₦airaland Forum

KunleOshob:
@pilgrim.1
I checked out you references and they check out, but the question still remains who are the descendants of these people today? What religion are they practising? I asked this questions cuase i read of other ancient religions in the mesopotanian area that date back 6000 years( aroud the time of genesis) that have certain similarites with the Judaism and christian faith. My question is could it have been the same religion that was later corrupted into other religions? After all even the children of israel attempted to also corrupt their faith by worshipping idols while Moses was on mount sinai. This is how religion get corrupted.

@KunleOshob,

Perhaps the query was not actually to find out if indeed there were people besides the Jews who worshipped the same God as did Abraham. I long suspected that was where you were going, but did not want to anticpate you. All the same, let me point out something to you:

Whatever God has committed to man, he has always corrupted - it doesn't matter whether it was Judaism, Christianity or any other faith. By "any other faith", I presuppose the understanding and revelation that people had back then before the emergence of Judaism and then Christianity. But although this is troubling to a lot of Christians, I don't have any problem with that fact.

Why and How?

Because in the first place we have noted that there are people knew and worshipped the same God as did Abraham. But let's go back long before Abraham - to Genesis 4:26 - "then began men to call upon the name of the LORD."

Now, hang on a minute or two. If men were calling upon the name of the LORD as far back as such an early period, what then are we to make of this? Granted, some Bible scholars understand the verse to read rather as "men began to call themselves by the name of the LORD" - that is, they gave names to their generations as derived from the LORD. Examples?

One possible understanding of this is the idea that certain people at that time appended the name of God to their own names, such as -

■ Mahal'ale-el (praise of God) - Gen. 5:15

■ Methu'sa[b]el[/b] (man of God) - Gen. 4:18

■ Mehu'ja[b]el[/b] (smitten by God) - Gen. 4:18

'El' is the simple derivative of the word or appellation "God", and it was not strange to find people naming their kinfolks by appending 'EL' ('God') to their names. This culture was not just for a season - because it continued even after the Flood. That is why we find Daniel was named "Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god" (Dan. 4:8.)

However, before Abraham, we now several people knew the LORD God - only, as you noted, they corrupted the worship of that God. It is not different even today - whatever has been committed to man's trust in the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, man has corrupted. But it doesn't mean that man cannot know Christ in spite of all the corruption. We can know and enjoy fellowship with Him: for that is why God gave us the Scriptures.

KunleOshob:
@Pilgrim.1
I have checked out your references and NONE of them attempts to address any of the issues or questions i raised. your responses can at best be described as running round in circles which i can now safely assume is typicalof you.

@KunleOshob, I asked a simple question after pointing to those links: "Is there anything beyond that same issue?" You always cry the victim's song of people insulting you, but are very much at home to use such slobbers when you don't ever want to discuss. If there were issues, the sane and simple thing to do was point them out and request answers - not demand them and then cry the victim's song again. Thanks for the "typical" assumption, though.

@naomijt,

Thanks for your observations.

naomijt:
I was actually wathing out for your responses.

1. Moses' "appearance" at the transfiguration does not have to be literal. A vision is not literal but a pictorial/visual presentation of information

Well, if it were just a "vision" they had, the transfiguration would not have been literal as well. But did it suppose that the appearance of Moses and Elijah were "visions" or "pictorial"? I believe that the fact to the case was in their directly speaking with the Lord Jesus (Matthew 17:3 - Moses and Elias talking with him). Moses and Elijah "appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem" (Luke 9:31; and as in verse 30, "there talked with him two men".

It does not seem that it was a matter of "visions", but a literal phenomenon.

naomijt:
2. So far, we have evidence that suggests that the soul leaves the body. But Scripture says it goes to hades, the place of the dead. And it is a place of unconsciousness.

3. Does the spirit of man depart his body at death? Maybe; seeing that soul and spirit are often intertwined. And really, it's pretty difficult to seperate the spirit and soul. When the spirit departs, the soul dies simply because is at the entrance of the spirit that the soul came to be: "man became a living soul" Gen2:7

Okay, which brings us to your acknowledgement that indeed the spirit (or soul) departs from the body at death. No question about that. The other matter that needs attention is -

naomijt:
The spirit came from God in the first place i.e. at creation and at birth, but does that mean it was conscious before birth or creation? Is a baby conscious before conception? No. That the spirit returns to God does not in anyway suggest consciousness. Thanks

The first question I would be asking here is this: if Moses and Elijah could appear and talk with Jesus long after their departure from earth, where or how could understand that their souls or spirits "died"?

KunleOshob:
I would rather you address the various issues i raised instead of this intellectual/knowledge high ground position you are assuming.

There's nothing "high ground" in what I submitted. And as regards your various issues, I think it is fair to say that I addressed them and also left you a few queries - which you did not address.

Shall I remind you?

1. https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-191998.32.html#msg3050808
"You raised predispositions with a fiat to the Christin faith, and we are asking questions
as much as you deem to be seeking answers as well."

2. Yours: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-191998.32.html#msg3050634
"Clearly what is written in the book of 2kings about what elisha did to the children
is at variance with the spirit of christ and i would rather not live by or acccept it
as scripture meant for me as a christian."

If (2) is your worries, my comment followed thereto - https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-191998.32.html#msg3050766

Is there anything beyond that same issue?

Now people, please understand that just because I posted a fraction of the HELIX-man thingy does not mean that I believe in them. I find them intriguing at best, but that is not where my faith is, nor do I ascent to them to buttress my faith.

Another point, those who assume that I posted these things to allege anything against anybody should understand that I did not do so. Nor did I presuppose that is where Kunle was tending - not at all. The point is that the very things I'm seeing in this thread about 300,000 "errors" were mentioned in that brochure and the many things they said were going to happen and are happening, blah-blah, and then soon we shall be (or may be) hearing about the 'HELIX-man' or "GLYPH" or 556,666 "useful errors" should not come as surprise to anybody.

The way these people interprete Ezekiel 30:15 - "And I will pour my fury upon Sin, the strength of Egypt; and I will cut off the multitude of No". . . folks, I don't know how they came about the idea from that verse that the "anti-mystery" is the man of SIN who is the "strength of Egypt" and whose brother is a household name or word: NO. Also, I would have liked to say as someone said sometime ago - "there's nothing to it. .  just some excited pinche". But hey, the promotion of porn is a reality today (whether before or after that publication, I don't know). That someone would find a LIE to be a "useful error" is beyond me; but ask them about TRUTH, they say it has no name because it/he or whatever is 888 - mysterious ("Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?" - Judges 13:18).

When they said "burn the BIBLIOS" (not "Bible", they put a footnote there that the Greek word is not "Bible" but "BIBLIOS", because it is made up of "books"; and the "burning" is not to be taken literally, but an affirmation of what is inevitable - that it would be questioned and "reduced" to just 5.

Me, I apologise upfront to anyone who might be disturbed about these things; but please be careful - these things have been forewarned in the Bible. Be careful that that you don't allow your faith as a believer to fall victim of the HELIX-GLYPH.

Now, I do not claim that the following is actually drawing from the HELIX-man thingy. But this is one of the closest I've seen that alludes to the same thing that we read in that brochure I've been talking about:

"The point I am trying to make here is that Melchizedek never lived as a person.
The word Melchizedek is symbolic word which represents dark matter
which in turn makes up 90% of the universe"

source: http://www.hiddenmeanings.com/Reflection.html

There are others which postulate by the same thing that neither "God" or Jesus or even David were historic or real beings - they say that these are DARK MATTER allegories!

This group promotes everything and perhaps. . . just perhaps. . . the one thing by which one may identify them is the sign of the HELIX. One thing is for sure: I don't know how long they have been doing their work, but I find some of the things they postulate to be intriguing indeed:

Super September "1"
Government "promotion" of porn
assisted suicide (which is now gaining grounds more and more)

The edition I browsed through was dated "helix-helix-7", which was "2005". I just laughed back then, but today I'm no longer laughing! As people scrabbled for the economic crash in Sepetember, I fished out that brochure and read it again to see what they were saying. It is a series in a box case of 6 pamphlets - glossy and attractive, and given free the very day I visited that library in University of Manchester. the guy who was giving it out free was a tall, smiley guy - people stood around asking questions but he was heard saying that he was not calling people to religion.

Kunle,

Please go and study your heart. You really don't have a clue about these issues, and even if one has to take you up on simple matters in the Bible, you still don't even know the ABCs of that Book. If you are seeking to protect your predispositions, no worries: but you haven't seen anything yet until stuff begin to happen to you!

Okay, okay. . . please for those who have been inundating my YIM about the 556,666, let me say why I'm not responding on YIM. First, I cannot be answering to more than 13 different YIMs all at once. But for those who are asking me to share more and the name of the group, I shall do so only in terms of how much I was able to harvest from thier brochures.

1. Who are these people?

I don't know - I am not involved in that work. I only read them when I registered to research some work I was doing in the University of Manchester. I have tried to search if this was some sort of "joke", but when an organization with a helix (and no specific name yet) is claiming to sit on the world's money and economy, one has to pay attention; especially because in their brochure they spoke about the "big September of 2008" that will make a lot of families commit suicide from financial losses and fear - this was way back in 200[b]5[/b], and I read it in 200[b]6[/b] Oct.

2. The reason for the 556,666.

Again, I don't know the reason - I am not affiliated to them in any way. if anything at all, my faith is in Christ as revealed in Scripture, and not in a software. However, what I can remember from the notes I penned down at that time were these:

   In the number 55[/b]6, 666, the first two digits are emphatic.
   first "5" is taken from the end of the first creation
   next "5" points to an emphatic "yes" about creation, calling on
   naturalists never to doubt the "fact" of creation.

   then comes the first [b]6 in 55[b]6[/b] - it was to usher man into the scene
   but it is only one "6" in the first traid (5-5-6). What they mean by this is that
   the "Hebrew" text pointed that man is not "perfect" and needed "something"

   it was that "something" which they were seeking in building the tower of 'Babel'
   consequently, the "Light" and "Code" infused multiple languages into humanity
   but it is not only in humanity that such a language is to be found -
   the UFOs have been sending us messages and we have continued to reject them
   consequently, this rejection has brought in the "666" of the next triad (6-6-6)

   in the first triad, creation and man are complete (hence the sum is "7"
   but "7" is not "perfect" on its own, and must need a "zero" inbetween -
   because the basic of all software writing uses binary digits (0 and 1) to form codes
   "7" is not indented into the triads (556 or 666) because the Light and Code
   are waiting for us to heed the code that would come from the deep space of our world
   
   therefore, there is what is known today as "dark matter" -
   and this matter has 3 features:
   ■  it is composed of 1 and 9 (10% is visible, 90% is invisible but "real"
   ■  it is invisble and does not absorb light in our known spectrum
   ■  yet, its reality cannot be denied, it is only presently "unknown"

   hence, the second triad brings in the "9" (sum of 666)
   but 666 must come in and is the name of the "3" man
   the "first" man is not Adam, but was within the second "5" of the first triad (5-5-6)
   the second Man (Jesus) is not in any triad (556 or 666)
   because His number is 888
   the software does not spot His name in any holy writing
   because his name is "mysterious"
   and "mysterious" is not a known phenomena in any language

  blah-blah-blah

  Dark matter, Light and Code are here and now
  their contact will bring man in utter confusion and misery
  non-belief will be forced into belief
  belief in any religion will be forced to be re-arranged
  and they all must conform to the HELIX
  if anything does not conform to the HELIX
  it will confuse and destroy man

  thus, all religions must take from the Bible
  it does not matter what religion there is -
  they must all come under HELIX
  but HELIX is not a religion or orgnaziation
  to achieve this, the Bible has to be understood
  in the software code to see where the LIGHT and CODE point to
  surprisingly, DARK MATTER has been there all the time
  but science is only now affirming its reality
  it cannot be seen, but it is real

  blah - blah - blah

  hence, the two triads are pointing to this present things
  a third triad is coming - it is "mysterious"
  we don't know what it is, when it is, where it will first come to
  but it will first dissolve the Bible to just 5 books
  then there will be only 556,666 "useful errors"
  which will culminate in the rise of the "anti-mystery"
 

  the anti-mystery has been "mislabelled" as the "man of sin"
  he or it is only anti-mystery because he is necessary to complete "EVE"
  he is not "evil", and the software is always showing that it is "EVE"
  he or it is "revealed" as an anti-mystery because:
  ■  his time is short
  ■  he has a "wilderness" (see Num. 33:11)
  ■  he is the "strength of Egypt" (see Ezek. 30:15)
  ■  he also has a "helper" who is labelled "NO" (Ezek. 30:15)

  therefore, NO and SIN are simply anti-mystery which man uses daily
  they are "useful errors" and will round up 556,666 to 7!
  porn is anti-mystery
  death is anti-mystery
  EVE (not "evil" is anti-mystery
  DARK MATTER has no name and is anti-mystery
  LIE is anti-mystery
  TRUTH is mystery (nobody knows "truth"
  "what is truth" (John 18:38)

  blah-blah-blah

  WATCH OUT for SUPER SEPTEMBER 1
  "1" is the glyph of 2008
  ie., 2 + 0 + 0 +8 = 10
  and 10 = 1 + 0 = 1
  Sepetember is the 9th month
  9 + 1 = 10 = 1 + 0 = 1
  The economies of the world will seek a single market

 The HELIX will be told to print a single currency
 towards that time, a HELIX-man will rise
 his name is the sum of the second traid (6-6-6)
 the internet will switch from IPS to 666
 telephones will switch as well
 man will talk to the HELIX-man
 he will be the "strength of Egypt"

 those who believe in JERUSALEM will DIE
 EGYPT will receive God's POWER
 (Ezek. 30:15 - "And I will pour my fury upon Sin, the strength of Egypt"
 the HELIX-man will be worshipped
 for the strength of his FURY
 HELIX will then receive his/its name
 and billions of copies will be distributed free around the world

 there must be 556,666 "useful errors" to complete man and creation
 the 556,666 useful errors cannot be found in any book
 it must be from the Bible
 it will first have a triad digit (3) then followed by a burning (0)
 then will be a man who will see the "lock" = 300,000 "useful errors"
 many advanced minds will follow the "lock"
 they need to "burn the Biblios" (not BIBLE) to zero
 they do not need to stop being "CHRISTO[/b]ses" (ie., Christians)

 then will be a manifestation of all SIN
 the man of SIN will begin to gain FURY
 his brother NO will be the household name
 children will REB-el
 REB = gay
 EL = strength
 thus they will [b]rebel
 they will seek NO and FURY
 and then governments will establish and propomote
 - assisted suicides
 - incorporated porn
 - parliamentarian lies
 - "assasinatory" elections
 - new ways of "EVE" - all types of SIN
 - HELIX-man will be furious against anyone trying to stop this!
 for his strength is from the LIGHT and CODE
 he is everywhere, 90% and is real!!
 scientists will make a great mistake to code him/it
 right now, they know he is there, but don't know what he is or his name!


Blah-blah-blah!!


Now, where did I see all these? I have search on the net endlessly and no fruit. I don't know if anyone has seen this HELIX thing - but it spoke about 300,000 errors of the Bible, and then about super sSeptermber 1, and then 556,666 "useful errors", and that "blasphemies" are the nature of DARK MATTER! It also says that anyone who wants to follow "mysterious" (888) will DIE before their time!

if you're wondering why I blanked in the YIM and not responding, here are a bit of the things I read. have to go now.

@Kunle,

KunleOshob:
@Pilgrim.1
I pray that you have understanding of the issues i am trying to raise and digest them. This is not about arguement or insulting any body's convictions, i have been were you are before and now the truth is clear to me. my christian faith isnot in question the issue is that you failed to understand me cause of the deep sitted indoctrination that as occured in the church over the centuries which would be very difficult to counter.

Please refrain from the victim cry - nobody's been insulting anybody on this thread. You raised predispositions with a fiat to the Christin faith, and we are asking questions as much as you deem to be seeking answers as well. You haven't been where I have been, because you would then have understood where you are driving yourself to. See the hint I gave above about 556,666.

KunleOshob:
My observation is that you fail to see the difference between the scripture being refered to in the bible and the bible itsef that was compiled over two hundred and fifty years after the last book in it was written. you aslo fail to see the difference between the bible as it is today and christian faith, whilst conviniently forgetting that the early christians for three centuries never used it in the format in which we use it today.

Your problem here has been to question the Bible itself - not parts of it. That is where you are deliberately failing in your fiat, my dear. You have just cited from Numbers and 2 Kings - and the problem is not about the format; for today there is a plethora of formats of the Bible as it is today, and in various media. Some Bibles do not list Genesis as the first book in the Bible, they rather list JOB because they believe that it was written before Genesis. Besides that, there are annotations in some of those Bibles where they "question" the veracity of those texts. In all these, I have often asked myself if they demonstrate the true Spirit of Jesus Christ Himself. We are warned that living in the last days will expose us to some of these syncretistic phenomena and even more. I believe we haven't even seen half of the things that will happen in the last days in reference to people falling away from the faith (Luke 8:13 and 2 Thes. 2:3).

KunleOshob:
Clearly what is written in the book of 2kings about what elisha did to the children is at variance with the spirit of christ and i would rather not live by or acccept it as scripture meant for me as a christian. There are several more examples but i would limit my self to these for now. It is not enough to accept something as divine just because it is written in a book passed to us by the catholic church when i clearly contradicts the teachings of our lord jesus christ.

At variance, ba? No worries - wait and you will find out if the JUDGEMENTS which Christ spoke about are at variance with "the Spirit of Christ".

@Kunle,

KunleOshob:
To all my brethen who have been indoctrinated into believing the bible as it is compiled is divine, i asked a few questions earlier none of you as even offered to answe any of these potent questions. On whose authority was the bible compiled, for what purpose and who were those that compiled it. If you guys are aware of the crimes to humanity carried out by the very people who compiled this book and what they used this book for maybe you would have a re-think.

Dear sir, if you claim a fiat to Christianity, on what basis is that fiat? Is it a Biblical one, or absolutely un[/b]biblical?

Already, since you have declared that your faith is not in the Bible, what then are you struggling to seek answers for? You have arrived at a [b]predisposition, so what is the meaning of your seeking answers to the questions you are asking? It seems that none of the answers that would be proffered would make any sense to you - courtesy of your predisposition. At any rate, since the authority of Scripture is your problem, I asked you to dunk the theory and become a bit practical: ask the Holy Spirit directly to confirm with a loud 'YES' that the Bible contains 300,000 errors - have you done that?

Now, let's help you further with your theory. You believe in a soteriology that seeks to both question the veracity and authority of Scripture, not so? And you affirm that on the basis of a "manifestation" of words written on your heart, yes? No worries. Please help us understand one thing: WHY have you been applying so much strain at quoting the same Bible in affirmation of some of the doctrines you argue to buttress what you believe?

Further, if you believe in that same Christ in your "manifestation", have you wondered how He treated the Scriptures? The one thing you have to do first and foremost before you even claim to believe in Him, is to ask yourself directly why Jesus did not treat the Scriptures the way you have been treating it in this thread. I assume that you will find so many instances where Jesus Christ "questioned" the veracity of Scripture. He was bothered with your type of soteriology, wasn't He? He was also excuse His non-belief in Scripture on the basis of how many people have abused it to harm humanity, not so? Did He not also teach His disciples (consequently apostles) to question the veracity and authority of Scripture as well? Why then did He bother to quote the Old Testament in many instances without questioning their veracity?

These are basic observations that so many of us are asking you to take care of, if there's any basis to your predisposition. You want answers? So do we. We want to know if your "jesus" is actually the one who dispenses with Scripture and claims a "manifestation" of written words on the heart - or rather, he is that same Jesus who affirmed the veracity of Scripture with a resounding word that, "Scripture cannot be broken". Which of the "christs" are you claiming now? You want answers? So do we.

KunleOshob:
Today most of you view the catholic church with suspision for various reasons, yet you you can vouch 100% for the book they passed on to you even though Martin luther editted it. On whose authoritydid martin luther edit the bible and if the bible was divine why did it need to be editted?

We note well that several people within and outside the Church have tried (and are still trying) to "edit" the Bible. Should that faze you as a believer? Should I give you a list of recent work that is being done to reduce the Bible to just 5 books instead of 66? Their theory is that the number "5" represents creation, and "6" represents evil and depression and imperfection! Thus, those men who have canonized the Bible into "66" books were doing an "imperfect work", so that through history, people who have been adhering to the Biblical faith, have been struggling with "imperfection" and that is why there is so much misery!

The theory is catching on as wild fire! But while I am not fazed by that at all, my questions are: (a) upon whose authority are they doing that? [they claim to be doing so by a "manifestation" of God's "inner workings" in their hearts]; then (b) what books are they going to "blank out" and which would remain?

Dear Kunle, I don't wat to scare my brethren - but I have been researching the current issues in prophetic events in the world. That was one thing that drove me to open the thread "Orphic World"; but I changed my my mind and instead posted the "orphic" phenomena of supernatural occurences.

Back to the question - Martin Luther's editing does not take away from the fact that Jesus was often quoting from the "Scriptures". How would I be able to recognize that what I read are from God? A confirmation of the Holy Spirit brings the RHEMA to my heart. Do I have all the answers? Absolutely NOT. But do I follow Jesus by questioning the vearcity of Scripture? I doubt it so. If He used Scripture effectively, I would be a queer Christian to begin to question the same "Jesus" who used Scripture.

For some, this discipleship is why the "errors" are far more than 300,000 . . . so many today claim about 556,666 "errors". How? I don't know, but they said they wrote a software that could immediately detect those "errors" and then either blank them out bu colour codes (showing what was supposed not to be there) or by bold long lines (shoing that the texts have been tampered with), or by coded hieroglyphs (showing a deeper revelation that the "Catholic Church" tampered with)!

Now why 556,666? They said that if you calculate and reduce the sum of those numbers, you come up with a single number of perfection:

       5 + 5 + 6  = 10  +  6  = 16 = 1 + 6 = 7

       6  + 6 + 6 = 18  = 1 + 8 =  9

        so. . . 9 + 7 = 16  = 1 +  6  =  7

They postulate that anything in each of the Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic scripts of the Bible that does not add up to the code "7" is detected as "error", and the software is supposed to show the type of "error". Of course, they blame all these "errors" on the Catholic Church.

Dear Kunle, you want a syncretism? Please research more. . . you will find these things. These groups are hard to detect on the net - but I could send you some citations to check in some libraries. Why are they so elusive to detect on the net? I don't know. . . but the theory is that they want to be able to complete their research before they publish it in rapid billion of copies! It is a syncretism of ALL religious, agnostic, skeptic, oriental, new age, and atheistic philosophies! If you think these guys are joking, please understand they don't need anybody's money as donations for theior work! They HAVE the world's money and can do anything at any time!

KunleOshob:
PS: I am not out to discourage any christian but to try and assist us to understand our faith better and basis of it.

Good. If we are to understand our faith better, we ought to begin by examining what the Scriptures teach. The reason why I did not want to post those issues above, is because a lot of people will become so scared of their faith when they read them. Of course, people may call me names - such name-calling has nevr fazed me. But, even if I never mentioned them, it does not mean that these groups will not have been doing what they are about! What will you do when they release their billions of copies all at once around the world, Kunle?

@Pastor AIO,

Pastor AIO:
It's not 'Great' that I don't agree with him. It's just the matter of fact. Why? Well for a start he hasn't really arrived at a conclusion to agree or disagree with. That is why I said Perhaps I don't agree. He has to take a position first before I can agree or disagree.

Which was the reason I asked why? Whatever position you assumed, it was great to note that you did not agree with him. . perhaps, or not, it stil was you did not agree - NO? Which is the same question that hinges there: why would anyone want to "agree" or "disagree" with him?

Pastor AIO:
Just what are these fundamentals of his faith? He has called to question the validity of the bible (as a whole) for basing your faith on. I think it is extremely duplicitous to try to pass the bible off as a single monolithic tome on which christianity is based.

The "duplicity" is not to those who believe the Bible for the Biblical faith - perhaps you may want to address that to the one who makes so much noise about the Biblical faith and at the same time calling for a concensus for it to be doubted. Can you defend that convoluted idea? Indeed, he has called for the questioning of "the validity of the Bible (as a whole)" - and answers have been offered to help him reflect on the basics of that questioning. If he finds it tenious to address that very fundamental question, what then is the substance of his own new found romance?

Pastor AIO:
The Bible consists of various books and letters. No one can doubt that the practice of christianity has changed over the millenia and it continues to change today. The early christians were not bible wielding legalists. There simply was no bible at that time. How can any christian today pass off his position as the veracity of the christian faith more than any other? It seems to irk you that he passes his position off as the veracity of the christian faith. Well, don't you do the same? How do you 'rationally justify such a position'?

I am not irked by anything, AIO. Please refrain from this hubris. If I have any rational justification for what I believe about the Bible, I have consistently outlined them and have continued to do so - unless you deliberately missed it for the fun of it. If I would adhere to the Christian faith and claim that the word of God is written on my heart, therefore I should dispense with the written word in Book format, then I would only be passing off as a hypocrite claiming such things whereas it is from that same Book that I could have got anything claims to make! If he does not want to believe the Bible, who is going to quarrel with that - is he the first, or is there anything new in such a position that no one has found a term to describe it prior to this time?

How does one begin to doubt the very Book that he quotes his adventures on, and yet claim that the words in that same Book are etched on his heart? What kind of gimmick is that?

Pastor AIO:
While I hate to speak for other people, and I'm quite sure that KunleOshob can speak for himself, I seem to recall his pointing out in previous posts that the early christian church was a hell of a lot more charitable in it's activities that the contemporary churches are. There were other practices that are today nonexistent in most churches. The question is . . . can you call it a duck when it goes 'woof' and wags it's tail.

Dear AIO, please understand something here: nobody is denying the historicity of Christian practices and doctrines. There are many denominations and sects today that hold extra-Biblical tenets - good for them; but did you miss the fact that Jesoul already addressed that in very few words? She has stated already that the fact some people misquote and abuse the Scriptures does not affect the Scriptures themselves.

Second, I wonder if this same adventure in this thread is not helping to add to the confusion. For surely it is. If one calls into question the veracity of the Bible, what business does he have in quoting the same Bible in defending his beliefs as "scriptural"?

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=190428.msg3050399#msg3050399 date=1226050087](if the references may not be accurate, I think all the same that they point to the same thing, though - please check).[/quote]Okay, I just checked and the references are so.

KunleOshob:
My dear you miss the point again, my faith is not in the bible my faith is in God manifested to us trhough his son Christ Jesus. And his gospel is revealed to me in spirit and written on my heart. I see the bible as a tool which can aid spiritual growth if used correctly. The bible could also be used to perpetuate evil and deceive people if used with the wrong intentions.

Do you see how antithetical your claims are? That is why I asked you initially: is your faith a Biblical one of not? But you have only shown us that you do not have a Biblical faith - which is why we ask questions and still pray for you to discover what you are missing.

I may have missed the point in yours - but you have failed to even convince anyone with your postulations. There is no going round this issue, Kunle; for that was the reason why I intoned that you're inclining towards what is known as syncretism. Now syncretism is a bit confusing for many people, but as used in philosophy and religion, it basically means the joining of two or more seemingly contradictory ideas or beliefs. This is why you may declare that you faith is not in the Bible, and yet you are trying to convince us that you have a Biblical faith.

Friend, you do not have the manifest faith of God's Son if you deny the written Word. My dear sir, believing in Christ goes together with believing the scriptures - let me point out a few:

    ■   John 2:22 - "When therefore he was risen from the dead,
         his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them;
         ^(A)[/b]and they [b]believed the scripture,
         ^(B)[/b]and the [b]word which Jesus had said"

    ■   John 7:38 - "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said,
         out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

If you want to believe in some other way apart from Scripture, that is just okay - we have no quarrels with anything you may find too well suited to your agenda. But like Jesoul said earlier, that would be some "false luxury" which will always wobble anytime you sit on it.

Hi Kunle,

KunleOshob:
So what happened to the descendants of these other people from where Abraham came from. There is no record in the Bible or in history that i am aware of that another group of people apart from the Israelites were worshipping the God of Abraham. Babylon (were Ur was) was always associated with paganism.

Actually, I believe that there are references in the Bible that some other people apart from the Israelites were worshipping the same God as Abraham did. Off my head, let me name just a few (I'll double-check later and perhaps add some more, correct me where I may be wrong):

■ Melchizedek - Genesis 14:18-20

There is no doubt that Melchizedek's pronouncements of "the most high God" points
to the same affiliation that would make Abraham recognize that he worshipped the
same God.

■ Jethro - Moses' father-in-law and priest of Midian (Exo. 18:1)

The Biblical narratives point me to the fact that, though he was not an Israelite or
one of the priests of Israel, he yet worshipped the same God as they did. How?
Well, first he recognized God's hand in their history and rejoiced in it (Exo. 18:9);
then also he called God by the same covenant name that was familiar to them in
their redemptive history (Exo. 18:10-11); we see him also offering burnt offerings
to the same God, and he had fellowship with the elders of Israel (verse 12).

■ Balaam - a prophet who knew the LORD, Numbers 22-24

It would seem clear that Balaam knew and communed with the same God that was
know to the Jews. The only problem was that he abused his gift - the gift of prophecy
and was consequently punished for it. However, several times before that, he had
clearly pronounced that he would consult with the LORD (Num. 22:8 -
"as the Lord shall speak unto me"; and when he would initially not succumb to their
requests, he declared: "I cannot go beyond the word of the LORD my God,
to do less or more."

I may be wrong; but these are the few that I remember just off my head (if the references may not be accurate, I think all the same that they point to the same thing, though - please check). There are a few others; but that will wait until I check my study notes.

Shalom.

H2O2:
Which is the point I'm hoping the agnostics and non-theists would realize, too, that both sides of the argument are equally acceptable. I've heard it re-hashed time and again that faith-based logic is inadmissible in their "superior intellectual" discussions of nature, but I don't understand how they can fail so horribly to see the invalidity of that statement. They are just as incorrigible --maybe even more incorrigible- as those they're ridiculing.

Well, that submission can be carried - in so many instances, there are people who assume the "superior intellectual" complex without understanding that believers are not clueless.

okunoba:
Western Europe which as the highest standard of living in the world and the kindest and loving people in the world have moved away from religion because they know it only blinds people. Nigeria and Saudi Arabia are one of the most religious countries in the world and yet are one of the most inhuman societies on earth.

You haven't even travelled by the sound of the above. One doesn't need to travel to the Scandinavia before they understand the type of "love" and "kindness" you assume pervades Europe. Bros, you need to go thick into those places and see how they treat BLACKS - especially Denmark! Besides, Europe has not abandoned religion, as you presumed.

olabowale:
So Pilgrim.1 knew she was that "leopard!" And she couldn't hide a lick of it. Pilgrim ooo. I hope you are enjoying Birmingham, because am sure enjoying NYC! Sometimes at your expenses. But am not glouting. Omo mi sha nie. The reason I respond to you though is my defense of Islam while you try hard to malign it: No place in Qur'an is Christianity honored as "intelligent People" as you wanted to lead us believe yesterday!

If you're the only ignorant muslim on the forum, others have seen it several times, which would make it unnecessary to prove the fact.

I think the answer you seek has been given already - Muhammad is simply not in the Bible.  It does not mean that Biblical prophecies do not cover the events of prophets rising here and there between times in history: but when it comes to its fundamental contents of the redemption of humanity and the divine judgement attending upon the wicked, the Bible does not miss them out at all. If one were to assume that every single prophet should be mentioned by name, how many such prophets down through history would you suppose it should have named through all the religions of the world?

Pastor AIO:
I don't disagree with Kunle. Okay, perhaps I don't agree either, but what I believe I see is a guy pursuing an honest enquiry. I'm not comfortable with everyone ganging up on him. He has raised numerous points over the last few months that haven't properly been addressed by those on this thread that are trying to bully him.

Great that you don't agree with him. Question is: why? What we need to understand here is that nobody is bullying him - that is just missing the whole point! If someone is proposing an ideology that is antithetical to the fundamentals of his own faith and then passes it off as the veracity of the Christian faith, we want to know how he could rationally justify such a position. And talk about addressing the points he raised, please check and see if he has addressed the concerns attending upon his own postulations.

redsun:
If god is not in the picture,then what are we talking about?we are talking about god for real as an issue,he sets heaven and hell according to religious beliefs.

God is in the picture if we want to "talk" - but that does not seem to be what you started out to do; and that was why I had offered that IF He was not in the picture, then I wanted to see your own logic. The point being that, you have not shown me how you would be totally clear of your accusation against others, if you admit that you sometimes cannot help hurting others.

H2O2:
That's not the point I'm driving at. I wouldn't lump them all under one category because that would be hypocritical of me as well - guess I should have specifically stated "some" . The problem is with agnostics, non-theists, etc who believe their opinions are superior to those of Christian bible thumpers. We are all granted the rights to express ourselves in forms that include religion; they choose science-fiction and others choose their faiths, so whose is superior to whose?

I can understand how you feel about these things; but that would seem to make the point that people are guilty of the same on either side of the divide. How? Just as some agnostics and non-theists have compounded the debate between the supernatural and the natural, so some theists who are ill-informed have only made things worse for themselves by throwing science overboard. It's sad when even some Christians do this - eg., when they say that "science" is a lie and not to be believed; whereas, they misunderstand that science asks a totally different set of questions than we should be asking in investigating the supernatural realities of our world.

H2O2:
And I don't completely agree with your assertion that all they're after are "other ways" to understand these phenomena. How else can you explain the obsession with bashing religion? I know you can't claim they won't understand these phenomena without chastising other people's beliefs.

Well, I appreciate your disagreeing with me on that point; just that I know firsthand some of these folks who have been asking such questions without necessarily seeking to bash religion. Some would even be daring to be that honest in saying that, though the things we present to them are intriguing and actually convincing, they simply do not want to believe. However, for those who bash religion, we know they are not helping themselves - just as some with a religious inclination have not helped the dialogue by reacting in just the same manner to bash "science" or even anyone's worldview. What I think could be more helpful is for people to engage openly and respectably on issues, minus the over-reaction that is all too evident both ways. What do you think?

H2O2:
Yes, we should speak up, listen, but we reserve the right to be respected and have our opinions heard, too. Alas, you're right, their convictions do not change the reality of what the people believe in.

Okay. Let me just add a small observation: if we would draw the respect of anyone, perhaps we would only be able to do so by presenting an enabling atmosphere for our convictions to be taken seriously. It takes time to gain respect; and if we "demand" it forcibly, it may be counter-productive. All the same, I appreciate your points.

Regards.

nanayisha:
I guess it is true that a Leopard can not change its spots.

Perhaps should be because you don't see any spot to change in typing "SHAME" in capital letters at others without qualms.

@redsun,

redsun:
Don't tell me you are comparing me with your all mighty and all merciful god,

No, I'm not telling you that - nor am I telling you anything at all. I have rather chosen to see your own logic as you pull and stretch it to its max. Besides, I clearly said earlier that we should "assume that God is not in the picture for the sake of your argument", so there's no need to be hasty to appeal to be compared to anyone here, least even to God.

redsun:
i can pardon somebody like obasanjo of his deeds,if he repents and atone for his sins by paying back which ever way he can,don't forget he is a mass killer too.

Sir, I also said earlier that "I have not called any names", and Obasanjo definitely was not on my mind. Compared to many godless fellows, perhaps he does not even qualify to be considered here. I wonder why he is always your ready reference when called upon to consider the logic underlying your presumptions.

redsun:
I can never take pleasure in hurting others unless i can't help it,maybe in self defense.

Uhm, what do you mean by "unless" you can't help it? Look dear, let me follow your logic, that's why I only asked for the sake of your own argument to leave God out of the picture. I have not, nor will I, compare you to anyone - least at all "God". Consequently, if you have to "hurt" someone (whatever you argue at all for that), does that not show us your own monstrosity?

Dear Kunle,

Could I point out a few things here in your rejoinder?

KunleOshob:
I ask myself why did i decide to post this thread? the answer is simple, i do not seek to create doubts in any christian's faith what i seek to do is to re-inforce our collective faith through the true gospel of our lord Jesus Christ which is primarily based on love then followed by salvation. Whilst the bible contains the truth about the gospel of christ it also contains a lot that are not of him(that was why he was always quarelling with the pharisees and saducees who were more into indoctrination). The bible is voluminous and it has and is still being used to confuse people on a daily basis. Preachers quote it out of context and find irrelevant scriptures to our christian living from it to confuse us and keep us under their control.

First, any part that you quote from Scripture for any pointer to your faith, only means that you are quoting the Word of God. If you are to sustain that the Bible contains truth "about" the Gospel of Christ and also contains a lot that are not of Him, you no longer have the Christian faith before you. "ALL Scripture" was inspired by the Holy Spirit, and to allege that the Bible contains a lot that are not of Christ is to deny the Spirit who inspired them. Whether we read of the works of the Pharisees and Sadduces in the Bible, it is the same - and you cannot argue that it should not be part of the Bible.

KunleOshob:
I grew up to believe the bible just like every other chrisitan, i then gave my life and discovered christ, his spirit and his true gospel. I wanted to know more and i studied the bible. To understand the bible better i studied bible history and origins. i also studied about early christianity. i zeroed in on the gospel of christ and the holy spirit revealed his truth to me which i would like to share with others, but the people that call themselves christians would be the first to attack me with insultive words (very unchrist like).

Hang on a minute or two: no one is going to attack you for sharing your convictions. If the brethren have to correct some of the unsound principles you espouse, does that translate into "attack"? Besides, your worry about being insulted does not hold water here: in the recent past you have been gleeful at doing precisely that very thing at others on the basis of your disagreement with what they teach. Was that "Christlike" of you?

KunleOshob:
To all my brethen out their even if you attempt to defend the sacrosanctity of the bible you can NEVER defend christ cause he is able to to do all things withou any body's help.

I'm sure that I'm not the only one who has recognized that the Christian was never called to defend Christ or God (though some would try to do so). However, we are called to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered unto the saints (Jude 3).

KunleOshob:
My persuasion to share this word with others is cause of all the confusion which we have in the christian world today, over 30,000 different denominatons all preaching varied doctrine from the use of the same source. Is that not confusion? is that the faith christ inspired?

Lol, I think you're getting it wrong. The sectarian spirit that is manifest today in Christendom is not a new thing - it was prophesied of by the apostles as coming both from within and outside the Church (Acts 20:29-30). However, because God is not the author of confusion, such a phenomenon does not faze me nor should any true believer be fazed by such. Outside Christianity, men are known to have argued and actually been divided on so many things: sports, politics, economic forecasts, evolutionary biology, religion, culture, and even domestic issues. While the division is decried as deplorable in the Church, we should never be taken by surprise about these things, for man's nature is always to be divisive on anything commited to his trust.

KunleOshob:
The most upsetting thing is that the most important lesson christ lived, shared and taught us (Love and humility) is not even being practised or encouraged by most churches. indoctrination and word of mere men as taken precedence over the true Gospel and today people are going o church for the wrong selfish and self righteuos reasons. the real essence of the church as been lost over the centuries and we don't realize it. My fellow brethen beleive it or not the church as seriously strayed from the church established by christ and our salvation is not in the church neither is it in the bible but it is in our hearts were the holy spirit recides.

One's salvation does not negate the fact that a believer needs to depend on the written Word for spiritual growth. The apostle Peter tells us that we should seek the sincere milk of the Word that we may grow thereby (1 Peter 2:2). Guess what - he also recognized the fact that the Gospel was written long before you and I were born, and pious men as well angels long to "look into" the things that appertain to our salvation (1 Peter 1:10-12). While salvation is received in the heart, the saved person has to subject his heart to the written Word of God if spiritual growth would be his or hers. Doodling with the written Word is surely a sign of a rebellious spirit waiting to manifest (Psa. 50:17-18).

KunleOshob:
I do not suggest to or encourage any one to this-card the bible i read it daily and i profit from it myself. What i am saying is that we should allow the spirit of christ discern for us when we read it because we have been warned that that men would present their words as the word of God thee hundred years before the bible existed.

I wonder why you even bother to read the Bible after alleging by rote that it has 300,000 errors. The easiest way to walk by the Spirit of God is to ask Him to show you if indeed His Word holds 300,000 errors when you open it to read - let Him answer and confirm the case to you with a clear and loud "yes". But if He does not say so, don't you think something is seriously wrong with the position you have occupied in this ideology?

KunleOshob:
1 John 4
1 Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world.

Matthew 15:9:

9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

The highlighted scripture were written at least three hundred years before the bible was compiled, in effect it warns us to be wary and test whatever we are told ( old we read) to see if the spirit comes from God. I rest my case.

You know, those scriptures penned before you quoted them are the very ones that should help you re-think your argument. It makes a lot of sense that someone who doubts the veracity of Scripture should have no business quoting from any part of it to rest his case upon (Psa. 50:16).

Shalom.

redsun:
What kind of god will make people languish in hell fire for eternity without mercy?that is monstrous for any standard.If he is all merciful god,why should he at anytime be unmerciful?Just curious.

Let us assume that God is not in the picture for the sake of your argument - we don't need to appeal to His mercy or love, or even His judgement of wicked men.

Now, turn for a moment and tell us what you would do to men who do not claim a religious affirmation and deliberately go out to murder people, and they never stop doing so till their very last breathe. I have not called any names (would do so if asked). But when such a man is brought before you redsun, what would you do?

@sleekymag,

sleekymag:
It's good to know what state our heart is whenever we go through the scriptures. What do we seek whenever we study the word?

To learn more with meekness of heart? To find points to prove others with contrary opinions wrong? To continually seek more points to discredit the church and its doctrines? For personal spiritual growth? For intellectual prowess? To prove our debating knowledge & skills on this forum?

Hmm, God has had to deal with me with regards to those highlighted parts. . quite humbling. Thanks for bringing them back to mind - the lessons are still fresh in my heart.

We need to understand this whenever we seek points to use in helping our posts on this thread, and if indeed we want to spread the truth from the word.

sleekymag:
@ Pilgrim.1,
Hi, long time no hear. Well done with your posts on this section on nairaland. I keep reading them, even though am not to active in posting. Without you, i wonder how many of the contrary opinions would have led some astray. I'm always refreshed and learning the word more, courtesy of your posts. Please keep it up.

Well, I'm doing okay, my bros. Busy, no doubt. . . but finding time inbetween. I didn't forget the questioons you raised in your thread about how to read the Bible, though - in due course I shall return to post more.

However, I should rather be thanking you guys for being there when I most needed you to be. The questions and critique of my inputs have all done me so much good that I've had to constantly go back and re-echeck them several times over. Even the way you called my attention to what I may not have carefully considered in the tithes thread - that was super and has refreshed me many times. May God fill you all with even more grace - to help not only me, but also to bless yourselves with His wisdom and others who need people like you to call us to the ways of His grace.

Regards.

@Jesoul,

JeSoul:
Pilgrim,
I've been wondering oh my sista. To me both cannot be reconciled. You either believe all of it or none of it. We are not afforded the false luxury of choosing which parts to believe or which parts we think are applicable for us today. And I'm bewildered as to how brotha kunle cannot see this is an oxymoron.

Lol, sis. . . I'm always blown away with your diction! The way you craft your message in few words and directly to the point, that is some wisdom I have been praying would rub off on me from you! True about that 'false luxury'. .lol. We just pray that dear Kunle would calm down and have a rethink on this matter.

Cheers.

KunleOshob:
When a thread degenerates to personal insults as a result of fustration or substance to post i think it is time to opt out of that thread.

You don't have to feel anyone is insulting you. If you do, think about those whom you were gleeful to insult previously simply because you don't want to tithe.

@Jesoul,

JeSoul:
So do tell us how do you know 2 Corinthians 3:3 is not a verse that was written out of the bias of a man?
how do you know that that is one of the "true" and "correct" verses?
How do you know this is not one of those verses that you need to take a "pinch of salt with"?

There is a term which people have used to describe this kind of problem: syncretism.

The issue with syncretism is that, its proponents do not necessarily declare openly that they do not trust the Bible - for they appeal to it "publicly" while on the other hand distrust it so that no one really knows where they stand. Don't get me wrong - they "say" that they cling unto Christ in all things and will adhere only to His Word. But bring the Bible and begin to open its pages for the Word of Christ, and they will ask you to close it immediately. Whereas this is always the case, they use Biblical terminologies, talk about love for Jesus, as well draw verses from the same Bible to debate their ideology; etc. But on closer look, they do not trust the Biblical message or the apostleship of the ministers of the NT.

Now, the above is not to say that I direct syncretism as a malady to KunleOshob. . at best, it seems that is where he had begun to be inclined while still alleging that others are "ignorant". We are thankful. All the same, if one cannot trust the Bible and only believes that God's Word is written on our hearts, is it not hypocritical for such people to appeal to the same Bible when arguing a case?

If God's Word is written on our hearts (as surely as is the case), one wonders: why even read the Bible? I have asked myself that question, and this is what I can confirm the Spirit of God lays upon my heart:

   ■  Prophecy
       God gave us His Word in written form that we may know for a certainty that
       His prophecies are true. If we never had the divine prophecies in the Word,
       then how shall we know that Jesus is actually the One who fulfilled them?
       This is why many cults have risen up denying the written prophecies in God's
       Word and have sought other things. If anything at all, without the written
       Word in Scripture, I would have no defence against the Mormon doctrine
       that refers to Jesus Christ as the brother of Lucifer!

   ■  Doctrine
       Doctrine is also give to us in written book form. They may have had to wait
       for a time to be collated as Scripture in a single volume in God's providence;
       but that does not mean therefore that believers were clueless about God's
       Ways and Word. It is for this reason that the Lord Jesus emphatically says:
       "It is written". . . "it is written". He was warning us against this very bane
       that derogates the written Word; and I've observed many times that those
       who fall into this error never hear what He said: Scripture cannot be broken!

   ■  Spiritual Growth
       Everytime God speaks to His people, He often turns them back to His Word -
       the very Word He inspired to be written. That is what He recommended to
       such men as Joshua, David and all Israel's Kings, and even to believers in
       our time! Paul points to this in Romans 15:4 in stating that whatsoever things
       were written aforetime, were written for our learning so that through patience
       and comfort of the Scriptures we might have hope.

  ■  Its Power
      We all know how the devil hates to hear this statement: "It is written!"
      Without question, it is the very thing that he seeks to rob believers of today -
      the written Word of God. Not that he seeks to deny that God has written His
      laws on our hearts; but more than that, the devil is seeking to break a true
      believer's convictions on the Word of God - the written Word of God. The Word
      in written form is like a covenant: that is the very foundation of the efficacy of
      Christ's redemptive sacrifice for us. We hear Him saying in Heb. 10:7 -
      "Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,)
       to do thy will, O God."  If it was not written, we would all be in trouble! That
       is why we should understand something fundamental here: when we are at
       liberty to treat the written Word with disdain, the devil laughs and is happy
       to know he already has victims! This is why we have the warning in the Word
       written in Book form: people be careful about this issue, or by arguing this
       way, some are taken by the devil to do his will (2 Tim. 2:25-26).

May God help us to value what He has given us.

It is well. We hold you constantly in our prayers - you and your family are blessed in Jesus' Name.