₦airaland Forum

Amen.

Also: Would You Please Join Me In Praying For Nigeria?

Viable:
WHY MAJORITY OF CHRISTIANS AND AND THEIR LEADERS WILL MISS HEAVEN!

Just be sure you also prepare yourself and not be counted among that "majority". Blessings.

@debolay,

It's so good to read from you and know how Bisi is doing! How refreshing to read the above - and thank you for taking the time out to encourage us with news of how it has been with her. It is well with you and everyone in your family. Jesus is Lord.

I've thoroughly enjoyed the various perspectives shared on this subject - whether for or against.

@Betty605,

Thank you for your continued efforts in this thread. I appreciate your inputs - please keep 'em coming. Blessings.

Why are people disturbing themselves about this thread? The person who was trying to make a cse for 'Obama = antichrist' should have read his own Bible carefully enough.

Proverbs 1:23
Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you,
I will make known my words unto you.

@Chrisbenogor,

So, what’s the difference?

There is a huge difference, for the fact that the Old Testament forms the foundation of so many doctrines in the Christian faith does not make Judaism a continuum into Christianity; nor can they be mixed up as if they were synonymous – for they are not.

For instance, the Old Testament presents God as the Father of His covenant people. But it does not mean that He is ‘Father’ to believers based on the covenant of the old testament; but rather, He is Father to all who worship Him based on the foundation of the new birth by faith in Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God. Yet, both the OT and NT share the same faith and confession that God is ‘FATHER’ (Deuteronomy 32:6 and John 4:23).

Another example:

(a) both the OT and the NT share the same confession as regards:
            –  the nature of man (which is sinful) – Gen. 6:5 and Rom. 3:23
            –  sinful man’s need for redemption – 2 Sam. 7:23 and Rom. 3: 24

However, as you carefully read both the OT and NT, you will find that the basis of redemption in either case is not the same. Redemption under the OT is mainly by the blood of animals or money (see Lev. 25:51-52; Num. 3:48 and compare with 1 Peter 1:18); but in the NT, redemption is by Christ’s blood - Romans 3:24 (see also Eph. 1:7 and Col. 1:14).

One cannot mix issues up like this and wonder if Christians obey the Bible at all. Let me digress for just a bit with an observation and come back to this issue.

[list]Look around you in so many religions and cults of today that claim to have some identity with the Biblical worldview in as much as they point to Jesus Christ in one way or the other – Mormonism, Islam, Grail Message, Arianism, Bahá'ísm, some branch of Hinduism (which regards Jesus as an avatar of God), etc. It is remarkable that while Christianity does not try to “correct” them about how to define their own faiths, the one thing that strikes me is that all these worldviews do their best to “correct” Christians about the Biblical teaching of Jesus Christ! As you may have rightly observed, Christians are open to dialogue: they do not go on rampage when people say unfavourable things against Christ, the Bible, the Church, God, or Christianity. Yet, in Christian apologetics, one should be willing to let Christians define for themselves how they understand their faith in Jesus Christ.[/list]

Now, back to the main gist. When people seek to understand Christianity, the mind should be intelligently open to reasoning based on Christian deixis rather than on any other non-Christian perspective. The confusion for many people arise when they confuse the identities of the people they speak about, such as confusing Christians for Jews; or confusing Judaism for Christianity.

Let me underscore this point further. When anyone mentions the appellation “the Son of God” in respect to Jesus Christ, one immediately thinks of Christianity and Christians. I’ve got news for you. Did you ever wonder that  it is not only Christianity that preaches Jesus as ‘the Son of God’? Bahá'ísm (which was not a Christian faith but rather emerged from Islam) also believes and confesses that Jesus Christ is ‘the Son of God’ – and so do the adherents of the Grail Message. The remarkable thing is that Bahá'ísm will tell you that, while it agrees with both Islam and Judaism, it deeply disagrees on almost everything in Christianity (even though it uses Christian terminology)! When you come across a Bahá'ís and listen for a while, you might easily be taken in and assume you’re listening to a “Christian”!

What then am I trying to say? Simply this: please understand that even though Christians believe in both the OT and NT, they are not Jews under Judaism. This is the mistake many people make and try to force the ceremonies and culture of Jews upon non-Jews and then make everyone who holds the Biblical tenets to necessarily become Jews with a “Christian” tag. In just the same way, even though Bahá'ísm uses Christian terminologies, one should never make the mistake of confusing a Bahá'ís for a ‘Christian’. If you can understand this simple message, the rest should not be tedious to you either. It is because many people often confuse these issues, and that is why they find the wrong grounds for constantly arguing with Christians on the old covenant. Do these people care to also argue these matters with either the Jews, the Bahá'ís, or adherents of the Grail Message who also bend to the Christian confession of Jesus Christ as ‘the Son of God’?

Regards.

@Chrisbenogor,

Chrisbenogor:
Am glad you noticed, how is your new found friend going for you? Hope good. See part of believing what I do(pilgrim says its deist) involves examining other people's beliefs and how close it obtains to reality.

@Chrisbenogor,

Actually, it is deism (rather than ‘deist’, which is the subject noun – just as the ‘theist’ is to ‘theism’). Anyway, just an asides.

I'm glad that you have this enquiring mind - and on many occasions I've both benefitted from such an attitude as well as appreciated your earnest desire to "examine other people's beliefs". The one thing is that if you take a little time to examine what you believe about other people, you may soon realise how far you have been from reality. Let me explain.

Chrisbenogor:
The one thing that has been on christianity's side is that it allows for questions it is open in a sense and hence has evolved into a religion that preaches peace.

Great.

Chrisbenogor:
Islam on the other hand is rigid, look at todays world I mean which God will instruct women to cover themselves all over? Its insane most of their practices are inhumane and devoid of emotions, cutting of hands and legs, seriously sick but that is not to say they are not found in the bible. Thing is christians continually find ways to bend beliefs to fit with reality and I applaud that but the muslims just sit back and hope reality would bend to fit their beliefs and that is not happening anytime soon hence they are always on the alert looking for someone who would question why the sharia law does not sound like a stephen king novel to attack.

Lol, here is something that might help you understand why you're far from reality when you discuss Christianity in relation to Judaism.

The one thing we note is that there are so many worldviews and faiths in the world today; but the mistake that people often make is to try and bend Christians to come under Judaism, just because we believe in the Old Testament. Just because Christians hold the Old Testament as part of the foundation of their faith does not necessarily or by any stretch make them Jews under Judaism. How in the world anyone would assume that the Old Testament makes Christians worshippers under Judaism?

So, when people assume that Christians have had their own “share” of violence based upon the Old Testament, it is merely confusing the identities and mistaking Christians for Jews. Yes indeed, people have gone to war and fought under flags raised with a ‘Christian’ appellation; but should that be taken to suppose that such people were fighting under the stipulations of the New Testament?

Even so, I used to make the mistake you’re making – by forcing the tenets of Judaism upon Christianity and assuming that Christians who try to show the difference are “bending” the rules. Far from it. When someone is not willing to read issues contextually, then how does dialogue for understanding come in? When con[/b]text is denied, the door opens for [b]pre[/b]text – and that is what so many people have been doing in order to confuse these matters for themselves. It is also for this reason I’ve followed the example of others who have made reference to specific terms like [b]exegesis and eisegesis, and also added that we check the deixis of anything we are investigating in matters like this.

donnie:
I'D miss him. Anybody's got somethin to say?

Thank you donnie, for bringing this to our attention. May his godly memory continue to bless many, and the blessing return many fold to his family.

affee:
remember Jesus is Lord and He'll ever stop Loving you

Amen. . Jesus is Lord; and I know He'll [b]n[/b]ever stop Loving me and you!

anonimi:
I believe it might be useful at this time to re-introduce this drama sketch, that covers most of the issues in this tithe fraud that continues unabated in our churches.
------------------------------------------------------------

>snip<

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Credits:
This narration was crafted and adapted from my previous article, Believers are not subject to the Tithe, and from materials put up at http://tithing.christian-things.com/articles.html

Source: The Trial

@anonimi,

I actually had read that article before you reposted it on this forum. Certainly, everyone is free to post whatever; however, I wonder if by doing so here, you're sending a message to readers that Yomi's article represents your thoughts precisely? There are a few issues which I would like to highlight, though; but if Yomi is saying something differently from what you would have said, then it would be nice to know as well.

Cheers.

anonimi:
I only understand too well his stating the ovbvious that tithe even in the old testament has no correlation with what is being done today in the first part highlighted yet he goes on, in the next sentence, just as you have been doing on this thread to state something contrary to his earlier biblical quote. Maybe you are the one who needs to re-read his post.

@anonimi,

There's no need to become disaffected about this issue. We (sleekmag and I) were directly sharing views and he actually called my attention to something in my submissions where he did not agree with me, and I subsequently looked into it - before he summarised his view on the same thing I had been stating consistently for ages:

        1. sleekmag called my attention on the 10% issue

        2. my response to help resolve his query

        3. sleekmag's summary and inference

        4. his commentary which you earlier quoted.

The point is that it does not appear to me that he was driving for a 10% to be given every single time; and the reason why I feel that way is because of this line in that same reposte you quote from:

          _______________________________________________________________
            [size=14pt]"[/size]You give your tithes not because you hope to prosper in return, but in true
            obedience to him and his work. There are people give much more to God;
            God doesn't need my blessings i am the one that needs his hands. >snip<
            Tithing is not compulsory, giving is not compulsory, but you can't love
            without giving. If we claim we love God, our tithes shouldn't be a big deal.
            God so loved us that he gave his son to die for us.[size=14pt]"[/size]
          _______________________________________________________________

If you feel I had misread him, that;s okay. I just thought that it was unwise to have missed his summary and assumed he was one of those who come under your fire of 'fraud'.

Regards all the same.

@affee,

affee:
Sister pilgrim how body?

What has been happening?

I just returned to the forum yesterday.
I was begining to get addicted to the forum and Oga was not happy about it.

My sista, you be waya! Kai! I was wondering if I did something wrong to have made you disappear on me like that! I had no clue you were on recess. Body dey kampe. . . lovely sunshine for my area today. Oga knows wetin 'i[color=Black]m[/color] want. . so it is understandable that his love for you cannot be rivalled by anything for anything or anybody. We are very much in agreement!

No mind me. . I'm just so relaxed and joyful today. Busy afternoon soon, but I'm catching all the rest before then. Grace and enjoyment to you.

@anonimi,

anonimi:
I believe it might be useful at this time to re-introduce this drama sketch, that covers most of the issues in this tithe fraud that continues unabated in our churches.

Lol, I wonder how those who are so opposed to this matter cannot contain themselves and must resort to this unfortunate antics just to drive their point. It even gets more interesting on a sad level when such antics involves directly displaying irrational disaffection such as this one:

anonimi:
As a sequel to my last article debunking Mr. Enoch Adejare Adeboye’s claims about tithing, Believers are not subject to the Tithe, I hereby present a court scenario in which the General Overseer of the Redeemed Christian Church of God stands before the Great Judge of all the earth, the Lord Jesus Christ, on this subject.

The ridiculous simply has no bounds in the above. First, so many people have reached a concensus that believers are not "subject" to anything at all - you cannot make a few things "mandatory" for anyone while arguing against this single issue. Incase you missed it: God is NOT COMPELLING anybody to give anything! Resorting to this sad level taking your arguments to a personal level and pretending to be Jesus Christ is not only unhealthy, it is ungodly.

Besides, whoever was pretending this drama here is only demonstrating the same bitterness we often find from those who are vehemently opposed to tithing. The bitterness does not stop at simply sharing and discussing (even arguing), but now it has to degenerate to personal attacks under the claim that you were presenting the G.O. before the Great Judge of all the earth! Have such people never read such warnings as:

         ●  Romans 2:1  -   For wherein thou  judgest another, thou condemnest thyself.
         ●  James 4:11   -   Speak not evil one of another, brethren.
         ● 1 Peter 2:1    -   Lay aside malice, guile, hypocrisies, envies, and all evil speakings.

Hmm, slander is not a light matter O. It does not bless the slanderer. . . and if all this effort was the style and machinery you seek to "deliver" your readers, you have even made your case worse.  Just because someone does not agree with others on a subject does not mean we should descend so low to ungodly levels in order to express our views.

Just thought you should try and keep these things in mind. It is well.

@anonimi,

anonimi:
This does not correlate with what followed from you in the same response:

Maybe you should pause for a while and gather your thoughts clearly to stop further muddling trying to justify the unjustifiable for CHRISTians.

It appears you did not seek to even understand sleekmag before arriving at your opinions. Perhaps it could be that you were only interested in seeking out just where you might find something to complain about, and that is why you did not even bother to read his thoughts collectively.

@A_K_O,

Okay, I see your point. While appreciating that we may all be trying to say the same thing with different terminologies and from various perspectives, it appears that some of our inputs may need to be well qualified so other readers do not mistake them for other matters.

[quote author=A_K_O link=topic=181454.msg2925896#msg2925896 date=1223673922]This doesnt make their body immune to satanic attack such as sickness. The reason is that it is actually the spirit that houses the Holy Spirit which is housed in the body.[/quote]Two things are presented to us here:

(1) First, I think it would be hard for anyone to find a case where a Christian was demon-possessed in the Bible. But let us understand the issues here:

         the unregenerate person  --  demon-possession

         the born again believer     --   demon-oppression
                                                  demon-depression

The difference between both is that possession can happen to the unregerate; while for the born-again, the attacks of diabolic powers is from the outside and not from the inside of that person.

Believers can be oppressed and harrassed mentally; as well as afflicted bodily; however, in the case of the unregenerate, the demons actually can take possession of them and hold them against their power, operating from inside as well as from outside them.

[quote author=A_K_O link=topic=181454.msg2925896#msg2925896 date=1223673922]However, a christian can be demon-influenced.[/quote]True - that's another way of putting it; and thats why I noted that we all might be saying the same thing in different ways.

[quote author=A_K_O link=topic=181454.msg2925896#msg2925896 date=1223673922]Examples, Judas betraying Jesus, Peter not wanting Jesus to be crucified.[/quote]I think Judas' own case was different, for he was never once in Scripture held to be a believer or born again. Why do I think so? Because none of the others were evaluated the way the Lord saw through his religious cover:

          'Jesus answered them,
           Have not I chosen you twelve,
           and one of you is a devil?' [John 6:70]

He was, of course referring to Judas (verse 71).

@A_K_O,

[quote author=A_K_O link=topic=181454.msg2925578#msg2925578 date=1223669433]Yes it is possible.

When a person gets born again it is their spirit that gets born again, not their soul and body.

So the devil can still influence and/or dwell in their soul and body.[/quote]I'm just wondering: could you help us understand this issue a bit more - any cogent examples from the Bible?

sleekymag:
I also have a personal experience. There's what we call rhema, and that's what you get when you study God's word personally and ask for the Holy Spirit's help for revelation. I came to an understanding that why should i try to justify myself with God's word, seeing only the less tasking part by giving God 1% as tithe (as in Num 18:24-29) because the levites did that, or follow Deut 14:22-29 where the tither ate part of his tithe with members of his family, then gave a portion of it to the less privilege and the levite (pastor), both of which scenarios are very convenient to the tither and less tasking. God owns it all, all i have, all you have. What is 10% that's too much to give God everytime? I came to a deeper revelation that it's God's mystery for prosperity. You give your tithes not because you hope to prosper in return, but in true obedience to him and his work. There are people give much more to God; God doesn't need my blessings i am the one that needs his hands. The underlying motive for rationalising which is more appropriate to give is because we want to look for an easier way out. Tithing is not compulsory, giving is not compulsory, but you can't love without giving. If we claim we love God, our tithes shouldn't be a big deal. God so loved us that he gave his son to die for us.

@sleekmag,

I am humbled by your very simple and rich input - you've opened my eyes to a few things and also added to my knowledge: not because I'm inclined to tithing, but more because you captured the very pulse of the whole discussion in very few words. God bless and enrich you more.

Hi @aruzuoke,

I know how you feel - it can be very tough if you've been searching for that long.

However, would it help if we suggest a few alternatives? Here:

(a) your environment:
 Globally, unemployment figures are rising; but don't look at the gloomy picture.
 Rather, see if there's something you can do to apply yourself outside your
 immediate job-search environment.
 suggestion: have you tried looking outside Nigeria?
                     have you tried looking at other types of jobs?

(b) your credentials:
 Globally, people are upgrading their qualifications and even migrating to other
 career types; people take a few courses to be relevant to what's in the market
 where they find themselves.
 suggestion: would you consider looking outside the arts (humanities, mass comm.,
 philosophy, etc?) perhaps you may even want to retain these, and only add something
 that would pep up your CV along such lines? could I recommend a few:
                   MIS - Management Information Systems
                   PI systems - Philosphy Information
 The latter (PI) is a very broad field today and many people who know how to market
 their credentials definitely have some openings that they can take on - especially
 when it would help them build a career from scratch.

(c) your attitude:
 I will not promise you anything, but rather be glad to help in any little way I could
 - espcially with feedback and research. However, you've got to be positive in your
 aspirations, no matter how daunting the situation may appear.

 (d) your social network
 don't let the grammar dampen your prospects - it's just about getting the right kind
 of friends and connection who can muster around you and offer pointers that may
 prove invaluable to you for the rest of your drive. For starters, I could connect and
 try to point a few issues, news, trends and issues which you may find interesting. .
 and of course, I have you in my prayers.

I have good hopes for you: don't lose your courage - you only need to look beyond where you are, and seeking some pointers here was a good start. God bless you much.

@sleekmag,

sleekymag:
You didnt say exactly that but inferred tithe could also be 1% or any other % with your various statements some of which are . .

I understand your point now; and yes, I am persuaded that tithe is not strictly 10% at every single instance. The general idea that we carry in our minds is that tithes = 10%; and many encyclopedias you consult will put it like that.

However, a few reasons why it doesn't seem so to me include, but not limited to:

(a) the case of the "tithe of the tithes" in Neh. 10:30

(b) the widow's mites in the treasury in Luke 21:2-4

(c) the personal "proportion" each person makes (1 Cor. 16:2 - AMP).

Particularly in reference to (c) above, some have argued that it has no reference whatsoever with any measure or 'proportion'; and I've actually seen this in some commentaries. After having tried to look at the verse myself, I'm persuded that it is referring to that which is in measure according to one's prospering.

Anyhow, whether we call it particularly "tithes" or not, it does not negate the fact that there are other types of giving in the NT - and I share that view with you. The one thing I try to do is not clobber anyone with my convictions and at the same time arrive at making this subject a waste. Certainly, people do not want to call their giving by the name "tithes", and there are no worries there. However, is that conviction underlined by the idea that the subject of tithes was not taught anywhere in the NT? If that is what is crux of this matter, it has been the reason why I have been trying to help others take a closer look at where in the NT it was actually mentioned.

Paradise. . || . . frustrations.

That's a case of sweet-bitter.


How do we set about fostering a healthy, successful marriage in the experience of life's difficulties? I mean, some people start out in love, enjoy the marriage for a while, and it seems like the last train station was missed along the way. Money? Ego? Compromises? Choices and tastes? How do couples tackle such practical issues - especially when the global credit crunch has really come home to some marriages?

>snip<

@JJYOU,

JJYOU:
@ pilgrim 1. that is the problem i have with academic christians. there is no need to be ashamed my dear sister. God will only ask from what He gave.

I enjoyed your testimony, and I've learnt so much from many experiences. I only look back at how silly I was, laughing at those who knew what they were doing. . and parading myself as an "academic" Christian. To my own detriment, I was none the wiser, and the person we laughed at was blessed beyond his own expectations. Did my "academic" argument help my own wisdom? Far from it - but since then I have learnt my lessoons.

God bless, bro.

@sleekmag,

sleekymag:
So that means the children of Isreal never tithed 1% but 10%.

Aye. But I don't remember saying that the children of Israel gave 1%.

sleekymag:
1% got to the High Priest, while the remaining 9% went to the levites for their own upkeep, since they had no inheritance among the children of Isreal. I hope you understand this point of view.

I understand you; although that is not what appears to be there. Here is a simple outline which I have already give:

(a) all the children of Israel - gave 10%

(b) Aaron, his sons and daughters received what was offered for the ALTAR

(c) the Levites received 10% from Israel as reward for their service in the
TABERNACLE (Num. 18:31)

(d) what Aaron and his house received was used by them all

(e) what the Levites received was taken and part of it heaved
Num. 18:29

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(f ) the offerings which Aaron and his family received was far more
and included:
~ heave offerings
~ the most holy things, reserved from the fire
~ every meat offering
~ every sin offering
~ every trespass offering
~ the heave offering of their gift
~ all the wave offerings of the children of Israel
~ every thing devoted in Israel
~ every thing that openeth the matrix in all flesh
[Num. 18: 8-15]

~ in short, they were described as "all the heave offerings of the holy things" (v. 19)


(g) that which the Levites got and used for themselves was
the heave offering of the tithes of Israel [Num. 18:24]

It was from the heave offering of the tithes of Israel that the Levites presented their own heave offering.

sleekymag:
Num 18:26 explains it.

26 "Speak thus to the Levites, and say to them: 'When you take from the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them as your inheritance, then you shall offer up a heave offering of it to the LORD, a tenth of the tithe. (NKJV)

Okay, and that "tenth of the tithes" was simply 1% of the total value - or you would have to ask yourself how much of the total value was taken into the chamber of the house of God (Neh. 10:38).

sleekymag:
So it means they had to collect the mormal 10% first from the children of Isreal, then give a tenth of it, to the High Priest, it's this part that's the heave offerings.

Lol, maybe I'm making a serious mistake here: please help me - where does it say that they gave any part of that portion to the High Priest? or are we just assuming it so, and mistaking what belonged to the Highpriest as belonging to the Levites?

Having said all that above, we now can look at what you mentioned in relation to the heave offerings which the Levites received, so we don't confuse them with that which belonged to Aaron, his sons and daughters:

sleekymag:
It is that part that is called the "heave offerings", which in essence meant that the levites also had to tithe what they got, which in this case is 10% of what they got from the children of isreal.[/font]

Okay, but hang on a minute and let's look at the heave offering from the Levites in particular. You would notice that it is not only the Levites who gave the heave offering; but that particular offering was made by the whole nation of Israel. Let me show you a few:

Numbers 15:18-20
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them,
When ye come into the land whither I bring you,
Then it shall be, that, when ye eat of the bread of the land,
ye shall offer up an heave offering unto the LORD.
Ye shall offer up a cake of the first of your dough for an heave offering:
as ye do the heave offering of the threshingfloor, so shall ye heave it.

Numbers 18:24
But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer
as an heave offering unto the LORD,
I have given to the Levites to inherit:
therefore I have said unto them,
Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.

What does Num. 18:24 tell us? For those who always argue that tithes must always be from someone's income, I've got news for you: the Levites who also offered their tithes had no inheritance! They got nothing from their agricultural labours, because they had no inheritance from all that Israel got!

Secondly, we notice that this "heave offering" which they received from Israel was not called the tithes of the Levites. No. It was from that tithes/tenths of Israel that they also took out just a small portion - and that small portion is only 1% of the total value of the tithes of Israel's heave offerings! Read that verse again - there God says it was the "the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD" - and the Levites were to take just 1% of that 10% and offer as their own heave offering.

If we don't see this point clearly, it would lead to the idea that what was left was only 9% and not 90% - which was what you came to:

sleekymag:
And when you look at it from the high priest's angle, represents 1% of what the children of Isreal gave. The other 9% was what the levites kept for themselves.

There it is, bros. We know we cannot speak of 90% in this case - and as you have astutely noted, speaking from the highpriet's perspective (which evaluated all the gifts of Israel and not just the Levites), there could not be a 90% left. That is why we read of the "tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house" (Neh. 10:38). This latter verse just quoted, tells us that it was not 10% that was taken into the chamber - it was rather 1% (the tithe of the tithes) that was taken into the treasury, by the hand of the Levites and not the hands of the sons of Aaron.

Cheers.

Hi @sleekmag,

I think you're a very keen observer - and I was hoping that someone would notice that very issue and point it out for more discussions. However, much as I appreciate the critique of my inputs, let me point out why I was persuaded that the Levites offering was less than 10%. Please bear with me:

sleekymag:
@pilgrim.1
[font=Lucida Sans Unicode]If you read that scripture (entire chapter) well, you'll see that the norm in those days is that whenever the levites get tithes from the children of isreal, they also had to give "a tenth of that tithe" to the high priest, which in this case, was Aaron and his sons.

Okay, but just hang on a minute here and let me point out that we are mixing something here.

There are two distinct types of the offerings of Israel in Numbers 18, or shall I say two distinct features of their offerings. Please understand that when you mentioned Aaron and his sons, you're dealing with a very, very different aspect here - which is the first part. That part was never given to the Levites; but rather it was Aaron's and his sons for ever (Num. 18:8).

Let me bring this round neatly:

      (a) the first aspect was to the service of the sanctuary of the altar:
            this was not assigned to the Levites specifically (see Num. 18:3 & 5)

      (b) the second pertained to the service of the Tabernacle of congregation:
           it was this second aspect that the Levites were asked to care of -
           (see Num. 18:6 & 23)

Now, when Israel offered, there were two aspects of the "heave offerings" -

      (a) theaspect that was given to Aaron, his sons and daughters forever
           (please see Num. 18:11 ~~
                     'And this is thine; the heave offering of their gift,
                      with all the wave offerings of the children of Israel:
                      I have given them unto thee,
                      and to thy sons and to thy daughters with thee,
                      by a statute for ever: every one that is clean in thy house
                      shall eat of it.'

      (b) however, it is the second aspect of the heave offering that
            the Levites got [Num. 18:21 & 24]

                       'And, behold, I have given the children of Levi
                       all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance,
                       for their service which they serve,
                       even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation

                       . . . But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer
                       as an heave offering unto the LORD,
                       I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said
                       unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have
                       no inheritance'

I apologise, but it is not my intention to be tedious here about these matters. I thought it may be helpful to draw these distinctions now before we make huge mistakes in future discussions. Now, noticing these two aspects and their distinctions, it is not surprising that the apostle also distinguished between those who served on the Altar and those who served in the Temple (tabernacle), as we see in 1 Corinthians 9:13 ~~

                       '(A) Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things
                             live of the things of the temple?

                       (B) and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?'

The apostle never confused them, and neither should we at any point.

But what is the purpose of all this? Simply that we should never make the mistake of assuming that both the Levites and the house of Aaron shared the same thing from the same service - no they did not. And we have seen the clear issue above. If there is something not clear above, please call my attention to it and let's critique it together.

Bus Driver Saves Baby from Devil Dog

By STAFF REPORTER
Published: 09 Oct 2008
_____________________________________________________________

A HERO bus driver who saved a baby from the jaws of a devil dog said today
he didn't stop to think – he just did it. National Express driver Abdul Khan, 43,
saved the life of infant Amir Santos who was dragged 60 yards by the ferocious
beast named Asbo.

A group of men rushed to help the 20-month-old baby boy, who was ripped out
of his mum Samsam's arms. Neighbours and Abdul tried to drive the bull terrier-
type dog away by hitting it with a fire extinguisher and sticks.

Abdul said: “I am a parent myself so I didn’t stop to think about it. My colleagues
backed me up too. I am just glad the child is OK.”

The dog attacked four people yesterday in Mitcham, south London, and was
later caught and shot by armed police.

Young Amir suffered leg injuries during the attack and was discharged from
hospital last night. Amir’s dad Edvaldo, 25, said the tot was tossed “like a rag
doll” for ten minutes near their home in Mitcham. He said: “My son is lucky
to be alive.”

Two other people – including another National Express worker – were also
injured in quick succession by the dog. A man in his 40s suffered facial injuries,
and has now been discharged from hospital, while a woman in her 50s is still
being treated for leg injuries.

The dog’s female owner, aged 29, was arrested for having a dog “dangerously
out of control”. She was later bailed.
_____________________________________________________________

source: The SUN News

Ordinary Folks Around Us

The people to be celebrated today are the ordinary folks we often take for granted. How often do we stop to think about what would happen if these folks were not there to help our communities in the first place – or if no one would step into their shoes to offer their services?

Yes, I’m talking about celebrating the people we meet everyday –

     The Bus/Train drivers

     The Pilots

     The Police – men and women like other civilians

     The Refuse collectors

     The Newspaper agents

      Librarians

. . . these people do their simple things in extra ordinary ways; because without them, our communities would be quite difficult to manage.

JJYOU:
God will never ask of you what He has not given you. some people by God's grace give away upto 60% of what they get and they are at peace.

Ahh! I am ashamed of myself. I have actually seen someone whotrusted God that much that he gave 100% of his first two months salary in a new job. He had nothing for another 3 months and was laughed at by many of us ('us' - because I was also stupid to laugh at him ). Yet, not in a single instance did this brother get upset and castigate anyone of us in return. He never told us what he did that for, or why he chose to do so.

But what was our surpise that the fourth month, he happened to just give a helping hand for a role that he was not assigned in the company that employed him. No one knew he had such technical knowledge (for he had applied as a customer service adviser). After he complete that job, and charged nothing in return, management asked him to head the entire IT unit in that company! I won't forget the day he walked into the midweek service on a Wednesday and shared his testimony - with the letter in his hand: his pay had jumped by 250% (from £7 am hour to nearly £18 an hour)! One who was laughed at as a customer service advisor was taken from that humble position to a be Project Manager of the unit that handles Juniper software! Of course he was qualified, but he started out humbly.

JJYOU:
go read this 2 books and be more informed. Whose Money Is It Anyway? by John MacArthur and BEYOND TITHING - MURRAY STUART

I shall find those books to read - someone recommended them a forthnight ago but I've been too lazy to look for them.

Bless.

Now, my second reference:

2. I am not one of those who assumes that Jesus never said anything about tithes in the NT, or that He was against tithes, or even disfavoured it, or accused anyone who tithed as a manipulator, a thief, a rogue, or a false teacher! I've always stated that God nowhere asked us to be so driven that all that occupies us is the brignad language we use against other people!

When we look at any way in which He talked about tithes, we see that the man who boasted about it did not get any appraisals from the Lord:

             Luke 18:9-14

             'And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves
             that they were righteous, and despised others:

             Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee,
             and the other a publican.

             The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,
             God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners,
             unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

             I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

             And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much
             as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying,
             God be merciful to me a sinner.

             I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than
             the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased;
             and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.'

What a profound lesson for each one of us! There is nothing wrong with either paying tithes or fasting - and the Lord did not put the former down because of these elements. The problem why that man missed the issue was because of his self-righteousness and spiritual pride (vv. 9 & 14). The point is clear:

                  (a) paying tithes or fasting does not make one more righteous
                  (b) but despising others can ruin your own fasting and tithing!

This is why Jesus never once condemn anyone for either fasting or tithing; rather, the lesson there to learn is that we ruin everything when we let ourselves to think we are too important and clever to disdain other people and then despise them so much that we call them names to our own detriment!

Shey we like to despise others and call them names? Well, the lesson is there - disdaining other people actually robs us of any blessing we seek from God. The one we dispise may even go down to his house rejoicing in God's justification, than the one who is restless to despise others. That lesson is why I refrain from using bedevilled language on others - it never blesses anyone.


Now notice here two important things in that passage:

            ~ paying tithes

            ~ fasting

Cough! Are these matters not also found in the LAW?!? Somebody help me here. Do we not read in the LAW about:

            ~ fasting [Lev. 16:31 cf. Ezra 8:21]

            ~ tithing [Deut. 14:22]

Today, while many people have no quarrels with fasting (which was mentioned in the LAW), they have a serious problem with tithes (also mentioned in the LAW). Since it has always been argued that Jesus came to fulfill the law so that we are no longer obliged thereto, none of those people argue that we should no longer observe fasting! The problem is that we often rush to conclude issues without paying attention to what exactly God has said about something.

I'm just wishing to share these matters as simply as possible. People who argue that Jesus never said anything about tithes should calm down and go back and look carefully.

Bless.

@Fifio,

FifiO:
@Pilgrim.1

But seriously, if we neednt say "tithes", why insist that what we give is a "tithe" which should not be a given %. Why not just say "giving" then it wouldnt matter how much it is, periods, what substance(cash, or kind) etc.
Really,Please do tell?

My persuasions can be outlined as simply:

1. I am not one of those who assumes Jesus nor the apostles NEVER said anything about tithes. I have referred to this issue several times already but no one is listening and all I get are "dancing around" issues. Let me say it one more time:

[list][list][quote author=pilgrim.1](1) But the word “tithes” or “tithing” is not found in the NT.

This is one of the basic mistakes people use as arguments for not understanding the subject. However, the words ‘tithe’ (Matt. 23:23), ‘tithes’ (Luke 18:12 & Hebrews 7:6, 8, 9), and ‘tenth/tenth parts’ (Hebrews 7:2 & 4) appear in the NT as referenced (using the KJV). Of these references, the first (Matt. 23:23) shows that it was not condemned even by the Lord; while the second set of references discuss this issue on various principles.[/quote][/list][/list]

So again, I cannot assume that the word "tithes" did not feature in the teachings of the Lord Jesus or the apostles.

Secondly, if we look at what the Lord Jesus said specifically, would we be saying that He had done away with the elements that He mentioned there? Let me quote those verses yet again:


        [Matthew 23:23]
        'Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
        for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin,
        and have omitted the weightier matters of the law,
        judgment, mercy, and faith:
                      (A) these ought ye to have done, and
                      (B) not to leave the other undone.'

Now, let's all calm down and reason. May I ask us a simple question here: these elements - "judgement, mercy and faith" - are they what the Lord Jesus referred to as "the weightier matters of the LAW" or not?

My submission is simple: if we assume that the Lord has overthrown and rubbished the LAW, we can as well dispense with the notion of judgement, mercy and faith. To argue against it is what He started out in that verse with: "HYPOCRITES" - and that warning is for us all.

Secondly, did the Lord Jesus ask anyone to stop offering tithes at all? If we assume that He was against tithes, please what did He mean by this statement:

                      (A) these ought ye to have done, and
                      (B) not to leave the other undone.

If He was saying that tithes are not important, then we could infer that he was saying that the other matters were not important. We can not divide some of these matters as acceptable and the others as non-existent!

If "these" (ie., the weightier matters of the LAW) are no longer effective, then also the "other" (which are the tithes) are no longer effective as well.

However, if we love "judgement, mercy and faith" (the weightier matters of the law), did the Lord Jesus not also say that we should NOT LEAVE the "other" UNDONE?!?

Can someone tell us what He meant by "not to leave the other undone" - what are the elements included in the "OTHER"?


There are other places where the Lord spoke about tithes O. . . but e be like say we are so captured with the idea that every mention of tithes is a FALSE DOCTRINE that we never get to see how the Lord Himself treated the subject.


I apologise - it was never my intention to change anyone's mind swiftly so many times. This is why I would like to simply leave this matter if I'm not helping anyone henceforth. God bless us all.