@obatoro,

obatoro:

pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg2884413#msg2884413 date=1222968020:

The amazing thing is that even Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek without even the LAW. Does that not ring a bell to us? Let's not be put off by what men have argued back and forth to turn tithing into. The one beautiful thing we see is that in the NT, God does not "command" or "force" or "cajole" anyone to tithe. If the heart is willing, He "receives" them from the tither who knows indeed that tithing preceded the Law. It was by faith Abraham was moved to see something in his day that many of us take for granted, even though we often read Hebrews 7:8.

Regards.

I will like to know where the highlighted qoute of yours is in the bible.

(a) If God does not "command" or "force" or "cajole" anyone to tithe, then where do you want me to show what He does not do? Unless you have a verse where He actually "commands, cajoles and forces" anyone to tithe, then it may be helpful for you to share with us.

(b) "If the heart is willing" - here is a verse: 2 Corinthians 8:12

For if there be first a willing mind,
it is accepted according to that a man hath,
and not according to that he hath not.

(c) He "receives" them from the tither - that has already been shown from Hebrews 7:8 . . please scroll up and see where I quoted the AMP version to clarify the issue.

pilgrim.1:

@obatoro,

I will like to know where the highlighted qoute of yours is in the bible.

(a) If God does not "command" or "force" or "cajole" anyone to tithe, then where do you want me to show what He does not do? Unless you have a verse where He actually "commands, cajoles and forces" anyone to tithe, then it may be helpful for you to share with us.

(b) "If the heart is willing" - here is a verse: 2 Corinthians 8:12

For if there be first a willing mind,
it is accepted according to that a man hath,
and not according to that he hath not.

(c) He "receives" them from the tither - that has already been shown from Hebrews 7:8 . . please scroll up and see where I quoted the AMP version to clarify the issue.

Before the Law it was not by force (Abraham gave tithe willingly and only once not every month or year from his personal income

Under the Law, it was by force or they will be cursed according to Mal 3:8-10, now that we are no longer under the Law why are some pastors still enforcing it as if under the Law using Mal 3:8-10 calling children of God robbers etc.

Giving should be as led by the spirit not according to law, tithing 10% of total gross income or net income every month under compulsion

@sarmy,

Tithing should really not be based on what people have turned it into. We all have our persuasions here and there about this subject; but at the end of the day, we know that tithing did not originate with the Law, nor does the Law abrogate what it did not originate. The beautiful thing about any type of giving in the NT is that no one is forced to give anything. As the heart is willing, so we can find grace to do so.

sarmy:

Before the Law it was not by force (Abraham gave tithe willingly and only once not every month or year from his personal income

Under the Law, it was by force or they will be cursed according to Mal 3:8-10, now that we are no longer under the Law why are some pastors still enforcing it as if under the Law using Mal 3:8-10 calling children of God robbers etc.
Giving should be as led by the spirit not according to law, tithing 10% of total gross income or net income every month under compulsion

@pilgrim
I see obatoro and sarmy have been engaging you on the issue of this false doctrine that as gained popularity amongst pastors for obvious reasons, i wouldn't bother to respond to your post again as i see it has been properly addressed but you keep dancing round in circles and quoting verse out of context to argue basesless points. The fact still remains that a one off free will giving of ten per cent of the spoils of war can never be used to justify tithes as it obtains today, they are two totally different issues. The reality on ground is that christians are becoming increasingly aware that they are being deceived into paying tithes and it is bad for the body of christ when we realise that those that are supposed to be our christian leaders are reaping us off using God's name. My position is that if any pastor wants to preach about tithes he should tell his flock the truth about what the bible says about (i.e that it is food meant to be eaten in God's presence e.t.c) the pastor should also not forget to tell them about Heb 7: 18 which describes it as a weak and useless law.

pilgrim.1:

@sarmy,

Tithing should really not be based on what people have turned it into. We all have our persuasions here and there about this subject; but at the end of the day, we know that tithing did not originate with the Law, nor does the Law abrogate what it did not originate. The beautiful thing about any type of giving in the NT is that no one is forced to give anything. As the heart is willing, so we can find grace to do so.

God bless you my brither!

pilgrim.1:

@sarmy,

Tithing should really not be based on what people have turned it into. We all have our persuasions here and there about this subject; but at the end of the day, we know that tithing did not originate with the Law, nor does the Law abrogate what it did not originate. The beautiful thing about any type of giving in the NT is that no one is forced to give anything. As the heart is willing, so we can find grace to do so.

God bless you my brother!

KunleOshob:

My position is that if any pastor wants to preach about tithes he should tell his flock the truth about what the bible says about (i.e that it is food meant to be eaten in God's presence e.t.c) the pastor should also not forget to tell them about Heb 7: 18 which describes it as a weak and useless law.

Amen!

pilgrim.1:

@sarmy,

Tithing should really not be based on what people have turned it into. We all have our persuasions here and there about this subject; but at the end of the day, we know that tithing did not originate with the Law, nor does the Law abrogate what it did not originate. The beautiful thing about any type of giving in the NT is that no one is forced to give anything. As the heart is willing, so we can find grace to do so.

I really like this forum, in my church it seems 'am alone as I can not discuss this with anyone, they seem not to understand or too afraid to talk about it, I feel like leaving the church but where do I go as most churches are the same, I almost turning away from Christianity when my pastor said quoting from mal 3:8-10 that it's compulsory for christian to tithe if not THEY WILL NOT GO TO HEAVEN as no robbers will make it to heaven.

Now every member must have tithe number where they record this and also being checked by pastor to know those who are not paying tithe. What should I do, pls advise

@sarmy
if i were you i would not only engage the pastor and other church members or why tithing is unscriptural and not meant for christians, i would also leave the church. You should not allow any man to intimidate you into doing what God deed not request from you. I have done a lot of extensive research on tithes and i would be glad to give you links, bible passages and verses that establishes that tithing as we have it today is completely unscriptural or at best a fraudulent manipulation of what the bible says.

KunleOshob:

@sarmy
if i were you i would not only engage the pastor and other church members or why tithing is unscriptural and not meant for christians, i would also leave the church. You should not allow any man to intimidate you into doing what God deed not request from you. I have done a lot of extensive research on tithes and i would be glad to give you links, bible passages and verses that establishes that tithing as we have it today is completely unscriptural or at best a fraudulent manipulation of what the bible says.

That is the problem, it seems all penticostal churches are using this same method, if only I can find a church that is truthful in this regard I will be very glad, I love to give but I hate being manipulated especially when it's contrary to God's absolute will. The church is well known all over and the senior pastor well respected but it confuses me why he kept preaching this method of giving, a yound convert left our church after the message and never returned. Thanks

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

@pilgrim
I see obatoro and sarmy have been engaging you on the issue of this false doctrine that as gained popularity amongst pastors for obvious reasons, i wouldn't bother to respond to your post again as i see it has been properly addressed but you keep dancing round in circles and quoting verse out of context to argue basesless points.

Well, we all have our convictions about tithing - and while so many people call it a false doctrine, I'm not one to flag up a "popularity" placard describing it so. often, people take the position that tithing is evil; and when they have made up their minds that such is the case, what is the point trying to ask such people to read God's Word over the matter? If anyone wants to give - do so without castigating anyone else. If anyone does not want to give, save your money and don't let bitterness creep into the heart simply because others are giving. Why call it a "false doctrine" because of your personal disaffection when God did not describe it as such?

In fact, when we look closely, we are constantly reminded of one fact: tithing did not originate with the LAW; and that being so, how could the LAW put an end to what it did not originate? Hence, quoting Hebrews 7:18 to stretch it to mean what it does not say is missing the whole point. Abraham did not wait for any "law/commandments" before he gave tithes of all (Genesis 14:20 and Hebrews 7:4). I don't read anywhere in Scripture where God described tithes as "false doctrine", and I'm not going down that road to accuse the Bible of what many "Christians" are too quick to allege. If men have turned it into something else, does that mean that everything the Bible says about it is "false"?

Let me illustrate: there are MANY other things that people have turned upside down in practice:

         ~ the Lord's Supper

         ~ baptism

         ~ agape feast

         ~ Christian giving

. . . and so many others. For instance, I have heard a pastor say the same thing as sarmy pointed out: which is that if a Christian does not give tithes and offerings, such a believer would go straight to hell - quoting 1 Cor. 6:9-10 (thieves shall not inherit the Kingdom) - because Mal. 3:8 where people have robbed God! Rather than start a quarrel with that pastor, I opened my Bible and assured my heart that he was wrong - but just because that particular pastor was wrong did not mean therefore that tithing was a "false doctrine!" It is just the same thing where people have abused the Biblical teaching of BAPTISM or "Christian giving" - do the abuses mean that baptism is a "false doctrine"?

Instead of trying to push one's personal agenda, humilty requires us to be careful to not accuse God's Word of what it does not teach. As far as I know, men may teach wrongly about Biblical subject - but that does not mean that the subjects in themselves are "false doctrines". If by default someone does not like giving, the best they could do is save their money and don't give anything. Why get upset because others are giving? God does not force anything upon the Christian, nor should any Christian force his excuses to accuse God's Word of what it does not call tithing: for all I know, God's Word never once referred to tithing as a "false doctrine". To accuse such a thing against what God's Word says is simply to demonstrate a stray thought.

Regards.

@sarmy,

sarmy:

I really like this forum, in my church it seems 'am alone as I can not discuss this with anyone, they seem not to understand or too afraid to talk about it, I feel like leaving the church but where do I go as most churches are the same, I almost turning away from Christianity when my pastor said quoting from mal 3:8-10 that it's compulsory for christian to tithe if not THEY WILL NOT GO TO HEAVEN as no robbers will make it to heaven.

It would be quite a sad expereince if one does not know why they have believed in Jesus Christ in the first place. Believing in Christ does not mean we are not going to face problems - there were plenty of problems Christians faced in the days of the apostles. They also enjoined us to be ready to face serious problems as well ("unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake" - Php. 1:29).

My brother, challenges will come to you as a Christian - both from within and from outside the Church. I'm not the only one who has faced so many unprintable things for simply believing in Him - and you certainly will not be the only one encountering difficulties as such. However, our relationship with the Lord is not predicated on what anyone does or says: we are responsible to know exactly why we have believed; and when facing problems of any kind, we can be sure that He is faithful.

sarmy:

Now every member must have tithe number where they record this and also being checked by pastor to know those who are not paying tithe. What should I do, please advise

The simply advice I can offer is this: whatever you decision you take, try to never engage anyone in a confrontation. Such a reaction is counter productive and you not come away the happier of the party - see God's Word on what it says about "contentions" and you will understand my point. If you want to leave a church, there's a place where you can find fellowship without feeling pressurized by an assigned tithe number. We are not called to be religious police against anyone - and as you consider this issue prayerfully, God will guide your footsteps.

pilgrim.1:
see God's Word on what it says about "contentions"

A few:

~ Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom. [Prov. 13:10]

~ The beginning of strife is as when one letteth out water: therefore leave off contention,
before it be meddled with. [Prov. 17:14]

~ A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes. [Prov. 18:16]


God bless you.

obatoro:

God bless you my brother!

@obatoro, God bless you more.

@pilgrim
I am sorry to have used the word false doctrine, i think i would have stated it better if i described it as fraudulent doctrine. You keep on hammering on Abraham's one off tithe as an excuse to justify tithing, was there any injunction to repeat what Abraham deed? course there were several things abraham used to do such as burnt offerings which we don't practise today. That is apart from the fact that abraham did not tithe from his personal wealth or income. (He was a very wealthy man before he gave a tenth of his spoils of war) Aslo tithing under the law which was commanded was designed for the levitical priesthood becos the levites priest were not allowed to work or own property. this system or priests don't exist today. The type of tithing which is being practised today (compulsory ten per cent of all income) is completely unscriptural hence the reason i called it a false doctrine. Biblical tithing never included money, it was always farm produce and the tither and his family ate out of it and also shared with the less priviledge (deut 14: 22-29). The levites were only included for the singular reason that they were not allowed to own property( today our pastors own the choiciest properties i wonder why they don't keep that injunction of not owning property) My dear, my submission on tithing is that if a pastor wants to introduce tithing in his church, he must do it the way it was done in the bible which was farm produce, once a year or once in three years, the tither and his family must be allowed to eat from it, also the less priviledge and the pastors must not be allowed to own property, any other form of tithing apart from these is highly unscriptural hence a false doctrine. I hope you undedrstand now why i refered to it as fasle doctrine. Biblical tithes is true doctrine but the mordern church version of it is definitely a false doctrine

@KunleOshob,

Thanks for your concerns. Let me show you a few things that often amazes me with Christians who are at liberty to accuse God's Word of what it never said.

KunleOshob:

I am sorry to have used the word false doctrine, i think i would have stated it better if i described it as fraudulent doctrine.

Rather than push your default agenda of calling it anything as such, it would be better to share with us where you find God describe tithe itself as either "false" or "fraudulent". Nothing else matters, for if you cannot find such a verse saying such, I think the rest is mere entertainment in your arguments.

You see, Kunle bros, I'm not the sort of person who goes haywire just because some people are abusing Biblical doctrines. People have said a lot of things and driven their mouths and hearts to say things that they shouldn't - and it seems we shall remain on this page forever on the same thing. So, to make it brief, just be so kind to show us where God called tithing the same thing you are too driven to call it: "false" and "fraudulent". That will do for now, thanks.

pilgrim / kunle,

I think we 're almost saying thesame thing, Pilgrim, like Kunle said there are some other things existing before the law of moses and yet we can no longer practice them today like sacrifice, I think the name Tithe is not the issue but the context of tithing is the problem.

Using the name Tithe AS IF STILL PRACTICING ORDINANCES OF THE LAW is wrong, we can give 10%, 80% or 100% no problem, it's good, there are rewards in giving but using mal 3:8-10 to support giving is contracry to Apostles' doctrine.

Galatians 3:10-13

"10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree"

Brothers and sisters

Heb 7:5 makes it clear that in the old testament tithe was required as part of the law and Galatians 3:10-13 says we can no longer continue with the practices of the law,

5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

@sarmy,

sarmy:

Using the name Tithe AS IF STILL PRACTICING ORDINANCES OF THE LAW is wrong, we can give 10%, 80% or 100% no problem, it's good, there are rewards in giving but using mal 3:8-10 to support giving is contracry to Apostles' doctrine.

Lol, if the name "tithe" is the problem, what then is the name of the 10%, 80% and 100% you are proposing?

See, my dear brother, the issue is simple for me: it does not worry me in the least what it is called in Scripture - God called it "tithes", and that is enough for me.

The problem with many people is that they often want to strain so much to make tithes a matter of the LAW, when they know very well that it preceded the LAW. How do they play round this fact? They make excuses as to say that:

    (a) Abraham gave tithes only once:  so?
         how many times should he have given before God can call it "TITHES of ALL"?

    (b) he did not give from his own income: so?
         did God call it stealing or borrowing or anything else other than tithes?

    (c) we cannot repeat what Abraham did: really?
         then we should stop having FAITH!

I just wonder how miserable our excuses for not wanting to follow scripture can be sometimes! If Abraham did not give tithe, or if God called tithes "evil", or "FRAUD", or "FALSE". . . then I would see their point. As long as God has not called it any such, why do we often make such statements just because of our own perception of what men have made it into?

Reading from what the three of you are typing, it seems you all are saying the same thing. This is not a competition on who is right. And for the record, a layman would think it is, just from reading you guys back and forth.

That said, if your pastor tells you that you will go to hell because you did not pay your tithe, don't bother going to that church again. I am yet to read in my Bible that paying tithe is the recipe to get to heaven. You might pay tithe till you are broke and be a mean, wicked person. Will you go to hell or heaven?

It is true that the pastors in Nigeria has turn tithing into another thing. Let me give you an example, here in my church, we have a seven year plan and it will cost about 1.2 million dollars. After the pastor presented the plan to us, did he ask us to fund the vision? No. They have been putting away money for this vision about 5years ago. Even before we got this idea. I know in my Nigeria church, they will start to ask us to do triple offering and pledging and stuff.

May God bless us all. We all don't know the answer to every thing and it will be a great thing to just let it go sometimes.

Offline: pilgrim, I sent you an offline.

sarmy:

Brothers and sisters

Heb 7:5 makes it clear that in the old testament tithe was required as part of the law and Galatians 3:10-13 says we can no longer continue with the practices of the law,

5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Dear sarmy,

    (1) Levitical priesthood is based on the Mosaic Law - yes? Yes.

    (2) The concept of TITHES came before the Levitical priesthood - yes? Yes.

    (3) Tithing as a whole did not originate with the Levitical priesthood - No?  NO.

    (4) The Levitical priesthood put an end to TITHING - yes? NO.

Therefore what? Therefore this -

              (a) that Levites took tithes by the Mosaic Law is clear (Heb. 7:5)

              (b) but the Melchizedek priesthood is not based on LEVI (Heb. 7:6)

Hence, what has happened to the order of priesthood according to MELCHIZEDEK? Why do we always miss that one in every argument? Why are people to quick to remain on LEVITICAL priesthood and forget all references to Melchizedek?

So, here's what the Bible says about Melchizedek in Hebrews 7:8 - which I already quoted from your own recommendation of the AMP version:

      (a) "Furthermore, here [in the Levitical priesthood] tithes are received
             by men who are subject to death;

      (b)  while there [in the case of Melchizedek], they are received by one
             of whom it is testified that he lives [perpetually]".

It doesn't seem to be clear why people are against tithes - and all excuses about Abraham's tithing don't make any sense. What did the Bible call it - "FRAUD"? The only thing anyone can do is this: if you don't want to give, don't do so. Why accuse others simply because you cannot give tithes?

theopops:

Offline: pilgrim, I sent you an offline.

My brother, sorry for the delay. I'll take a look - so many YIM popping up (especially from those "greeting" me with the caterwauls), that's why I decided to come here and cool off. Cheers.

Thanks all, I'm learning from your posts BUT

If we are to practice it like Abraham did then

   (a) Abraham gave tithes only once:  so?
         how many times should he have given before God can call it "TITHES of ALL"?

(Christian should pay tithe not necessarily every month as required in Churches today, and should be FREELY as one purposed in his heart, not by necessity for God loves cheerful giver.

     (b) he did not give from his own income: so?
          did God call it stealing or borrowing or anything else other than tithes?

(we may decide to give tithe not necessarily from regular monthly income BUT FROM OTHER SOURCES)

     (c) we cannot repeat what Abraham did: really?
          then we should stop having FAITH!

(pilgrim, we can not repeat everything Abraham did. On the issue of tithe, he gave it out of free will, not commanded by God, Isaac did not practice it, Jesus & the Apostles no record of them paying tithe to anyone. Not everything Abraham did can be copied/paste, Jesus is the author and finisher of our FAITH

There is nothing wrong for children of God to give either offering or tithe like Abraham did but asking for it as IF UNDER THE LAW with concequences for not giving using mal 3:8-10 I disagree, I hope we all agree on this. Thanks

pilgrim.1

Have you read Hebrews 7 up to verse 12
In case you have not, please note that verse 12 says:

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

The law discussed and described extensively in the first 11 verses is that of tithes. You can check again.

Furthermore, when Christ said He came not to change the law but to fulfil[/color] it, what do you think He meant
By His death at Calvary, Christ fulfilled the law. How do you fulfill a contractual engagement or commitment? What happens after you have fulfilled the contract or commitment?
Paul deals extensively with this concept in his Epistles and letters to CHRISTians. Please study them carefully.
If something is not required and someone, no matter his "claimed level of annointing" harasses and intimidates people to do that which is not required, such a person is simply a [color=#990000]fraudulent, 419 person. QED.

To Tithe or not to Tithe? My answer - TO TITHE

Sometimes, when trying to explain, if the Holy Spirit doesn't open your eyes to see deep things in God's word, you'll be easily caught up into thinking tithe is old-fashioned or an old testament doctirne. Hebrews 7 says it all if u allow urself to be taught by the Holy Ghost, and not that u just want to use your knowledge to decipher these mysteries.

Jesus Christ came to coonect us to the Abrahamic order of blessings, whether Gentiles or Jews.
Below is an excerpt culled from my response to a similar thread. Take Note KunleOshob.


One opinion i noticed some have is seeing tithing in today's modern world as obsolete and a tool with which most of these men of God use to get at the finances of their members. I have read what other posts say concerning this isue and have undergone personal study as well, and came to a conclusion that not tithing will not make you go to hell, but it is God's commandment for prosperity (although we know you can still prosper outside of that).

Heb 7:1-28 talks about the new testament position on tithes. Heb 7:8 says that "And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth (that's Jesus Christ). Abraham, the first tither, gave tithes to Melchizedek, King of Salem (a man with no record of ancestors nor descendants, nor beginning of days nor end of life) Heb 7:1-3.

It goes on to say that Jesus Christ is a priest after the order of Melchizedek (vs 17). Priesthood changed from d levitical priesthood to that of the order of Melchizedek (vs 11). With the coming of Jesus Christ, he came to give us a better testament (vs 18, 19, 22), because in the old days priests that were not holy themselves (vs 27) offered tithes, sacrifices and offerings to God .

Jesus Christ is the one we pay tithes to today, he is the high priest who receives the tithes from us. Even in the old testament, God never came down to earth to collect the tithes himself (apart from the Melchizedek/Abraham incident), it was those priests and levites that collected them, and it was used for the work of the Lord, for the welfare of the priests, as well as for distributing to the widows and orphans etc. Jesus himself also commanded us to go into the world and preach the gospel to all the ends of the earth (Mt 28:18-20), he commissioned some into ministry, which we have today in churches and as they do God's work, the same blessings tied to tithing in the old testament, is the same order of blessings available to any tither today.

So those making cases, saying that tithes are no longer necessary since they were specifically meant for the levites, one of the twelve tribes of Isreal in the old testament, need not say so. Also remember Gal 3:13, 14. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith (vs 14).
Also verse 29 of girl 3 says that "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise".

Remember the genealogy is Abraham - Isaac - Jacob - (His twelve sons, the twelve tribes of Isreal). So how are we absolved of paying tithes in today's modern world, when Jesus Christ has connected us to the Abrahamic order of blessings?

Also remember girl 3:13, 14. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith (vs 14).
Also verse 29 of girl 3 says that "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise".

Sorry i meant Galatians

@ Kunle Oshob from ur earlier post

The type of tithing which is being practised today (compulsory ten per cent of all income) is completely unscriptural hence the reason i called it a false doctrine. Biblical tithing never included money, it was always farm produce and the tither and his family ate out of it and also shared with the less priviledge (deut 14: 22-29).

Though in the old testament, they gave tithes of their farm produce and flocks etc, that's because the major occupation in those days was farming and animal husbandry.
Deut 14:22 says "You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year.

In today's world, what is the common denominator that people use to measure their increase? It's in their finances"money".

Even Deut 14:24,25 talks about the conversion to money if the place is far. However even today, people still pay their tithes with increases of their farm produce, and its not wrong. At least i witnessed it when i was serving (NYSC) in one of the eastern states a few years ago. So money a a type of tithe is not an issue here.

@pilgrim
I already explained my definition of fraudulent and false tithes to you, we have biblical tithing and we have modern day corrupted version of tithing, i won't say more.

@sleeky mag
You people keep dancing round in circles and quoting the bible out of context. In deuteronomy 14 : 24& 25 you quoted, you deliberately left out verse 26 which said what you should use the money for. The money was meant to still purchase food and drinks (including wine and strong drinks which tithe preaching churches preach against) it also said you should eat the food(tithes) in God's presence. Now if tithe had been meant to be money, you would not have been required to use it to purchase food items talkless of consuming it yourself. Sleeky mag the fact that you deliberately omitted verse 26 which counters your wrong position on tithes mean that you know the truth but you just like pilgrim refuse to accept it. I don't think i would be available to keep on arguing back and forth on something that is soooooo glaring

@sarmy,

sarmy:

Thanks all, I'm learning from your posts BUT

If we are to practice it like Abraham did then

(Christian should pay tithe not necessarily every month as required in Churches today, and should be FREELY as one purposed in his heart, not by necessity for God loves cheerful giver.

(we may decide to give tithe not necessarily from regular monthly income BUT FROM OTHER SOURCES)

I appreciate your persuasions, and very much also your calm spirit in this dicussion. Thank you for keeping a cool head. That said, at least we now find a common ground on this matter - as someone had said earlier, we may not realize that we have been saying similar things. The point is this: tithing should not always conjure the idea of law, force, cajoling, and compulsion in our minds. Although, some people have made it sound like that is the case in many churches, it should not drive us therefore to claim things against the Word of God itself.

sarmy:

(pilgrim, we can not repeat everything Abraham did. On the issue of tithe, he gave it out of free will, not commanded by God, Isaac did not practice it,

Let me share something intricate with you here. I did not advocate for a cloning of Abraham's experience; and I have always spoken about the "principle" of faith demonstrated by the patriarch rather than a literal robotic application.

On the issue of tithe, true - Abraham gave out of his free will (and I'm so glad you have mentioned this point that many people often miss out). What moved this man to offer without any LAW? We understand that he had such faith that enabled him to grasp something that we take for granted today when Melchizedek met him. We don't read that Melchizedek met him every year or periodically; but the one time that august visit happened, Abraham gave tithes of all (Gen. 14:20). Even so, that one act alone affected his own progeny - so that we read that even Levi (who was not yet born) also paid tithes to Melchizedek through Abraham (Heb. 7:9-10).

What about Isaac? Melchizedek did not met him after that visit to his father Abraham. However, there are two things to note here: (a) Isaac is Abraham's direct seed - his own son; and would we assume that what he did in Genesis 14:20 would not have affected him as well if it could affect his progeny several generations later? (b) We don't read that Jacob actually gave tithes; but the fact that he mentioned it to testify that he knew its importance actually should make us realize that men of faith understood much more about it than we are wont to argue endlessly about it (Gen. 28:22).

sarmy:

Jesus & the Apostles no record of them paying tithe to anyone.

(a) Would you say that the Lord Jesus would be teaching others to tithe but refuse His own disciples to do what He taught others (Luke 11:42)?

(b) If the apostles were so upset about tithes as many of us advocate, why then would the apostle Paul point out its veracity in Heb. 7:8 - "but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth"?

(c) Again, the apostle points out that God will not force anyone to obey what He has ordained - even though it is true that He has ordained that those who preach the Gospel should live out of it: 1 Corinthians 9:7-14 (read and study verses 13 and 14 especially) .

sarmy:

Not everything Abraham did can be copied/paste, Jesus is the author and finisher of our FAITH

I'm not asking that we be clones of Abraham. The one thing I have often stressed is that we can follow the principle of FAITH that characterised this man's life - even as the Bible puts it in Galatians 3:7 ~~

"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith,
the same are the children of Abraham."

Often, I have stressed that it is by faith (and not by LAW or force or compulsion) that Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek. When we follow such faith, what then is the arguement against what the Bible teaches on this subject?

sarmy:

There is nothing wrong for children of God to give either offering or tithe like Abraham did but asking for it as IF UNDER THE LAW with concequences for not giving using mal 3:8-10 I disagree, I hope we all agree on this. Thanks

Hmm, I have often asked those discussing this subject to look away from the idea of LAW. When people base all their argument of tithes on the LAW, they will never be able to see what came before the LAW and how that one act of Abraham's faith affected even his unborn generations. It beats me how people can bind their hearts and minds and make so much of the LAW of tithes without realizing that tithes did not originate with the LAW. Like I have sated again and again, if anyone does not want to give, instead of being angry and cause their mouths to sin against the Word, simply save their money and sidon look. No wahala in the matter.

God bless you.

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

@pilgrim
I already explained my definition of fraudulent and false tithes to you, we have biblical tithing and we have modern day corrupted version of tithing, i won't say more.

Good to know you can't say anymore. The Bible did not describe tithes as "fraudulent" or "false doctrine", regardless of what men have turned it into. Just for people to react and let their passions fly to make statement that are unwarranted by God's Word simply demonstrates what they don't know.

KunleOshob:

@sleeky mag
You people keep dancing round in circles and quoting the bible out of context. In deuteronomy 14 : 24& 25 you quoted, you deliberately left out verse 26 which said what you should use the money for. The money was meant to still purchase food and drinks (including wine and strong drinks which tithe preaching churches preach against) it also said you should eat the food(tithes) in God's presence. Now if tithe had been meant to be money, you would not have been required to use it to purchase food items talkless of consuming it yourself. Sleeky mag the fact that you deliberately omitted verse 26 which counters your wrong position on tithes mean that you know the truth but you just like pilgrim refuse to accept it. I don't think i would be available to keep on arguing back and forth on something that is soooooo glaring

What is sooooo glaring is your fastidious argument based upon the LAW. When you open your eyes and study why Hebrews mentioned the case of Abraham and Melchizedek that came BEFORE the Law, then you will come closer to what you have been missing. People who make such arguments upon the Law have a serious problem seeing beyond it.

Enjoy.

sleekymag:


Jesus Christ is the one we pay tithes to today, he is the high priest who receives the tithes from us.

This reads like any traditional African religious mantra- pay sacrifices to a god as thanks or to seek a favour from it. BTW, the Old Testament writings contain very similar teachings and parctices of our traditional religion.
Please note that[b] Jesus Christ does not need and cannot collect your tithe or offering[/b]. What He recommends is giving to the needy after taking care of your family. You can give to your church to arrange and maintain the place of your meeting as well as spread the gospel the missionary way of old as opposed to the televangelism of self-glorification that goes on today. Remember that God does not dwell in buildings so all those claiming to build churches for God are doing their own personal will for bragging rights- I better pass my neighbour characteristic.
You may want to read this comment and the 40 responses:

The Lie About Giving To God
Yomi Says: Today, I am publishing another classic from the old Yomi Says. This article was first published on August 23, 2007. I am sure it will bless honest seekers.

Here we go! Every few days, a pastor gets on the pulpit and tells people to package their offering and give their gifts to God. We hear the “give to God” line so often that no-one needs bother argue this. I am a pastor. I can pull out a hundred references of when I have made similar statements over the years.

But how true is it?

How true is it that when you give an offering at the church service, you are giving to God? Do we have instructions in the new testament to give “offerings” to God?

We already know the lie about tithing. No sound student of the Bible ought to ever be held to ransom with the “You will be tight if you don’t tithe” thingie in its various shades. Or that “You are cursed with a curse if you don’t tithe“. That one is quite clearer and easier to discern.

FACT 1: There are no commandments to give to God under the new testament
Search, and find one if you can.

FACT 2: There are no examples of giving to God under the new testament
Again, search, and find one example if you can.

FACT 3: All commandments and examples of giving under the new testament are about giving to the needy
I’ll give you those, if you don’t mind:

Acts 2:44-45
Act 11:28-30
2 Corinthians 8, 9
1 Timothy 6:17-19
There may be a few ommissions, but note that none of the above is about “giving to God” (a very vague term, as I am not sure what God would do with money if anyone ever gave Him any). The Church gave to meet human needs. It wasn’t about cathedrals and (often useless) television outreaches and the like.

It Takes Money To Spread The Gospel?
I daresay that if every individual who claims to be saved will get personally involved in witnessing and discipleship, we will discover how inexpensive it is to spread the Gospel, as we would have no need for most of the countless “Christian” TV programmes we have on air today. Of course, then that worn out line (”It takes money to spread the Gospel”) used by preachers to get their sheeple to give “to God” would die out.

Question: So, is it wrong to ask for offerings in our churches?
No; not necesarrily. It would depend on what the offerings are used for and what people are told. Churches often meet in halls today, for example; so it may be okay if we agree to collect offerings to support paying the rent, or helping the needy, or some other good cause.

Let’s just be sure not to tell the people that they are giving to God.

Church members are not giving to God. Often they are giving to the pastor/bishop/G.O. (we all knew that one; didn’t we?), to NEPA (PHCN), to the council officials, to the church staff, to the television station airing their TV outreach, to the landlord, and the like. None of it ever gets to God (that’s obvious; isn’t it?).

That “giving to God” line gives the pastors an often unfair leverage they would not ordinarilly have. Who wouldn’t feel guilty about not “giving to God“?

Conclusion
Next time a “man of Gawd” tells you to give to God, just know it is not true. Even if you do choose to give. And honestly, the choice is yours. Don’t be bullied into giving.

This entry was posted on September 13, 2008 at 3:32 pm and is filed under Bible Teaching and False Teachings and Teachers. You can feed this entry. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

40 Responses

Source: http://yomisays./2008/09/13/the-lie-about-giving-to-god/

@anonimi,

Since you're only reposting Yomi's argument against his own vexations, I should treat accordingly.

anonimi:
How true is it that when you give an offering at the church service, you are giving to God? Do we have instructions in the new testament to give “offerings” to God?

'Now concerning the collection for the saints,
as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.'
[1 Corinthians 16:1].

2 Corinthians 8:3-5.

anonimi:
We already know the lie about tithing.

The Bible does not call tithing a "lie". Those who use their over-zealous sanctimony to accuse the Word of what it does not say need to go back and read it for what it says.

anonimi:
FACT 1: There are no commandments to give to God under the new testament
Search, and find one if you can.

1 Corinthians 9:13-14
"Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things
live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at
the altar are partakers with the altar?
Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which
preach the gospel should live of the gospel."

Even when God ordained it in the NEW TESTAMENT, men will argue every which way to refuse and reject it. The simple thing is that it is one of the things the Lord ORDAINED in the NT, but He will not force it upon anyone to bend their necks to it.

anonimi:
FACT 2: There are no examples of giving to God under the new testament
Again, search, and find one example if you can.

'For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God:
but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.' [Luke 21:4]

1 Corinthains 9:13-14

anonimi:
FACT 3: All commandments and examples of giving under the new testament are about giving to the needy

This is laughable! At the very same instance that many people argue that it is NOT a "commandment", they are the same people that are yelling about "all commandments" about giving in the New Testament! Can these people try to be consistent and let us know where they stand?

Meanwhile, in Luke 21:1-4, we find an example of someone giving not about giving to the poor; rather, it was the poor that gave into the "offerings of God" out of her penury (v.4).

anonimi:
I’ll give you those, if you don’t mind:

Acts 2:44-45
Act 11:28-30
2 Corinthians 8, 9
1 Timothy 6:17-19

well, 1 Corinthians 9:6-14 was not about giving to the poor - giving in support of those who are minsiters. Eh, before you hola back - read it again and find that in verse 14 it is said that the Lord hath ordained it so! Not every example in the NT was about giving to the needy.

anonimi:
There may be a few ommissions, but note that none of the above is about “giving to God” (a very vague term, as I am not sure what God would do with money if anyone ever gave Him any).

This is like arguing like a child. The offerings given both in the Old and New Testament were addressed as unto God (which is what is meant by "the offerings of God" in Luke 21:4). See also:

Joshua 6:19 - "all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron,
are consecrated unto the LORD"

It was God who said directly in Malachi 3:8 that His people had robbed Him in tithes and offerings.

Exodus 35:5 - "Take ye from among you an offering unto the LORD:
whosoever is of a willing heart, let him bring it,
an offering of the LORD; gold, and silver, and brass"

I'm sorry if I sound quite firm in this matter; but what is a put off is people claiming they know that such and such cannot be found in Scripture and therefore use that sad inference to refer to tithes as a "lie" or whatever else God never called it. It pays to simply say "I don't know", than pretend you actually know and yet duck some very important references that directly address your misgivings. If you don't want to give, simply save your money - even though God "ordained" it in the NT, He will not force it upon anyone, because both in the OT and NT these matters are said to be on the basis of "a willing heart" - nobody will cajole or compel you to do what you don't want to do.

anonimi:
The Church gave to meet human needs. It wasn’t about cathedrals and (often useless) television outreaches and the like.

You don't dictate for others what their givings and offerings should be used for. Give your own, and if you can't do so, save the argument.

anonimi:
It Takes Money To Spread The Gospel?
I daresay that if every individual who claims to be saved will get personally involved in witnessing and discipleship, we will discover how inexpensive it is to spread the Gospel, as we would have no need for most of the countless “Christian” TV programmes we have on air today. Of course, then that worn out line (”It takes money to spread the Gospel”) used by preachers to get their sheeple to give “to God” would die out.

I guess it takes spit to print Bibles? Run vehicles and pay transportation? Or minsiter to the physical needs of other people in very difficult places? Lol, these worn out complaints will increase - for those who never settle down to see what God says.

anonimi:
Question: So, is it wrong to ask for offerings in our churches?
No; not necesarrily. It would depend on what the offerings are used for and what people are told. Churches often meet in halls today, for example; so it may be okay if we agree to collect offerings to support paying the rent, or helping the needy, or some other good cause.

^{>"No, not necessarrily". . ."support paying the rent". . . bla-bla<} [rolls eyes]

anonimi:
Let’s just be sure not to tell the people that they are giving to God.

Then write another "bible' and remove those verses where you find the answers. Enjoy.

I really dont see where the argument is??

Isnt this glaring in the bible?

only that we miss it due to the fact we dont read it

Tithing should be of freewill.

Nothing spiritual in it

Just like the circumcision.

pilgrim.1:

@anonimi,

Since you're only reposting Yomi's argument against his own vexations, I should treat accordingly.

'Now concerning the collection for the saints,
as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.'
[1 Corinthians 16:1].

I am sure you do not equate the saints to God or do you

pilgrim.1:


The Bible does not call tithing a "lie". Those who use their over-zealous sanctimony to accuse the Word of what it does not say need to go back and read it for what it says.

I notice you conveniently skipped responding to my earlier post on verse 12 of Hebrews 7 and the importance of Christ's fulfilling work vis-a-vis the OT laws, including that of tithes which was operational until His death and ressurection. Still thinking about what response to spin

pilgrim.1:


1 Corinthians 9:13-14
"Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things
live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at
the altar are partakers with the altar?
Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which
preach the gospel should live of the gospel."

Even when God ordained it in the NEW TESTAMENT, men will argue every which way to refuse and reject it. The simple thing is that it is one of the things the Lord ORDAINED in the NT, but He will not force it upon anyone to bend their necks to it.

I believe it is also clear enough in your above quote that what you give is for those who minister and NOT God as the 419, fraudsters would want us to believe and put people in a guilt trap. You should check your other NT quotes to ascertain if the people were asked to give/gave to God or Jesus Christ specifically and not to fellow brethren in need as well as minister's basic needs (as opposed to luxury).

pilgrim.1:


'For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God:
but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.' [Luke 21:4]

There are at least two things about the above quote.
First, you realise that burnt offerings/sacrifices were being offered to God under the OT and it was precisely the Levites who were offering bad quality sacrifices at His altar that the rebuke in Malachi was principally addressed to. You should read Malachi from Chapter 1 please. Thus the "offerings of God" should be understood in that context before Christ fulfilled the law as pointed out earlier with His ultimate and final sacrifice.
Secondly, Christ was teaching a key principle about giving, which is that it is not the absolute amount you give that matters but how it relates with your capacity to give, hence the widow was praised while the rich man was scolded. This same tenet is stated in Proverbs 11:24 "There is that scattereth, and yet increaseth; and there is that withholdeth more than is meet, but it tendeth to poverty."

I hope you do understand that I and others who oppose requiring/requesting tithes of CHRISTians do not oppose giving to church activities so long as they are in line with the teachings, practice and standard set by Christ and his Apostles as recorded in the NT.
Shalom.