₦airaland Forum

gamechange:
Would like your thoughts.

Religion is not your problem, as there are many factors for division in any nation on earth. Yes, indeed people can be deeply divided over religious issues; but if there were no religion in Nigeria, would the division melt away into perfect unity? True?

Think again: Nigerians are a wonderful group of people - and I'm proud to identify myself as a Nigerian anywhere and anyday. However, our division are not perculiar to us, because there are other groups of people who are divided among themselves as well without religion playing a major factor. With the Nigerian case, we observe indeed that political divisions have led to the same problems we are experiencing. Ethnic divisions as well are still very much with us today - we may all go about with cordial acknowledgements of one another; but in national issues, would the Igbos, Yorubas and Hausas walk away from a round-table discussion all smiling and shaking hands?

No, it's not my aim here to remind us of our painful divisions - but just a few pointers to note that religion, my dear, is not the presage of the state of affairs in your observation.

Cheers.

@topic:

I found these replies helpful -

1. Not every sin brings eternal damnation

2. Just so that we don't misunderstand

3. You don't want to know how to sin against the holy Spirit

4. If a man steals a sweet and another commits adultery

Of course, there are some very good answers by others there as well. In a similar thread, naijacutee has some very sensible talk to share.

Cheers.

james1:
Now to your question;Jesus is not God and has never claimed to be.the bible is loaded with proofs of this vital and indispensable fact.

But you have a problem about Jesus being the Son of God, then?

@MC Usman,

I don't think it's a sign of maturity for you to crawl over here to whip up these antics. It is not as if your own religion has all the answers you seek - so what is all this restlessness that you guys exhibit on Christian matters?

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
My dear i believe apostle Paul already answered your question in the book of Galatians

Lol, I didn't ask for the apostle Paul's answer - I know what he said. I addressed that question directly to you, and I'm still waiting for an answer. If you don't know, I would be glad to help. 

Again:

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg2951496#msg2951496 date=1224173599]Now, my question: dear Kunle, what do you think: did the apostles overthrow the whole law or they taught certain doctrines for the Christian life directly from the LAW?[/quote]A simple, straight forward answer stating what exactly you believe is the case, would be appreciated. Many thanks.

Lol. . @KunleOshob,

1.[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=61492.msg2763197#msg2763197 date=1220706907][quote author=~Lady~ link=topic=61492.msg2739270#msg2739270 date=1220295681]Apsotle Paul already stated that the woman is not to be a Pastor.[/quote]I'm quite interested in reading where apostle Paul actually "stated" the above. Do you have a direct verse where he "stated" it so? [/quote]

KunleOshob:
Passage 1 Corinthians 14:34-35:

Passage 1 Timothy 2:11-12:

I know after reading this pilgrim.1 would still not agree, as she as developed her own unique way of interpreting the bible

Dear Kunle, you can see that the verses you quoted did not say that a woman cannot be a pastor - Paul never said so anywhere in those verses, nor is it said anywhere in the NT. When people quote those verses and use them against the concept of women being pastors, it is because they are too driven with inherited traditions of their own fancies and not what the texts teach.

I have discussed this matter extensively in the past and would not like to repeat myself here. The one thing that amazes me is that those who shout a discordant note have not been able up until now to open the Scriptures and show where they find the fancies they postulate. . . nevermind that they have not been able to show where, how, or why my highlights and references may be mistaken. I'm not claiming to be an authority on anything; but as we all reason along, I'm wondering if mere assertions and humanistic traditions are the best that many of us Christians in our day can propagate? Why is it that we feel threatened as Christians when called upon to open the Word and prayerfully study what it actually says?

Besides the many points I raised in this threads and the questions which no one has answered (other than come back with unnecessary noise and dismissals out of hand), here are a few links that will help you see the difference between the various types of leaders in the Body of Christ:

             https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61492.288.html#msg1277728

             https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61492.288.html#msg1278020

             https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61492.288.html#msg1278591

             https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61492.288.html#msg1280145

             https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61492.288.html#msg1280160

Particularly the last two will help answer your enquiries in this case:

             1. Does the Scripture not forbid women teaching in Church?

             2. What about usurping authority over the man?

I hope you find them helpful; and if not, please give me a shout back and let's talk.

Bless you.

Let me share just a little point that may help in this matter of understanding the Law, and then I would like to ask you a simple question following that.

Now, if the apostles were categorical in wanting to let us know that something in the Law is no longer effective for the Christian, I'm sure they stated that in no uncertain terms. Take circumcision, for instance: where the apostles wanted us to know for definite that its ceremonial rites are not to be observed by the Christian, they said so plainly:

          1 Corinthians 7:19

          Circumcision is nothing,
          and uncircumcision is nothing,
          but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Nowhere would anyone find the same thing said about tithes! It is very important that we make our inferences based on what Scripture says plainly, even when we may make exegetical conclusions, and not be forcing any text to say what they did not say. Where indeed do we find any apostle making statements about the tithes as they did for circumcision? Do you know why you will not find them attacking tithes the way many people have done so? Simple: because they do not teach that the Law was all about tithes or circumcision - they kept each matter in their rightful context; and if they meant to let us know that tithes, like circumcision, were "nothing", they would have said so plainly. But is that what they taught? We know that is not so.

Now, my question: dear Kunle, what do you think: did the apostles overthrow the whole law or they taught certain doctrines for the Christian life directly from the LAW?

@Kunle,

KunleOshob:
The law being refered to in verse 12 was obviously the law of tithes, if you read back to verse 5 you would observe that the law of tithes was mentioned before going to verse 12 to anull it.

I'm sorry to observe that as far as I know, there is no such thing in that chapter as "the law of tithes". Rather, tithes were including in the commandments of the Law received under the Levitical priesthood (verse 5), but the Law itself does not mean that it was particularly made for "tithes". That is why verse 5 reads that the Levites "have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law"; and the difference to note is that we cannot make the whole Law a matter of tithes, whereas there is "a commandment" within the Law for the levites to take tithes of their brethren.

A second thing I've often offered is that my convictions for tithing are not predicated upon the Levitical priesthood, but rather upon the priesthood of Melchizedek - by which Hebrews 7:8 makes clearly that: “[in the case of Melchizedek], they are received by one of whom it is testified that he lives [perpetually]” (AMP). If the Melchizedek priesthood is no longer effective or has also been changed like the Levitical priesthood, then there would be no basis at all for Hebrews 7:8, would there?

Pastor AIO:
Please people, what is your opinion?

Well, maybe interesting in some ways. . . but I don't think that the following gives us a good understanding of Logos as used in the Bible:

In order to be rational, to conform to Logos, human beings must change their reactions to what they wrong perceive to "unjust" things or events, since all things are actually "just," insofar as they are from God and are God.

"All things" are not God - that's pantheism and not Christian theism.

Backslider:
@pilgrim

READ JUDGES CHAPTER 4 and 5 Very well

I did - what is your point?

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
Hebrews 7: 12 makes it crystal clear that the tithing is not only redundant, it goes further to describe it as a weak and uselesss practise in verse 18

Dear Kunle, you are only assuming that Hebrews 7:12 is making tithing redundant - whereas it does not say so. What Hebrews 7:12 says is this:

For the priesthood being changed,
there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

It does not say that TITHES have been made redundant - and you can see that it was the Law of the Levitical priesthood that is changed, and not the priesthood of Melchizedek.

I have often said that my persuasion to tithe is not based on the Levitical priesthood. You need to understand what you argue and not force your presumption into the text. The Levitical priesthood being changed, there also is a need for the Law thereto to be changed (Heb. 7:12) - why? Because it was under the Levitical priesthood that the people received that Law (verse 11). You cannot use verse 12 to force your redundancy into Hebrews where it is clear that is not what is stated there.

This is why after severally noting that NT tithers are not living by the old covenant of the Levitical priesthood, I went on to state that my persuasion for tithing is based on the priesthood of MELCHIZEDEK! What Heb. 7:12 states is that the Levitical priesthood being changed will also affect the Law that came along with it (v. 11). YET, that does not mean that the Levitical priesthood originated the precept of tithing.

(5) My persuasions for Tithing derive from its relevance in the NT

●  Many people who are opposed to tithing are too quick to assume that it has been made “redundant” in the NT. Truth is, there is not a single place in the NT where it is stated so – and these brethren only make these assertions based on personal disaffection thereto. For me, in all references to tithes in the NT, not a single one of them leads to the idea that it was either made redundant or condemned by the Lord Jesus Christ or the apostles. Not one. Such references as Matt. 23:23 and Luke 11:42 & 18:12 are not condemning tithes, but rather the hypocrisies of the Pharisees that the Lord addressed. Others are persauded that since He was speaking to them under the old covenant at that time, His statement there is no longer applicable to us as Christians. My simple question to that attitude is this: Are these folks saying that “judgment, mercy, and faith” in that verse are also redundant? If not, why make the other part of the Lord’s statement “redundant”? The word of the Lord is clear and lucid: ‘These ought ye to have done, and not to leave the others undone’ – and to make one redundant while embracing the others is to fall into the same hypocrisy that was discountenanced by the Lord in those texts.


(6) My persuasions for Tithing are based on the test of Stewardship

●  It is an undeniable truth that everything we own belongs to God Himself. “The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts” (Haggai 2:8 ); and how I handle what belongs to Him will show just how faithful a steward I am in what He gives me. If it is required in stewards that a man be found faithful (1 Cor. 4:2), how much more in matters that test my heart and faith thereto (Luke 16:10-12)? Regularly setting aside my tithes (“in proportion to” what God gives me – 1 Cor. 16:2, AMP) is the test of my stewardship that recognizes that God truly is Owner of all the ‘silver and gold’ committed to my trust. This is radically different from the idea of “just give”, because that in no way suggests commitment, regularity, stewardship and faithfulness; rather, it often projects the idea that one may give niggardly without any commitment thereto.


(7) My persuasions for Tithing express my freedom

Contrary to what many people argue for disavowing tithes, it has been my personal choice to tithe in as much as I understand that no one is forcing, manipulating, cajoling, compelling, wheedling, inveigling, or swaggering me to do so. I would not tithe if I did not understand or be persauded about what it means to me as a Christian to do so by –

recognizing the priesthood of Melchizedek
following Abraham’s example
acknowledging God’s divine ownership over all
obeying what the Lord ordained
acknowledging that it was never once condemned in the NT.

Most of the arguments against tithes have been beased merely on fausse patte sentiments of those opposing this ministry; they assume that tithing “binds” Christians with a very “dangerous” yoke, and those preaching tithes in the Church are “enforcing” a rigid law upon us. On the contrary, I chose to tithe happily in the freedom of my faith and stewardship to the Lordship of Christ over my life. Indeed, my tithes express what I have “purposed in my heart” (2 Corinthians 9 .7), and not what any arguments project to my head.


(8) Tithes – Not Condemned in the New Testament

For many people who assume that there is not one verse in the NT commanding tithes specifically, that is no reason for them to condemn this ministry: in just the same way, there is not a single verse condemning tithes in the entire NT – NOT ONE! I would urge these lovely folks to go back and see that the NT apostles did not condemn the principles enunciated in the LAW on this matter when teaching in the NT. There is a difference between living by the Old Covenant Law (OCL) and learning from the Old Testament Scriptures (OTS). The apostle Paul noted that ”whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope” (Rom. 15:4). The same apostle uses the divine principles of the Law of Moses in teaching about NT giving – “For it is written in the law of Moses, . . . Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written. . .” (1 Cor. 9:9 & 10). The point here is that the NT uses divine principles in the OT to speak to us on so many matters – and people who are often in a haste to overthrow the Law should be careful what they propose. I shall take up this very issue consequently.


From the above few reasons (by no means the only ones) for my persuasions about tithing, one thing is clear: the arguments against tithing have made up from a sort of fausse-braie (‘false pitch’) sentimentality, by which opposers to tithes assume that every tither is living “dangerously” on the old covenant of the Levitical priesthood – whereas they have not given just enough attention to reason along what tithers are saying. I shall be gald to enunciate further why I’m persuaded that there is a case for NT Christians to tithe voluntarily, and the revelations concerning this wonderful ministry in the new covenant.

Cheers all. 

Let me now share a few reasons as to my persuasions for tithing.

(1) My persuasions for Tithing are not predicated on the Law

● Many people sadly cannot see anything other than the Law when “tithes” are mentioned. We have discussed the example of Abraham many times over to show that he was not under the Law when he tithed to Melchizedek – and the question that is still unanswered is: ‘what moved Abraham to give tithes to Melchizedek?’ Rather than proffer a simple answer, all we have read are excuses from those who see no reason at all to tithe. I have also given reasons why references to the Law are made in seeking to understand the meaning of tithes: simply as a matter of “principles” and not a legalistic application of the old covenant.


(2) My persuasions for Tithing are based on the priesthood of Melchizedek

● Another point to note is that those Christians who tithe are not predicating their tithes on the Levitical priesthood, but rather on the priesthood of Melchizedek. We have seen that inspite of the excuses people make for Hebrews 7:8, the simple declaration there is that our tithes are received by Him of whom it is witnessed that He lives (see the AMP version that highlights the case lucidly – “while there [in the case of Melchizedek], they are received by one of whom it is testified that he lives[b] [[b]perpetually]”). Also, I earlier made the case clear enough as to what the implications of the Melchizedek priesthood are in this regard; and when I tithe, I’m demonstrating my recognition of the priesthood of our Saviour after the order of Melchizedek (Heb. 5:6; 6:20 &7:17). This is where the mystery of tithing comes in – for without any Law, commandments or ordinances, Abraham saw something in his day that we often take for granted today. People need to carefully consider this: what made the patriarch offer tithes to the priest of the Most High God? How is it that his “one-off” tithes affected even his progeny (Levi) who were not even yet born at the time? I shall come back to expound on this later.


(3) My persuasions for Tithing derive from what the Lord Jesus ordained

● Having discussed this point earlier, I had hoped that anyone opposed thereto would have gone back to the Word and shown what infact the apostle was quoting when he referred to ‘the temple’ and ‘the altar’ in 1 Cor. 9:13, and then drew the inference in verse 14 with these words: “EVEN SO. .” One may ask: “Even so”. . what? Was it not that he was showing the precise principle from the OT scripture he had referred to in verse 13? At least, no one has come back to argue that the Lord never ordained anything in that verse – for verse 14 categorically says: “Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.” Even though He ordained it, He did not make it mandatory for any Christian (see verse 15).


(4) My persuasions for Tithing are derived from Abraham’s example

● There’s hardly anyone who would be confused as to the principle of Abraham’s life being faith – and that is the precedence set for us in the Word (see Galatians 3:7 – “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham”). Further, it is interesting that the Lord Jesus made an arresting statement in John 8:39 – “If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham”. Rather than keep arguing and making excuses for why one cannot follow the “one-off” tithes of Abraham. . blah-blah, my premise is to simply follow the patriarch’s example and willingly give my tithes – not under the Law, not under the old covenant, not under any compulsion, and definitely not under any excuses. Rather, my tithing is simply by Abraham’s example of faith that moved him to tithe. It is remarkable that even those who oppose the principle of tithing cannot deny this matter, but even as TV01 said: “Abrahams faith is the only pointer for NT Christians”. If they gladly acknowledge that, what is the quarrelling about Christians who tithe by faith?

@TV01,

TV01:
I will now briefly outline my views on NT Christian giving;

1. There are only two reasons to give, the first predicated on need and the second based on a desire to bless and honour God. One may say worship, no problem!

How is it that you’re applauding what you just stated above in #9 that you see no examples for? Are we now to take it that it is okay for you to embrace what you see no examples for, while it is not okay for others to tithe because you don’t see the same thing in the NT? I don’t mean to put you on spot; but it seems that there’s a strabismus here for the predilection given to the one case over against the other.

TV01:
2. However, both reasons are valid worship responses, especially when motivated by a good and cheerful heart. Living out life to do His will, through His power, under His grace and to His glory, means every act is one of worship.

Okay, at least now you’ve come home so close to admitting what you once disenfranchised! Well done, bro. I shall not be tedious to you any further – until later as needs be.

But just one more thing:

TV01:
10. There is no hidden mystery to giving.

You are only assuming it so, rather than making a concrete statement of fact. There is a mystery to giving, and the attitude to pretend otherwise is what makes people treat this matter with blithe carelessness and nonchalance.

Cheers and many blessings.

@TV01,

While appreciating your summary yet again, it is not in my place to judge anything you’ve posted, although you earlier gave the same rundown of your persuasions about tithes; other than that, a few comments thereto that might be helpful, and then my discussions will follow by contrast. The one reason why I would do so is not to put you on spot, but rather to help you take care of your huge mistake of endlessly repeating and harping on what nobody is assuming – and then using those same *fausse patte to address the position of those who tithe.

TV01:
1.Tithing is not mandatory, but it is permissable - and like most opponents, my opposition is to those that would make it mandatory for Christians and warp scripture to do so - not tithing per se.

2. I believe that in the fullness of NT living, it is redundant and with time one would see that. But why and who can force understanding on people who do not yet see that? Hence, Christian liberty.

I wonder if you’ve helped yourself and others here by making something that is “redundant” to be “permissible” at the same time. It seems to be both disavowing something and at the same time admitting to it!

The reason why many people hold this idea of tithing being redundant and yet claim it to be Christian liberty is because they often see only ‘the Law’, and nothing else – inspite of the fact that some tithers have demonstrated that their persuasion to tithe is not predicated upon the Law. If it helps, it is just about time to drop that mentality and be more at liberty to listen to what others are saying. If not, it is predictable that the Law is the only thing that occupies the minds of those opposed to tithing – which is why you would have predicatably made this subsequent insinuation:

TV01:
3. It cannot be justified/enforced under the law and the prophets or based on something else and then enforced by same.

Any wonder why I said above that you see nothing else apart from the Law? It so happens that it does not appear you have been really reading what we are saying – despite the many times it has been said that: (a) we do not base our discussion of tithe on the Law of the old covenant; and (b) I have also shared the reasons why we even quote the OT in seeking the meaning of tithes. Our persuasion about tithes is not based on the old covenant, but rather on the basis of the new covenant – and it does not help for people to just assume that we have been trying to “enforce” anything under the Law, whereas no one has been enforcing anything on you or others. This is actually a poor attitude to reasoning with people – although I respect the fact that they are just your musings, they go a long way to help us to see just what you think regardless of how many times people point these things out to you.

TV01:
4. Abrahams sole instance was/is not a pattern or ordinance. Abrahams faith is the only pointer for NT Christians.

Good, then let others who are persuaded to tithe simply follow the same pointer of faith as Abraham showed in tithing. You cannot be claiming a “Christian liberty” for the same thing you are disavowing as “redundant”. Who made it redundant, if all you have to show for this is a mere humanistic assertion? To be honest with you, there is not a single verse in the NT that says tithes have been made redundant, or even condemned in the manner that most opposers are wont to condemn it! If Abraham’s faith is “the only pointer”, why is it such a difficult thing to please leave Christians who tithe to follow that same pointer? It is not even as if Abraham offered any type of “Christian giving” we scream endlessly on this thread, other than his tithes to Melchizedek. So, why not simply appreciate Christian tithers who follow

TV01:
5. Tithing confers no distinct or unique blessings over one who simply gives - whatever amount/frequency - with the right posture.

6. I don't actually agree that God is obliged to respond to our giving in any form on the basis of some set pattern or return.

7. I don't believe that God ranks giving or distinguishes giving types or gifts/offerings and then responds accordingly.

No worries – those are your persuasions: appreciated only as such, and they have no bearing on what we have shared so many times.

TV01:
8. NT giving is predicated on need, also noting;

9. the offering/worship element - #1459 - but in the NT dispensation I see no real examples of that, although I stand to be corrected.

10. Following on from 8 & 9, I'D be really interested to hear how one would worship God directly with any physical gift in this dispensation. New thread?

If you’re proposing a new thread for #10, no worries – here or there, we shall share all the same and even offer pointers to #8 & #9 if need be.

_____________________________________

*fausse patte – french cliché for ‘false leg’.

3. Jehovah Witnesses

         From an authorized site of the JW:

        How are you funded?

        Primarily by voluntary donations from Jehovah's Witnesses.
        No collections are taken at our meetings, and members are
        not required to tithe. Clearly marked contribution boxes are
        provided in all meeting places for voluntary donations, which
        remain anonymous. Expenses are manageable, as there are
        no paid clergy and the meeting places are modest.
        Donations forwarded to the nearest branch office of Jehovah's
        Witnesses are used for disaster relief, support for missionaries
        and traveling ministers, construction of houses of worship,
        and the printing and shipping of Bibles and Christian publications.
        It is a personal decision to donate, whether toward local expenses,
        worldwide expenses, or both. Financial reports are regularly given
        for the information of the entire congregation.
       

4. Lutheran Church

        From The Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod:

        Q. What is the LCMS position concerning tithing?
        Is it required?
        Is there anything wrong with teaching the concept of tithing?

        A.
                In the New Testament, tithing is not mentioned nearly as much,
                but such expressions as cheerful, firstfruit, and proportionate
                are used repeatedly. This leads us to conclude that while tithing
                may be a good spiritual discipline and a good starting point for
                a mature Christian, it may not be the best way to present biblical
                giving since it can easily become a legalistic requirement of the law
                rather than a cheerful offering motivated by the love of God shown
                toward us in Christ.

                Therefore, in the second of the eight Biblical Stewardship Principles,
                we maintain that God's stewards are managers, not owners.
                This means that God's stewards have been entrusted with life and life's
                resources and given the privilege of responsibly and joyfully managing
                them for Him. Thus, as children of God through faith in Jesus Christ,
                and with the Holy Spirit's help, we will encourage cheerful, firstfruit,
                proportionate (including but not limited to tithing) living and giving
                in all areas of life by Christian stewards.
   

              From Lutheran Church of the Resurrection:

              God's Word and the sacraments.
              Together, we share in ministry through prayer, tithes and offerings,
              and all that God gives to us through the community of the church.

_______________________________________

5. Assemblies of God Church

             From Bethel Assembly of God

             Tithing Statement

             The Assemblies of God has always been a proponent of tithing
             (or giving one-tenth of one’s personal income to support the work of God).
             We believe tithing is a recognition that everything we have comes
             from God. The practice checks our greed, promotes personal discipline
             and thrift, testifies to our faith, promotes God’s work in the world,
             and alleviates human need. While we do not believe tithing to be
             a condition for salvation, we do believe it is a very important biblical model,
             one which should set the minimal standard for Christian giving for people
             in all income ranges.Though some people believe tithing was
             an Old Testament practice not intended for New Testament Christians,
             we believe and teach that tithing is still God’s design for supporting
             the ministry and reaching the world with the gospel. It is true there
             is no direct commandment in the New Testament saying, “You must
             tithe to God one-tenth of your income”; but there is also no statement
             declaring the Old Testament plan as no longer valid.

             (also found on this site)



As we can see from all the examples above, most of the people we assume to be non-tithers are infact tithers. But what would this indicate? Are these all peddling ‘false doctrines’ and heading down the road to HELL as some opposers of tithe believe?  These matters will be considered in ernest after my repost to  your penultimate entry.

@TV01,

TV01:
Why don't Catholics, Anglicans, JW or others pay tithe

Here are a few answers to consider about whether or not those Christian denominations pay tithes.

Christian Denominations on Tithing

Disclaimer!! Please note that these are merely representations of some large denominations, and views expressed here do not necessarily mean that adherents of each denominational tradition follow the same rule. For instance, there are many Catholic denominations; and views expressed here may not be taken as standard and applicable for every other Catholic denomination. This also is the case for those who describe themselves as non-denominational. Another thing: that I offer these highlights is not to mean that they represent my persuasions on tithing; rather, they are to be taken as answers to the question: “Why don't Catholics, Anglicans, JW or others pay tithe” – and readers are to see for themselves what the case may be.


1. Catholics

From: Order and Legion of Saint Michael –

Philosophy and Principle of Tithing:
●  Principles and Philosophy of Tithing
●  Four Principles of Tithing
●  The Biblical Basis of Tithing
●  Additional Principles of Tithing

        ____________________________________


From: St. Joseph’s Church (York, Pennsylvania) –

Tithing
●  Tithe Comes from the Bible
●  Today, In Our Time
●  What Is A Tithe?
●  How Does Tithing Work?
●  Are There Benefits to the Person Who Tithes. . ?
●  What Do We Do Now?


Question: do Catholics tithe or not?

It is not in my place to answer that question for them. However, from all considerations, some Catholics tithe,  some others do not but rather give in other manner. There doesn’t seem to be a fast and dry rule in Catholicism to tithe. One reference to this is found here on an online document that takes its references from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994):

            Principles of Giving

            The tithe (10%) as a standard and a promise of blessing,
            given to the spiritual leadership. . .

            Baltimore Catechism on the Six Requirements of Church Membership. .

            297. By the commandment to contribute to the support of the Church
            is meant that each of us is obligated to bear his fair share of the financial
            burden of the holy See, of the diocese and of the parish. .

Certainly, only Catholics themselves can share with us on what exactly their own particular Catholic churches or Catholic denominations teach on this matter.


2. Anglicans

          United Anglican Church – FAQ Online:

           What is the standard of Stewardship?
           The standard of stewardship in the United Anglican Church
           is the Biblical tithe.

          _______________________________________

           Anglican Journal

           Use of Electronic Tithing

_______________________________________

          Anglican Church International Communion:

         ‘Only a voluntary tithe is required.
          If a tithe can not be given it should be noted.’

         _______________________________________

        Archives of the Episcopal Church:

        Title: Affrm the Tithe As the Standard of Giving
        Legislative Action Taken: Concurred As Amended
        Final Text:
        Resolved, the House of Bishops concurring,
        That the tithe be affrmed as the minimum standard of giving
        for Episcopalians; and be it further
        Resolved, That we Deputies and Bishops do hereby
        pledge ourselves to tithe, or to work towards tithing,
        as a minimum standard of our own giving and of our witness
        in the world; and be it further
        Resolved, That we do call all of the Church
        to join us in accepting the biblical tithe as the minimum
        standard of Christian giving.

Dear TV01,

Good afternoon, and thanks for your summaries yet again. I would like to make a few comments thereto; but let me offer help to your earlier posts and enquiries and then come back to your recent reposte.

Let me begin by outlining why I worry about these needless repetitions in yours by highlighting a few things in one of your summations:

TV01:
A true revelation would be bourne out by scripture. Easily, logically, unambiguously, obviously even. After it had been pointed out and it would leave no room for gainsaying. If by sound scholarship, again any postulation would stand on it's own merits, fit well with scripture and not jar with other doctrine.

True, but you already know that the highlighted part of your quote is precisely what some of us have followed in our several entries – particularly in mine, which were given in the links I posted to you earlier. Is there anything I had missed in such elements as:

- bourne out by Scripture?

- Easily?

- Logically?

- Unambiguously?

- Obviously even?

And after I laid issues out precisely as such, I had waited this long before making this reply – and I don't remember anyone coming back to gainsay them, other than those who were opposed to tithing coming back incessantly to argue from personal disaffection that it could not be so; even so, we could not read them following your recommendations as above. When I asked that they calmed down and go directly to Scripture and show that those things which I pointed out were not actually written in those verses, I didn't see them oblige that simple request. Dismissing matters out of hand is easy to do - but it is never easy to go directly into Scripture and show just where, how and why they find grounds for what they argue.

TV01:
And I don't think balance is a big issue here. The discussion has not revolved around "exreme positions". It's the meaning, basis, validity, practicality, use, scriptural narrative, examples, form and many other things that have been chewed on and mulled over on this thread.

The "meaning". . . "basis". . ."validity". . ."practicality". . . "use". . . "scriptural narrative". . ."examples" etc., . . Did I miss any one of those elements in all the links I posted to you earlier?

Even recently, when you posited that: "What hallows it, is the attitude (heart/spiritual sincerity)"; my answer was "What 'hallows' it is not the heart of the giver - it is the value God Himself places on it (Leviticus 27:30 & 32)." If I was wrong, it would have been more appreciated that you went back to Scripture, check out Leviticus 27:30 & 32 and then show me that ‘No, it was not so written in those verses’ as I might have assumed - and then we would have checked it out together. But rather than do so, others who have not settled down to study these matters for themselves only came back being facetious about the whole point.

See, what amazes me in all this is that, just when I see these needless repetitions and teasings making the rounds, I consequently offered that it might be best for me to take a chill at the time - so that if anyone cared enough, they would go back calmly and re-read those issues where I addressed them in some depth. Sadly, just about this turn was when all these remarks are being made about awaiting "this revelation/insight/scholarship piece/teaching" - like I had not even touched them at all! Then what were those links leading to - or were they just blank links that opened blank pages?

The points are clear and do not need endless repetitions. Since last year 2007, I have consistently noted that tithes are not made mandatory for anyone under the new covenant; and people can tithe as they are led by God's Spirit rather than by any arguments. Those who haven't seen this point should not go about slurring tithers as manipulators, thieves, and liars - and that was why I had to post the exact kind of extremum from those who are sending tithers to HELL just because they are opposed thereto (I’ve even read and heard worse from them).

When antagonists called others liars and manipulators, none of your adulators called them to check – we all left them running free with that same slur unchecked. Only now that I’ve shown just one example of an antagonist to tithers is when you’re offering that “the discussion has not revolved around extreme positions”. It’s like all of a sudden, you guys quickly took notice and acquiesced to the same things I and a few others have been pointing out about this matter.

You may complain about ‘balance’ in this discussion; but it seems to me that dismissing matters out of hand without first checking them out is hardly a healthy way of seeking a dialogue. Not once have I noticed that you took the effort to go back to those verses I offered and point out that the things highlighted there were not stated in those references. When we keep repeating these clichés as you did, are we getting anywhere at all – or has this now become a game that often is resorted to when the interest to look into the Word has melted away? If the latter, what then is the point of our even going on at all to discuss anything?

However, I trust that the interest in this matter affects us all in more ways than we can count; and that is why people have continued to show those interests in the many questions, critiques, commentaries, highlights and balance they offer.

Consequently, I shall try and outline some answers to another helpful issue you raised. Cheers.

@sleekmag,

Good afternoon, and I hope your day has turned out brilliantly.

sleekymag:
Sorry to still bother you Pilgrim.1, but I'm still not satisfied with your 1% explanations. Looking critically at Nehemiah 10:38, when we start from verse 37-39, we'll see this:

Having considered this matter of 1% carefully, I should indeed allow for love and understanding to prevail, and thereby not push my own views to overwhelm anyone. Although we all have differing persuasions about this 10%, 1% or any other percentage and we can all share our views on them with clear pointers, I would like to appreciate yours - so we can move forward. This is why I try to maintain that at the end of the day, it is not my views (expressed however so strongly) that should carry the day. Someone has said that we should all be persuaded in our own hearts whatever we finally hold. Advice from other friends offline persuade me to to acquiesce, even though there are many sources that hold the 1% persuasion.

More grace to you, sleekmag. . enjoy.

[center]Revo. . ![/center]

Listen up people: I like revolution! If it defines a change, good one - I'm in 24-7!

But hey, the rev starts with us - not towards anyone, but towards ourselves. WE want a change, not so? Who do we want to change? Them?

That is why I so love the practical observation of QuotaSyste. If we start out and bury our heads in the sand when practical issues are before us, the road will be rough. No, not that I'm that given to tribal loyalties; but while we can all agree to take it easy among ourselves here, we should be aware that outside of this platform, it may not be so practicable to ignore or postpone these issues.

I can afford to wear a green polo and carry a green handbag - infact sef, I'm spotting a green dress and large white collars just now - and that's what I've been wearing all day! Don't know why - I just thought in the UK, it might be cool sometimes to showcase something about the [color=Black]Na[/color]ija in me.

My suggestions in addition to those already made: we need to educate ourselves more than anything else. And I dig the suggestion to expose corrupt lecturers on YouTube - they have our educational wheel in their hands and should be responsible in inculcating sound leadership principles we can all be proud of.

Cheers all.

manmustwac:
Pilgrim1 The point i'm making is that everybody has the right to become a born again even ex yahoo boys and ex muslims. So why can't God accept a man's offerings even though the money he is offering came from what he was doing in the past?

@manmustwac,

Of course, everyone is invited to become born again and it's not in my place to legislate how they become born again. If some people came to the Lord after defrauding others, they know what they can do with such - what about this example in Luke 19:8? Here:

[list]'And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
[/list]

Cheers.

@affee,

". . .and anon they tell Him of her" (Mark 1:30)

Dear, you are healed in Jesus' Name.
Lord Jesus, thank you for this blessing - Your Name is above every illness;
and Your love will fill affee and give strength to every cell of her body. Amen.

It is well with you, affee. . fear not.

@Ovamboland,

Ovamboland:
Please Pilgrim, go ahead and list reasons why you pay tithe today

I shall do so soon: what's the rush?

I know some of the reasons why you guys don't believe in tithing are based on one issue - because of the LAW, not so? If I'm far wrong, please correct me - then I shall come back and share a few matters of the heart with you before i list why I tithe. If there's any other reason why you don't tithe, it may be helpful to list them out as well.

Ovamboland:
Since we now share common ground that all pretentions by todays pastor's refrence especially to Malachi (which is essentially tied to the LAW) is no longer applicable to christians

Before you throw the LAW overboard, please think again. I have repeatedly shared that we should look at the "principles" of the Law, rather than a legalistic application of same Law. In my sharing, I would like to leave out whatever anyone is doing to abuse these matters - rather, my basic concern would be what the Word teaches us, and not the distractions of what men have turned it into. I'm not given to castigating any man - they will answer to the Lord: and so shall we all. I would like to mind my own business and concentrate on what Christ has called us to do, and not go about calling people names.

I hope you commit these matters to heart so we can all share on more healthy and enabling environment.

Bless you always.

KunleOshob:
As christians we have all been called into the ministry of the gospel of Christ, it is our collective duty to spread to gospel to all nations of the earth. When i said i am a minister of God, i did not mean an "ordained" minister. That not withstanding God has revealed himself to me and i feeled compelled to share what i have learnt about the true gospel of our Lord Jesus christ.

Amen again, bro.

KunleOshob:
@Pilgrim.1
I am not an apostle and i am just a humble minister of God sharing the truth about God's word(undiluted) from the scriptures with fellow christians. My calling is to discover and share the true gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ which is no longer being shared in churches today.

Amen, bro.
You know why I always refer to you as 'lovable brother' - u tink say e easy to achieve?

>snip<


^{Lord, help me. . I was just about saying something before I saw the the above!}

KunleOshob:
No such gospel i would have thought all your posts were coming from that "gospel" you have enough posts here based on your ideas of what tithes is and is not to write a whole epistle.

You too funny! Where you see such an epistle? Should sharing ideas (as everyone else is doing - including yourself) then become "an epistle" in themselves? Afterall, no be you write epistle for another page where someone quote the whole book?

This was your confession - "The article you posted was originally written by me". . .

. . and people have to go back and see the full length epistle according to "apostle KunleOshob"!! Na you confess yourself say na you "originally" write am!

Chill bro. . na small-small we go land for de matter. Shalom.

@Gamine,

You dey, abi you no dey?

Gamine:
Are they sure, it isnt [b]M[/b]adame [b]T[/b]aussande stuff

I checked it out from various sources - there was no MT stuff to wayo anything O!

@manmustwac,

manmustwac:
So if he don do yahoo tire chop millions of naira wouldn't God accept his offerings if he became a born again?

Did God tell you that He accepts yahoo millions as offerings?

manmustwac:
You yourself are a born again too your an ex muslim arnt u?

I am, and how does that connect me with yahoo-boys' millions?

@mazaje,

mazaje:
i just want to know why a god that own everything is still in need of gifts from the people he supposedly created

If you had asked a question to invite answers, people will respond - you don't go about slurring other people and then expect them to answer your queries.

If I may answer yet again:

(1) God wasn't asking you to give Him anything. If you have no business giving anything to Him, He has not asked it of you; so I wonder why this matter should be such a problem to you - unless you simply want to demonstrate that you must be necessarily disturbed by matters that are of little concern to you.

(2) When you say (and keep harping on the same thing) that God has "need" of anyone's money, you're making a very grave mistake. I'm sure that this is not the first time people have directly answered that God is not in need of anything from man - and you can see this clealy testified in Psalm 50:12 where He says: "If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof."

(3) So why do people offer anything to Him? Simply to glorify His Name - again, this is not compulsory for those who have chosen not to do so. Psalm 50:14 points it out - "Offer unto God thanksgiving" - and that is the very basic of bringing anything for God's glory.

(4) However, for those who feel that this matter of thanks-giving is not a concern of theirs, and yet they make it their own adventure to keep harping on this issue, there's a simple answer to this in that same Psalm 50 - "But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth?" (verse 16). Since he has not bothered anyone with His covenant except to call those who are interested to share in that blessing, does it make any sense to keep harping restlessly about matters which are of little or no concern of yours? I think reason should be able to simply answer for us.


There are a lot of things that are happening in the world today - we don't have to concern ourselves with them or make ourselves the managers of other people's worldviews. So long as I may not have chosen those perculiarities for them, why then should I make it my business to define for them how they should live their lives? Why should I keep harping at them and seek to often insult them in order to show how "rational" I am whereas it becomes obvious that such rants are only making the person come across as an irrational soul?

I think it makes a lot of sense to live at peace with one's conscience. Of course, I'm not a manager of your life to instruct you to stop insulting others - it's a free world. But what do you personally derive from such an adventure? Doesn't it clearly show how very immature it is for someone to keep pouring out these restlessness when it was not directly addressing youin particular? "I want to know why. . ", yes - you can ask and people will provide answer. But what if I come first and foremost to vilify you and your worldview, would that indicate I am interested in rational dialogue?

Matters for the heart, mazaje. Regards.

Hi again, @sarmy,

sarmy:
@Pilgrim,

Please kindly list out why you tithe in simple terms, I have been blessed by some of your responses so far but yet to really understand your concept of tithing, as for law-based tithing, we already know the truth, no more an issue.

Can you list out 10 or more reasons why you tithe or why christians MAY tithe instead of ordinary giving/offering, please just itemize them for now, no details except bible reference, I'm sure you must have dealt with the details earlier.

If I can get the revelation of the significance under NT, then I can buid my faith accordingly.

Many thanks

That question is a most helpful and pointed one - and if you bear with me, I'll add that to the several things I would like to deal with subsequently. Yes, I ahve highlighted a few of them; and was hoping to open a new thread to share on 'Why I Tithe'; but was advised against it by a few friends. All the same, I'll keep within this thread and give you the 15 reasons why I tithe, and the features that lead me to follow that ministry under the new covenant and not under the stipulations of the old covenant. Can you bear with me to come to hat point soon?

Blessings.

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
@ pilgim.1
i am still waiting for you to tell me the difference betweeen tithes and offerings (according to the gospel of Pilgrim.1) abi you are still praying for revelation on the subject. When i get this answer, i would know how to address your subsequent posts.

Lol, I was going to do so in ernest after we have shared light on the present concerns - one step after the other, remember? But if you're waiting for a "gospel of Pilgrim.1", I am most sorry to disappoint you O! There is no such gospel preached to save your skin or pocket. Shalom.