquired' through external factors (environment, etc). It all depends on what context the answer being sought for is presented.

KunleOshob:
On the contrary all the evidence that we have been able to garner suggests that the type of tithing[Compulsary 10% of earnings to be paid to the church] being preahed by most scammers pastors today has no biblical basis. We have asked you several questions on tithing and showed you how the bible defines tithes from several scripturse yet you stick to your delusions and resort to twisting the bible further to confuse readers of all the various threads you have been ranting on all in an effort to justify this scam. But i think your efforts are being wasted cos the word is already out and some of us are dedicated to sharing this truth to other christians till the day we breath our last breath. The weight of scriptural evidence is against tithing as it is practised today and we only need to show poeple with least bit of grey matter in their heads before they see the light of truth whilst you continue to fight your loosing battle.

@KunleOshob,

I have no delusions, and I think using that antic so often cheapens your arguments. I've made clear that dialogue is more enabling, and if you can't address an issue until you draw my similar response, I may oblige you and dare any religious sanctimonious adulator to cough up later.

You asked questions - I answered them all. I also offered you and your ilk a few questions, which you either are too shy to answer or simply have no clues. Further, I pointed out my persuasions from well-articulated sources: Scripture, the arguements of anti-tithers themselves, and authentic sources of Jewish scholars. Surprising that in none of these instances have you or any one of your drummers ever been bold enough to show intelligently how my answers were flawed. All you do is repeat you slurs about others being deluded, etc. How have you grown spiritually thereby?

One observation though: if you read the points I derived from your favoured anti-tithers as delusional, it won't surprise me. I quoted them frequently to show that they have often given various percentages to the term 'tithe' in the Bible. I've shown this in so many instances - even showing how John MacArthur bellowed that your "10% is NOT correct!" I didn't put words into their mouths - that's why I left the links. Are they also delusional in their assertions? Oh, the comedy of it all! I often notice that when the noise anti-tithers have made suddenly begin to turn against them, they abandon their own arguments and resort to ad hominems: that is how they typically resolve a dialogue. Well done again.

huxley2:
The question you have got to ask yourself is this - Where did this tendecy for homosexuality come from?

Where, please?

Born Gay?

Here are some considerations from various perspectives.


[list]● Homosexuality may be issue of brain chemistry
Scientists have searched for ways to determine if sexual preference is a matter of choice or biology. Still, they have failed to develop convincing evidence one way or the other. Genes once touted as prompting homosexuality, for example, have fizzled out, and studies of hormonal influences during fetal development are inconclusive.
>snip<
"I don't think homosexuality can easily be conceptualized as just one thing -- a phenomenon that is due to one particular developmental pathway," said Heino F. L. Meyer-Bahlburg, a Columbia University professor of clinical psychology who was not involved in the research. "Like most behavior, homosexuality has multiple pathways. We're at the crude beginning to understand all of this. This (the University of Chicago study) is a promising development and a very exciting one."
Source: The Sign Post, Weber State University[/list]


[list] ● The Real Story on Gay Genes
[ ]. . . “Who cares about gay men or lesbian women?” asks geneticist Sven Bocklandt of the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA. “Sexual selection defines evolution and creation—such a major ¬player in determining society—and we have no idea how it works. This is much larger than the gay gene; it’s about all sexual ¬reproduction.”
[ ]. . . [Dean] Hamer had just published a study that claimed not only to have finally proved that male homosexuality was at least partially genetic but also to have pinpointed the stretch of chromosome where one of the genes involved resided. . . . Fourteen years later, neither Bocklandt nor any other researcher has pinpointed the precise base pairs that might turn a man gay.
[ ]. . . Although a follow-up study by the team replicated their findings, a study by George Rice, a neuroscientist at the University of Western Ontario, refuted Hamer’s findings completely. In addition, two other researchers told me they don’t consider Hamer’s study valid.
[i]Source: Discover Science, Technology and the Future.[/list]


[list] ● from NARTH (last updated February 2008):
Many laymen now believe that homosexuality is part of who a person really is ¬ from the moment of conception. The "genetic and unchangeable" theory has been actively promoted by gay activists and the popular media. Is homosexuality really an inborn and normal variant of human nature?
No. There is no evidence that shows that homosexuality is simply "genetic." And none of the research claims there is. Only the press and certain researchers do, when speaking in sound bites to the public.
(source: http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html)[/list]


. . . more from NARTH -
National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality:

● Study Seeks To Discover Genetic Origin Of Homosexuality

● Facts, Not flattery, About Same-Sex Attraction

● "Homosexuality Is Not Hardwired," Concludes Dr. Francis S. Collins,
Head Of The Human Genome Project

● Anthony Bogaert (& Friends) Grasping At A Straw

● Is There a "Gay Gene"?

Please visit the NARTH website to read more
(http://www.narth.com/menus/born.html)

ogajim:
Thank you Kunle, I kinda sensed that, thank you my brother.
I will leave her(?) alone because of an old saying back home " don't argue with a fool because passers by will not notice the difference" God bless you brother man.

Lol, you just have a way of describing yourself.

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
@ogajim
Welcome on board, i see you have been under attack for expressing your views on this thread and your adversary is none other than our own dear pligrim.1, i must warn you though pilgrim.1 for what ever reason assumes she is the only intelligent person on nairaland and she has a very arrogant way of expressing her ignorance or delusions especially on this issue of tithes. That apart there is obviously an interst she is defending as far is this issue is concerned hence her penchance to distort scripture and confuse issues when she is trying to deceive others about tithes.

Thank you for the personal attack - later you'd sanctimoniously claim as your brethren often do: nobody is attacking anybody. Resorting to the same ad hominems anytime your shakara fails you is now characteristic - and no, none of your adulators ever see your conceit to say a word anywhere about this. If I were to face up to this attitude again, someone somewhere would cough to complain about my methods of debates.

KunleOshob:
@Pilgrim.1
I see you keep asking anti -tithers why they don't encourage people to tithe since they don't have anything against tithing per se, the question should be why should i tithe or encourage anybody to tithe in the first place and what is the christian basis for it?

Of course, not. The reason why anti-tithers pretend they don't have a problem with anyone tithing is because they actually do. This is why your inconsistencies are laughable at best. What is the Christian basis for your own "perfectly okay" tithes for Christians?

KunleOshob:
Spot on this is the message which some of us have been trying to put across and also expect all others who claim to be christians to to support. Cos deceit is totally unchristian[whether it is being done by a pastor or not] it really beats me how someone who claims to be a true believer would put up such a spirited fight to defend a very glaring and wide spread deceit in christianity and would even go to the extent of further distorting scriptures to butress her delusions.

Deceit, as you say, is totally 'unchristian' - which is why yours also needs to be pointed out.

ogajim:
I mentioned anything about Sen. Grassley fighting tithes?

Which was why I initially asked:

[list][quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=113108.msg3977538#msg3977538 date=1244134321]Em, excuse me . . . but how does Iowa and Sen. Grassley come into the discussion? [/quote][/list]

ogajim:
When something is missing from some folks' life, they've got to find a way to compensate for the obvious void. I pity the fool that will not research things for themselves rather than join the chorus in this ignoble choir,

Absolutely precise, well done! You certainly might have had things missing somewhere and tried to compensate for the lack by trying to deflect this discussion with Sen. Grassley - which was why I asked how he's got to do with tithing. You should have done a bit of research yourself before interjecting Sen. Grassley as a compensation into your mass choir, no?

ogajim:
I would rather not drink this haterade as I've got better things to do. have a nice life and I pray you find happiness while at it NL queen.

I wonder why it took you this long to find your roots. Now you've breathed easy, do enjoy your adventures. Tara.

Why not continue in the other thread?

Another: God Made Him Gay?

[quote author=Tùdor link=topic=279631.msg3980730#msg3980730 date=1244197917]Pilgrim i find this hard to understand. In course of our discourse i asked a simple question,do you believe in the existence of allah,yet you throw back my question unanswered.
If thats the way you debate,then what a shame.[/quote]@Tùdor,

There's nothing hard to understand in what I've been discussing in this thread, or I'd wonder how people like dalaman would agree with some of them if he never understood me in the first place.

You asked some questions already in this regard; and I treated them by actually saying: "many thanks - and here are my answers", no? After having answered your questions, I then asked you pointedly:

    'Do you have answers about the "existence/non-existence" and/or "supremacy"
     of the deities you mentioned?'

Put simply, I repeatedly asked that question with only three words: "Do you, Tùdor?" If we're going to be fair, one would expect you to be genial enough to answer questions, not so? You don't seem to be forthcoming here.

Now, it seems a bit queer that you'd pointed out you don't expect to provide evidence for the hypothesis of other discussants, not so? And I acknowledged that "it's unreasonable for you to ask another person to answer your own questions". The point is that you're still throwing questions at others and refusing to answer any yourself - is that a fair dealing?

You made a proclamation about Allah in capital letters. I consequently asked you if you believed in your own proclamation. You never answered that question, and you've been seeking to draw an answer from others for your own postulations. Hmm, quite an interesting way to engage a discussion, one might say.

If you do answer, whether yes or no, you would still need to tell us WHY and then provide scientific 'evidence' or 'proof' for whatever meticulous deductions you assert. Either way, as you do so, please bear in mind that we may apply your own rule of thumb to your assertions: "What is asserted without evidence can also be summarily dismised without evidence. Shikena!" So, watch what you asserte about Allah - we're eagerly waiting for your 'summary evidence' - thank you.

ttalks:
And I get disappointed everytime I read from this Thread.

pilgrim.1 , much as I respect ur methods of debating, I really feel that u are pushing this issue down a deep end.

Some unnecessary stuff just keep coming up when u reply people.

In as much as u've stated ur points over and over again, there is no way everyone can agree with you.

You often tell Kunle that he keeps repeating the same argument over and over again - It also seems u too are doing the same.

You often say anti tithers genralise a lot and this would confuse others. I believe people are not daft or stupid enough to generalise when someone says "pastors are thieves".
Because we all know that the statement that "Nigerians are scammers" does not include all Nigerians.
People know where to draw the limits in such statements.

You've made ur point, others have made theirs, so why don't we leave it at that , rather than come here all the time to show power tussles in knowledge about varying issues.

Let's leave this tithe issue with the glaring fact that a lot of tithe payers(that does not mean all) pay their tithes without the complete facts about tithes and also the glaring fact that some pastors use this ignorance of folks to deceive and manipulate them.

We all have a responsibility to point out faults wherever they take place but when that begins to turn into something else as it is here, we should review our motives and tactics.

@ttalks,

Thank you for your counsel, and I think you only managed to highlight the very bane of the several anti-tithers who often stretch things out of proportion. Why do they keep repeating the same mantra over and over again - and none of you would direct such counsels to them in like manner? It seems that only when we face up to them, that's when someone tries to cough about "methods of debating". This is why I often say that when we take the usual oft-repeated arguments of anti-tithers to their logical ends, they tend to abandon their own cherished mantra and begin to whine and complain. This is not a matter of 'tussles in knowledge' as you infer - but what is supposed to be meant by all the silly antics that are being desperately used by anti-tithers to blur, confuse, obfuscate issues as if anyone is to be considered 'daft', 'stupid', or a 'pharisee' for not agreeing with them? Is it too much for these fellows to also review their "motives and antics" and then take your advice to "leave this tithe issue"?

True, we all have a responsibility to point out faults - but not by resorting to deliberate falsehood and pretending no one notices. If people want to dig about tithe, let them do so. Using that one subject to stretch things out of proportion and justify an anti-tithing conceit is irresponsible - and that must also be pointed out.

@Relocatusa,

Your boldness and honesty drew me to say a few things, which I hope will encourage you. If nothing else, I'll be praying for you. Second, perhaps you need to look for people who will be of practical help, so you're not fighting alone.

@dalaman,

dalaman:
[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=279631.msg3977308#msg3977308 date=1244132031]Okay, gentlemen. . . I got to go for now, until maybe laterz in the pm - if not, then tomorrow I'd be eagerly here to see what concerns you guys have.

To my atheists friends, I want you to know something: pilgrim.1 is not set against you guys as if it's a do-or-die matter. No. Rather, my interest is to draw an enabling atmosphere to discuss and then see what 'evidence' of the realities of our world could be deduced. Does that mean that I can always and at anytime provide "evidence" and/or "proof" for my worldview? No, absolutely not. Why? Because the sort of 'evidence' one might be asking for may or may not lead where my enquirers are tending to.

I agree with you, I don't think that there is any theist that can provide any evidence or the kind of evidence the atheist need. That is why I laugh at some Christian Philisophers when they try to say that they can provide "evidence" for the existence of God, after going through their so called "evidence" you see that there are so many holes in them and they end up giving Christians a bad name. They use science where they believe that its assertions will help them futher their points and throw it under the bus when they see that scientific assertions go against what they are asserting. They use the bible and try to make it say things that it does not say in other to reconcile it with some scientific postulations and throw the bible away when their opponets point out some of the scientific errors in the bible. I very much agree with you that there is no such evidence that can be provided. I have seen a Christian apologist trying to use mathematical formular and equations to prove the ressurection of Jesus, after the debate when his opponet asked him some question he ended up looking very silly.[/quote]Let me explain a few things so that no one is left bemused. In my understanding, I may not be able to proffer 'proof' or 'evidence' of such kind that a natutalist requests; but that is not to say that some kind of evidence or proof cannot be proffered for the existence of God - which by extension brings in the question of the supernatural. Indeed, some have made the effort to do so, but they were unacceptable because their enquirers many times were asking for a different type of authentication. This is why I don't waste my time trying to debate back and forth with people who are inclined to something else, when in many instances they do not have a good grasp of what they're asking.

To this end, although there are several threads for this type of enquiry about 'evidence', 'proof', etc. about the existence of God, I often just observed silently without engaging in such discussions. Quite often, the gist of the argument gets lost in so many unrelated banters. However, I chanced upon this very thread because I thought it was a brilliant moment to engage atheists on Nairaland with the very thing they often fail to consider. After all said and done, it becomes obvious that they themselves cannot provide any such 'proof, evidence,' etc for authenticating their own worldview(s) about all realities and phenomena of our known world. Again, it is not as if they never make the attempt - but where they do, such kinds of 'evidences' as they proffer are often intelligently rejected for their basic weakness: they do not attempt to even scratch the surface about the basic enquiry in discussions of this nature. There are several of such basic points, but I have thus far narrowed my discussions to only one: the supernatural.

dalaman:

Now, what if they ask me questions about the basic point in my approach so far? Would there be any evidence of any kind that persuades me of the veracity of reality such as could not be addressed by the naturalism espoused by atheists (by that, I mean 'hard core atheists')? My answer is yes - and there are several of them.

I will like you to state them if you have the time.

Yes, I'll try and find time to state a few of them and also post some detail about them. For starters, there are such phenomena that may be said to be outside the ambit of naturalism - a good one that comes to mind is telepathy, and perhaps also experiences after death. It is not so much what may be inferred from them, nor even how a naturalist tends to "excuse" them away with some theory. Rather, the basic point is whether such occurences are or could be accurately determined by naturalistic means. If the typical atheist on Nairaland assumes he has an answer, he had better be prepared to replicate these events in precisely the same manner and achieve the same results - repeatedly and accurately.

dalaman:
I don't think that the debate can ever be won, even if the debate is won it still doesn't prove anything on both sides IMO. It could only help those on both sides that have an open mind to take a deeper look at their own positions and re-examine or reconsider it.

You just captured it in a capsule. Well done.

[quote author=Tùdor link=topic=279631.msg3980177#msg3980177 date=1244187077]Pilgrim i asked for a simple yes or no answer. Is that so hard?[/quote]Hi, Tùdor. It's not too hard - just as I asked an even simpler question: "Do you, Tùdor?"

Like I said earlier, you cannot arrogate to yourself the birthright of throwing questions at others and addressing none yourself. When you started asking me questions, I offered several answers - because I'm quite interested in dialoguing. I believe it should be a two-way traffic, not a single-ended stick where anyone is put on spot to only answer questions while those who are asking them do not address any themselves.

ogajim:
Sen. Grassley was the only one with enough balls to challenge the hustlers of the gospel here and the subpoenas will be flying soon in case you have been too busy looking for tithe preserving scriptures to notice. Look it up dude!

This is hilariously cheap!   Is Senator Charles Ernest  Grassley (R) of Iowa fighting tithe in the USA? Are you running desperately out of steam to just look for anything to say and confuse your camp? You live in the US and are so unaware of the issues you try to argue. Please show me where Sen. Grassley has been campaigning against tithes or tithing in US churches. Your empty hot-air noises and conceit are getting even more shameful.

ogajim:
It is unchristian to learn something and keep it to your self, this hustle must be stopped. Folks at the very least need to know that is is not required regardless of what those fake "men of God" preaches to them.

This chap is a piece of work! How many times have we argued your true colour here?

ogajim:
Enigma, you are correct it is rampant here even before PTL came to light and all the stuff that followed, the troubling thing is that Nigerian "pastors" have taken that and we all know what happens when naija folks get involved, they take it to a never before seen level which is what we are dealing with today.

Yawn. . 

ogajim:
I kid you not that I heard this a couple of weeks ago in a naija church " A bus was stopped by armed robbers who then proceeded to separate the passengers based on those that pay tithe and those that don't and their leader told the folks that said they didn't pay tithe they were going to get robbed because they have been robbing God all along", kids might fall for that kind of nonsense, the only way I believe that crap is if you confirm to me that the leader of the bandits was a "pastor" who is doing his second job.

Even more yawn.   We've heard worse stories by anti-tithers. Got another boring tale?

ogajim:
I don't blame these hustlers at all, I blame the folks that fall for the cheap hustle.

Please tell us: is Sen. Grassley fighting tithes and tithing in US churches?

ogajim:
Condolences
And this is from a "christian?

Want more condolences for your anti-tithing loss? 

@ogajim,

What really is your problem? If you're here to be made sport of, it'll be good being entertained by your desperations - although you're not the first to lose sense in your self-defeatist attitude.

ogajim:
Shamelessly
WOW
I had no intention of touching a nerve there so excuse me if you were offended by those words and like I said, I have proof and continue to see this distortion regularly and I don't see a reason why I can't stand up to these hustlers if no one else will.

Nope, I wasn't offended, so don't start off with such a cheap self-applause. It's ridicculous to try to deny the very thing you have done - is that how people take things around you with such vacuous minds? The queries I left you are pointers for the point I made about your shameless conceit, which predictably you didn't address. Instead you crawled back to slurp up the same harrumph you've spilt.

ogajim:
I don't need validation of any kind nor do I need to make money off poor folks in the name of salvation.

I don't see how that says anything intelligent about you. I've repeatedly made clear that 'giving' is not a salvific issue - others have read it, no one has fainted about it, and you're the only one who's been singing solo about money and 10% to buy and secure the grace of Christ. Then you keep foaming in the mouth when it's obvious your assertions are leaking.

ogajim:
God sees all things and will vindicate his children. No hard feelings at all.

I don't have any hard feelings; but the the one thing you ought to do is hold your self-righteousness to yourself. No one asks for your ID card for any validation as to why you have to keep making self-defeating interpolations about what nobody is arguing here.

ogajim:
I am a faithful servant who continues to learn and not above any one, I can't speak on what obtains in the UK, EU or even Nigeria though I have been in some of those places enough times to almost pay local taxes because I can't understand it better than someone who lives it on a daily basis. It is an insult to question what I see or have seen since you don't live it, have the same set of resources or access for that matter. Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere MLK taught us so they need to find real jobs rather than dupe innocent folks with non existent scriptures they bend to suit their whims.

Oh bother! yap-yap-yap. Do you really have a more interesting song? This one is a revised and boring edition of your lost soundtrack.

ogajim:
I would vote for Sen. Grassley if I were from Iowa for at least trying to investigate some of the local nonsense but we can't expect same from naija since they all hang out together now can we?
Everyday for the thief but one day for the owner of the house/farm, odikwa very very risky my people!

Hahaha!! Em, excuse me . . . but how does Iowa and Sen. Grassley come into the discussion?  Like I said, no hard feelings; but poor Grassley most probably would be bemussed to be the diving board for a discussion he has no clue about! M-e-n, this is classic. Wetin really dey bite you for body wey you dey mention "the thief"? Please tell us: did something hit you so with a hard-to-recover tragic loss that all these unrelated drool just seems to occupy you all day? My condolences in advance, sha.

Okay, gentlemen. . . I got to go for now, until maybe laterz in the pm - if not, then tomorrow I'd be eagerly here to see what concerns you guys have.

To my atheists friends, I want you to know something: pilgrim.1 is not set against you guys as if it's a do-or-die matter. No. Rather, my interest is to draw an enabling atmosphere to discuss and then see what 'evidence' of the realities of our world could be deduced. Does that mean that I can always and at anytime provide "evidence" and/or "proof" for my worldview? No, absolutely not. Why? Because the sort of 'evidence' one might be asking for may or may not lead where my enquirers are tending to.

Now, what if they ask me questions about the basic point in my approach so far? Would there be any evidence of any kind that persuades me of the veracity of reality such as could not be addressed by the naturalism espoused by atheists (by that, I mean 'hard core atheists')? My answer is yes - and there are several of them.

At the end of the day, it does not mean therefore that I have "won" the debate/discourse. It basically mean for me that there's an underlying reason why I do not have the faith to be an atheist.

Let me leave it there for now until laterz. Meanwhile, you guys take it easy and enjoy plenty.